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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:34:24
In reply to Re: Yes » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 21:59:11
Z,
You've suffered 'brain zaps'?
And on the subject of SSRIs......
For me, SSRIs reduce the number of thoughts coming into my head. They create an almost serene detachment from the reality of my life. They numb the pain of negative emotions. They allow me to ignore thoughts that I don't want to have (OCD etc). They reduce empathy and motivation. Time passes by unnoticed. Things never seem to get done. Everything gets left until the last minute. I dropped out of university.........but at least I'm calm :) Not quite happy, but I do at least feel pleasant. I take 80mg citalopram (Celexa). I do find it 'anxiolytic' - but at a cost.
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:36:35
In reply to Re: oh » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 16:12:11
APs make me feel dreadful, just awful. I feel good on codeine, pleasant, cheerful, friendly, warm......
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:46:05
In reply to Re: 150mg » wildcard11, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:31:44
Hi Link
I quit Effexor XR 150mg without tapering. I definitely suffered some withdrawal symptoms, but nothing severe. I guess I was lucky :)
Ed
Posted by zeugma on March 3, 2006, at 16:56:32
In reply to Re: Yes » zeugma, posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:34:24
> Z,
>
> You've suffered 'brain zaps'?yes, it's an electrical feeling. When i started getting them (at sleep induction) I thought it was because I was sleeping too close to an electrical outlet, and started sleeping with my head at the foot of the bed. (!) of course this made no difference. and NB i was not on any drugs whatsoever.
>
> And on the subject of SSRIs......
>
> For me, SSRIs reduce the number of thoughts coming into my head. They create an almost serene detachment from the reality of my life. They numb the pain of negative emotions. They allow me to ignore thoughts that I don't want to have (OCD etc). They reduce empathy and motivation. Time passes by unnoticed. Things never seem to get done. Everything gets left until the last minute. I dropped out of university.........but at least I'm calm :) Not quite happy, but I do at least feel pleasant. I take 80mg citalopram (Celexa). I do find it 'anxiolytic' - but at a cost.
>I think that is anxiolysis. TCA's, in my opinion, are less anxiolytic, less numbing, more physical side effects (dry mouth, and cardiac abnormalities- to which tolerance often develops).
-z
> Kind regards
>
> Ed
Posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 17:52:20
In reply to Re: Yes » ed_uk, posted by zeugma on March 3, 2006, at 16:56:32
Hi Z :)
>yes, it's an electrical feeling. When i started getting them (at sleep induction) I thought it was because I was sleeping too close to an electrical outlet, and started sleeping with my head at the foot of the bed. (!) of course this made no difference. and NB i was not on any drugs whatsoever.
Do you think your brain zaps are related to those experienced during SRI withdrawal?
>I think that is anxiolysis.
Me too. In terms of side effects, SSRIs are more insidious than TCAs (for me).
Ed
Posted by zeugma on March 3, 2006, at 18:07:08
In reply to Re: Yes » zeugma, posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 17:52:20
> Hi Z :)
>
> >yes, it's an electrical feeling. When i started getting them (at sleep induction) I thought it was because I was sleeping too close to an electrical outlet, and started sleeping with my head at the foot of the bed. (!) of course this made no difference. and NB i was not on any drugs whatsoever.
>
> Do you think your brain zaps are related to those experienced during SRI withdrawal?
>
It could be. I think it's a result of the serotonin and norepinephrine systems being too weak and the cholinergic system overpowering it. When people wothdraw from an SSRI the serotonin system is depleted, and they enter REM prematurely, experiencing those 'zap' sensations from cholinergic hypersensitivity, which results from the sudden aminergic weakness.
> >I think that is anxiolysis.
>
> Me too. In terms of side effects, SSRIs are more insidious than TCAs (for me).
>I agree. The TCA side effects are apparent from the beginning, and usually recede with time.
-z
> Ed
Posted by Jakeman on March 3, 2006, at 19:33:19
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by linkadge on February 27, 2006, at 15:09:45
Link,
While I don't entirely agree with your argument against SSRI's I thought I'd throw in a historical anecdote. In the mid 19th century a common treatment for depression was a pill which contained mercury. Abraham Lincoln took them for several years until the adverse side effects became too debilitating.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/linc.html
warm regards, ~Jake
Posted by Jakeman on March 3, 2006, at 20:18:58
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » yxibow, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 1, 2006, at 10:32:38
Chairman,
I enjoy reading your posts regarding depression and the use of opiods. I tend to agree with the thrust of your arguments. My main question though is how do you obtain these? How do you get a prescription for buprenorphine? From my experience in the US, many doctors are even skittish about prescribing Valium.
warm regards ~Jake
> Why not do a search on medline for opioids in depression, especially buprenorphine? There are plenty of studies documenting the efficacy of psychostimulants for depression, especially in the most debilitating cases (post-stroke, HIV, etc).
>
> Why would it be malpractice to treat depression with an opioid?
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 21:17:04
In reply to Re: 150mg » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:46:05
How long was it though, until you went on a new medication ??
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 21:20:50
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » linkadge, posted by Jakeman on March 3, 2006, at 19:33:19
Thats common. The current generation marvels at its present, and laughs at its past.
I hope to live long enough to see an altered conscenious on the role of SSRI's in psychiatry.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 21:23:01
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by Jakeman on March 3, 2006, at 20:18:58
I havn't taken a SSRI in almost a year now. I still get brain zaps not too unregularly. I usually wake up in a paniced state and have to move my eyes around for a while for it to subside.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 22:01:43
In reply to Re: oh » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 16:12:11
Heh. Nope, I actually often take less than prescribed because it barely works, and sometimes I like to be able to eat a full meal.
This isn't really "my theory". I cannot think of what other conclusion to draw from the things I have read, people I have spoken with, and experiences I have had.
Have you ever read anything by Stanton Peele? www.peele.net
Or Thomas Szasz?
www.szasz.com
Posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2006, at 22:40:02
In reply to Re: oh » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 22:01:43
So what about if you start an SSRI and have absolutely no side effects from it does this mean that if you stick with it and increase you dose it will work or does it mean it won't. Not taking any more after this one or anything for depression. I will just take my valium. And for the record I was on cymbalta 60mg for over three months last year did nothing for depression but did get rid of aches and pains and no start up effects and I just stopped it with no withdrawal either.No brain zaps no nothing. Fondly, Phillipa ps am I the minority or the majority Hummmmmm
Posted by musky on March 3, 2006, at 23:59:34
In reply to Re: Yes » zeugma, posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:34:24
These are all the same drug.. in other words they all block what is SUPPOSED to happen in the brain.
That is scary.
Ive been on Remeron for just about 3yrs and I have never felt good on it. I believe that cognitive therapy and belief of your self and self love is all that you need to overcome issues in life..
These drugs just mask the pain... they dont get at the root of the problem.. That is the issue here.
Ask these doctors how come they dont do blood tests for serontonin levels that they say are supposedly low in depressed people??? just like you would test ones iron levels or cholesterol levels.
I work in a research lab and we study how cells interact and boy you would be really scared if you only knew what antidepressants do to the brains neurotransmitters... It is not right.
Its all about money and a quick fix society.
To me I would rather cry and be depressed and FEEL things than be numbed out. Sure you are not crying or spiraling on these drugs , but that is just my point, you are not ANYTHING. but numb.
WE are human beings for God's sake and need to go through emotions... I dont care how bad it gets for me I will get off my Remeron and get back to my normal brain again.
I ncever ever had weird thoughts go through my brain and frightening fantasies until I started REmeron. THank God I found an acupuncturist who is helping me get off this.. It really works!!! I suggest this to anyone out there who wants to get of medication... There is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak!!!Musky
Posted by yxibow on March 4, 2006, at 0:38:25
In reply to Re: To Linkadge » deniseuk, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 16:00:02
> But define "antidepressants work". If by work you mean taking a drug produces some very favorable short term effects, then perhaps they do.
>
> But if by work, you mean that the drug gets to the root of the problem, and produces a sustainable, consistant, and dependable relief from the depressive illness, then I'd disagree.You have hit on at least partially a point which I will continue -- the brain... if you are going to believe the biochemical model of neuropsychiatric illness (I prefer to call them than then "mental illness" which tends to have a perjorative sense) then I will continue.
The brain is an ever changing device. I have OCD, which I will have for the rest of my lifetime, due to no fault of anybody but genetics. I have anxiety, and depression due to the same. There will always be ups and downs. So essentially, you're aiming at a moving target.
It is no suprise that a particular drug will work for a particular period of time, because of this moving target. Also over the course of taking the drug, neurons and the like are in a constant, but slow change and flux.
There is no drug that, for the majority of people will "produce.. a sustainable, consistant, and dependable relief", short of possibly those with mild dysthmia or just random good luck.
Short of brain surgery, there is no "getting to the root of the problem" because of this moving target. You can get a good... sometimes even great approximation, but nothing is going to be 100%. Nothing is ever guaranteed in life. Life is for living, and sometimes things suck. Things suck for me horribly now. Things probably suck for a number of people on here horribly. Then discouragement sets in, and trials of drugs are not given long enough time periods. And again, the brain is still a moving target, just like any other part of the body.
So do SSRIs work ? They work for what they are intended for -- relief from depression and anxiety with the informed consent and predisposed knowledge that they, just like any other antidepressant or anxiolytic, could eventually not work at some point.
I think that, if anything, is the root of the matter.
Posted by yxibow on March 4, 2006, at 0:54:25
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » yxibow, posted by tizza on March 1, 2006, at 17:09:32
> Jay that was the worst combo for me by far, atypical's (zyprexa and seroquel) taken at different periods, with AD's was horrendous. I know eveyone is different and i suppose it depends what you are being treated for but that just put me into to a stupor and i cant believe i held my job down, plus a load of other crazy sh*t that happened at the time, it's just so freaky how differently we all react. PaulIts no question -- we all on here react differently to things. Thats why this argument, while fascinating is chasing a moving target. Unless someone on this thread is an identical twin, I doubt the same drug regiment will work for that individual for any length of time. Not to mention, that everyone here has different DSM diagnoses. So, I'm sorry to hear your combination did not work.
Its worth noting, I dont know how much of a dose of Zyprexa or Seroquel you had, but they can definately put people in a stupor, and that varies by the individual. Seroquel puts me into a stupor, but I have to take it (no, I don't have a schizophreniform disorder), regardless. Its hard pushing myself through the morning. High doses, especially Seroquel have a very drowsy component of their compound -- its just the way it is.
You will probably eventually benefit from some other treatment. If we all wait around long enough, and this country doesn't go to * in a handbasket, some genetic and stem cell research will eventually produce the future drugs of tomorrow. But its also about therapy other than drugs too, psychotherapy, reintegration into the workforce and the world around you (at least for me).
So, do SSRIs work -- for some people yes, for some no. But I will reiterate that I think it does a disservice to say they do not work at all for those who are teetering on the brink of things and reading these discussions and thinking that their SSRI will suddenly stop at exactly 12 midnight. There is always hope. And hope comes from within. And maybe I say this as do as I say but not as I do -- I know I don't always have hope. But I have to. Life is for living, since there really is no explanation for it, other than what each individual wants to believe.
Good tidings
Jay
Posted by tizza on March 4, 2006, at 1:10:49
In reply to Re: 150mg » wildcard11, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:31:44
> I just find that hard to believe. How long before you went onto another antidepressant ? Don't mean to be a dweeb, but I'd just have to see it to believe it.
>
>
> Effexor is so addicting for some people that they have to start counting the pelets in the 37.5mg capsules.
>
That's what I did link to no avail, it was beyond description what I went through but I'm sure everyone knows what I mean except for wildcard11, he is just so bloody lucky, I wish it was that easy for me. Paul
> Linkadge
Posted by yxibow on March 4, 2006, at 1:14:34
In reply to Re:Is advertising Meds allowed in the US? » wildcard11, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:25:09
> The only AD they won't advertise right off the bat are MAOIs. Those you have to jump through flaming hoops while juggling baby seals to get permission to take. It is easier to get an Rx for d-amphetamine.
That's preposterous. It's not easier to get an Rx for a triplicate medication and that varies from state to state. Nobody is going to give you Concerta unless you're properly evaluated.
MAOIs are not advertised because while most of them are still patented medication, they have ceased to be the most recent advertised drug. And one should jump through slightly crispy hoops before taking them. They may work for you, I dont know, but they're positively dangerous. EMSAM may have some positive effects on that front. A class of medications that, unless you live in Europe and can take a RIMA, bars you from taking most OTC medications, without ending up in a hospital or comatose. They're medications of last resort. And like some individuals on this board with very serious depression, they have worked. But you have to play the game with your diet. Very carefully. Its about one step removed from ECT.
> Yes, there are potentially life-threatening effects. What does that matter if you feel like killing yourself when you aren't on the medication?
>
> The commercials are basically saying in so many words "this drug works just like the first time you took [illlict drug of choice]".I think that's a bit of an exxageration but advertising of medications has gotten to a new low in this country, I will admit -- that doesn't mean I have any conspiracy theories about them.
Posted by tizza on March 4, 2006, at 1:34:51
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » tizza, posted by yxibow on March 4, 2006, at 0:54:25
Thanks for the post Jay, I really appreciated it, I'm just pissed off that I was rx'ed zyprexa and seroquel for depression, GAD, etc when it was totally unnescessary. I just don't understand so much about me and I'm so sick and tired of being prescribed numbing medication to just shut me up. Thanks again Paul. I hope you are doing well. I'm a bit freaky at the moment again which is disturbing me but I've go a bit of sh*t going down at the moment and I'm sure it will resolve itself soon.
Posted by cecilia on March 4, 2006, at 2:36:56
In reply to Re:Is advertising Meds allowed in the US? » wildcard11, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:25:09
You'll never see an ad for a traditional MAOI because they're old and off patent. Once the patent expires, so do the ads, unless the drug companies can figure out a way to tweak it a little to make it seem like a new drug. I bet we'll see plenty of ads for the Emsam patch! Cecilia
Posted by cecilia on March 4, 2006, at 3:01:21
In reply to The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyone?, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2006, at 13:12:49
Someday hopefully we'll have genetic research that will tell us what will work for whom. But I'm suspicious that even so a lot of people will still not get properly treated because drug companies aren't going to waste their money on a drug that works on only a tiny fraction of the population with a certain genetic makeup,( even if they can get it approved.) I read a book many years ago about a young woman with schizophrenia who failed trials of all the AP drugs available at the time. She went into a clinical trial on kidney dialysis for schizophenia. Overall, it worked no better than placebo,so the trial was discontinued. But for her it worked dramatically, she went on to become a pdoc, and at least at the time the book was written had had no more symptoms. There are probably lots of drugs potentially out there that would work the same way-dramatic results for a tiny percentage of the population but never approvable because overall they're no better than placebo. There may be hundreds of different types of depression, but researchers see them as all the same. It' ridiculous-nobody thinks all cancers should be treated exactly the same way. Cecilia
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2006, at 9:27:34
In reply to Re: oh » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 22:01:43
Mice know the difference between real drug and saline. They will lever administer crack without sleep or food till they die. I don't think they'd do the same with saline.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2006, at 9:33:33
In reply to SSRIs et alia, Brain Chemistry and a moving target » linkadge, posted by yxibow on March 4, 2006, at 0:38:25
"They work for what they are intended for -- relief from depression and anxiety with the informed consent and predisposed knowledge that they, just like any other antidepressant or anxiolytic, could eventually not work at some point."
Well for some people they do this. Do opiates work for scurvey ? I suppose they might "work" under a loose definition. Although, I'd really like to do better than opiates. Vitamin C would be nice. But I suppose we havn't discovered that.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2006, at 9:37:25
In reply to Re: 150mg » linkadge, posted by tizza on March 4, 2006, at 1:10:49
I'm not saying that I don't believe wildcard, I would just need to be there in the room in the insuing days to monitor behavior for myself untill I was able to believe that dropping the drug cold turkey did nothing at all. Thats just skeptical me.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on March 4, 2006, at 13:06:52
In reply to Re: Yes » ed_uk, posted by zeugma on March 3, 2006, at 18:07:08
Hi Z :)
>When people wothdraw from an SSRI the serotonin system is depleted, and they enter REM prematurely, experiencing those 'zap' sensations from cholinergic hypersensitivity, which results from the sudden aminergic weakness.
Some people take diphenhydramine (Benadryl), an antihistamine and anticholinergic, to reduce the symptoms of SSRI withdrawal. I imagine the anticholinergic effect reduces the withdrawal symptoms and the antihistamine effect reduces any insomnia which may be present.
Warm regards
Ed
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