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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on November 2, 2005, at 21:27:55
http://www.wireheading.com/ect/glutglut.html
seems to make a lot of sense. could they reverse, heal, or prevent the drugs with anti-glutamate drugs? i guess they could just prevent the whole seizure though... (maybe receptor antagonists wouldn't? again really not knowing what i'm talking about.) this theory makes so much sense after reading how Dr. Jay A. Goldstein talks about glutamate, NMDA and glycine receptors have direct effects on memory and cognitive salience.
sorry wierd subject... i still really think i would take ECT if it were offered to me right now...
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2005, at 21:29:26
In reply to ECT and glutamate overload, cause of damage?, posted by iforgotmypassword on November 2, 2005, at 21:27:55
Three words for you. Don't have ECT.
You'll relapse in 6 months, and your glia will never forgive you.
Linkadge
Posted by iforgotmypassword on November 4, 2005, at 0:36:29
In reply to Re: ECT and glutamate overload, cause of damage?, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2005, at 21:29:26
there seems to be so much conflicting information on this though. i don't think my brain has forgiven me for the ssris or pot either, and no one really agrees on those. i still twitch, grimace, pace, and grind my teeth. i am still disconnected from all meaningful feelings. ugh... it doesn't matter, one doctor seemed to humour me for a bit, but realistically none have probably ever actually considered it for me.
Posted by med_empowered on November 4, 2005, at 1:18:32
In reply to Re: ECT and glutamate overload, cause of damage?, posted by iforgotmypassword on November 4, 2005, at 0:36:29
ECT was developed in the 30s, based upon the use of electricity on pigs in slaughterhouses. It was thought of as "annihilation therapy"--the term alone should give you an idea about what kind of "therapeutic effect" they were aiming for. It hit the big time in the age of "brain damaging therapy"--basically, from the 20s-50s, there seemed to be an idea that the way to cure the brain was to (partially) destroy it or reduce some of its functions. This gave us..metrazol therapy (injecting patients with metrazol until they had frightening, vertebrae-shattering seizures), "inhalation therapy"--forcing patients into an oxygen-deprived state until they passed out and/or died (caused LOTS of brain damage), "insulin therapy"--inducing an insulin coma, then reviving the patient; had a 10% death rate, and caused mad brain damage...and finally, LOBTOMY, which was pretty much the most straightforward form of intentionally-inflicted brain damage ("therapy") ever invented.
ECT is making something of a "comeback," but that's largely for financial reasons. In the age of HMOs, docs can make much more doing ECT sessions (usually with medication as part of the package) than they can just doing medication. It really doesn't work that well--I have relatives who had it (at very good psychiatric hospitals) and they're not as depressed, but they are much dumber, generally unhappy, and still heavily medicated. Ideally, treatment for depression should involve working WITH your brain, not against it via jolts of electricity. Its worth noting that the Italian doc who first "developed" ECT (a better term would be "stole" or "adapted to human use" since it was based on slaughterhouse techniques) stopped using it, and spoke out against it. Its really not that effective--relapses are pretty commmon--and it tends to cause cognitive impairment. If you're wondering why cognitive impairment doesn't always show up on ECT studies, ask yourself: who's measuring? The answer: usually, the same doctor who does ECT will do post-ECT testing for cognitive issues. Not surprisingly, the doctor who makes his/her living doing ECT **rarely** finds any significant cognitive impairment. Also, its important to realize that the ECT industry is worth about $5 Billion, so there are big bucks at stake here.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on November 4, 2005, at 2:20:03
In reply to **PLEASE** don't have ECT, posted by med_empowered on November 4, 2005, at 1:18:32
it really wouldn't matter what it did to me but *please* don't worry, no doctor would ever consider it. it wouldn't matter how much i begged and pleaded. i am a personality disorder case, i'm having trouble even finding a doctor that is willing to see me.
Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2005, at 11:04:03
In reply to Re: **PLEASE** don't have ECT, posted by iforgotmypassword on November 4, 2005, at 2:20:03
It totally *would* matter what it did to you.
There are 3 ways you can go in life. Up, down or nowhere.
If you could reverse one bad treatment decision in your past, I'm sure you'd do it.
Similarly, if you knew a treatment would make you worse, you would avoid it.
People say, "what have I got to loose?" and the answer is: "more brain cells".
Medications may be bad, but ECT is a crime.
Sure, I've been f*d over by medications.
But, there are some things that make a difference. Small things, small differences, but its progress nonetheless.
Linkadge
Posted by med_empowered on November 4, 2005, at 12:05:17
In reply to Re: **PLEASE** don't have ECT, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2005, at 11:04:03
hi! I don't mean to pry but...what is your "personality disorder" diagnosis? Just so you know...the entire "personality disorder" concept is one of the more controversial, MUCH less scientific areas of psychiatry (and, given how soft and decidedly un-objective/scientific/helpful so much stuff is that comes out of modern psychiatry, that's saying *A LOT*). What problems are you dealing with? Have you considered seeing a therapist, hopefully one who operates less from a DSM-IV standpoint and more of a "help the WHOLE person" standpoint? In my experience, if they **REALLY** think you need medication (and they usually don't push meds as hard as shrinks), they'll just call your GP and make it happen. I had one shrink try to DX me with "Narcissistic Personality Disorder"...I think the idea was that since I was in a mental hospital but refused some meds, told the patient advocate my shrink was mean-spiritied and un-professional, and chose to view myself as a worth while human being instead of a walking, talking "disease," I must have come off as "narcissistic" (interestingly, the fellow patients and I got along GREAT; I just butted heads with the higher-ups). I rejected the label, and told my shrink so; I actually have pretty low self-esteem (this whole "I actually might like myself" thing is a pretty recent development), and I do way too much volunteer work to be a "narcissist". ANYWAY, the point is..."personality disorders" are often more MORAL JUDGEMENTS (or indictments, really) than they are SCIENTIFICALLY BASED DIAGNOSES. So maybe it would help if you tried to form your OWN opinion of yourself, and also improve upon your self-esteem. There's really no point in allowing yourself to believe a shrink when he/she tells you that you have a "personality disorder"; keep in mind that you get ONE life, and its probably better to live it accepting yourself instead of hating yourself b/c of some ridiculous, self-serving DX slapped on you by a "professional" who might talk to you 30mins monthly, if you're lucky (also, keep in mind that psychiatrists are trained to diagnoses, and break people down looking for flaws; I have yet to hear a psychiatrist diagnose anyone as "kind" or "a good person". They operate from a soul-killing, dehumanizing, labelling-heavy perspective). Good luck!
Posted by sal0805 on November 5, 2005, at 5:58:48
In reply to Re: **PLEASE** don't have ECT, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2005, at 11:04:03
<<Medications may be bad, but ECT is a crime.>>
I endured 6 ECT sessions in February this year (over a 2 week period, so pretty intense). I would never attempt to change another person's mind if they so wished to have ECT but do not mind admitting that given the option I would never willingly have ECT. (I was not all that willing in February!) There is absolutely no evidence that ECT helped me, reduced my depression or did anything positive for me for that matter. It would be fruitless to regret it now, for it is done, but I am relieved that I need not endure ECT again.
<<Sure, I've been f*d over by medications>>
I kind of have to agree with this statement. Again - I support others who benefit from medications. It is just that medication does not support me!!
Sabrina
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2005, at 13:44:41
In reply to Re: **PLEASE** don't have ECT » linkadge, posted by sal0805 on November 5, 2005, at 5:58:48
I hope you can find something to help. I am not against people getting better, but I am against people getting worse. I just don't think ECT is safe.
Take Care
Linkadge
Posted by sal0805 on November 5, 2005, at 15:16:23
In reply to Re: **PLEASE** don't have ECT, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2005, at 13:44:41
I agree Linkadge. I was just too afraid to say too 'loudly' that I don't think it is safe either.
I'm the only one helping me at the moment. Been the hardest thing I have ever done but for now it is working.
And I hang on to that ............ for dear life.
Hugs
Sabrina
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2005, at 8:51:52
In reply to Re: **PLEASE** don't have ECT, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2005, at 11:04:03
> ECT is a crime.
Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
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