![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 1:38:09
In reply to Nardil Euphoria, posted by MalcolmS on April 14, 2006, at 0:42:42
Hi MalcolmS --
As I'm new to this forum can I ask you if you are too ?
I am sorry if some member answered you agressively without ANY reasons. Things like that doesn't look to happen often on Psycho-Babble.. it's the first time I see that anyway.
I think my 2 cents could interest you since I am a social phobic who as tried Nardil for 3 months and just stopped it yesterday morning.
Simply put, I had the exact same experience with Nardil as you do. I had those incredible weeks of happiness who made me tell myself "It's finally over.. the nightmare is OVER!" I was not very euphoric (euphoric is laughing right?)
I was just very well and happy. Happy to wake up and ask myself "Great! what will I do today ? how will I USE THIS DAY, let's SPEND IT WELL! a day is such a VALUABLE THING!" I was motivated and euthusiast about the future now that I was finally a "Normal person" .. I was asking myself "is it like that being normal ? I wake up, talk, move, love like a normal people.. so being normal SHOULD feel like that!"
I loved to see people.. I would go to the market just to enjoy being in a crowd without fear. I was able to be/walk in a crowd without thinking about people.. just thinking about everything and nothing.. while waiting to see my doc or the dentist I would enjoy to read a newspaper without taking care of people around me..
.. IT WAS A REVOLUTION.. A NEW LIFE ..And then, just like you, I felt I lost that feeling.. that the miracle has ended. For me it happend after I tried to withdraw from my antipsychotic "Risperdal" for 4 days. I started to be depressed to the point I cried two complete day. After I restarted Risperdal, things improoved to the point I was OK.. but the Nardil marvelous effect was gone and wasn't coming back. My heart was broken (yes I'm a man, but hey I got feelings too! lol ;) AND I WONDERED IF I WAS THE ONLY ONE TO "LOOSE THE NARDIL PARADISE" and if THERE WERE ANY WAY TO BRING IT BACK.
Heres the small things I know about it..
1- You're not alone. A lot of people taking a MAOI and especially NARDIL experience an episode of extreme wellbeing\euphoria not long (weeks) after they started the pill. Then after 1-4 months the intensity of the effect diminish to a stable level that is sometimes far from the initial level. My impression is that the stronger the inital 'paradise' effect, the harder the fall between the initial phase and the stable phase. So a person who would have feel a 2x less intense initial effect would have not feel as much as us the decrease of intensity, and maybe would not be alarmed by the change at all. Our problem seem to be that we had a too strong initial effect and now we are more focused on what we though Nardil was than what Nardil really do for us at the stable phase effect.
2. I understand you, loosing that 'dream' is really hard and painfull. BUT don't think that because Nardil is no more what you think it was, it can't help you anymore: After a while, after having accepted the huge decrease in intensity, something could happen. You could discover the real Nardil and discover that it can do what you thought it could do when you first decide to take it: Help you with your anxiety, your social phobia.. allowing you to live normally. Remember that when you decided to try Nardil you were not expecting 'Paradise and infinite happiness' ;) Be open to what Nardil can do for you now. Dont compare yourself with the 'euphoric' episode, try to compare yourself with you BEFORE, without taking Nardil.3. If in a couples of days or let's say 2 weeks if you got more patience then me ;) you don't feel comfortable enough with the new effect, INCREASING YOUR DOSE TO 90mg WOULD help a lot, if you can stand the increased side-effects.. yes it would help you, BUT not in the way you wish it could: the initial 'euphoria' will not come back. But you could access a better level of inhibition.. of innerself calm..
-----
That's how it happenned to me.1. I've understand that this phenomen was common and that I wasn't alone.
2. I've accepted the lost and started to concentrate on what the new, less intense, effect of Nardil could bring me.
3. I've upped the dose to 90mg to get the best
mg/bodyweight ratio so I could see the full potential of the real Nardil effect... Right now I've start yesterday to withdraw from Nardil because the side-effects was too strong on me. And I looking to try another MAOI, the little brother of Nardil called Parnate.
The reason I choose Parnate as my next antidepressant is that the 'amphetamine' effect (may be what you describe as 'euphoria') that Nardil initially gives you tend to stay. More energy, more motivation and that all last.
To be frank, I wonder if I choose to try Parnate and is 'amphetamine' effect because I'm searching to gain back that initial effect that Nardil gave me... knowing myself, it may well be the case. But if it were'nt for the side effects I would have stayed on Nardil ...
Be strong.. I KNOW how it feels like..
I understand what you mean by "a question of life or death" .. I urge you to choose life and to choose NARDIL FOR A SECOND TIME. In time you may well be surprised by this little joker.Btw, it should be because it touch me since I've lived the same thing not long ago.. but this is by far my longest post!! hope I didn't confused you.
Marty
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 2:03:43
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 14, 2006, at 3:27:49
Hi Tigereyes --
> And if Nardil is still working, why are you already talking about switching medications?
I think it was very clear in his post that he wasn't well enough on the current effect that Nardil gives him. My guess is that it's the reason why he is show interest about other antidepressants.
> And why are you LOOKING for euphoria in a med rather than alleviation of depression?
The fact is that he isn't looking to alleviate depression, but social phobia. What he want, like every social phobic, is to see the world/people without fear, to be inhibited.
Maybe you didn't interpret 'Euphoria' in that way.> If you want euphoria, go to the local street corner and buy a baggie of powder and stop wasting your psychiatrist's time.
Very constructive suggestion and here's mine: STOP WASTING OUR TIME. -> NOBODY is here to read some unsensitive and agressive sarcasm addressed to someone in difficulty who just asked our help very nicely.
This is a place to share knowledge and help the people who need it. What your problem is, you may want to explain to MalcomS accompagned with your appologies.
After that, I don't know, maybe you could try to LISTEN, UNDERSTAND then HELP someone ?
I'm sure you have already help a lot of people here, but if it's the case WHAT THE HELL with this post ?
Marty
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 6:57:41
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 2:03:43
Hi Marty.
You are likely to get one of those PBCs (Please be civil) advisories because of the construction of your phrases in your previous post. The guidelines of civility as they are enforced here are difficult to get the hang of.
If you characterize someone's words as being unsensitive and sarcastic, you are by implication saying that they are an unsensitive and sarcastic person. This is considered to be a put-down and usually earns a PBC.
It really doesn't matter if the post you react to is judged to be uncivil. Too "wrongs" don't make a right - that sort of thing.
You learn self-control here after awhile. I am not without my lapses, and cannot always understand the subtleties of the "rules". Don't take it personally if your post gets flagged.
Keep posting.
- Scott
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 15, 2006, at 8:16:06
In reply to Nardil Euphoria, posted by MalcolmS on April 14, 2006, at 0:42:42
> Hi: I started on Nardil about 2 1/2 months ago and for the first month or so...nothing. Then one fine day it kicked in and I thought I had finally found something that relieved the tremendous social anxiety I've felt for all these years (I'm a 41 yo male).
>
> I mean I was in a state of euphoria, unlike anything I had ever experienced before. I felt on top of the world, master of the universe, able to initiate conversations with anyone and for the first time in my life, I felt engaged with people around me and with the world. I mean it was f*cking FANTASTIC!!!
>
> Of course, this has come with some side effects, mainly a terrible case of insomnia (I was on 90 mgs and per my doc's strict instructions, am now on 75 mgs, taken all at once, in the AM). The only way to describe it was that was like I had 8 or 9 cocktails, without ever being drunk. Of course, my gait and driving started to become effected, so my doc reduced the dosage to the 75 mgs.
>
> I felt that I could literally handle anything, job interviews, and during this high I even enrolled in a bartending class (which starts this Monday).
>
> The thing is that now that initial euphoric state has now greatly diminished and I'm worried that I'm going to start regressing to the way I was pre-Nardil. (I even have started referring to my life as pre-Nardil and post-Nardil).
>
> My psych admitted that he didn't have any experience with Nardil at all and was very reluctant to prescribe a med that was potentially so dangerous (I OD'd about five years ago on Imipramine and came very close to actually dying).
>
> Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded but my question for folks out there who have either been on Nardil or have some knowledge of the drug is: will this state of euphoria return by increasing the dose of the med? Like I said, I am on 75 mgs and my doc is adamant that I not increase it. He even warned me that I am playing with fire and that I would get burned if I don't listen to him.
>
> I think that he needs to be educated but of course, like all docs he wants to play it safe. He says that I will have ups and downs and the only way to guage it's long-term effectiveness is to remain on a steady dose for a while (I'm not sure how long "a while" is).
>
> Again, I'm really afraid that I'm starting to regress to my pre-Nardil personality and I desperately don't want that to happen.
>
> Alternately, what about switching to another MAO like Parnate, etc?
>
> Again, the last few weeks have been like a dream to me. I've woken up every day asking myself: DO I EVEN DESERVE TO FEEL THIS WONDERFUL?
>
> Malcolm S.
Hi Malcolm,I can understand how you are feeling, because i've been through the same thing. I also suffer from social anxiety disorder, and it sucks, because i like being around people, talking, laughing, etc. , but without a well working AD I feel uncomfortable.
Here's my opinion/experience after 25 years of this illness and many, many medications.
The euphoria feeling,(I've had it too, both on Nardil and Parnate) will go away. I wish it would stay too, hell who wouldn't? Feeling "great" all the time, on top of the world, not afraid of anything..kind of hypomanic. This feeling unfortunately just isn't normal. Even "normal People" who claim they feel good all the time, don't feel like this. As with any drug/medication that great initial "buzz" evenually wanes. Actually, to be too euphoric can be dangerous, a person in a continous state of euphoria or mania can end up harming himself or others by taking abnormal risks...feeling invinceable, nothing can stop me attitude, etc.Sorry, but it's just a fact of life i'm affraid, the body/brains way of actually protecting us.
But the good new is that if you stay with your med (I found this to be true of Parnate) you can still feel good. You will even out, and become more "normal" , able to be social, increased confidence, less or no anxiety...you won't feel invinceable, but you can feel well.
Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. That Euphoric sate does feel great...I loved it too, but it's just not realistic to feel that way all the time. I wish you the very best, and i agree with the others, upping the dose eventually and counciling may help. Good Luck.-Crazy Horse
Posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 12:31:04
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 2:03:43
I think there are far too many people who are seeking "better living through chemistry" on this board and searching for euphoria rather than a normal continuum of moods. It is normal to be depressed at times. It is normal to be anxious at times. Medication is not going to take this away entirely. The only thing that will take this away is illegal drugs (and legal variants of illegal drugs like amphetamines and benzodiazepines, if used improperly and for the wrong reasons - which I think "euphoria-seeking" is very much so) but even those stop working at normal doses, requiring higher and higher doses until you tend to experience a paradoxical effect.
I refuse to apologize for my post. This is something I have noticed from many individuals on psycho-babble. Sometimes I marvel at the similarities I see here and between the crowd I used to abuse drugs with.
Is there ANYONE on this board who (like me) is simply looking to feel normal and not wishing to acheive a false euphoric state?
From the context (and subtext) of most of these posts, I find myself doubting it.
> Hi Tigereyes --
>
> > And if Nardil is still working, why are you already talking about switching medications?
>
> I think it was very clear in his post that he wasn't well enough on the current effect that Nardil gives him. My guess is that it's the reason why he is show interest about other antidepressants.
>
> > And why are you LOOKING for euphoria in a med rather than alleviation of depression?
>
> The fact is that he isn't looking to alleviate depression, but social phobia. What he want, like every social phobic, is to see the world/people without fear, to be inhibited.
> Maybe you didn't interpret 'Euphoria' in that way.
>
> > If you want euphoria, go to the local street corner and buy a baggie of powder and stop wasting your psychiatrist's time.
>
> Very constructive suggestion and here's mine: STOP WASTING OUR TIME. -> NOBODY is here to read some unsensitive and agressive sarcasm addressed to someone in difficulty who just asked our help very nicely.
>
> This is a place to share knowledge and help the people who need it. What your problem is, you may want to explain to MalcomS accompagned with your appologies.
>
> After that, I don't know, maybe you could try to LISTEN, UNDERSTAND then HELP someone ?
>
> I'm sure you have already help a lot of people here, but if it's the case WHAT THE HELL with this post ?
>
> Marty
Posted by Crazy Horse on April 15, 2006, at 12:58:07
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 12:31:04
> I think there are far too many people who are seeking "better living through chemistry" on this board and searching for euphoria rather than a normal continuum of moods. It is normal to be depressed at times. It is normal to be anxious at times. Medication is not going to take this away entirely. The only thing that will take this away is illegal drugs (and legal variants of illegal drugs like amphetamines and benzodiazepines, if used improperly and for the wrong reasons - which I think "euphoria-seeking" is very much so) but even those stop working at normal doses, requiring higher and higher doses until you tend to experience a paradoxical effect.
>
> I refuse to apologize for my post. This is something I have noticed from many individuals on psycho-babble. Sometimes I marvel at the similarities I see here and between the crowd I used to abuse drugs with.
>
> Is there ANYONE on this board who (like me) is simply looking to feel normal and not wishing to acheive a false euphoric state?
>
> From the context (and subtext) of most of these posts, I find myself doubting it.
>
> > Hi Tigereyes --
> >
> > > And if Nardil is still working, why are you already talking about switching medications?
> >
> > I think it was very clear in his post that he wasn't well enough on the current effect that Nardil gives him. My guess is that it's the reason why he is show interest about other antidepressants.
> >
> > > And why are you LOOKING for euphoria in a med rather than alleviation of depression?
> >
> > The fact is that he isn't looking to alleviate depression, but social phobia. What he want, like every social phobic, is to see the world/people without fear, to be inhibited.
> > Maybe you didn't interpret 'Euphoria' in that way.
> >
> > > If you want euphoria, go to the local street corner and buy a baggie of powder and stop wasting your psychiatrist's time.
> >
> > Very constructive suggestion and here's mine: STOP WASTING OUR TIME. -> NOBODY is here to read some unsensitive and agressive sarcasm addressed to someone in difficulty who just asked our help very nicely.
> >
> > This is a place to share knowledge and help the people who need it. What your problem is, you may want to explain to MalcomS accompagned with your appologies.
> >
> > After that, I don't know, maybe you could try to LISTEN, UNDERSTAND then HELP someone ?
> >
> > I'm sure you have already help a lot of people here, but if it's the case WHAT THE HELL with this post ?
> >
> > Marty
>
>Your right, being euphoric is not normal-read my post above. I agree, i don't want to get "high" i want to be able to function as a "normal" person, and this means, yes being depressed sometimes is normal! Some people (i'm not talking about anyone here) think they have to feel good or great all the time..this is not normal and it's simply unrealistic.
-Crazy Horse
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 13:28:44
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 12:31:04
Hi.
> Is there ANYONE on this board who (like me) is simply looking to feel normal and not wishing to acheive a false euphoric state?
>
> From the context (and subtext) of most of these posts, I find myself doubtingI guess you are entitled to your doubts.
Having been a poster here for a number of years, I must comment that I don't see very much of what you speak of. I can think of a few posters that might fit your characterization, but there aren't very many of them. I could count them on one hand.
What I see a lot of is the epiphany some people experience when they are finally able to experience life without depression. On the other hand, I also see some resentment by others of psychiatry in general because all of there problems are not solved by drugs. I guess they were expecting for drugs to deal with their issues. They learn that only people can deal with issues. Drugs don't deal with issues. However, drugs can help mitigate the depressive and anxious states that hinder or prevent them from dealing with issues and functioning in general. When one is severely depressed, every aspect of life becomes an issue. It is amazing to see how many of these issues evaporate when one achieves remission.
- Scott
Posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 14:18:32
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria » tygereyes, posted by Crazy Horse on April 15, 2006, at 12:58:07
<< I agree, i don't want to get "high" i want to be able to function as a "normal" person, and this means, yes being depressed sometimes is normal! Some people (i'm not talking about anyone here) think they have to feel good or great all the time..this is not normal and it's simply unrealistic. >>
Exactly ... I wonder if sometimes people who switch meds because they're "not working" switch for this very reason? I wonder if these people will spend the rest of their lives switching meds?
(Granted, I switch meds, too, but for some reason I have been so unlucky when it comes to side effects. Most psychiatric drugs cause nocturnal enuresis - yes, bed-wetting - because I have Interstitial Cystitis and for some reason there is a strange connection between my CNS receptors and my bladder. The only ones that haven't and that have stopped this effect in OTHER meds - though not SSRIs/SSNRIs, they cause it no matter what - are tricyclics, which I can't take b/c I have borderline personality disorder and they worsen my mood lability and anger/irritability to severe degrees and Parnate which, as you know, caused such profound insomnia and acne). Let's hope EMSAM does the trick. If not, I am seriously considering being off meds altogether.
Maybe I just have a different perspective, though, because I have borderline personality disorder with some kind of secondary mood disorder thrown in (they're not sure which). So I have accepted that my moods are going to be unstable and that I will have to manage that, and that there is no pill to take it away or make me euphoric 100% of the time. Unfortunately.
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 18:40:33
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria, posted by tygereyes on April 15, 2006, at 14:18:32
Hi MalcolmS -- Are you with us ?
I hope we helped you a little with what you are living.
For my part, I dont think you are someone who is searching for the ultimate buzz that will make you life feel like you were drugged on some street drugs. I see someone who MAY AT WORST be confused between a "Social phobic becoming Normal" and someone who become hypomanic. It's hard to say if in your case you were hypomanic or just so much relivate from social anxiety (and maybe some depression) that you express yourself in strong words that sounds LIKE hypomania. It is often the case with social phobic.
Here's what I think. In 2006 social phobic doesn't have specific medications targetting directly the mecanism of their mental disease and so social phobic need to rely, in part, on antidepressants, which help sometime greatly to reduce their pain. The thing is that is has been proove that much of AD ain't helping as much social phobic than belived in the past. In 80% of the case they initially help for some time before their effeciency decrease to a point where they aren't suffisient to make their social phobic user socially functional.
Some researched the reason for that and had discover that their is a link between social phobia and bipolarity. 80% of social phobic seems to be Bipolar type 2.5 (soon to be called type 4 in the next version of the DSM). This type says that the bipolar is very often becoming hypomanic when put on an AD, but otherwise doesn't have an history of hypomania.
So it's well posible that you are part of those 80% social phobic who is Bipolar 2.5 (yeah I know "2.5" sound VERY weird, but at this time it's called like this by bipolarity experts worldwide).
Now if it's the case you got to understand the phenomen and don't seek those state who aren't permanent and who doesn't help you for a longtime, usually finishing leaving you in a state of despair.
I repeat myself, but I don't thing you are, just like most of the 80% social phobic bipolar type 2.5, a 'thrill seeker' ... we all phobic social searching for an Ad -> WHO WORKS <-, speaking sometime the way you did on you first post.
Give time to Nardil, increase the dose to 90mg if after a time it's not working enough for you. Then if their is nothing to do with Nardil, do like everyone would do.. continue to fight for your right to live a functional, happy (not euphoric) life .. even if it means surfing more AD, like Parnate.
Hope you receive those post so we can share more on our experience, bad drug addiction and even maybe share some drug dealer phone number ;)=
Marty
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:05:47
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 18:40:33
I think the problem is that its pandora's box. People may not even know they are fitting into the category of wanting to feel better through medication. The problem is that our hedonic systems are set to associate good feelings and good experiences with certain choices.
So if somebody takes nardil and they feel euphoric, then that experience is going to be *permanantly* stored in some part of their brain. They will remember exactly how they felt. And perhaps they may even after they come down they may be feeling the way a normal person feels, but that will always pail in comparison to how they felt at their peak.
These are powerful drugs.
Its pandoras box, because after you have been exposed to a chemical shortcut, then it reframes your whole way of thinking. Thats why I'm here. My brain has a very hard time registering what is normal and abnormal, and so my thinking is always in terms of, how can this feeling be curtailed with a drug.
No I know, not everybody on this board fits this category, but I do.
I think it is very easy to get caught up in the cycle of associations.
I think while we try to make clear distinctions between legal drugs and illegal drugs there are similarities.
Many of the people who initially discovered the TCA's likened their actions in many ways to the amphetamines.
Granted, they don't fail the mouse lever press tests because they're not "fast acting", but it has been known that an undetermined subset of users report feeling better than well.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:09:48
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » MARTY, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:05:47
Nardil euphoria probably corresponds to significant deprivation of certain sleep cycles but, the system fights back, the cholinergic axis grows ever stronger to bring you down. Eventually sleep cycles normalize and the euphoria ends.
Now, if you decide to quit the drug, the homeostatic forces that have worked to counteract the drugs effects will work unnaposed, and you will be left with rebound depression, for a period of time.
You can't "never" beat the brain, it is "always" one step ahead.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:21:07
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 18:40:33
> Some researched the reason for that and had discover that their is a link between social phobia and bipolarity. 80% of social phobic seems to be Bipolar type 2.5 (soon to be called type 4 in the next version of the DSM). This type says that the bipolar is very often becoming hypomanic when put on an AD, but otherwise doesn't have an history of hypomania.
>
> So it's well posible that you are part of those 80% social phobic who is Bipolar 2.5 (yeah I know "2.5" sound VERY weird, but at this time it's called like this by bipolarity experts worldwide).
Where can I find more information on this?Is this one of Akiskal's conceptualizations?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:35:30
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:09:48
> Nardil euphoria probably corresponds to significant deprivation of certain sleep cycles but, the system fights back, the cholinergic axis grows ever stronger to bring you down. Eventually sleep cycles normalize and the euphoria ends.
That's a very interesting theory.
> Now, if you decide to quit the drug, the homeostatic forces that have worked to counteract the drugs effects will work unnaposed, and you will be left with rebound depression, for a period of time.
Do you feel that there is a tug of war between DA and ACh systems?
What is also interesting is that mania can occur upon the discontinuation of Nardil. This has happened to me.
> You can't "never" beat the brain, it is "always" one step ahead.
Then why do I always feel one step behind?
:-(
- Scott
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 21:56:12
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » MARTY, posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:21:07
Most of what you read on my last post was told to me by the president of the association of pdoc of Quebec (Canada?) who is a somity (very respected expert) in Canada regarding bipolar disorder spectrum. He is not really into research paper but you can try to find something about him: Dr.Bexton (not sure maybe Dr.Baxton)I just tried to found something revelant to what he explained me. I don't have many time but heres a thing I have found:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/bipolsp.htm
I wish I could have the full paper. Since I have a rendez-vous with Dr.Bexton on 30 May I may ask him to direct me to some papers regarding what he explained me.
If you find something Scott, please send us links to I can read on it. Having been diagnosed as being a Social Phobic Bipolar 2.5 who do have some hypomania initially each time I start an AD, I'm very much interested into the subject.
Marty
> Where can I find more information on this?
>
> Is this one of Akiskal's conceptualizations?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 21:59:50
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 19:09:48
Hi Link --I think I like your theory regarding ACh system adaptation. What do you think we could expect, in this theory, from someone who take some AntiCholinergic with his Nardil ? I did try some for 4 days.. and the feeling was strange.. I must say I did feel a little depressed. But was it related to your theory ?
what do you think ?
Marty
> Nardil euphoria probably corresponds to significant deprivation of certain sleep cycles but, the system fights back, the cholinergic axis grows ever stronger to bring you down. Eventually sleep cycles normalize and the euphoria ends.
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:33:12
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 15, 2006, at 19:35:30
Well its not fully my theory. I was reading about drug poop out withdrawl and rebound depression on somewhere on biopsychiatry.com
Withdrawl mania can happen, MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis too. Not sure about this.
Was your MAOI withdrawl mania euphoric or dysphoric ?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by MARTY on April 15, 2006, at 21:59:50
Hmm, I know that anticholinergics are sometimes used to lessen the withdrawl from antidepressants.
A lot of antidepressants are functional anticholinergics. There is a serotoninergic/cholinergic axis, noradrenergic/cholinergic axis, dopaminergic/cholinergic axis.
So when you increase the monoamines, you are suppressing cholinergic function in certain ways. Discontinuation often involves a rebound in the cholinergic function, which can cause all sorts of reactions, so you may be able to reduce withdrawl by using an anticholinergic.
That is one take on it. I know anticholinergics are used to reduce TCA withdrawl.
The TCA's can do a double whammy on supressing cholinergic function. The molecules themselves are anticholinergics, but when combined with increase in noradrenaline, I would assume the axis gets a strong shift. That is one theory about depression is that it is an imballence in the choliergic/adrenergic axis, and that drugs can try and pull it more in the favor of noradrenergic dominance.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 13:02:01
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:33:12
> Withdrawl mania can happen, MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis too. Not sure about this.
For me, the discontinuation of Nardil produced a severe and psychotic mania.
> Was your MAOI withdrawl mania euphoric or dysphoric ?It was definitely dysphoric.
The severity of my mania led my doctors to eliminate bipolar II as a possible diagnosis.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 13:11:08
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
Along those lines, I think the reason Paxil and Effexor withdrawals are so difficult is because of the additional properties these drugs possess: anti-cholinergic for Paxil and pro-adrenergic for Effexor. The short half-life makes the withdrawal syndrome that much more acute.
- Scott
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 14:34:28
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:33:12
Not sure about who you're speaking to, SLS or me ?Marty
> Well its not fully my theory. I was reading about drug poop out withdrawl and rebound depression on somewhere on biopsychiatry.com
>
> Withdrawl mania can happen, MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis too. Not sure about this.
>
> Was your MAOI withdrawl mania euphoric or dysphoric ?
>
> Linkadge
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 14:38:08
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
Hmm okay, so if I have some anticholinergic at home I could try a small dose to see if it help with my MAOI (Nardil) withdrawal ? I though about trying that. I may try it and come back tell my experience results.Marty
> Hmm, I know that anticholinergics are sometimes used to lessen the withdrawl from antidepressants.
>
> A lot of antidepressants are functional anticholinergics. There is a serotoninergic/cholinergic axis, noradrenergic/cholinergic axis, dopaminergic/cholinergic axis.
>
> So when you increase the monoamines, you are suppressing cholinergic function in certain ways. Discontinuation often involves a rebound in the cholinergic function, which can cause all sorts of reactions, so you may be able to reduce withdrawl by using an anticholinergic.
>
> That is one take on it. I know anticholinergics are used to reduce TCA withdrawl.
>
> The TCA's can do a double whammy on supressing cholinergic function. The molecules themselves are anticholinergics, but when combined with increase in noradrenaline, I would assume the axis gets a strong shift. That is one theory about depression is that it is an imballence in the choliergic/adrenergic axis, and that drugs can try and pull it more in the favor of noradrenergic dominance.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:21:20
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:40:44
Diphenhydramine seems to be the most popular med for relieving AD withdrawal symptoms. It's an OTC antihistamine with prominent anticholinergic properties.
Ed
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 19:41:55
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:21:20
I remember cogentin was a nice medication. I was given cogentin for stiffness from risperidal which was to augment the celexa I was taking. My doctor said it was fine to take long term.
The thing was that I dropped the celexa and risperdal since the cogentin helped my mood more than either of the others. It helped acute panic attacks too. If I felt a panic attack coming on, where I would feel like I was being closed in, the cogentin would help help that. Strange.
I've never heard of it used in this manner, and perhaps it was abuse, but I found it interesting.I think I remember reading a theory about cholinergic disturbances in panic attacks, and how cholinergic agonists can provoke panic in susceptable individuals.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:55:23
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » ed_uk, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 19:41:55
Hi Link
Did you suffer problematic side effects with Cogentin? I once took the anticholinergic procyclidine (Kemadrin) - it made me very dumb!
Regards
Ed
Posted by MARTY on April 16, 2006, at 20:50:32
In reply to Re: Nardil Euphoria MalcolmS » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:55:23
Ahah It did it too for me. What was your dosage ? BTW a funny thing is that I have strange walking (like to much relax, walking not straigh) and when on procyclidine I walk like everyone.. just normal.. something just can imitate when off the med! lolMarty
> Hi Link
>
> Did you suffer problematic side effects with Cogentin? I once took the anticholinergic procyclidine (Kemadrin) - it made me very dumb!
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
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