![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 12:31:04
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 2:03:43
I think there are far too many people who are seeking "better living through chemistry" on this board and searching for euphoria rather than a normal continuum of moods. It is normal to be depressed at times. It is normal to be anxious at times. Medication is not going to take this away entirely. The only thing that will take this away is illegal drugs (and legal variants of illegal drugs like amphetamines and benzodiazepines, if used improperly and for the wrong reasons - which I think "euphoria-seeking" is very much so) but even those stop working at normal doses, requiring higher and higher doses until you tend to experience a paradoxical effect.
I refuse to apologize for my post. This is something I have noticed from many individuals on psycho-babble. Sometimes I marvel at the similarities I see here and between the crowd I used to abuse drugs with.
Is there ANYONE on this board who (like me) is simply looking to feel normal and not wishing to acheive a false euphoric state?
From the context (and subtext) of most of these posts, I find myself doubting it.
> Hi Tigereyes --
>
> > And if Nardil is still working, why are you already talking about switching medications?
>
> I think it was very clear in his post that he wasn't well enough on the current effect that Nardil gives him. My guess is that it's the reason why he is show interest about other antidepressants.
>
> > And why are you LOOKING for euphoria in a med rather than alleviation of depression?
>
> The fact is that he isn't looking to alleviate depression, but social phobia. What he want, like every social phobic, is to see the world/people without fear, to be inhibited.
> Maybe you didn't interpret 'Euphoria' in that way.
>
> > If you want euphoria, go to the local street corner and buy a baggie of powder and stop wasting your psychiatrist's time.
>
> Very constructive suggestion and here's mine: STOP WASTING OUR TIME. -> NOBODY is here to read some unsensitive and agressive sarcasm addressed to someone in difficulty who just asked our help very nicely.
>
> This is a place to share knowledge and help the people who need it. What your problem is, you may want to explain to MalcomS accompagned with your appologies.
>
> After that, I don't know, maybe you could try to LISTEN, UNDERSTAND then HELP someone ?
>
> I'm sure you have already help a lot of people here, but if it's the case WHAT THE HELL with this post ?
>
> Marty
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 15, 2006, at 12:58:07
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 12:31:04
> I think there are far too many people who are seeking "better living through chemistry" on this board and searching for euphoria rather than a normal continuum of moods. It is normal to be depressed at times. It is normal to be anxious at times. Medication is not going to take this away entirely. The only thing that will take this away is illegal drugs (and legal variants of illegal drugs like amphetamines and benzodiazepines, if used improperly and for the wrong reasons - which I think "euphoria-seeking" is very much so) but even those stop working at normal doses, requiring higher and higher doses until you tend to experience a paradoxical effect.
>
> I refuse to apologize for my post. This is something I have noticed from many individuals on psycho-babble. Sometimes I marvel at the similarities I see here and between the crowd I used to abuse drugs with.
>
> Is there ANYONE on this board who (like me) is simply looking to feel normal and not wishing to acheive a false euphoric state?
>
> From the context (and subtext) of most of these posts, I find myself doubting it.
>
> > Hi Tigereyes --
> >
> > > And if Nardil is still working, why are you already talking about switching medications?
> >
> > I think it was very clear in his post that he wasn't well enough on the current effect that Nardil gives him. My guess is that it's the reason why he is show interest about other antidepressants.
> >
> > > And why are you LOOKING for euphoria in a med rather than alleviation of depression?
> >
> > The fact is that he isn't looking to alleviate depression, but social phobia. What he want, like every social phobic, is to see the world/people without fear, to be inhibited.
> > Maybe you didn't interpret 'Euphoria' in that way.
> >
> > > If you want euphoria, go to the local street corner and buy a baggie of powder and stop wasting your psychiatrist's time.
> >
> > Very constructive suggestion and here's mine: STOP WASTING OUR TIME. -> NOBODY is here to read some unsensitive and agressive sarcasm addressed to someone in difficulty who just asked our help very nicely.
> >
> > This is a place to share knowledge and help the people who need it. What your problem is, you may want to explain to MalcomS accompagned with your appologies.
> >
> > After that, I don't know, maybe you could try to LISTEN, UNDERSTAND then HELP someone ?
> >
> > I'm sure you have already help a lot of people here, but if it's the case WHAT THE HELL with this post ?
> >
> > Marty
>
>Your right, being euphoric is not normal-read my post above. I agree, i don't want to get "high" i want to be able to function as a "normal" person, and this means, yes being depressed sometimes is normal! Some people (i'm not talking about anyone here) think they have to feel good or great all the time..this is not normal and it's simply unrealistic.
-Crazy Horse
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 13:28:44
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 12:31:04
Hi.
> Is there ANYONE on this board who (like me) is simply looking to feel normal and not wishing to acheive a false euphoric state?
>
> From the context (and subtext) of most of these posts, I find myself doubtingI guess you are entitled to your doubts.
Having been a poster here for a number of years, I must comment that I don't see very much of what you speak of. I can think of a few posters that might fit your characterization, but there aren't very many of them. I could count them on one hand.
What I see a lot of is the epiphany some people experience when they are finally able to experience life without depression. On the other hand, I also see some resentment by others of psychiatry in general because all of there problems are not solved by drugs. I guess they were expecting for drugs to deal with their issues. They learn that only people can deal with issues. Drugs don't deal with issues. However, drugs can help mitigate the depressive and anxious states that hinder or prevent them from dealing with issues and functioning in general. When one is severely depressed, every aspect of life becomes an issue. It is amazing to see how many of these issues evaporate when one achieves remission.
- Scott
Posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 14:18:32
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria » tygereyes, posted by Crazy Horse on April 15, 2006, at 12:58:07
<< I agree, i don't want to get "high" i want to be able to function as a "normal" person, and this means, yes being depressed sometimes is normal! Some people (i'm not talking about anyone here) think they have to feel good or great all the time..this is not normal and it's simply unrealistic. >>
Exactly ... I wonder if sometimes people who switch meds because they're "not working" switch for this very reason? I wonder if these people will spend the rest of their lives switching meds?
(Granted, I switch meds, too, but for some reason I have been so unlucky when it comes to side effects. Most psychiatric drugs cause nocturnal enuresis - yes, bed-wetting - because I have Interstitial Cystitis and for some reason there is a strange connection between my CNS receptors and my bladder. The only ones that haven't and that have stopped this effect in OTHER meds - though not SSRIs/SSNRIs, they cause it no matter what - are tricyclics, which I can't take b/c I have borderline personality disorder and they worsen my mood lability and anger/irritability to severe degrees and Parnate which, as you know, caused such profound insomnia and acne). Let's hope EMSAM does the trick. If not, I am seriously considering being off meds altogether.
Maybe I just have a different perspective, though, because I have borderline personality disorder with some kind of secondary mood disorder thrown in (they're not sure which). So I have accepted that my moods are going to be unstable and that I will have to manage that, and that there is no pill to take it away or make me euphoric 100% of the time. Unfortunately.
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 18:40:33
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 14:18:32
Hi MalcolmS -- Are you with us ?
I hope we helped you a little with what you are living.
For my part, I dont think you are someone who is searching for the ultimate buzz that will make you life feel like you were drugged on some street drugs. I see someone who MAY AT WORST be confused between a "Social phobic becoming Normal" and someone who become hypomanic. It's hard to say if in your case you were hypomanic or just so much relivate from social anxiety (and maybe some depression) that you express yourself in strong words that sounds LIKE hypomania. It is often the case with social phobic.
Here's what I think. In 2006 social phobic doesn't have specific medications targetting directly the mecanism of their mental disease and so social phobic need to rely, in part, on antidepressants, which help sometime greatly to reduce their pain. The thing is that is has been proove that much of AD ain't helping as much social phobic than belived in the past. In 80% of the case they initially help for some time before their effeciency decrease to a point where they aren't suffisient to make their social phobic user socially functional.
Some researched the reason for that and had discover that their is a link between social phobia and bipolarity. 80% of social phobic seems to be Bipolar type 2.5 (soon to be called type 4 in the next version of the DSM). This type says that the bipolar is very often becoming hypomanic when put on an AD, but otherwise doesn't have an history of hypomania.
So it's well posible that you are part of those 80% social phobic who is Bipolar 2.5 (yeah I know "2.5" sound VERY weird, but at this time it's called like this by bipolarity experts worldwide).
Now if it's the case you got to understand the phenomen and don't seek those state who aren't permanent and who doesn't help you for a longtime, usually finishing leaving you in a state of despair.
I repeat myself, but I don't thing you are, just like most of the 80% social phobic bipolar type 2.5, a 'thrill seeker' ... we all phobic social searching for an Ad -> WHO WORKS <-, speaking sometime the way you did on you first post.
Give time to Nardil, increase the dose to 90mg if after a time it's not working enough for you. Then if their is nothing to do with Nardil, do like everyone would do.. continue to fight for your right to live a functional, happy (not euphoric) life .. even if it means surfing more AD, like Parnate.
Hope you receive those post so we can share more on our experience, bad drug addiction and even maybe share some drug dealer phone number ;)=
Marty
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:05:47
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 18:40:33
I think the problem is that its pandora's box. People may not even know they are fitting into the category of wanting to feel better through medication. The problem is that our hedonic systems are set to associate good feelings and good experiences with certain choices.
So if somebody takes nardil and they feel euphoric, then that experience is going to be *permanantly* stored in some part of their brain. They will remember exactly how they felt. And perhaps they may even after they come down they may be feeling the way a normal person feels, but that will always pail in comparison to how they felt at their peak.
These are powerful drugs.
Its pandoras box, because after you have been exposed to a chemical shortcut, then it reframes your whole way of thinking. Thats why I'm here. My brain has a very hard time registering what is normal and abnormal, and so my thinking is always in terms of, how can this feeling be curtailed with a drug.
No I know, not everybody on this board fits this category, but I do.
I think it is very easy to get caught up in the cycle of associations.
I think while we try to make clear distinctions between legal drugs and illegal drugs there are similarities.
Many of the people who initially discovered the TCA's likened their actions in many ways to the amphetamines.
Granted, they don't fail the mouse lever press tests because they're not "fast acting", but it has been known that an undetermined subset of users report feeling better than well.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:09:48
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » MARTY, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:05:47
Nardil euphoria probably corresponds to significant deprivation of certain sleep cycles but, the system fights back, the cholinergic axis grows ever stronger to bring you down. Eventually sleep cycles normalize and the euphoria ends.
Now, if you decide to quit the drug, the homeostatic forces that have worked to counteract the drugs effects will work unnaposed, and you will be left with rebound depression, for a period of time.
You can't "never" beat the brain, it is "always" one step ahead.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:21:07
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 18:40:33
> Some researched the reason for that and had discover that their is a link between social phobia and bipolarity. 80% of social phobic seems to be Bipolar type 2.5 (soon to be called type 4 in the next version of the DSM). This type says that the bipolar is very often becoming hypomanic when put on an AD, but otherwise doesn't have an history of hypomania.
>
> So it's well posible that you are part of those 80% social phobic who is Bipolar 2.5 (yeah I know "2.5" sound VERY weird, but at this time it's called like this by bipolarity experts worldwide).
Where can I find more information on this?Is this one of Akiskal's conceptualizations?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:35:30
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:09:48
> Nardil euphoria probably corresponds to significant deprivation of certain sleep cycles but, the system fights back, the cholinergic axis grows ever stronger to bring you down. Eventually sleep cycles normalize and the euphoria ends.
That's a very interesting theory.
> Now, if you decide to quit the drug, the homeostatic forces that have worked to counteract the drugs effects will work unnaposed, and you will be left with rebound depression, for a period of time.
Do you feel that there is a tug of war between DA and ACh systems?
What is also interesting is that mania can occur upon the discontinuation of Nardil. This has happened to me.
> You can't "never" beat the brain, it is "always" one step ahead.
Then why do I always feel one step behind?
:-(
- Scott
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 21:56:12
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » MARTY, posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:21:07
Most of what you read on my last post was told to me by the president of the association of pdoc of Quebec (Canada?) who is a somity (very respected expert) in Canada regarding bipolar disorder spectrum. He is not really into research paper but you can try to find something about him: Dr.Bexton (not sure maybe Dr.Baxton)I just tried to found something revelant to what he explained me. I don't have many time but heres a thing I have found:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/bipolsp.htm
I wish I could have the full paper. Since I have a rendez-vous with Dr.Bexton on 30 May I may ask him to direct me to some papers regarding what he explained me.
If you find something Scott, please send us links to I can read on it. Having been diagnosed as being a Social Phobic Bipolar 2.5 who do have some hypomania initially each time I start an AD, I'm very much interested into the subject.
Marty
> Where can I find more information on this?
>
> Is this one of Akiskal's conceptualizations?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 21:59:50
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:09:48
Hi Link --I think I like your theory regarding ACh system adaptation. What do you think we could expect, in this theory, from someone who take some AntiCholinergic with his Nardil ? I did try some for 4 days.. and the feeling was strange.. I must say I did feel a little depressed. But was it related to your theory ?
what do you think ?
Marty
> Nardil euphoria probably corresponds to significant deprivation of certain sleep cycles but, the system fights back, the cholinergic axis grows ever stronger to bring you down. Eventually sleep cycles normalize and the euphoria ends.
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:33:12
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:35:30
Well its not fully my theory. I was reading about drug poop out withdrawl and rebound depression on somewhere on biopsychiatry.com
Withdrawl mania can happen, MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis too. Not sure about this.
Was your MAOI withdrawl mania euphoric or dysphoric ?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 21:59:50
Hmm, I know that anticholinergics are sometimes used to lessen the withdrawl from antidepressants.
A lot of antidepressants are functional anticholinergics. There is a serotoninergic/cholinergic axis, noradrenergic/cholinergic axis, dopaminergic/cholinergic axis.
So when you increase the monoamines, you are suppressing cholinergic function in certain ways. Discontinuation often involves a rebound in the cholinergic function, which can cause all sorts of reactions, so you may be able to reduce withdrawl by using an anticholinergic.
That is one take on it. I know anticholinergics are used to reduce TCA withdrawl.
The TCA's can do a double whammy on supressing cholinergic function. The molecules themselves are anticholinergics, but when combined with increase in noradrenaline, I would assume the axis gets a strong shift. That is one theory about depression is that it is an imballence in the choliergic/adrenergic axis, and that drugs can try and pull it more in the favor of noradrenergic dominance.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 13:02:01
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:33:12
> Withdrawl mania can happen, MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis too. Not sure about this.
For me, the discontinuation of Nardil produced a severe and psychotic mania.
> Was your MAOI withdrawl mania euphoric or dysphoric ?It was definitely dysphoric.
The severity of my mania led my doctors to eliminate bipolar II as a possible diagnosis.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 13:11:08
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
Along those lines, I think the reason Paxil and Effexor withdrawals are so difficult is because of the additional properties these drugs possess: anti-cholinergic for Paxil and pro-adrenergic for Effexor. The short half-life makes the withdrawal syndrome that much more acute.
- Scott
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 14:34:28
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:33:12
Not sure about who you're speaking to, SLS or me ?Marty
> Well its not fully my theory. I was reading about drug poop out withdrawl and rebound depression on somewhere on biopsychiatry.com
>
> Withdrawl mania can happen, MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis too. Not sure about this.
>
> Was your MAOI withdrawl mania euphoric or dysphoric ?
>
> Linkadge
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 14:38:08
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
Hmm okay, so if I have some anticholinergic at home I could try a small dose to see if it help with my MAOI (Nardil) withdrawal ? I though about trying that. I may try it and come back tell my experience results.Marty
> Hmm, I know that anticholinergics are sometimes used to lessen the withdrawl from antidepressants.
>
> A lot of antidepressants are functional anticholinergics. There is a serotoninergic/cholinergic axis, noradrenergic/cholinergic axis, dopaminergic/cholinergic axis.
>
> So when you increase the monoamines, you are suppressing cholinergic function in certain ways. Discontinuation often involves a rebound in the cholinergic function, which can cause all sorts of reactions, so you may be able to reduce withdrawl by using an anticholinergic.
>
> That is one take on it. I know anticholinergics are used to reduce TCA withdrawl.
>
> The TCA's can do a double whammy on supressing cholinergic function. The molecules themselves are anticholinergics, but when combined with increase in noradrenaline, I would assume the axis gets a strong shift. That is one theory about depression is that it is an imballence in the choliergic/adrenergic axis, and that drugs can try and pull it more in the favor of noradrenergic dominance.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:21:20
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
Diphenhydramine seems to be the most popular med for relieving AD withdrawal symptoms. It's an OTC antihistamine with prominent anticholinergic properties.
Ed
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 19:41:55
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:21:20
I remember cogentin was a nice medication. I was given cogentin for stiffness from risperidal which was to augment the celexa I was taking. My doctor said it was fine to take long term.
The thing was that I dropped the celexa and risperdal since the cogentin helped my mood more than either of the others. It helped acute panic attacks too. If I felt a panic attack coming on, where I would feel like I was being closed in, the cogentin would help help that. Strange.
I've never heard of it used in this manner, and perhaps it was abuse, but I found it interesting.I think I remember reading a theory about cholinergic disturbances in panic attacks, and how cholinergic agonists can provoke panic in susceptable individuals.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:55:23
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » ed_uk, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 19:41:55
Hi Link
Did you suffer problematic side effects with Cogentin? I once took the anticholinergic procyclidine (Kemadrin) - it made me very dumb!
Regards
Ed
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 20:50:32
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:55:23
Ahah It did it too for me. What was your dosage ? BTW a funny thing is that I have strange walking (like to much relax, walking not straigh) and when on procyclidine I walk like everyone.. just normal.. something just can imitate when off the med! lolMarty
> Hi Link
>
> Did you suffer problematic side effects with Cogentin? I once took the anticholinergic procyclidine (Kemadrin) - it made me very dumb!
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 20:56:08
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » ed_uk, posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 20:50:32
Hi Martin (Parn Star!)
I tried 2.5mg, 5mg and 10mg. It made me dumb at all doses!
>BTW a funny thing is that I have strange walking
Are you on an antipsychotic? They can affect walking.
Regards
Ed
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 21:00:02
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » MARTY, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 20:56:08
Yes I'm on Risperdal 2.5 Mg! very small dose, but don't change my walking until I put procyclidine.Since I'm in a Nardil withdrawal I may try the proclyclidine to test something. for details look at my post called "BRAIN ZAPPING = REM REBOUND COLLATERALS?" at...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060412/msgs/633828.html
Marty (not YES a Parn Star lol)> Hi Martin (Parn Star!)
>
> I tried 2.5mg, 5mg and 10mg. It made me dumb at all doses!
>
> >BTW a funny thing is that I have strange walking
>
> Are you on an antipsychotic? They can affect walking.
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2006, at 8:08:17
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:55:23
Oh, it made me dumb alright, but it was ok at the time, my job didn't require too much thinking, I was just feeling very calastrophobic.
Linkadge
Posted by jedi on April 21, 2006, at 2:31:22
In reply to Nardil Euphoria, posted by MalcolmS on April 14, 2006, at 0:42:42
> Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded but my question for folks out there who have either been on Nardil or have some knowledge of the drug is: will this state of euphoria return by increasing the dose of the med? Like I said, I am on 75 mgs and my doc is adamant that I not increase it. He even warned me that I am playing with fire and that I would get burned if I don't listen to him.
>
Hi,
My experience with Nardil was very similar to yours. When the med kicked in the first time it was like a tremendous weight had been lifted. I have used Nardil off and on (mostly on) for the better part of ten years. Several times it was the only thing that brought me out of the deep pit of depression. The initial feeling of euphoria was never really recaptured. I believe now that it was a medication induced switch to hypomania. When you have been almost unable to get out of bed through many med trials, believe me - hypomania can be euphoric. I think that my atypical depression is on that scale of bipolar depression that can be kicked into mania by certain medications. Right now I am off Nardil, but I'm prepared to go back on if the beast returns.
Good Luck,
Jedi
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