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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 75. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2006, at 9:38:08
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irrational, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 9:19:37
> Truths about medications are not subject to emotional interpratation.
I think just about any interpretation of information or judgment can be influenced by one's emotional state. In a severely depressed, manic, obsessive, anxious, or psychotic state, one's judgment is often skewed, if not impaired. I think the point made by Squiggles is that a professional might be in a better frame of mind to make decisions or offer interpretations than is the suffering patient.
Yes. Facts are facts to the extent to which they are agreed upon. However, even this agreement is often nothing more than a matter of opinion, and opinions often change with the gathering of new information and the founding of new understandings.
- Scott
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 10:33:23
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by SLS on December 3, 2006, at 9:38:08
> > Truths about medications are not subject to emotional interpratation.
>
> I think just about any interpretation of information or judgment can be influenced by one's emotional state. In a severely depressed, manic, obsessive, anxious, or psychotic state, one's judgment is often skewed, if not impaired. I think the point made by Squiggles is that a professional might be in a better frame of mind to make decisions or offer interpretations than is the suffering patient.You took the words right out of my mouth Scott. :-)
Of course, we do have to rely on the probability that the doctor will be in a better state of mind than the patient, but I don't think that is too generous a supposition.
>
> Yes. Facts are facts to the extent to which they are agreed upon. However, even this agreement is often nothing more than a matter of opinion, and opinions often change with the gathering of new information and the founding of new understandings.
>Uhm, yeah, i think that is the march of science,
right;tx
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 11:01:12
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 9:24:39
"psychological states
that make a person fear medications and
psychiatry, in whatever form."Yeah, I hate the psychological state of normalicy too.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 11:05:14
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by SLS on December 3, 2006, at 9:38:08
>a
>professional might be in a better frame of mind >to make decisions or offer interpretations than >is the suffering patient.Or in a better position to take advantge.
>Yes. Facts are facts to the extent to which they >are agreed upon. However, even this agreement is >often nothing more than a matter of opinionOh I see, so the fact that AP's can cause TD is just a matter of opinion? The fact that lithium dammaged my mothers kidneys and she might soon need dialysis, thats just a matter of opinion?
>opinions often change with the gathering of new >information and the founding of new >understandings.
Hey, I don't fear the unknown, I fear the known.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 11:08:40
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » SLS, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 10:33:23
Its part of the recovery process, I suppose, to suggest that all of ones suffering was not grounded in reality, but instead, a mear figment of ones imagination.
Those clever parietal lobes, always serving the user.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on December 3, 2006, at 11:37:45
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 11:08:40
Link what could lithium due to hurt your Mother's kidneys to the point of dyalysis? I've not heard of lithium being toxic to the Kidney? Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 12:02:16
In reply to Illness increases vulnerability to the irrational, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 9:10:42
I wish I could go to a pdoc and let him call the shots Squiggles. That hasn't been the case in my country where most of us get what we we're given in medical care and have to live with it regardless.
The last pdoc handed me a script for 30mg isocarboxazid, asking me "That's Parnate isn't it?" No checking the trade name or dose in the pdoc's drug manual or anything. He asked me what dose people were taking on the net and prescribed it to me. How am I supposed to trust this guy to know which medications are safest and likely to be most effective for me if I ever do have a complete flip out and can't check his prescriptions for him? It's bone chilling to think about at times. This is the same one that tried to tell me Zyprexa was a regular AD like Prozac.
>Under those conditions, you should not make
your own decisions, but rely on a good,
biomedically inclined doctor (not a naturopath,
not a faith healer, not an activist, not
a vitamin pusher, etc.).And if you have access only to a third-rate lazy pdoc (who is in fact little more than a puppet for the drug companies, and paid to push their latest freshly patented product) then what do you do? What is the only sane thing to do but take control of your own treatment in the best way you can?
>And you should go to him/her pronto, as this
is the signal that you are on the edge of
a precipice from which if you fall, you may
not be able to return.At best I have an appointment every six months. I have to stick with this regardless of my mental state and drug side-effects etc. I was recently told by my GP to persevere with the Lamictal rash because I would have to wait up to a year to see the pdoc again and she is limited to what she can prescribe herself. I refuse to take any more because I think it could be dangerous with the side effects I was beginning to suffer.
I think you've raised a good point Squiggles, so I don't want to come across as joining in the scrum, but to me at least psychiatry is beginning to look more and more like a sophisticated, government sanctioned form of quackery itself.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 12:10:01
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on December 3, 2006, at 11:37:45
>Link what could lithium due to hurt your Mother's kidneys to the point of dyalysis? I've not heard of lithium being toxic to the Kidney? Love Phillipa
My first pdoc steered me away from lithium on the grounds he had seen people suffer thyroid and kidey damage after long-term treatment.
Q
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:17:34
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irrational » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 12:02:16
The treatment of mental illness is
demanding and chronic. If I had my
way I would apply Dr. Fuller Torrey's
ideas of insitutions. However, we now
have so many people and so many with
depression, that it may end up being
worse.Not all doctors fit your characterization
though. You might try looking for someone
else.Squiggles
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2006, at 12:23:03
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » SLS, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 11:05:14
> Oh I see, so the fact that AP's can cause TD is just a matter of opinion?
Pretty much. The degree to which atypical antipsychotic drugs like Abilify and Seroquel produce TD has yet to be acknowledged and quantified. Is it a fact that Abilify produces TD? Not yet. Maybe later.
The fact that lithium dammaged my mothers kidneys and she might soon need dialysis, thats just a matter of opinion?
Of course it is. However, it is an opinion that is overwhelmingly agreed upon. I'm not saying that true facts don't exist. I'm just saying that in the minds of men, they can exist only as belief and opinion with relative degrees of certainty that vary according to the holder of that belief and opinion.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:40:06
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Quintal, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:17:34
>not a naturopath,
>not a faith healer, not an activist, not
>a vitamin pusher, etc.).You speak as if these may not be legitimate forms of healing for some people.
One person's cure cannot be compared to another person's. Some of my most well states have been through the use of herbs and vitamins.
Sometimes the so called "big guns" blew a big hole in me.
The reason people like to bash one form of treatment and praise another is that it helps to clean up confusion, and reduce anxiety a person may have over treatment options.
To categorize treaments like this may make ones choice seem clear, but not necessarily any more valid or correct.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:42:13
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:40:06
In that light, doctor bob could be seen as a "vitamin pusher", as he has a board dedicated to the use of alternative treatments.
Ie. A very knowledgable and respectable psychiatrist has his mind open to more than just "drugs".
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:43:35
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:40:06
You are free to do the right thing
and free to do the wrong thing.
Good luck.Squiggles
Posted by Klavot on December 3, 2006, at 12:43:53
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irrational » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 12:02:16
> I think you've raised a good point Squiggles, so I don't want to come across as joining in the scrum, but to me at least psychiatry is beginning to look more and more like a sophisticated, government sanctioned form of quackery itself.
>
> QIf you think psychiatry is quackery, then just don't use it.
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:47:05
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:42:13
> In that light, doctor bob could be seen as a "vitamin pusher", as he has a board dedicated to the use of alternative treatments.
>
> Ie. A very knowledgable and respectable psychiatrist has his mind open to more than just "drugs".
>
> LinkadgeYes, I wish he wouldn't. I suppose he
believes in democracy. But I don't -- not
in medicine.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:48:26
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by SLS on December 3, 2006, at 12:23:03
First off, I was referring to older AP's.
Second, I think that its just "your opinion" that the side effects from these treatments are just opinion. It is my opinion, that they are fact.
What good does it do to consider SSRI induces sexual dysfunction for instance, as a point of view?
Patient: "Hi doctor, prozac is making me impotent"
Doctor: "Well thats just your opinion".
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:52:05
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:43:35
>You are free to do the right thing
>and free to do the wrong thing.
>Good luck.With this sort of thing, I don't think there is such a think as right and wrong choices.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:58:46
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:47:05
>Yes, I wish he wouldn't. I suppose he
>believes in democracy. But I don't -- not
>in medicine
Where do you think a lot of these drugs came from?So, the people who discovered the painkilling properties of chewing on the tree bark that eventually became asprin were a bunch of quacks?
And the psychatrists at Harvard who discovered the mood stabilizing properties of omega-3, are just a bunch of quacks too?
So, I found omega-3 was a better choice for me for mood than lithium. I'm doing better in school, I feel better, sleeping better. So whats wrong with that? Is that all in my head? I really don't care...."go with it till it stops working for ya".
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:03:12
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:58:46
Lithium wasn't always a drug you know.
But then again, I suppose the people who travelled hundreds of miles to drink of the famous healig lithium containing water springs, were probably, at the time, considered a bunch of quacks too.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:03:54
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Squiggles, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:52:05
> >You are free to do the right thing
> >and free to do the wrong thing.
> >Good luck.
>
> With this sort of thing, I don't think there is such a think as right and wrong choices.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>There must be.
If SSRI(e.g. Prozac) makes
you impotent and you don't want that, then
taking Prozac is the wrong thing to do.If, on the other hand, SSRI(Celexa) does not
make you as impotent, then taking Celexa is
the right thing to do.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:04:13
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:03:12
How can somebody ever find a new cure, if the only "true cures", are the ones that have already been established?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:07:54
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:03:54
>If SSRI(e.g. Prozac) makes
>you impotent and you don't want that, then
>taking Prozac is the wrong thing to do.>If, on the other hand, SSRI(Celexa) does not
>make you as impotent, then taking Celexa is
>the right thing to do.If only it were that simple.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:14:01
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:58:46
> >Yes, I wish he wouldn't. I suppose he
> >believes in democracy. But I don't -- not
> >in medicine
>
>
> Where do you think a lot of these drugs came from?
>Plants, herbs, fungii, animal poisons, enzymes, viruses, or synthetic derivatives from them, etc.
> So, the people who discovered the painkilling properties of chewing on the tree bark that eventually became asprin were a bunch of quacks?
> And the psychatrists at Harvard who discovered the mood stabilizing properties of omega-3, are just a bunch of quacks too?
>
> So, I found omega-3 was a better choice for me for mood than lithium. I'm doing better in school, I feel better, sleeping better. So whats wrong with that? Is that all in my head? I really don't care...."go with it till it stops working for ya".Many plants and poisons in nature are therapeutic for illnesses. What medicine does is bring them into the mainstream by testing them and making them safe and appropriate for individual cases. That's why the FDA and other agencies exist. It eliminates risk and regulates crime in the trade of these substances.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:17:35
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:03:12
> Lithium wasn't always a drug you know.
>
> But then again, I suppose the people who travelled hundreds of miles to drink of the famous healig lithium containing water springs, were probably, at the time, considered a bunch of quacks too.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>Considering the geographical location where
lithium is mostly found, I would say no, not
quacks... maybe philosophers. :-)Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:18:44
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:14:01
>What medicine does is bring them into the >mainstream by testing them and making them safe >and appropriate for individual cases. That's why >the FDA and other agencies exist. It eliminates >risk and regulates crime in the trade of these >substances.
The FDA does not make drugs safe. It just works to quantify the dammage that they can cause.
And it also works to denounce the theraputic value of anything that cannot be patented.Linkadge
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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