![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by DanielJ on June 17, 2006, at 6:45:00
In reply to Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by spriggy on June 17, 2006, at 2:32:32
I have found that coffee is an effective AD. Two days off coffee and I was nearly psychotic. As soon as I started up again I was fine. 2 cups a day works for me, sometimes I can get by with one.
Posted by willyee on June 17, 2006, at 9:34:12
In reply to Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by spriggy on June 17, 2006, at 2:53:05
Wikipedia caffiene,its not this horrid substance people speak of.In fact some believe it can be nuero-prtective,and have noticed caffiene consumers have tended to show less likly hood of devolping certain brain disorders,i have linked these in the past,theres a few of them,a google search with keywords caffiene and the brain should bring them up.
Caffiene in moderate doses also if u go to www.remedyfind.com a very respected and informative site,you will see caffiene is listed as a possable depression/fatigue remedy as well,and is even rated and commmented on.
I believe a lethal toxic dose of caffiene is very very high.Coffee grind has in its own right its qualites,i believe there are some compounds in coffee that mimic small like effects of opiods,which is why coffee users get from there MORNING coffe mental clarity.....from the stimulant of caffiene and sugar.......and they k the over all calm and soothing effect of the coffe grind.
This is why u see more people needing a FIRST cup of coffee in the morning over NEEDING a moutain dew,its more than the caffiene.You have found a legal safe substance that seems from what i read to be very helpful,there are a few herbs u can add to coffee or tea to balance it more so,but personaly listening to ur situation id stick with the coffee,as u can see meds even stimulants tend to have some issues.
You seem frightened to become addicted to things,and yess addiction/dependance is possable on coffee,but if we as a people dont stop worrying about every single thing we are dependant on we will live very boring lives (my opinion)
I guess this whole post is basicaly to say if coffee works,embrace that!!!
Posted by meri-tuuli on June 17, 2006, at 10:53:13
In reply to Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by spriggy on June 17, 2006, at 2:53:05
hey there!!
Have a look at modafinil or andafinil, wakeful promoting agents. I get the impression that andrafil is the more of an AD one, and perhaps better rated amongst babblers - it has significant AD properties too. Anyhow, research 'em both and see what you think.
Kind regards
Meri (now in sunny Finland!)
Posted by Last Chance on June 17, 2006, at 11:21:35
In reply to Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by spriggy on June 17, 2006, at 2:53:05
Spriggy - I don't think from my experience that the .5 Ativan would have you feeling drowsy, tired the next day. On coffee - well I am on the Emsam patch, not doing that well, and take .25 Klonapin at night and in the morning. I still drink a strong cup of coffee in the morning, and then a double short in the afternoon when I am in town. I have quit coffee many times, but really, what's the point. It almost has to be better for you than a lot of the meds - So if it makes you feel better in the morning, then why not. It also poops out after awhile, and you just take a break and start over, just like other AD's. And it tastes good too. Richard
Posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2006, at 12:58:47
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by Last Chance on June 17, 2006, at 11:21:35
Spriggy could the coffee be helping the fibromyalgia? Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2006, at 13:01:29
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by DanielJ on June 17, 2006, at 6:45:00
Spriggy I answered you below stick with the coffee. I wish I could drink the caffeiene makes my anxiety worse.I'm jelous. Love phillipa
Posted by zeugma on June 17, 2006, at 16:38:20
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2006, at 12:58:47
caffeine is definitely an antidepressant (it has been documented to lower the suicide rate).
It may be neuroprotective, as willyee said, in that it may lower the risk of Parkinson's disease.
I personally do not find caffeine similar at all to modafinil. There is a major price difference between the two drugs as well, which may be attentuated if you obtain your caffeine solely in Starbuck's form
:-)
-z
Posted by saturn on June 17, 2006, at 21:39:33
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan, posted by zeugma on June 17, 2006, at 16:38:20
>
> I personally do not find caffeine similar at all to modafinil.Hey Z,
May I ask how you would compare caffeine to modafinil? I'm thinking of trying modafinil for ADHD. I drink coffee, but it doesn't help much for my ADHD.
Also, how do you find it to compare to caffeine in terms of peripheral activation (heart rate, nervousness...)?
Thanks for any info. Peace. Saturn.
Posted by willyee on June 18, 2006, at 10:28:29
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan » zeugma, posted by saturn on June 17, 2006, at 21:39:33
>
> >
> > I personally do not find caffeine similar at all to modafinil.
>
> Hey Z,
>
> May I ask how you would compare caffeine to modafinil? I'm thinking of trying modafinil for ADHD. I drink coffee, but it doesn't help much for my ADHD.
>
> Also, how do you find it to compare to caffeine in terms of peripheral activation (heart rate, nervousness...)?
>
> Thanks for any info. Peace. Saturn.
Without being one of the technical people who post here,i can tell you one major difference is caffiene along with Dopmamine has very strong effects on NE......dopamine is not always a stimulant,NE is like pure adrenaline which is why some people might not find modfanil too stimulating yet run up a wall with caffiene,modfanil affects a specific area of dopamine with the intentions of not creating a energy like speed,it was or is to be a mild stimulant,caffiene however is in all ur energy drinks etc and is known to increase energy and adreanline.Different strokes for different folks,some people totaly cant tolerate caffiene and they shouldent if it makes them shaky and too stimulated.
Posted by zeugma on June 18, 2006, at 14:00:32
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan » zeugma, posted by saturn on June 17, 2006, at 21:39:33
Hi saturn,
Both caffeine and modafinil can cause a certain amount of peripheral stimulation/nervousness. Knowing what your previous experience with caffeine has been would be helpful. For myself, I have severe anxiety/panic, and there is no way I could hold a normal job without clonazepam or other powerful anxiolytic (I know this because I have had panic attacks since childhood and have gotten fired from too many jobs to name because of shaking, slurred speech when anxious, etc. [some of these symptoms are possible cataplexies; I have had only one instance of unambiguous cataplexy, many, many years ago]). The same goes for ADHD med/stimulant: For a while caffeine helped, I remember on one exam that i took without caffeine, my prof wrote on the exam "Please see me because you clearly have medical reasons for doing so poorly on this exam." I was literally writing in a fog.
That said, atomoxetine, methylphenidate, and modafinil are all therapeutic for my ADHD in ways that caffeine simply is not. I've written this before, so apologies for any boring repitition, but I will briefly run down the effects of these three drugs, plus pemoline (Cylert) which has been discontinued due to hepatoxicity but resembles modafinil fairly closely:
Atomoxetine: Racing heart, no BP changes, most 'alerting' effect of any med, produces a perfect clarity of thought; most powerful effect on distractibilty.
Methylphenidate: Severe orthostatic hypotension, speeded heart rate, no effect on BP, best anti-narcolepsy effect, powerful effect on motivation, strong anti-anhedonia effect, intensified mood for better or worse, caused increased impulsivity and distractibilty, made me want to socialize (only drug that has done anything remotely like this), very strong effect on any perception difficulties that may be associated with ADHD.
Modafinil: Some nervousness, no effect on HR or BP,st times feels like extremely slow-release methyphenidate, at other times feels like an SSRI, levels out emotions to some degree unlike MPH, less wakefulness, in some ways better focus (less distractibility than on methyphenidate, more sensory improvement than on atomoxetine). Also fewer peaks and valleys than MPH, which was a big problem on MPH.
Pemoline (Cylert): Similar to modafinil in terms of smooth effect, non-anxiogenic, more improvement on distractibilty than MPH, absolutely no effect on HR or BP, caused severe anorexia like MPH, which is why I was pulled off quickly.
-z
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 6:06:58
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan » zeugma, posted by saturn on June 17, 2006, at 21:39:33
>
> >
> > I personally do not find caffeine similar at all to modafinil.
>
> Hey Z,
>
> May I ask how you would compare caffeine to modafinil? I'm thinking of trying modafinil for ADHD. I drink coffee, but it doesn't help much for my ADHD.
>
> Also, how do you find it to compare to caffeine in terms of peripheral activation (heart rate, nervousness...)?
>
> Thanks for any info. Peace. Saturn.Hey Saturn, I drink coffee and take provigil (modafinil). I have to cut my coffee to half decaf or I get to shaky and irritable. Provigil does not do that to me at all, I have been taking it for 4 years, anywhere from 200-400mg daily in two divided doses. I have not tried to discontinue it as it elevates my mood and makes me more inclined to be social, but I know if I try to quit caffeine I get the migraine from the lowest pit of hell. And I just love to drink it. I started when I was 16 and had been put in the mental hospital. It made me an active participant in group therapy, if you want to call it that...
donna
Posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 13:02:25
In reply to Re: Questions.. Anyone??? Coffee; Ativan » saturn, posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 6:06:58
I drink coffee and take provigil (modafinil). I have to cut my coffee to half decaf or I get to shaky and irritable. Provigil does not do that to me at all, I have been taking it for 4 years, anywhere from 200-400mg daily in two divided doses. I have not tried to discontinue it as it elevates my mood and makes me more inclined to be social,>>>
I don't know if my lack of sociality is a consequence of Provigil, or a consequence of my life circumstances, or perhaps both. I do know with a fairly high rate of confidence that Provigil is less socially motivating than other stims, but this is probably due to the differential effects of Provigil as a stim (it helps ADHD much, much more than somnolence and fatigue).
but I know if I try to quit caffeine I get the migraine from the lowest pit of hell.>>are your migraines caffeine-withdrawal-induced? I seem to get a kind of migraine associated with my sleep disorder (not an unusual association) and I usually take a Vivarin (200 mg caffeine) to keep me awake (as sleep at inappropriate times is responsible for the migraines) and to relieve the migraine itself. Sorry for writing so much..
-z
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 15:17:20
In reply to migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 13:02:25
> I drink coffee and take provigil (modafinil). I have to cut my coffee to half decaf or I get to shaky and irritable. Provigil does not do that to me at all, I have been taking it for 4 years, anywhere from 200-400mg daily in two divided doses. I have not tried to discontinue it as it elevates my mood and makes me more inclined to be social,>>>
>
> I don't know if my lack of sociality is a consequence of Provigil, or a consequence of my life circumstances, or perhaps both. I do know with a fairly high rate of confidence that Provigil is less socially motivating than other stims, but this is probably due to the differential effects of Provigil as a stim (it helps ADHD much, much more than somnolence and fatigue).
>
>
> but I know if I try to quit caffeine I get the migraine from the lowest pit of hell.>>
>
> are your migraines caffeine-withdrawal-induced? I seem to get a kind of migraine associated with my sleep disorder (not an unusual association) and I usually take a Vivarin (200 mg caffeine) to keep me awake (as sleep at inappropriate times is responsible for the migraines) and to relieve the migraine itself. Sorry for writing so much..
>
>
> -z
>
>
>My goodness, please don't apologize for this tiny little post. I will feel really guilty for the long winded ones I send sometimes...I am glad to answer the questions. I will probably be long-winded about it too because it is confusing to me.
When I was 9 years old I would get terrible migraines every Sunday where I would try to bang my head into the wall and such. My dad would have to hold me down. They would last all day and then around 6pm I would puke and that would be that. That was the same time I was having school phobia. (In retrospect, it wasn't called that at the time). My mother thought it was hormonal I was getting my period at 9 years old!
That is what my caffeine withdrawal headaches are like. I can't lie down they hurt so much, I have to pace the room with a blanket I throw on and off as chills and hot flashes alternate. Finally I puke and then I sleep for a few hours and it is over.
I have always gotten regular headaches that I could fix with aspirin or ibuprofen and then a few years ago those meds stopped working. I would get an awful pain in a neck muscle first and I knew a headache was on the way that could last 3 days. Not the intensity of the old migraines, but still..and sick feeling all over. Nothing worked until I tried a triptan, which are only supposed to work for migraines and that worked like a charm. So, it is a new variation on a very old complaint. I don't have a sleep disorder that I know of except for sleeping too much when depressed. I have always needed around 9 hours though in order to feel my best. I am not one that can get by on a few hours sleep for very long.
Oh, and I can't associate a trigger for the new migraines unless it is just more anxiety than usual.
Now, let me apologize for the long post!!!
donna
Posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 18:13:42
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » zeugma, posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 15:17:20
thanks for the detailed reply.
I wonder if there is a correlation between school (social) phobia (I had to be dragged kicking and screaming as a child to school) and migraine.
I do know that panic disorder, social phobia, and sleep paralysis (which is the trigger for migraines for me) are associated. I came across this unusual case report which included something called "exploding head syndrome," which reminds me of how I feel when I have one of these sleep paralysis attacks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16643566&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
And panic disorder is associated with an enlarged brain stem, and the brain stem is involved in sleep regulation (I have to get some sleep soon!).
Nortriptyline by the way helps with the sleep paralysis etc. I would say it's a more powerful norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor than crazymeds suggests. It is about equal in potency to Strattera as an NRI, but the difference is that Strattera reaches peak plasma concentrations quickly, while nortrip takes about eight hours to do so. This is something I am aware of because if I fall asleep when the nortriptyline concentrations are too low, I get the sleep paralysis and resulting headache. On the other hand, when I took Strattera in the morning and nortrip at night, I had no such problems. (I had a similar experience on a high dose of Ritalin.)
Nortriptyline would be interesting to combine with EmSam.
-z
Posted by Phillipa on June 22, 2006, at 20:18:36
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » zeugma, posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 15:17:20
Donna that's what happened to me during peri-menopause. Went away with menopause. Love Phillipa
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 21:28:49
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 18:13:42
> thanks for the detailed reply.
>
> I wonder if there is a correlation between school (social) phobia (I had to be dragged kicking and screaming as a child to school) and migraine.
>
> I do know that panic disorder, social phobia, and sleep paralysis (which is the trigger for migraines for me) are associated. I came across this unusual case report which included something called "exploding head syndrome," which reminds me of how I feel when I have one of these sleep paralysis attacks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16643566&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
> And panic disorder is associated with an enlarged brain stem, and the brain stem is involved in sleep regulation (I have to get some sleep soon!).
>
> Nortriptyline by the way helps with the sleep paralysis etc. I would say it's a more powerful norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor than crazymeds suggests. It is about equal in potency to Strattera as an NRI, but the difference is that Strattera reaches peak plasma concentrations quickly, while nortrip takes about eight hours to do so. This is something I am aware of because if I fall asleep when the nortriptyline concentrations are too low, I get the sleep paralysis and resulting headache. On the other hand, when I took Strattera in the morning and nortrip at night, I had no such problems. (I had a similar experience on a high dose of Ritalin.)
>
> Nortriptyline would be interesting to combine with EmSam.
>
> -zI am fixing to read the link you provided, but before I forget, and I will forget, the crazy meds page said nortrip was prescribed for migraines and neuropathies, like alot of them are I guess. But I got the idea that nortrip especially so.
I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to school too and then I would lock myself in the bathroom until the teacher got the door opened. Oh what a great year that was..
I think I may have some sleep paralysis if that is what it is that happens only when I take an afternoon nap. I keep trying to desparately open my eyes in my sleep, sometimes I am actually able to flutter them open for a second but it is part of the dream. It feels awful. I have not noticed a migraine associated with it though. It only happens a few times a year. I talk alot in my sleep, for whatever that is worth.
Now, off to read that link.
oh, ps. I think I am personally getting plenty of noripenephrine from the EMSAM alone. I would be a rattling mess with any more of it. I would think.donna
Posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 22:01:20
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » zeugma, posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 21:28:49
I think I may have some sleep paralysis if that is what it is that happens only when I take an afternoon nap. I keep trying to desparately open my eyes in my sleep, sometimes I am actually able to flutter them open for a second but it is part of the dream. It feels awful>>
that is sleep paralysis.
It does feel awful.
It is like a short circuit of my CNS- I notice I am really clumsy for days after an episode (my white shirt was coffee-colored by the time I got home.)first year of school...was that the first year I contemplated running away from home?
-z
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:49:14
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 22:01:20
> I think I may have some sleep paralysis if that is what it is that happens only when I take an afternoon nap. I keep trying to desparately open my eyes in my sleep, sometimes I am actually able to flutter them open for a second but it is part of the dream. It feels awful>>
>
> that is sleep paralysis.
>
> It does feel awful.
>
>
> It is like a short circuit of my CNS- I notice I am really clumsy for days after an episode (my white shirt was coffee-colored by the time I got home.)
>
> first year of school...was that the first year I contemplated running away from home?
>
> -z
>
>I always wanted to come home from school, I was in the nurses office all the time saying I was sick so I good go home. I was so obviously not sick anywhere but in the head. When I was a teenager I did start running away from home. They always sent the cops to find me and bring me back.
donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:53:04
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by zeugma on June 22, 2006, at 18:13:42
> thanks for the detailed reply.
>
> I wonder if there is a correlation between school (social) phobia (I had to be dragged kicking and screaming as a child to school) and migraine.
>
> I do know that panic disorder, social phobia, and sleep paralysis (which is the trigger for migraines for me) are associated. I came across this unusual case report which included something called "exploding head syndrome," which reminds me of how I feel when I have one of these sleep paralysis attacks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16643566&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
> And panic disorder is associated with an enlarged brain stem, and the brain stem is involved in sleep regulation (I have to get some sleep soon!).
>
> Nortriptyline by the way helps with the sleep paralysis etc. I would say it's a more powerful norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor than crazymeds suggests. It is about equal in potency to Strattera as an NRI, but the difference is that Strattera reaches peak plasma concentrations quickly, while nortrip takes about eight hours to do so. This is something I am aware of because if I fall asleep when the nortriptyline concentrations are too low, I get the sleep paralysis and resulting headache. On the other hand, when I took Strattera in the morning and nortrip at night, I had no such problems. (I had a similar experience on a high dose of Ritalin.)
>
> Nortriptyline would be interesting to combine with EmSam.
>
> -zOk, I just read about the exploding head syndrome. I have never heard of that. I need to read more, it sounds fascinating. But I am sure there is another word for it that people who suffer from this would use...
Do any of the triptans help your migraines? Or one of the ergot drugs? I have never tried an ergot drug, the triptans do it for me.donna
Posted by llrrrpp on June 23, 2006, at 7:58:53
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » zeugma, posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:53:04
Hi Donna,
I get all kinds of migraines, a couple of times a year, a few times brought on by caffeine withdrawal, but usually because of progestrerone drop during my cycle.4-5 times I've had classic migraines with aura. I got a visual scotoma (blind spot) that increased to cut off vision for the left side of space. Sometimes with tactile sensations- like half of my face had gone numb, or my fingers, one at a time. The visual/tactile sensory abnormalities always preceding the migraine by 30-60 minutes. This is my window of opportunity- if I can take 3 Aleve caplets and get some caffeine (Red Bull/ coffee) into my system quickly, I can reduce the severity of the migraine. Otherwise, I'm lying in bed, with my eye-mask on, in complete darkness, incredibly ill. Finally I throw up, feel a little better, and sleep for 12 hours, waking up in a funk that is not at all unlike depression.
Don't know much about sleep paralysis. I just wanted to say that Aleve + caffeine is my preferred migraine treatment.
-ll
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:24:06
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by llrrrpp on June 23, 2006, at 7:58:53
> Hi Donna,
> I get all kinds of migraines, a couple of times a year, a few times brought on by caffeine withdrawal, but usually because of progestrerone drop during my cycle.
>
> 4-5 times I've had classic migraines with aura. I got a visual scotoma (blind spot) that increased to cut off vision for the left side of space. Sometimes with tactile sensations- like half of my face had gone numb, or my fingers, one at a time. The visual/tactile sensory abnormalities always preceding the migraine by 30-60 minutes. This is my window of opportunity- if I can take 3 Aleve caplets and get some caffeine (Red Bull/ coffee) into my system quickly, I can reduce the severity of the migraine. Otherwise, I'm lying in bed, with my eye-mask on, in complete darkness, incredibly ill. Finally I throw up, feel a little better, and sleep for 12 hours, waking up in a funk that is not at all unlike depression.
>
> Don't know much about sleep paralysis. I just wanted to say that Aleve + caffeine is my preferred migraine treatment.
>
> -ll
Hey lllrrrpple!!! Nice to 'see' you again..
Boy, you are lucky to be able to get some relief from that combo. My insurance company makes me jump through hoops to get the triptan that ed uk told me about that I can use on the MAOI. Nothing, I mean nothing else works sometimes. Every now and then I get one that must not be a migraine that an aspirin or ibuprofen will nip. I always try that first. But I usually have to move on to the AXERT. I get them alot and they have ruined trips I was one before I found the triptans. I didn't realize the kind I get now was a migraine because they are not the kind like I use to get and still get with caffeine withdrawal, such as you describe. It is weird. I doubt I will ever again try to give up coffee...
I carry caffeine pills in case I ever get in a situation where I can't get a cup. Now, that is a drug dependence!
oh, I never have had an aura..donna
Posted by zeugma on June 24, 2006, at 15:57:25
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » zeugma, posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:53:04
Ok, I just read about the exploding head syndrome. I have never heard of that. I need to read more, it sounds fascinating. But I am sure there is another word for it that people who suffer from this would use...>>
good point, I myself would not refer to something as 'exploding head syndrome' unless it happened only once, and then I doubt I'd be referring to anything, if you get my drift.
Do any of the triptans help your migraines? Or one of the ergot drugs? I have never tried an ergot drug, the triptans do it for me.
>>Never tried an ergot, although a neuropsych specialist once recommended bromocriptine, which if I am not mistaken is an ergot drug. Buspirone, which is a serotonin agonist like the triptans, is a poor drug for anxiety, but helps among other things with my morning headaches. I did read (I'm a compulsive reader) of a study where buspirone helped anxious migraine sufferers. It helped with their migraines, I'm sure, more than their anxiety.
As you mentioned nortriptyline is used widely for migraines. I found Strattera to be very helpful with headaches as well. I have a feeling all the norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors would help with my headaches.
I have been really 'out of it' the last couple of days, which ALWAYS means I'm going to get bouts of sleep paralysis (I've had a few in the last few days, they perpetuate one another). At work I was having a hard time staying alert, then I looked in the mirror and saw that my pupils were really dilated (from provigil, and it wasn't working very well). So I decided to skip my noon dose, and then fell asleep several times on the train. However my tactic for dealing with this is to hold on to my book bag, so that when I fall asleep the shift in weight immediately awakens me. I took the provigil as soon as i got home and felt a little better. I still fell asleep about half an hour ago, and had a severe bout of sleep paralysis. It really feels like it damages my brain, so I try to struggle as little as possible; since the state of being awake but dreaming can't maintain itself for long, i gain the use of my body again after a few minutes (that are most unpleasant).
Then I took a vivarin, feel groggy but am less likely to fall asleep. vivarin plus the Provigil I took when I got home will keep me awake for a while (hopefully).
I never ran away from home. After my childhood hyperactivity subsided, I was so lethargic that going to the corner store felt like an expedition. (It still does.)
-z, extremely dazed, but did have 'interesting thoughts' before falling asleep this afternoon
Posted by Donna Louise on June 25, 2006, at 5:37:51
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by zeugma on June 24, 2006, at 15:57:25
> Ok, I just read about the exploding head syndrome. I have never heard of that. I need to read more, it sounds fascinating. But I am sure there is another word for it that people who suffer from this would use...>>
>
> good point, I myself would not refer to something as 'exploding head syndrome' unless it happened only once, and then I doubt I'd be referring to anything, if you get my drift.
>
> Do any of the triptans help your migraines? Or one of the ergot drugs? I have never tried an ergot drug, the triptans do it for me.
> >>
>
> Never tried an ergot, although a neuropsych specialist once recommended bromocriptine, which if I am not mistaken is an ergot drug. Buspirone, which is a serotonin agonist like the triptans, is a poor drug for anxiety, but helps among other things with my morning headaches. I did read (I'm a compulsive reader) of a study where buspirone helped anxious migraine sufferers. It helped with their migraines, I'm sure, more than their anxiety.
>
> As you mentioned nortriptyline is used widely for migraines. I found Strattera to be very helpful with headaches as well. I have a feeling all the norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors would help with my headaches.
>
> I have been really 'out of it' the last couple of days, which ALWAYS means I'm going to get bouts of sleep paralysis (I've had a few in the last few days, they perpetuate one another). At work I was having a hard time staying alert, then I looked in the mirror and saw that my pupils were really dilated (from provigil, and it wasn't working very well). So I decided to skip my noon dose, and then fell asleep several times on the train. However my tactic for dealing with this is to hold on to my book bag, so that when I fall asleep the shift in weight immediately awakens me. I took the provigil as soon as i got home and felt a little better. I still fell asleep about half an hour ago, and had a severe bout of sleep paralysis. It really feels like it damages my brain, so I try to struggle as little as possible; since the state of being awake but dreaming can't maintain itself for long, i gain the use of my body again after a few minutes (that are most unpleasant).
>
> Then I took a vivarin, feel groggy but am less likely to fall asleep. vivarin plus the Provigil I took when I got home will keep me awake for a while (hopefully).
>
> I never ran away from home. After my childhood hyperactivity subsided, I was so lethargic that going to the corner store felt like an expedition. (It still does.)
>
>
> -z, extremely dazed, but did have 'interesting thoughts' before falling asleep this afternoon
>
>I had not heard of bromocriptine being an ergot drug. I believe they are all derived from a plant fungus, oat fungus specifically I believe. I think alot of folks have died from injesting infected oats in the past. LSD is a derivitive of ergot I think. I think most ergot drugs add belladonna, another poison in overdose. Not sure how that is helpful for migraines.. I would need to explore that. But apparantly this ergot constricts blood vessels and has been used by midwives for centuries. Maybe that is the route by which modern science stumbled on to its other benefits. So I will have to look up how bromo would be an ergot drug. I thought it was mainly an AD agonist. But there are so many drugs, I get mixed up.
I took buspar for many years to avoid klonopin (finally gave up on that bad idea) and I can't remember but maybe I did not have migraines at that time. I also took strattera but not for that long and don't remember if I had headaches or not then either. I do know that I am having much less with the patch, only one since starting and none since going to the 9mg.
Did you indeed get a migraine after your current episode of sleep paralysis? ugh, I hate it so mucheven though I rarely get it. And only during afternoon naps, is that weird? What causes that anyway? For you it sounds like the podrome phase of migraine.donna
Posted by zeugma on June 27, 2006, at 6:50:52
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » zeugma, posted by Donna Louise on June 25, 2006, at 5:37:51
I think most ergot drugs add belladonna, another poison in overdose. Not sure how that is helpful for migraines.. I would need to explore that. But apparantly this ergot constricts blood vessels and has been used by midwives for centuries. Maybe that is the route by which modern science stumbled on to its other benefits.>>
The active chemical in belladonna is atropine, which does indeed constrict the blood vessels, as well as dilate the pupils (hence the name 'belladonna,' from its use by Renaissance Italian women). Amitriptyline is possibly the most effective antidepressant of all, and it is also the most atropine-like (causes dry mouth, constricted blood vessels). I think constriction of blood vessels helps migraine, not sure why. many narcoleptics have migraines, and migraine responds to stimulants (caffeine), I think maybe migraine is related to the partial arousal of the brainstem. (Serotonin itself got its name from its propensity to constrict the blood vessels.) The blood vessels constrict when danger is present (fight or flight response), and this is the result of the activated brainstem.
I think belladonna was the plant referred to in "Macbeth" when Banquo asks "have we eaten on the insane root That takes the reason prisoner?"
Besides being an antidote for certain kinds of nerve gas, it produces hallucinations in dosages above cosmetic/antidepressant levels (and is quite toxic as well).Ergot hallucinogens also produce extreme pupil dilation. LSD stimulates the serotonin system that normally is operative in wakefulness while also stimulating whatever systems are responsible for dreams, producing a state not dissimilar to hypnagogic hallucinations during sleep paralysis.
The headaches I get are occipital and dull, and invariably provoked by sleep paralysis. I also feel overstimulated- during the sleep paralysis itself, I can hear sounds from the outside world, but amplified/distorted- the refrigerator hum becomes deafening, and once a truck passed outside and the noise left me shattered. I think a change in routine, plus Provigil itself (it can cause cataplexy) has caused a great increase in the frequency of attacks. I have a bad headache right now, which explains the careless nature of this post.
-z
Posted by Donna Louise on June 27, 2006, at 19:22:44
In reply to Re: migraines, caffeine » Donna Louise, posted by zeugma on June 27, 2006, at 6:50:52
> I think most ergot drugs add belladonna, another poison in overdose. Not sure how that is helpful for migraines.. I would need to explore that. But apparantly this ergot constricts blood vessels and has been used by midwives for centuries. Maybe that is the route by which modern science stumbled on to its other benefits.>>
>
> The active chemical in belladonna is atropine, which does indeed constrict the blood vessels, as well as dilate the pupils (hence the name 'belladonna,' from its use by Renaissance Italian women). Amitriptyline is possibly the most effective antidepressant of all, and it is also the most atropine-like (causes dry mouth, constricted blood vessels). I think constriction of blood vessels helps migraine, not sure why. many narcoleptics have migraines, and migraine responds to stimulants (caffeine), I think maybe migraine is related to the partial arousal of the brainstem. (Serotonin itself got its name from its propensity to constrict the blood vessels.) The blood vessels constrict when danger is present (fight or flight response), and this is the result of the activated brainstem.
>
> I think belladonna was the plant referred to in "Macbeth" when Banquo asks "have we eaten on the insane root That takes the reason prisoner?"
> Besides being an antidote for certain kinds of nerve gas, it produces hallucinations in dosages above cosmetic/antidepressant levels (and is quite toxic as well).
>
> Ergot hallucinogens also produce extreme pupil dilation. LSD stimulates the serotonin system that normally is operative in wakefulness while also stimulating whatever systems are responsible for dreams, producing a state not dissimilar to hypnagogic hallucinations during sleep paralysis.
>
> The headaches I get are occipital and dull, and invariably provoked by sleep paralysis. I also feel overstimulated- during the sleep paralysis itself, I can hear sounds from the outside world, but amplified/distorted- the refrigerator hum becomes deafening, and once a truck passed outside and the noise left me shattered. I think a change in routine, plus Provigil itself (it can cause cataplexy) has caused a great increase in the frequency of attacks. I have a bad headache right now, which explains the careless nature of this post.
>
>
> -z
>I guess the reason caffeine helps is it constricts the blood vessels also. I know the worse migraines I get are if I quit drinking it and the vessels have a rebound dilation. And the triptan medications all involve the serotonin angle too.
That sleep paralysis sounds just awful. Is there anything that can prevent it from happening? It makes my trying to open my eyes while I am asleep sound like nothing at all. But the struggle just doing that is exhausting. I can't imagine what those defining noises must be like.
I had two headaches this week. The axert took care of the headache but I continue to feel very run down for a couple of days.
There has to be a connection with the serotonin and depression as you say. But I am sure that is just a part of it. I imagine there is a disproprortionate number of people with depression and migraines as opposed to those that just get migraines. Those would be interesting figures to know, which of course I don't, I am just musing.
This is the end of the thread.
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