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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 2:12:50
In reply to Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 0:44:26
Sorry to butt in, but I'd just like to say I've been considering going back to Zyprexa to help with anxiety and insomnia after quitting benzos - it was recommended to me by a pdoc as an acceptable benzo substitute and I refused on grounds of its unreasonable long-term risks - it seems much more problematic than the benzos they were trying to force me off to my mind. After reading those threads you mention I'm now satisfied I made the right decision.
As I mentioned in reply to one of your earlier threads, cross tapering with a sedating antihistamine as I did may alleviate the insomnia and make withdrawal more bearable unless of course you are looking to go off meds altogether.
Q
Posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 5:05:48
In reply to Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 0:44:26
Hi kotsunega
I took Zyprexa for nearly four years. I am on my second attempt to come off this medication. Last attempt I got down to zero and held it there for 3 weeks but the rebound insomnia would not let me go. I tried to alleviate the insomnia with Seroquel and Zopiclone but neither worked. The insomnia was sending me manic (I am a manic depressive) and I had to capitulate. I also suffered anxiety and some akathisia. I returned to a dose of 10 mg whereas I was on a previous maximum of 5 mg.
Now, on my second attempt, I have so far weaned down from 10 mg to 3,75 mg (half of a 7.5 mg tablet). It has taken me 7 weeks to get this far. My previous attempt which I had to abandon took me 4 weeks to get from 5 mg to 0 mg which was much too quick. I estimate that my present w/d will take me a total of about 11 or 12 weeks - three times as long. At present my sleep is just adequate. My next step is down to 2.5 mg - this is where it starts to get tricky. I am worried about what my sleep will be like at this level.
I think it is irresponsible of Eli Lilley to market a drug with such withdrawal difficulties without having a printed w/d strategy enclosed in the box. But of course their strategy is to sell as much Zyprexa as they can. They are not interested in getting people off it even though there are compelling reasons like diabetes and weight gain for not taking this drug.
I would be interested to hear your withdrawal strategy.
ronaldo
> If you would like to comment on your experience in your attempts to quit zyprexa, I'd like to hear from you - and to learn what happened when you did attempt to quit zyprexa.
>
> How long did you take zyprexa?
> How many times have you tried to quit this AA?
> What were your (withdrawal) symptoms?
> What alleviated the symptoms, if anything?
> Were you eventually successful or not at all successful?
>
> So far, I have been unsuccessful in 2 previous attempts to quit the drug (the effects were so uncomfortable, I was driven back to taking zyprexa just to get some peace in my head). I am now making a 3rd attempt, while using a different approach. It has alarmed me to see in different threads on this board the number of people who, like me, have tried and failed to quit this atypical antipsychotic. So, I'm wondering just how many of us have tried and either succeeded or failed in getting off this drug. If you have, I'd like to know what the trick was that worked. If you haven't, I'd like to know that too - because I'm wondering if this is another "side effect" Eli Lilly has glossed over in its documented attempt to downplay any negative effects of using this drug. Thanks!!
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2007, at 10:06:49
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » kotsunega, posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 5:05:48
Glad I didn't take the recommendation of a previous pdoc and go on this med. Sounds horrible. Love Phillipa
Posted by blueberry1 on January 1, 2007, at 12:34:07
In reply to Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 0:44:26
Failed reducing dose a few times. Failed quitting completely once. Symptoms...bad sleep, no appetite, weight loss (good for some, bad for me), powerful anxiety, dizziness, fogginess, free floating fear, small noises make me jump.
5mg for 10 years. Recently 2.5mg for 6 months. Most recently 1.25mg for 1 month.
I am 36 hours into stopping completely. No probs yet except I slept horrible. From what I remember problems really start to kick in at about day 3.
Xanax. Trazodone. Amisulpride. Herbs. I'm ready to try anything this time. I absolutely despise zyprexa. If it is FDA approved for acute psychosis, fine. Just get the patient off of it fast when the psychosis is under control and then get them on mood stabilizer/benzos instead. But for anxiety? Sleep? Antidepressant booster? Absolutely not. The price one has to pay later in terms of metabolic screwups, neuromuscular abnormal movements, and withdrawal, is way to steep. Benefits, decent. Risks, extreme.
I think zyprexa is one of the most, if not the most, toxic substances a human can take.
Posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 12:52:34
In reply to Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 0:44:26
Hmmmm..... I'm just wondering what drug would make a good cross taper for Zyprexa withdrawal? Has anyone tried using Remeron for this purpose? I'm thinking the sedation and increased appetite would help some symptoms. It also depresses the HPA axis so helping with anxiety and stress, and causes minimal disruption to sleep architecture. Trimipramine has a similar effect.
Anybody had any experience of using them during Zyprexa withdrawal?
Q
Posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 13:08:22
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » kotsunega, posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 12:52:34
Hi Q
I am aiming to come off Zyprexa without any cross taper or any assistance from any other drug. It seems futile to come off Zyprexa at the expense of an extra medication to take. At present I take 900 mg of Lithium plus 3.75 mg (shortly 2.5 mg)of Zyprexa. I aim to get off it by a slow and patient taper. This time I have already taken 7 weeks to get down to 3.75. Last time I made it from 5 mg to 0 mg in just 4 weeks. Last time the rebound insomnia was severe. This time I hope it will be better.
> Hmmmm..... I'm just wondering what drug would make a good cross taper for Zyprexa withdrawal? Has anyone tried using Remeron for this purpose? I'm thinking the sedation and increased appetite would help some symptoms. It also depresses the HPA axis so helping with anxiety and stress, and causes minimal disruption to sleep architecture. Trimipramine has a similar effect.
>
> Anybody had any experience of using them during Zyprexa withdrawal?
>
> Q
Posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 13:18:23
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 13:08:22
Hi Ronaldo
I'm really glad you decided to take it slowly. I think it's the best way.
Ed
Posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 13:26:05
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by blueberry1 on January 1, 2007, at 12:34:07
> I am 36 hours into stopping completely. No probs yet except I slept horrible. From what I remember problems really start to kick in at about day 3.
Greetings blueberry
I take it you are down to Zero. Congratulations!
I hope your sleep improves. Keep us posted on how you are progressing. I am holding thumbs for you. Try to keep it plain and simple, ie avoid taking 'extras' if you possibly can, unless it is something that is guaranteed 100% to help. I reckon you have done most of the hard work already, hopefully the shift to zero will be easier. Most of those little receptors have been shot down by now, I reckon. Its a matter of out-waiting the die-hards. Good luck! I am about to make the drop to 2.5 mg within the next few days.
a rootin' tootin' ronaldo
Posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 14:08:47
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 13:08:22
>I am aiming to come off Zyprexa without any cross taper or any assistance from any other drug. It seems futile to come off Zyprexa at the expense of an extra medication to take. At present I take 900 mg of Lithium plus 3.75 mg (shortly 2.5 mg)of Zyprexa.
Why do you think it's futile to use another less harmful drug (in terms of movement disorders, diabetes etc.) to ease your Zyprexa withdrawal if you'd like to quit that drug ASAP because of the damage continued use could cause? I presume you're already using Lithium there for assistance as a mood stabilizer for any rebound mania or depression? So why the objection for a similar treatment for insomnia, which if untreated can trigger manic episodes? Just curious.
>Last time the rebound insomnia was severe. This time I hope it will be better.
Yes, insomnia is a major problem in many different drug withdrawals. It seems to lower resistance to stress and generally makes life miserable. Well, good luck with your taper schedule - I wish you more success this time.
Q
Posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 14:22:48
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » ronaldo, posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 13:18:23
Hi EdI'm following the script you gave me. Thanks to you things are going fairly smoothly so far.
ronaldo
> I'm really glad you decided to take it slowly. I think it's the best way.
>
> Ed
Posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 15:09:08
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » ed_uk, posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 14:22:48
I wish you the best with your taper :)
Ed
Posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 15:24:19
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » ronaldo, posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 14:08:47
Hi Q
Last time I came off Zyprexa I asked my pdoc for something for insomnia and he prescribed Seroquel 50 mg. It didn't work. Tried it from 6.25 mg to 100 mg and it did not work. My GP prescribed me some Zopiclone which also didn't work. Tried 7.5 and 15 mg and it did not work. In fact both these medications made my sleep worse. I used to go to sleep quickly but I would be awake at 3 am. They only gave me 4 hours sleep. At this time I was on zero Zyprexa, had been so for 3 weeks. As far as I am concerned coming off Zyprexa does something to the brain that prevents anything else from working. That's why I like to keep it plain and simple.
Thanks for your kind wishes. I think I will make it this time. Another 4 weeks and I should be a free man.
ronaldo
> >I am aiming to come off Zyprexa without any cross taper or any assistance from any other drug. It seems futile to come off Zyprexa at the expense of an extra medication to take. At present I take 900 mg of Lithium plus 3.75 mg (shortly 2.5 mg)of Zyprexa.
>
> Why do you think it's futile to use another less harmful drug (in terms of movement disorders, diabetes etc.) to ease your Zyprexa withdrawal if you'd like to quit that drug ASAP because of the damage continued use could cause? I presume you're already using Lithium there for assistance as a mood stabilizer for any rebound mania or depression? So why the objection for a similar treatment for insomnia, which if untreated can trigger manic episodes? Just curious.
>
> >Last time the rebound insomnia was severe. This time I hope it will be better.
>
> Yes, insomnia is a major problem in many different drug withdrawals. It seems to lower resistance to stress and generally makes life miserable. Well, good luck with your taper schedule - I wish you more success this time.
>
> Q
Posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 15:29:19
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by blueberry1 on January 1, 2007, at 12:34:07
> I am 36 hours into stopping completely. No probs yet except I slept horrible. From what I remember problems really start to kick in at about day 3.
Doxepin?
- Scott
Posted by med_empowered on January 1, 2007, at 15:30:42
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on January 1, 2007, at 15:24:19
neuroleptic withdrawals suck. And docs tend to pretend they don't exist. Even withdrawing from Abilify (its "clean," apparently) was very, very difficult--benzos (ativan+klonopin) helped alot, as did trileptal. Sleep was important, but just as (or more) important was controlling mood swings and keeping anxiety under control. If benzos aren't an option, I imagine trileptal or some other anticonvulsant would help, plus something sedating (maybe vistaril?)
Posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 15:33:27
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by blueberry1 on January 1, 2007, at 12:34:07
> > I am 36 hours into stopping completely. No probs yet except I slept horrible. From what I remember problems really start to kick in at about day 3.
>
>
> Doxepin?
Trimipramine might be interesting to try. I didn't realize that it is also a potent H1 receptor antagonist. I'm sure I don't have to describe to you how it maintains sleep architecture.
- Scott
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on January 1, 2007, at 15:59:08
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprex » blueberry1, posted by SLS on January 1, 2007, at 15:33:27
Im just wondering. Based on what Ive read in this post, it seems like the worst med ever. Anyone been helped by it?
Posted by med_empowered on January 1, 2007, at 17:50:23
In reply to Re: Are there any positives about Zyprexa?, posted by UgottaHaveHope on January 1, 2007, at 15:59:08
it isn't all bad. I could see using it as-needed for intense problems that can't be handled by non-drug interventions and/or benzos. Personally, very low doses of zyprexa briefly provided a much needed break. At 2.5 mgs or so, I had akathisia. So..I dont think its good long term, but I could see using it on a strictly as-needed basis.
Posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 18:01:04
In reply to Re: Are there any positives about Zyprexa?, posted by UgottaHaveHope on January 1, 2007, at 15:59:08
> Im just wondering. Based on what Ive read in this post, it seems like the worst med ever. Anyone been helped by it?
Oh yes, it was a life-saver for me. It was the only drug that completely solved my severe and decade-long mania and delusional (very destructive) thinking. It was the only drug that let me sleep at night. And THAT has been its seduction. Now that there are health concerns associated with this med; now that there are newer alternatives; it seems that escaping zyprexa's clutches in order to move on to those more favorable alternatives is extremely difficult, if not downright impossible. How convenient for zyprexa's manufacturer to have, unwittingly, reeled in a nice big captive audience.
Posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 18:54:29
In reply to Re: Are there any positives about Zyprexa?, posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 18:01:04
It's really striking what a consensus users seem to have about zyprexa. I manged to get off it relatively painlessly compared to others, but I only used 2.5 and up to 5mg for about 6 weeks while coming off klonopin. Some of the warnings here on babble served as motivators- and I now feel better without it. But I gained at least, at least 10 pounds in 6 weeks despite not really doing anything different! (Except for starting adderall- which supposedly is such an appetite suppressant. But it's no match for zyprexa!) Plus I think it made me apathetic and lazy. It's as if it started bringing on the very symptoms which it's instructions claims it helps... I hope very much my metabolism isn't completely screwed up. Oh sure it made me feel better- for a handful of days until I started freaking out about how I couldn't quite zip my pants right anymore. Now, I am a vegetable and excercise sensation, but weight comes on easier than it comes off. I can't afford a new wardrobe, and I don't want one. I can't for the life of me figure out any good reason that doctors are so enamored with this med.
Posted by med_empowered on January 1, 2007, at 19:28:10
In reply to Re: about Zyprexa?, posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 18:54:29
I dont know whats up w/ docs loving zyprexa, either. I think the way it was pushed helped. Here was a drug that (at first) seemed to be ideal: it stopped psychosis, mania, helped with depression, and since the risks of akathisia and tardive dyskinesia seemed so low, it could also be used for anxiety, OCD, agitation, sleep...on and on. If you look back to the 50s-70s, shrinks were in love with the old antipsychotics, too; they were used for ADD kids, drug withdrawal, depression, anxiety, bipolar, agitation, "senile agitation", so on and so forth. Back in the day there was even a book about it...I think it was called The tranquilizing of America, or something like that.
As a (former) psychiatric patient, I find it a little disturbing that shrinks fell in love with it. I mean, if the effects of a neuroleptic (apathy, docility, reduced emotion) produce what shrinks consider "success" in so many people, then what exactly do they think "mental health" looks like? A sedate, reasonably friendly but dull patient on a little bit of Thorazine? And why, knowing what neuroleptics do to creativity and emotions, do shrinks feel the need to spray them on everyone, for everything?
Its kind of scary.
Posted by Sebastian on January 1, 2007, at 19:30:13
In reply to Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa?, posted by kotsunega on January 1, 2007, at 0:44:26
I've taken zyprexa for almost 10 years. i don't know how many times I tried to quit. I started with a dose of 10mg and stoped after 9 months for about 4 months. During that time I could not eat, sleep. I also went psychotic, ie, could not leave the house. So I went back on it for anouther 9 months, quit for anouther 4 months, same thing. That was the last time I quit for a while, about 4 years. The next time I tried to quit it was very difficult. I started by cutting the dose in half, I felt like I was going crazy for a few days, then it got easyer, but wished I had cut down slower. For the next month I felt fine but different, sort of less happy. Then I made a mistake and stoped taking the medicine all together. Days one and two were ok, then it was awfull, I could not eat, got very paranoid and started avoiding people, eating lunch and studying in my car and feeling like I was going to do something stupid like run and scream. Also did other stupid things like bust up laughing for no reason in class, every one just looked and avoided. Thoughts would race, I got extreamly woried about poeple for no reason, calling and calling and saying stupid stuff that made no sense. By the end of the week I was falling apart and littery finding it harder and harder to eat, literaly I could not get food down my throat. My parents told me to call the doctor, he instructed that I take 1.25mg zyprexa, within 15 min I could eat, and I started feeling calm again, something that didn't happen all week. Slowly I pleaded with my doc to get the medicine back up to the full dose again. I stayed there for anouther 9 months and decided I wanted off the medicine, it was making me tired, fat, and i felt like I was in hell. Decreased the dose to 5mg and felt great for a while, then I was feeling tired, worn out and wanted the med again at full dose, but my doctor would not let me. I went a little crazy over the next 2 years, finding that I would worry alot and imagine things. Tried some other anti-psychotics, but none of them could take the place or fill the void of zyprexa. They all made me feel worse and I was not feeling happy at all. Only zyprexa has this amazing calming, refreshing, happy feel to it. All the other AP did not work except zp. I asociate zyprexa with saine, not zyprexa insane. Eventualy I went back on the full dose again but it was not the same and I would not feel good at higher doses anymore but I was insane at lower doses. Is it my imagination. I realy liked the effects of zyprexa the first pill I took, it made me feel realy good and I wanted to take it, when I saw the price of it i realy wanted to take it. So for the last 2 years or so I've been on many different doses I'm starting to think changing the dose and taking it as needed is best. Currently I take 5mg again with abilify, so far I have not gone crazy, but its only been 3 weeks and I don't think I can get all the way off the zyprexa, because you feel fine for a while and then desperatly want it back again.
Posted by Sebastian on January 1, 2007, at 19:44:07
In reply to Re: Taking a poll - have you failed to quit Zyprexa? » kotsunega, posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 12:52:34
I tried this and had the worst sleep ever. Very bad nightmares, couldn't function. Like always happens when I stop it except worse. I had a nightmare that I would never be able to get more zyprexa.
Posted by Quintal on January 1, 2007, at 19:52:47
In reply to Re: remeron to substitute zyprexa, ha » Quintal, posted by Sebastian on January 1, 2007, at 19:44:07
>I had a nightmare that I would never be able to get more zyprexa.
:-)
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2007, at 19:58:17
In reply to Re: remeron to substitute zyprexa, ha » Quintal, posted by Sebastian on January 1, 2007, at 19:44:07
Sebastian not to be mean but glad I didn't take your advise you know what I mean. We need to e-mail again. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sebastian on January 1, 2007, at 20:00:12
In reply to Re: Are there any positives about Zyprexa?, posted by UgottaHaveHope on January 1, 2007, at 15:59:08
zyprexa is the best drug I ever took. It is the only one that made me saine for years and still does. risperdal made me holucinate and stiff as a board, could not move. geodon was too weak and did nothing for me. Abilify I'm trying again but with the zyprexa. I don't want to stop zyprexa except for one thing, it may be giving me diabeties. I hope that half the dose will work and get blood sugar under control.
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