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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by clint878 on September 5, 2006, at 14:47:09
About a month back I made a post about massive side effects I encountered after using Sam-E. I only took 200mg for five days and then discontinued, but I then had to deal with memory loss, confusion, restlessness, insomnia, and other issues.
I thought I'd post a warning here that I believe the Sam-E caused akathisia. None of the other antidepressants had ever worked for me, and the sole one that had any effect was Sam-E. Now, I'm either "stupidly happy" or somewhat more depressed, but always restless and with poor concentration and memory.
Unfortunately, 27 days later I can't seem to find anyone who can help me with this condition. The GP I'm seeing says that it was all a placebo effect and gave Remeron, which helps a little while the extrapyramidal symptoms resolve little by little.
And I can't see a psychiatrist for another 10 days because they all either have no available appointments or don't accept my insurance. It does seem to be slowly improving, so perhaps a few months from now I will be fully recovered. In the meantime, my goal is to stay alive, sane, and keep my job, which seems to be getting easier, but very slowly.
If I were you, I would stay away from herbal remedies. They might work, but if you encounter a strange effect like I did, there simply isn't enough research to determine what caused the problem, let alone to treat it. Most doctors have no idea and simply don't know enough to help. Stick with the well-tested and proven prescription medications.
-Brant
Posted by willyee on September 6, 2006, at 0:39:40
In reply to Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by clint878 on September 5, 2006, at 14:47:09
> About a month back I made a post about massive side effects I encountered after using Sam-E. I only took 200mg for five days and then discontinued, but I then had to deal with memory loss, confusion, restlessness, insomnia, and other issues.
>
> I thought I'd post a warning here that I believe the Sam-E caused akathisia. None of the other antidepressants had ever worked for me, and the sole one that had any effect was Sam-E. Now, I'm either "stupidly happy" or somewhat more depressed, but always restless and with poor concentration and memory.
>
> Unfortunately, 27 days later I can't seem to find anyone who can help me with this condition. The GP I'm seeing says that it was all a placebo effect and gave Remeron, which helps a little while the extrapyramidal symptoms resolve little by little.
>
> And I can't see a psychiatrist for another 10 days because they all either have no available appointments or don't accept my insurance. It does seem to be slowly improving, so perhaps a few months from now I will be fully recovered. In the meantime, my goal is to stay alive, sane, and keep my job, which seems to be getting easier, but very slowly.
>
> If I were you, I would stay away from herbal remedies. They might work, but if you encounter a strange effect like I did, there simply isn't enough research to determine what caused the problem, let alone to treat it. Most doctors have no idea and simply don't know enough to help. Stick with the well-tested and proven prescription medications.
>
> -Brantsam-E is far from a herbal or holistic substance,HOWEVER i agree its quite potent,its touted as being used in script form in some places and for good reason.
It also,least i know the brands ive seen actualy warn not to use if u have a maniac form of depression.It is as you said a very unstable nutrient,lots of people have probuably turned to it including myself at a point and like you my mood swang like a autmatic pendalum.sam-E i doubt is in any way placebo,and i wouldent recomend its use to anyone,as its a nutrient that really shouldent be played with as far as raising and lowering,its involved in a lot of the bodys process of all the chemicals and can make u go mad or at least feel like it,i remeber washing my entire car in 4 min on it,i felt like i was some form of super speed,yuck.
However i would not rule out all herbs which same is not,if u are willing to look up a herb a little,most of them are actualy subtle and can aid a drug,gotu kola,kava kava,valerian root,st johns wort are all herbs which usualy dont cause much distress .
As far as nutrients go,im also not in favor of the strong ones such as tyrosine,and phenylanine,these can have like sam-E major impacts on mood.
There are some nutrients however that are fairly safe,such as a lot of your b vitamins,vitamin c,l taurine,etc.
Main thing is people need to understand that they are like drugs,if they can pentarate the brain than they alter it and therefore taking mega doses is no longer natural,so if you go this route you need to understand what your taking and treat is as a drug.
There are groups which have tons of info on using natural methods including herbs/nutrients,but if something crosses into the brain,you then should no longer simply take it at will at any dose,or you will regret it,just my opinion from learning the hard way.
In fact,if im not mistaken,wasnt dlpa a amino which is a nutrient just banned somewhere because it can be used to create mdma,"x"
I dunno but my year i spent on strictly natural substances taught me quick that herbs and nutrients can lift and spiral mood as deep and serious as drugs,im sorry you had such a bad experieance with sam-E.One alternative that is milder is dmg,dimethyglycine,which is i forget how but in the samE chain,but much milder in onset and effect,i dident like it but it is a nutrient that like samE quickly crosses into the brain,and it was looked into to be patented as a drug.
To all who use herbs/nutrients/ be careful and spend some time on it as you would reading up on a drug.
Just my nickel
Posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2006, at 19:52:22
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by willyee on September 6, 2006, at 0:39:40
I don't take herbs . Even digoxin is from a tree. Love Phillipa
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 6, 2006, at 20:56:37
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2006, at 19:52:22
Yep, even though it really helped me alot at one time, sitting still was impossible and bouncing my leg all lthe time... annoying for sure.
JB
Posted by willyee on September 7, 2006, at 11:01:34
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2006, at 19:52:22
> I don't take herbs . Even digoxin is from a tree. Love Phillipa
samE is a nutrient not an herb,but in the grand scheme of things they are all considered alternative measures
Posted by llrrrpp on September 9, 2006, at 13:32:36
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by willyee on September 7, 2006, at 11:01:34
If you won't take herbs or supplements, you better be careful to eat a balanced nutrient-rich diet. Ocean fish like wild salmon and flax seed and canola and olive oil for your omega-3 fatty acids and your fats. Lean meat and eggs for your B-vitamins and amino acids. Whole grains and legumes for other important vitamins and carbohydrates. Fruits, vegetables, coffee, chocolate and tea for vitamins and antioxidants. And of course--- a little treat for yourself now and then, like a chocolate chip cookie :)
I had a really bad reaction to SJW -- photosensitive rash over my entire torso. ugh. SOOOO F*ck*ng ITCHY!
I guess I draw a distinction between taking supplements* vs taking an herbal, mineral or macromolecular substance to treat or relieve some symptom. Nevertheless, caveat emptor.
-ll
*to make up for my incredibly bad nutrition (weeks went by where the only thing I could eat was sorbet) during depression. I've got the white spots on the older part of fingernails that attest to my malnutrition- including probably low protein consumption and/or low zinc.
Posted by clint878 on September 9, 2006, at 16:42:22
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by llrrrpp on September 9, 2006, at 13:32:36
Well, I decided that, if I recover, I plan to only take a multivitamin from GNC and 3x500mg Omega-3 capsules a day. Of course, if my memory does not continue to improve, then this plan is worthless because I won't remember it tomorrow morning.
I've never heard of a supplement that still has effects 30 days after ingestion. However, there is no possible way these symptoms could have been only somatic. People are trying to convince me I imagined everything; however, I felt no emotions, so how could I imagine it? I couldn't even remember the words for emotions, and I wouldn't have even known how to feel dysphoric before I took the Sam-E. Depression was far better.
My main issue here is that there is loads of research performed on all the medications but not on the supplements. To me, it doesn't matter whether something is "natural" or not. Cocaine, for example, is completely natural, but if you take it for a long period it will destroy your life. With Sam-E, the only recourse I have is to discontinue and hope it gets better. For all anyone knows, continuing might have been the better choice. If something like this were to occur from Wellbutrin, however, I could find all sorts of case reports and how they were treated. I could also contact the manufacturer to file an adverse effect report.
> If you won't take herbs or supplements, you better be careful to eat a balanced nutrient-rich diet. Ocean fish like wild salmon and flax seed and canola and olive oil for your omega-3 fatty acids and your fats. Lean meat and eggs for your B-vitamins and amino acids. Whole grains and legumes for other important vitamins and carbohydrates. Fruits, vegetables, coffee, chocolate and tea for vitamins and antioxidants. And of course--- a little treat for yourself now and then, like a chocolate chip cookie :)
>
> I had a really bad reaction to SJW -- photosensitive rash over my entire torso. ugh. SOOOO F*ck*ng ITCHY!
>
> I guess I draw a distinction between taking supplements* vs taking an herbal, mineral or macromolecular substance to treat or relieve some symptom. Nevertheless, caveat emptor.
>
> -ll
>
> *to make up for my incredibly bad nutrition (weeks went by where the only thing I could eat was sorbet) during depression. I've got the white spots on the older part of fingernails that attest to my malnutrition- including probably low protein consumption and/or low zinc.
>
>
Posted by tizza on September 9, 2006, at 20:19:02
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by clint878 on September 9, 2006, at 16:42:22
I have been taking SAMe and SJW for 4 days now and I'm starting to feel pretty good, it has to be the SAMe because SJW takes a few weeks to kick in just like a SSRI. I'll take your advice on board but for now it's all good, I went back to the dark side and I'm positive that it's the SAMe that has pulled me out of it.
Posted by Phillipa on September 9, 2006, at 20:22:40
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia, posted by tizza on September 9, 2006, at 20:19:02
Tizza really? when you have time e-mail me about it. Love Phillipa
Posted by tizza on September 9, 2006, at 21:28:39
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia » tizza, posted by Phillipa on September 9, 2006, at 20:22:40
just sent one off hon!!
Posted by spriggy on September 11, 2006, at 0:20:39
In reply to Re: Warning: Sam-E and akathisia » Phillipa, posted by tizza on September 9, 2006, at 21:28:39
I've been on Sam-E ( 2oo mg) for about 2-3 weeks now.
I feel like the depression has lifted a bit but no adverse reactions. The only thing I have definitely noticed is my skin has never looked better.
I will be careful though- that's why I am starting out on a low dose (200 versus 800).
I don't believe this is in your head- it makes perfect sense to me that if Sam-E effects seratonin and dopamine that someone could respond like you did.
I hope you feel better soon.
This is the end of the thread.
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