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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 16:09:10
>Once I understood that the biological feelings >of depression were beyond my control and >independent of thought, I was able to learn how >to think happy and feel terrible.
If you say so.
Linkadge
Posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 1:09:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
I used to think that everyone in the world who appeared happy must be faking it. I could never understand the concept of happiness. I still don't understand the concept, but I guess some people must really be happy, given that they ask "why?" when someone kills themself. To most of us on Psychobabble to ask "why? would be absurd.
But a lot of people ARE faking it. It happens all the time that someone kills themselves and their friends, parents, spouses, therapists are shocked. You read about how they were "oh so happy", football heros or homecoming queens or whatever "with everything to live for". (Even if they were on antidepressants, people will then turn around and say it must have been the fault of the AD's. Ok, it may be true as the black box warnings say that AD's can increase the chance of suicide but give me a break, there was a reason the person was on AD's in the 1st place. Happy people are usually very skilled at denial. Cecilia
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 6:27:59
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
> >Once I understood that the biological feelings >of depression were beyond my control and >independent of thought, I was able to learn how >to think happy and feel terrible.
>
> If you say so.
I know that I won't be very happy if Nardil doesn't work. I don't like feeling terrible and functioning poorly and being separated from society. If it doesn't work, I will need to go through a grieving process which will hopefully lead to acceptance. I might then be able to begin again choosing to think positive thoughts and finding happiness and joy within the boundaries imposed by depression.Happiness does not equate to a perpetual state of euphoria, although it can help facilitate it. Happiness is a state of interpretation and perspective. For some, it comes down to making a choice to live happy versus to live unhappy. However, to live happy often involves a learning process and performing work to produce change. To learn involves the acquisition of information. One must be taught how to be happy if they did not know how to be happy previously.
Not everyone can be happy, even when they know how to be. Life can be unfairly cruel. Life can be destitute and comprised of hardship. Life can remove choice.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 8:35:58
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 1:09:56
>You read about how they were "oh so happy", >football heros or homecoming queens or >whatever "with everything to live for".
Thats exactly what I am taking about. This soceity runs on people faking happiness. Fake happiness is what makes the world go round.We sell fake happiness in magazines. We sell it on television.
Fake happiness sells macdonalds hamburgers, and its what keeps people employed.
We write songs about fake happiness.
The list goes on.
Oh, I'm sure there are some genuinly happy people, but I certainly don't go around assuming everybody is happy just cause they've got a smile on their face. Maybe if I was on ecstacy.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 8:39:07
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 6:27:59
>I might then be able to begin again choosing to >think positive thoughts and finding happiness >and joy within the boundaries imposed by >depression.
Huh?
>Not everyone can be happy, even when they know >how to be. Life can be unfairly cruel. Life can >be destitute and comprised of hardship. Life can >remove choice.
Now you're starting to see things ! :)
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 9:24:29
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 8:39:07
> > I might then be able to begin again choosing to think positive thoughts and finding happiness and joy within the boundaries imposed by depression.
> Huh?For me, depression is a disorder of the brain and not of the mind. The mind can determine the limits that depression imposes upon it. If I were to win the lottery, I wouldn't feel the elation that most people would. My brain is limited as to the arousal, reward, and hedonic responses it is capable of. I still feel terrible. It is therefore important not to interpret winning the lottery simply by associating it with feeling terrible and the lack of reward sensations. One must use cognition to interpret the significance of the event rather than relying upon their affective state. That is an unusual happening to use as an example, to be sure. Can you imagine, though, the multitude of microscopic associations and interpretations that one must navigate on a daily basis? If one becomes adept at using cognitive-behavioral re-interpretation of depressive automatic thoughts and distortions, it becomes a habit that's additive effect is to enhance one's mental health and improve the quality of life.
> > Not everyone can be happy, even when they know how to be. Life can be unfairly cruel. Life can be destitute and comprised of hardship. Life can remove choice.
> Now you're starting to see things ! :)I don't know in what ways life has been unfairly cruel to you, leaving you destitute and living a life comprised of nothing but hardship and without choice, but for this I am sympathetic.
Are you depressed? If so, is your depression biological, psychological, or the result of an interaction between the two?
- Scott
Posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 17:48:28
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 1:09:56
I've read that each person has a "setpoint" for happiness. They studied lottery winners and people who became paraplegics and right after the good or bad events people were happier or unhappier, but a year later they were just about at the same level of happiness as they had been before the events. Cecilia
Posted by clint878 on November 27, 2006, at 18:09:29
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
This is true. Before I ruined my life by taking Sam-E, I had depression under control using thought techniques. Even though I was tired underneath, I eventually learned to push through the tiredness and get stuff done anyway.
I gave up on trying medications and got off them all, and was better off. Don't dismiss the power of cognitive techniques.
Posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 18:15:30
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 17:48:28
Great thread! I agree with Linkadge that you can never really tell who is actually feeling happy, or not. I fake happiness all the time... in fact people think I "fall" into depression every few months again, and I try to tell them I've been depressed the whole time.
They say "No you've been much better" and say "No I just had slightly more energy for some reason and had more energy to put towards PRETENDING to feel happy, motivated, involved etc"...
That's where my energy goes in the so called "happy" times, to pretense. I can hold it out for months sometimes but eventually it catches up with me, like a dog running at my heels.
I grasp deseperately at any little bit of energy I can find, just to keep up the appearance, buying this that or the other supplement, to the doc to get a new med, anything so that work, partner, parents friends will not have to know that I am depressed.
Within all this there is no real chance to be happy... so much effort time money thought goes into playing a role of the happy functioning guy who has finally recovered.
I really don't know if the oppostite of depression is happiness. Happiness is not fulfilling for me - depressed vs effective maybe. "Depression" is not an emotion... it is a disorder, that is multifaceted. There is even a variant of depression where excessive happiness arises in the midst of it all - Bipolar!
I think that the long term depressed among us develop so many coping mechanisms that we eventually lose touch even with who we are. It gets lost in the layers of pretended emotional states... today is someone's birthday party, put on "social, fun, spontaneous, chatty" face. But what if you feel like curling up in fetal position? Often we manage to drag ourselves out with whatever chemical help we can swing together... there is always the fear that we have made a mistake this time and combined the wrong things. And we struggle through the party, and everyone says isn't it great that he's feeling better? He's like his "old" self....
Inside the loathing and the cognitive behavioural tricks are depleting energy, the fuel guage is below zero and you know that after this you will crash, the energy you had scraped together zapped in four hours, and you do.
So you fake the flu, don;'t go to work, sleep for days, gather some more energy, try to banish that aching stone in your chest , work around it, think of something, anything positive.
But you know you're going to have to go back to work, that you will have to talk to your partner, that the kids need you. So you drag yourself out and this time you are doing it with no energy, there's no pretending, you just go through the motions. Its all you can do. "GOD why don't you put some effort in?" screams your partner! "You're not applying yourself you need to think more positive, get some pep!" says your sales manager.
No one can see that the effort you put into simply brushing your teeth is herculean. Then getting your clothes on without bursting in to tears.
Everywhere you look there is a grey black smog. Your chest is all you can feel and the rising panic and fear and god knows what it is, there's no words.
Through all of this the struggle continues, on and on, year after year, relentless.
This is not a feeling. It is a disease, and happiness is not the cure. Complete removal of the signs and symptoms of the disease is the cure, so that you can feel once again the full gamut of human joys, sorrows, elations, hopes, dreams, disappointments, boredom, peace, fear, love.
All you feel when you are depressed is emptiness mixed with anxiety, this is not an emotion, and it is not fair that we should feel like this day in day out. We are less than human, and that's why our definition of a good day is one where we didn't consider swallowing a lethal dose of all those pills we've collected up.
No, happiness has got little, or nothing to do with it. Once we are better, happiness is one of the emotions we will feel at times, when it is appropriate to feel it, and without having to try.
Sorry for the rant.
aeon
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:35:00
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 9:24:29
Well you've achieved a level of controll that I have not.
My brain and my mind are one. If I am depressed, theres no thought that brings any ounce of satisfaction or resurrance.When I can gain controll of my own thoughts, that is when I know I am feeling better.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:36:22
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 17:48:28
I don't believe it, give me a million dollers I will proove you're wrong.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:37:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by clint878 on November 27, 2006, at 18:09:29
What was your experience with SAMe?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 18:15:30
Hey, thanks for that, it was important.
>playing a role of the happy functioning guy who >has finally recovered.Bingo. You need to fake it all the time. For inststance, I wanted out of the hospital so I faked being well just so they'd let me out. Was I still suicidal, of course. Was I any better than when I went in? No.
But I guess the point I am trying to make is that this society is like "The Emperors New CLoths". YOu know the kids story, where everybody pretends that the emperor is wearing cloths just because they don't want to get into trouble.
Then one kid says, hey, the emperor is not wearing anything.
Its the same with happiness. You can't just say, "Hey, recovery is possable cause look at all the happy people around you"This society would fall flat on its face if everyone went around acting like how they felt.
Antidepressants have just made the situation worse. They've made it even harder for people to express how they really feel. Cause now, its not normal to be depressed. If you feel like crap, you've got to see a therapist to get that fixed up.
Maybe we all feel like crap for all I know.Like I originally said, I cannot trust my own presentations to the world, therefore I cannot trust other's presentations.
Linkadge
Posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 19:01:18
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
I'm not sure what people in this discussion mean by "happiness."
If by happiness you mean a monolithic, uninterrupted upbeat sense that life is a bowl of cherries-- or interlude in Eden-- or devoid of pain, disappointment, loss etc-- no, I'd say no one is happy.
I don't think of myself as a happy person-- and probably would say I'm somewhere between a very and pretty unhappy person-- and have been very depressed most of my life-- but I;ve experienced moments of happiness,excitement, warmth, closeness, signifcance, accomplishment-- which I also don't want to deny or annul.
I wish I'd experienced more of them-- and less of the dark emotions-- but my thought is that belief in happiness or the possiblity of meaning (even transient, partial happiness or meaning) is something like Pascal's wager-- if it does exist, I don't want to adhere to beliefs that would make it less likely (or even impossible) for me to experience as much of it as I can-- that would in effect destroy even my present hope for the future-- as well as the likelihood that that future can evolve out of this present.
Not that your current disbelief does negate it-- but it does darken the prospect of the future-- and also perhaps hinder you from working effectively toward whatever part of happiness you really could enjoy. Which is itself a sad thing-- and maybe doesn't have to be that way-- at least, sometime.
Jost
Posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 19:10:38
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
**Maybe we all feel like crap for all I know.**
I wondered this for a long time and the evidence for me stacks up that no they don't. We tend to extrapolate our emotional state to others its human nature... many do but it is not normal.
The whole situation becomes even more stupid if you ever happen to get shackled with the life sentence bipolar. You then have to be double vigilant... actually for me happiness is not even allowed, I have to be real careful in the times when I do feel "better" not get elated from the sheer relief of it and mistakenly tell someone like the (doctor)how great it feels.
I'll be whipped off back to the hospital in a second or worse have the meds removed that were giving me the brief relief.
I am in a catch 22 I can't show my depression and I can't show my happiness. I have to be on an even keel at all times. I just don't talk anymore. "How are you?" "Fine". I am in an emotional prison both within and without.
Hope, that's all we really have, that is the only thing that keeps us going. I observe other people because they give me hope that this is NOT human nature, it is just a disease. That's why I spend hours and hours looking for some slight hope that this or that herb, supp, med, or SOMETHING will be my magic.
I know my hope is misfounded. I am not stupid. I truly do not REALLY believe I will ever feel like they do. But what else is there? Depression + Despair = Death. I've been there and had to come back. So I cling to stupid, mindless brainless hope in the face of hopelessness.
One last thing: Those cognitive beahviourists can stick their happy thoughts you know where! :-) Cause I've tried it, over and over and over again, and thoughts do NOT affect your emotions when you are depressed because DEPRESSION IS NOT AN EMOTION and it overrides all other feelings.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 19:18:18
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 19:01:18
Wow I guess this is something like what Scott has been saying as right now I feel like one lucky cookie. As I was truly happy til I was 50 years old. Yes happy the wow I want to wash the sheets and want to hang them outside to dry. Oh I had bad times like my Son's blindness and divorces but I was happy working in nursing. I loved it. Looked forward to it everyday. Now I know most of you are more educated than I am but for me this was more than I'd ever hoped for. To be a nurse and graduate magna cum laude and win scholarships without any effort was fun and a high. And running was the ultimate high. Any problem I had was gone or solved in my mind about l hour after a run. Right now I feel very lucky to have had this time. So even my Mother dying when I was l7 derailed me but I went on to get married to my high school sweetheart and have three kids all well off and educated today. I traveled the World literally and the Caribbean, and Hawaii twice. And had the privlege of being married to more than one man all who taught me something. And we all parted as friends. So Scott thanks for setting me straight. And I could care less about the lottery. Seriously only enough money to allow yourself freedom is what you need not millions I don't even want that. Oh and my Mother said that if you lose your health you lose everything. Well she was right about that. Thanks guys Love Phillipa/Jan
Posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 20:56:01
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 19:18:18
I wanted to clarify that it's not a choice in lots of ways, but something that you can work on.
I don't think that in my most depressed times, I could possibly have chosen to feel differently-- but that I've been lucky enough to get some help, and to get to a place where I can sometimes make choices that have consequences.
So the choice really is a small nudge at moments when there's some opening-- which there isn't often. But sometimes there is, and then it can make much more of a difference than it's easy to explain.
Hope isn't something you can force.. I know when anyone's feeling really bad, there isn't much to do but try to make it to the next day, or the next hour.Jost
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 6:57:16
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:36:22
> I don't believe it, give me a million dollers I will proove you're wrong.
No. You give me a million dollars first so that I can prove me right.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 19:10:38
> I know my hope is misfounded. I am not stupid. I truly do not REALLY believe I will ever feel like they do. But what else is there? Depression + Despair = Death. I've been there and had to come back. So I cling to stupid, mindless brainless hope in the face of hopelessness.
I know. That's what it comes down to for me sometimes, too. It is a survival mechanism. It is pretty stupid if you think about it.
I guess I still have hope that one of the drugs of the future might work. I just don't like the fact that they are still a few years away.
http://neurotransmitter.net/newdrugs.html
I am also beginning to think seriously about VNS. I think the fact that dysautonomia is a feature of my illness might indicate its usefulness. I need to research it some more, though.
For bipolar depression, I'm currently taking:
Nardil 60mg
nortriptyline 100mg
Lamictal 150mg
Topamax 100mg
Abilify 10mgHave you tried anything like this yet?
I added the Nardil a few weeks ago.
I have some concerns that I will develop serotonin syndrome from the interaction between Nardil and nortriptyline.
- Scott
Posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » aeon, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
>>Have you tried anything like this yet?>>
No, I hope to get Nardil soon, and an ADHD stimulant but noone will prescribe them over here for adults.
So to compensate I'm currently on
Parnate 40mg (60 if I feel real low but then I run out early and have to go to the doc with my tail between my legs and say that I "lost" some again, he won't go higher)
Deprenyl 5-10mg (Don't tell the doc!)
Moclobemide - 150mg if I need an extra boost (which is most days)(again not a word!)
Coffee - 6 cups strong, black no sugar
Cigarettes - Many
Plus a wide and varied assortment of natural supps which changes daily.
These are not making me happy. They allow me to go on, to put food on the table, to appear reasonably OK. Still, I am dead inside most of the time.
Yes, yes I know combining all these MAOI's is DANGEROUS. Do I care? Long past caring... I do what it takes to get me through the day.
I don't have any trouble with sleep... I'm a sleepy depressive so no need for sleeping aids, even though all the above are supposedly stimulating. In fact I have my last coffee before retiring.
aeon
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 8:25:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
> >>Have you tried anything like this yet?>>
>
> No, I hope to get Nardil soon, and an ADHD stimulant but noone will prescribe them over here for adults.Maybe Provigil or Adrafinil then?
> So to compensate I'm currently on...
Wow.
> Parnate 40mg (60 if I feel real low but then I run out early and have to go to the doc with my tail between my legs and say that I "lost" some again, he won't go higher)
Damn. 60-80mg is ideal.
> Deprenyl 5-10mg (Don't tell the doc!)
> Moclobemide - 150mg if I need an extra boost (which is most days)(again not a word!)
> Coffee - 6 cups strong, black no sugar
> Cigarettes - Many
> Plus a wide and varied assortment of natural supps which changes daily.
> These are not making me happy.> They allow me to go on, to put food on the table, to appear reasonably OK. Still, I am dead inside most of the time.
I totally understand. Without all of the crap I take, I doubt I could function well enough to maintain my independence.
> Yes, yes I know combining all these MAOI's is DANGEROUS. Do I care? Long past caring... I do what it takes to get me through the day.
Yup.
> I don't have any trouble with sleep...
I hope Nardil treats you differently. Insomnia with an MAOI is a good sign for me. When Nardil worked for me, it made me feel more alive inside than did Parnate. However, it was a combination of Parnate + desipramine that gave me my longest period of remission. Whatever you do, don't mix Parnate with a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor like an SSRI, Effexor, Cymbalta, or Anafranil. A severe serotonin syndrome reaction is almost guaranteed, and can be dangerous. I once tried to test the waters with Parnate by taking a single 12.5mg dose of Effexor. I experienced delirium and muscle rigidity. Fortunately, it resolved quickly.
- Scott
Posted by Caedmon on November 28, 2006, at 8:36:52
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 6:57:16
I do not think that unhappiness and pathological depression are the same thing. Jost has it right IMHO. Unhappiness - even periods of very deep grief, loneliness, isolation - occur in *everyone*. So do periods of "faking it" wrt being in a good mood. That's normal.
This does not mean that they are unhappy with their lives as a whole.
Happiness as an emotion can never be permanently sustained, but a life worth living - and that is *ultimately* satisfying - most certainly can.
- Chris
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2006, at 8:42:23
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 6:57:16
Well, then when the million dollars has lost all meaning for you, you can donate it to me.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2006, at 8:44:54
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
Wow, between,
the parnate (MAOa inibition)
the Coffee (MAOa inhibition (beta carbolines))
the cigarettes (MAOa inhibition (beta carbolines))
the moclobemide(MAOa inhibition)
the quercetin (MAOa inhibtion)you ought to have no MAO-A left.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:19:09
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » aeon, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
Scott what is dysautonomia? Never heard that before. You research so much. And could Serotonin sydrome occurr now after you've been on the combo for a few weeks. Does it build up in your system and then cause it? Love Jan
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