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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 22:50:36
In reply to Re: Yes » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 21:59:11
Buspirone can help with certain SSRI side effects quite well in some cases and can speed an antidepressant response. And yes, in animal models 5ht1a agonists screen as anxiolytic. >>
there is an issue here with where the threshold would be put for a substance to be anxiolytic/ antidpressant.
sometimes a little bit counts, even in severe illnesses.
-z
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 23:18:15
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 22:50:36
I'm not sure what you mean...
Following your suggestion, one should be able to employ the "benzodiazepine antipsychotics" in paranoid schizophrenia, for the benzodiazepines definitely lessen feelings of fear, worry, suspicion, paranoia, and other lawn orniments residing in front of Mental Misery Manor. In fact, at high enough doses (provided the patient is kept away with other meds), they can stop it altogether. Are they antipsychotics?
Depression can feature anxiety, and depression can be caused by anxiety. However, if you treat such anxiety with an anxiolytic, the anxiety is gone quickly, yet the depression remains. If buspar is used in that circumstance, after 4-6 weeks (at ueber-doses) the depression might improve to the point where there's not as much anxiety (or in this case I think "worry" is better). Does that mean buspar is an anxiolytic? What it means, really, is that buspar isn't ANYTHING. Did it get rid of the depression or anxiety? No. It just "improved" both. And I wonder if that has anything to do with the way SSRIs "improve" things...
It is a weak 5th1a partial agonist with some other properties. It should be labelled as a REM sleep control drug, if anything.
or did I miss your point
Posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 23:34:33
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » tizza, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 21:40:47
> The answer to this is in this history of the diagnosis. ADHD used to be only for children, who never WANTED to take the speed. It was dispensed to them largely for the purposes of eliminating normal behaviors in healthy children (usually male) that parents and teachers found undesirable. Amphetamine, at the right dose, has a calming effect in MOST PEOPLE! It's just that some people have a very hard time functioning unless they are in that state, as their default state doesn't mesh with life tasks well; those are the people we say have ADHD. Only much later did psychiatrists extend this category to adults, and many psychiatrists debate that it does not exist in adults. It is no cooincidence that most psychiatrist will try to treat adults with ADHD with TCAs, wellbutrin, and strattera first--because dispensing any drug you WANT to take is against the doctrine of pharmacological calvinism.
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> In the case you describe, you are admitting that a tranquilizer makes you feel more tranquil. There is nothing illogical about the situation; the confusion only comes from a conflation of terms. Yes, diazepam is a DEPRESSANT, meaning it enhances the function of GABA--an inhibitory neurotransmitter--at GABA(A) receptors. This DEPRESSES--or slows down--certain neural activity in limbic system projections, decreases acetylcholine release (muscle relaxation, relief from "thought-frenzied" states, etc. DEPRESSION is a term that refers to a complex state in which one is persistently hopeless, suicidal, loses interest in things that once were enjoyable, cannot experience pleasure, etc. People that are depressed do not have DEPRESSED nervous systems. That is, it is quite possible for a depressed person to be agitated and sleepless.
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> The SSRI made you crave alcohol because it induced anxiety and inhibited DA release, which is calming. The neurological substrate in the not-really-paradoxical stimulant response involves an increase in the amount of DA at the synapse when the neurons are at rest. This results in increased activation of postsynaptic autoreceptors, which inhibits DA release. Thus, the receptors are more stimulating while resting, yet the amplitude of their reponse to activation is lessened. Thus, you have less impulsive, reactive activity--more focus. Dig it?
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> At high doses, the amount of excess DA present at the synapse overcomes the feedback mechanism's ability to compensate, and you have the effects classically associated with stimulants.
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> Yes I do get *persistently hopeless, suicidal, loses interest in things that once were enjoyable, cannot experience pleasure* when I'm suffering a severe bout of depression and VERY *agitated and sleepless* so when I take SSRI's this get magnified greatly and my friends beg me not to take them because I turn very aggressive and get extermly self destructive. I appreciate your response, thankyou. The Val keeps GAD and social phobia in check and if I feel like I'm sliding back into a black hole I just up my Val dose and it seems to get me through. Still having major trouble with the self loathing though, I'm just starting CBT for that. 6 months effexor free WOO HOO oh and I use mogadon (nitrazepam) for insomnia. It's the best thing I have ever taken for that except seroquel which left me a drooling idiotic mess. Paul
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Posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 23:40:15
In reply to Re: Yes » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 23:18:15
Depression can feature anxiety, and depression can be caused by anxiety. However, if you treat such anxiety with an anxiolytic, the anxiety is gone quickly, yet the depression remains.
I have been dx both ways maybe that's why I have been on the drug merry go round for so many years and still after a sh*t load of drugs, benzo's seem to be the only ones that work for me but I have never tried buspar. Paul
Posted by cecilia on March 3, 2006, at 0:41:34
In reply to Re:New Idea, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2006, at 15:57:26
I think it's better to have a truth board, not just a positive board. People new to meds hear more than enough lies from doctors and advertisements.. At least here they can hear a variety of different experiences and know they're not alone when they experience a side effect their doctor says doesn't exist. Cecilia
Posted by tizza on March 3, 2006, at 1:37:49
In reply to Re:New Idea: phillipa, posted by cecilia on March 3, 2006, at 0:41:34
I am still flummoxed that there is drug advertising allowed, is there really advertisments for antidepressants? I'm not sure about this but it is not permitted here with the exception of Paracetamol (acetaminophen), asprin or ibuprofen and that's about it. Australia has very strict advertising controls. I'd drop dead if I saw an ad for Effexor or Prozac, either in print, a magazine, billboards or on TV. Someone please tell me this is not true. Paul. I'd have to aquaint myself in the ways of becoming a graffitti artist.
Posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 7:56:22
In reply to Re:Is advertising Meds allowed in the US?, posted by tizza on March 3, 2006, at 1:37:49
yes~it's true. i'd guess half of the commercials i see are for A/D's and they are the same. they show someone who is down and then after they have taken the advertised med. and they are happy go lucky and life is perfect. it's a joke if you ask me but *most* docs i know of are all to ready to rx any A/D w/o further monitoring (general practitioners)...if you know what to say, you can get anything here. that's just my little opinion on it.
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 7:59:23
In reply to 150mg (nm) » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 21:40:55
I find it hard to believe that you dropped 150 mg of effexor cold turkey and were on no other antidepressant and experienced 0 withdrawl symptoms. Thats just skeptical me.
If you went onto another antidepressant after you stopped effexor then that doesn't cound cause they can block eachothers withdrawl effects.
Linkadge
Posted by tizza on March 3, 2006, at 8:13:13
In reply to Re: 150mg, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 7:59:23
> I find it hard to believe that you dropped 150 mg of effexor cold turkey and were on no other antidepressant and experienced 0 withdrawl symptoms. Thats just skeptical me.
>
> If you went onto another antidepressant after you stopped effexor then that doesn't cound cause they can block eachothers withdrawl effects.
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> Linkadgei went from 150 to 75mg of effexor for 2 months to level out and then tapered from there, pure hell.
*If you went onto another antidepressant after you stopped effexor then that doesn't cound cause they can block eachothers withdrawl effects.*
That's why I had no withdrawals from citalopram when I switched to Luvox. I'm sure it would have been yet another horror story to add to the list. Why do GP's and pdocs keep you going from one SSRI to another, if it doesn't work after 3 different attempts then strike 3 you're out!!!! Paul
Posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 8:27:06
In reply to Re: 150mg, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 7:59:23
Well i know for a fact that i did and had NO withdrawal effects. not everyone has the same chemical make up so why is that so hard to believe? any A/D i have ever been on i quit cold and been okay (not recommending it w/o dr. approval). i have had 1 relapse after being off effexor xr for 45 days but that was some time ago. i went from 225 to 150 to 0 and am doing good. hell, i wouldn't doubt i'm the exception to the rule as i always have been..lol
Posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 8:36:18
In reply to Re: 150mg » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 8:27:06
>let me add this~i did take 225, then the next day drop to 150, then the next day take 75 and then none in case that 3 day period could be the difference.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:16:48
In reply to Re:New Idea: phillipa, posted by cecilia on March 3, 2006, at 0:41:34
All advertisements are lies, as none of the conditions that the medications purport to treat exist as the entities that the advertisements claim, i.e. medical conditions witn clearly defined biological etiologies. If any of these conditions were actually biological, it would no longer be psychiatric. The problems are suffering are very real; they just aren't medical diseases. The psychiatric slight-of-hand is necessary to make giving drugs for mental illness compatible with the doctrine of pharmacological calvinism.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:20:59
In reply to Re:Is advertising Meds allowed in the US?, posted by tizza on March 3, 2006, at 1:37:49
Sounds like Oz is the place I want to be, then. You mean there is a trace of scruples left in public policy? Somehow, in the United States, it is OK to directly market drugs to patients yet tell them they must get a permission slip from a doctor in order to take them. We are supposed to have a free market, yet the advertisers are playing a rigged game.
"Babylon system is a vampire, sucking the blood of the sufferers..."
--Bob Marley
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:25:09
In reply to Re:Is advertising Meds allowed in the US? » tizza, posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 7:56:22
The only AD they won't advertise right off the bat are MAOIs. Those you have to jump through flaming hoops while juggling baby seals to get permission to take. It is easier to get an Rx for d-amphetamine.
Yes, there are potentially life-threatening effects. What does that matter if you feel like killing yourself when you aren't on the medication?The commercials are basically saying in so many words "this drug works just like the first time you took [illlict drug of choice]".
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:31:44
In reply to Re: 150mg » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 8:27:06
I just find that hard to believe. How long before you went onto another antidepressant ? Don't mean to be a dweeb, but I'd just have to see it to believe it.
Effexor is so addicting for some people that they have to start counting the pelets in the 37.5mg capsules.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:33:02
In reply to oh » wildcard11, posted by wildcard11 on March 3, 2006, at 8:36:18
Thats still very suprising. Not sying its not possable, but just very suprising.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:49:05
In reply to Re: oh » wildcard11, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:33:02
Many people do not get withdrawal symptoms. I feel a lot of it has to do with the perceived psychological need for the medication.
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:23:12
In reply to Re: oh » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 9:49:05
Yes, but a lot of people do have withdrawl symptoms. I would like to say that it was all in my mind, but brain the brain zaps were hard to chalk up to mindset.
I bet you that if, during the withdrawl, you gave me a toss up between a real effexor, and a placebo, I'd be able to tell which one you gave me based on which one one actually relieved withdrawl symtpoms.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 13:54:32
In reply to Re: oh » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:23:12
Oh, I agree with you. I have suffered through that.
The fact remains that experiments show that some morphine addicts given IV injections of saline when begging for morphine promptly nodded out and went to sleep. They had clinically significant opioid withdrawal symptoms before the saline injections.
This was done in the 1920s. You will never see research like this ever again because it is a universal fact among medical ignoramuses that drug addiction/dependence is solely a property of the drug.
Oh, by the way, SSRIs do not induce physical dependence! Hahahhha! Don't you love this "science"?!?
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 14:02:26
In reply to Re: 150mg » wildcard11, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:31:44
d-amphetamine attenuates SSRI/SNRI withdrawal symptoms. Don't ask me why, but 10-30mg will completely ameliorate the brain zaps, etc. Insofar as being therapeutic beyond that, that's a toss up.
Posted by zeugma on March 3, 2006, at 15:23:18
In reply to Re: Yes » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 23:18:15
It is a weak 5th1a partial agonist with some other properties. It should be labelled as a REM sleep control drug, if anything.
or did I miss your point >>
no, that is my point.
i take it simply to control my REM sleep until the more long acting REM suppressant (nortriptyline) kicks in. if it did not have this property, I would not take it.
-z
Posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:03:56
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » yxibow, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 1, 2006, at 10:32:38
Chair,
I would definitely rather be on morphine than Zyprexa. The side effects of morphine are less disturbing. I would treat the constipation with a combination of laxatives. Dopamine antagonists do not agree with me.
Ed
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 16:12:11
In reply to Re: oh » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 3, 2006, at 13:54:32
Wish I could believe your theory.
Sounds to me like you are going through stimulant withdrawl ? :)Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 16:13:48
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:03:56
Dopamine antagonists do not agree with dopamine.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on March 3, 2006, at 16:34:24
In reply to Re: Yes » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 21:59:11
Z,
You've suffered 'brain zaps'?
And on the subject of SSRIs......
For me, SSRIs reduce the number of thoughts coming into my head. They create an almost serene detachment from the reality of my life. They numb the pain of negative emotions. They allow me to ignore thoughts that I don't want to have (OCD etc). They reduce empathy and motivation. Time passes by unnoticed. Things never seem to get done. Everything gets left until the last minute. I dropped out of university.........but at least I'm calm :) Not quite happy, but I do at least feel pleasant. I take 80mg citalopram (Celexa). I do find it 'anxiolytic' - but at a cost.
Kind regards
Ed
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