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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 8:39:38
In reply to Re: Just a question, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 20:27:59
Thanks, Squig! Did I miss something? It seems like most of these articles say, "benzos cause dependence". Of course, we all know that. The point of the articles that I posted was that sure, you become dependent on benzos, but very few people become "addicted", in the sense that they have drug-seeking behavior and just take more and more. So anyway, I'm genuinely confused. Maybe I just misunderstood; but I do appreciate the articles.
Different topic:
I couldn't find it, but somewhere on this board Quintal tells his/her experience with benzos, which include apparent addiction, and if I read it right, the idea that Quintal might have done some stuff under the influence of benzos that he/she would not have done-like stealing. All this followed by a less-than-kind abrupt withdrawal. If you can find the post, read it. It is a terrible story and I can see how Ashton being an advocate for tapering would sound really good to Quintal.
By comparison, benzos have helped me from being so agoraphobic that I would cry if I were 20 miles from my house or my car was being worked on...finally, it would take 30 minutes at work to be up the nerve to walk across the office floor to the mailroom. When I found an SSRI helped more than the benzos (because I was depressed, too), I dropped the benzo dosage abruptly. I stil take benzos daily, at a low dose, with AD's. The combination has worked wonderfully in terms of me being functional-and when I've reduced the benzos to zero 9which I can do without any withdrawal, and have done so several times throughout the years), back comes the agoraphobia. So the doc says, "you'll probably have to take a benzo at low doses with your AD for the rest of your life"-and I don't like it, because I don't want to take ANY meds, but I also don't want to spend the next 30 years hiding under my sofa with my cat.
Here's my point: reading Quintal's and my story, you can see why we might view both benzo use and Dr. Ashton differently. If a person thinks that benzos are a dangerous med, by all means, avoid them-but please, for those of us who's lives have been enhanced by them, please don't fuel our already guilty feelings about taking them.
Posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 9:22:27
In reply to Re: Just a question, posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 8:39:38
bassman,
I have seen many debates on the meaning
of addiction versus dependence, and I have
participated in far too many of them. In the
heads and hands of medics who have not been
educated in linguistics or philosophy, the
debate is a lost cause. I will leave it at
that.Later today, I will be happy to search your
story and Quintal's about your benzo experiences.I agree with you, that benzos are particularly
helpful in agitating ADs, for example PROZAC and
others where a side effect is a motor or neural
excitability, like akathisia, or insomnia.One thing i did not mention which is probably very important for benzo tolerance is how *often* the drug is prescribed-- i.e. on a daily basis or on occasions of panic or crisis. I think you are more likely to become dependent on a daily prescription. But as one my friends said, there are worse things than becoming dependent on a drug which is better than not being on that drug.
Yes, there are worse things-- coming off abruptly or without the aid of another drug. :-)So, here are the things that should be watched out for from person to person:
TYPE OF DRUG (length of half-life, anxiolytic and/or anti-convulsant strength)
INTERACTION WITH OTHER DRUGS or ALCOHOL or other
BENZOS (benzos and some ADs can make you very lethargic, and each can potentiate the other)DOSE (can calm you or put you to sleep or be lethal or create cognitive problems)
DURATION (how long you have been taking it influences its efficacy and withdrawal potential)
WITHDRAWAL (requires knowledge of the drug and monitoring of the patient, and assessment of whether it is necessary to get off the drug; if the withdrawal leaves you with protracted symptoms it may be better to stay on indefinitely; also the process of withdrawal may be aided by another long-life drug to prevent things like seizures or other permanent disabilities.)
AGE (older people metabolize all drugs at a different rate and the same dose may be stronger for them)
INTER-DOSE WITHDRAWAL ( that is not in the books); it's an experience i gave a name to, when my need for a Xanax accelerated with time. From the minimal "as needed" dose, i started to get severe anxiety and panic unless I took more and more.
The relief became shorter and shorter within each dose, so the amount escalated -- you get the picture.There are many articles on other issues, e.g.
fractures in the elderly, etc., many physical side-effects during and after stopping-- but I am just posting what I think is really important.I think that we have to keep in mind people who live in dreadful circumstances, of domestic abuse, war-torn environments, deaths or crises in families, loss of home or job, terminal illnesses, etc. where any sedative is common sense. But at the same time, it is good to be educated about the effects of benzos, and not pretend that they are not addicting. Heck, I'm pro-heroin for depression and anxiety, if only it were legal.
Squiggles
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 6, 2007, at 9:47:02
In reply to Re: Quintal, posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 4:11:05
Hello
>As far as im concerned Quintal has outed himself with this thread as being completely anti-med despite what he claims and i will treat his posts accordingly from now on.
>
> As trolling.No, I don't think thats fair -- poor Q can't defend himself because he's blocked! I don't think he is particulary anti-med - no more so that me, for instance. He postively encouraged me to try my oxazepam but which I was petrified of doing (I'm petrified of poisoning myself, for some reason). I think that if Q were anti-med he wouldn't have done this. And he's clearly read up on the subject matter and has a balanced viewpoint, IMHO. I think he's a very clever and wise individual -- I honestly thought he was alot older than his 24 years.
But we are all only human, and obviously our past experiences colour our viewpoints to some degree, which is perhaps what happened with Q. This isn't a bad thing - we can try and pass on our experiences to our fellow human beings, which is the purpose of this board isn't it? I wish I'd discovered this board prior to my taking any sort of AD - I'd be in a much better place to make a balanced decision. And I think thats what Q is trying to do here, create balance. We are all entitled to our viewpoints.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by valene on February 6, 2007, at 10:01:59
In reply to Re: Quintal » dbc, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 6, 2007, at 9:47:02
I would like to clear the record and this is my last post on the subject.
I never said I did not like Heather Ashton . Ever. If you go back, Squiggles as you said you were in post to Bassman, maybe you can see that just 2 months ago, in December, 2006, I posted to someone who had been yanked off 60mg. of valium in 5 days.
I suggested to that person to read Heather Ashton's material on benzodiazpine withdrawal. I think she has done some *great* work in helping people and education, etc.
I think that I was misunderstood, in that someone thought I did not like Dr. Ashton. In my post the UK website was the topic of discussion. Heather herself has nothing to do with that web site. The one part of the web site that I do like is that they copy her material, and post her manual, of which I have a copy and have used.
Thanks, and peace,
Val
Posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 10:22:27
In reply to Re: Just a question, posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 9:22:27
The thing you call "INTER-DOSE WITHDRAWAL" is well-known-so much so that there is a joke that if you want to know what time it is, ask someone who is taking Xanax.
I complete agree with you about benzos causing dependence in many individuals and people should be cautioned about stopping abruptly...as is the case with many drugs. But if all drugs that should be tapered off of were taken off the market, we'd be treated for a lot of ills with M&M's.
I'm not sure a degree in philosophy is needed to understand the difference between dependence and addiction-and I also think it is important to understand the difference; which is huge.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2007, at 11:58:11
In reply to Re: Quintal, posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 4:11:05
> and i will treat his posts accordingly from now on.
>
> As trolling.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action. If you wish, you can appeal this decision to him.
namasté
deputy gg
Posted by Declan on February 6, 2007, at 12:56:12
In reply to Re: Quintal, posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 4:11:05
I have not read this thread, but it seems like others, including (of course) ones about benzos. It is possible to have mixed feelings about meds.
I think benzos are (relatively) safe (I have such low standards), and the idea that they shrink your brain is cool with me too.
How's that?
Posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 12:56:19
In reply to Re: Just a question, posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 8:39:38
I'm searching for the posts that describe
your story and bassman's... sorry, i'm
overwhelmed with the multitude...I see you are interested in mind-altering
substances. I didn't think there were
any hippies left. You must be either very
young or very old. :-) One thing about
these plants-- they are very time-consuming.
And wherever they take you, there you are,
and sometimes remain.Squiggles
Posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 13:14:27
In reply to Re: Just a question, posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 10:22:27
> The thing you call "INTER-DOSE WITHDRAWAL" is well-known-so much so that there is a joke that if you want to know what time it is, ask someone who is taking Xanax.
>Hahaha you're correct and this is true. This is why whenever i start titillating down a dose even if its knocking 1mg off my dose i switch dosing times and mess up my internal benzo circadian clock. A little discomfort seems to go a long way as far as knocking off entire mgs of xanax in less than a week.
Posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 13:16:38
In reply to Please be civil » dbc, posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2007, at 11:58:11
Sorry, this nasty flu i have is making me grumpy. Im usually more polite i swear :)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2007, at 13:44:08
In reply to Re: Please be civil ) gardenergirl, posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 13:16:38
And I'm sorry about your flu. Hope you're feeling well soon.
namasté
deputy gg
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:38:15
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by bassman on February 4, 2007, at 15:19:28
Hi Bassman,
>I've been reading her site for years.
Just to clarify, benzo.org.uk is NOT Dr. Ashton's site!!!! She would disagree with many of the things written on that site. Dr. Ashton provided the benzo withdrawal manual, she doesn't own or control the rest of the website.
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:45:50
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 4, 2007, at 19:45:21
Hi Squiggles
Clonazepam is available in the UK under the brand name Rivotril. Traditionally, it has been used to treat epilepsy, although tolerance frequently occurs, substantially limiting its usefulness.
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:47:31
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2007, at 18:54:15
Hi PJ :)
Despite taking Valium, you are still extremely anxious. Do you not think that you have developed tolerance?
Love
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:52:33
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 4, 2007, at 20:47:07
Hi DBC
>Also benzo.uk.org is an anti benzo site
Indeed it is, but it is not Heather Ashton's site. There are many things written there that she would disagree with.
>It says the titration period for 2mg of klonopin is 12 months! I mean really...seriously...thats absurd.
*Some* people would need 12 months. Her taper schedules are intended for people who have had particular difficulty withdrawing, not for everyone. If you read the Aston manual she provides a lot of useful information.
Regards
ed
Posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:02:59
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » dbc, posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:52:33
I've seen articles on clonazepam being
peculiarly difficult to withdraw from.
Anyway, to settle the matter, a statistical
comparison study with other benzos would
be helpful.According to my own experience, I believe
that this drug was made specifically for
convulsions (in searching its origin, i
recall it was made in Brazil) -- by whom
I don't know; but Roche marketed it first.I bet it has a really interesting history.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:16:28
In reply to Re: Just a question, posted by bassman on February 6, 2007, at 8:39:38
bassman,
i can't find the post that describes your
history -- the search on Dr. Bob's yields
too many. Would care to post it, or send
it to me personally?Squiggles
Posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 16:17:37
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:02:59
The short acting benzos (xanax in particular) are always cited as being the hardest to withdraw from and switching to a longer half life benzo is usually reccomended.
My experiance is the opposite and i can drop xanax dosage levels quick in comparison to klonopin or even ativan.
But as always empirical evidence > ancedotal.
Posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:29:21
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Squiggles, posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:45:50
> Hi Squiggles
>
> Clonazepam is available in the UK under the brand name Rivotril. Traditionally, it has been used to treat epilepsy, although tolerance frequently occurs, substantially limiting its usefulness.
>
> EdOK - take a look at Wikipedia which has an article on clonazepam in many languages, and a relative one on myoclonus -- which is what an outside dr. told me i had when i complained of seizures in withdrawal.
What is interesting about this drug is that it
is a *derivative* of the benzo class-- that must mean its chemical structure is different. Also,
listen up PEOPLE WITH COGNITIVE PROBLEMS on clonazepam-- it is an *amnesic*-- that means it interferes with memory.Worth a search.
Squiggles
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 16:38:45
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:02:59
Hi S
>According to my own experience, I believe
that this drug was made specifically for
convulsionsI wouldn't say it was made for epilepsy as such........it's more a case of marketing. Other benzos such as Valium are powerful anticonvulsants.
Regards
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 16:40:49
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:02:59
Hi S
>I've seen articles on clonazepam being
peculiarly difficult to withdraw from.I suppose the problem for some people is that they've been taking high doses (without even realising it) - given clonazepam's high potency.
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 16:42:47
In reply to Thanks » dbc, posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2007, at 13:44:08
I think there's been a LOT of misunderstanding in this thread. Quintal's original post seems to have been misinterpreted, leading to much anger and confusion :(
I hope everyone is ok.
Ed
Posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2007, at 16:45:13
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 16:17:37
You know a long time ago a pdoc when my thyroid required higher doses of a benzo till regulated and I quickly dropped the xanax when this happened said to me a benzo is a benzo and never told me one lasts longer the another hence I never ever had a problem switching from one to the other it's a lot psychological too at least with me. If I'm tolerant so be it. At least I won't get diabetes or the horrible withdrawal you read about with a lot of the ad's. That's my take on it and I agree a lot with bassman. Love Phlllipa
Posted by notfred on February 6, 2007, at 17:25:46
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! A lot of rocks! » ed_uk, posted by Squiggles on February 6, 2007, at 16:29:21
"Also, listen up PEOPLE WITH COGNITIVE PROBLEMS on clonazepam-- it is an *amnesic*-- that means it interferes with memory."
All benzos can interfere with memory, this is not unique to clon.
Posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 17:36:16
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! A lot of rocks!, posted by notfred on February 6, 2007, at 17:25:46
> All benzos can interfere with memory, this is not unique to clon.
Uh yeah, every last benzo is capable of causing your brain to stop encoding short term memories. Xanax is famous for this especially with recreational users who drink with it.
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