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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 8:57:11
In reply to Re: please be civil » prozacpuppet, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2005, at 8:11:01
Ok, I was a little abrupt..I apologise, but I wasn't trying to put anyone down at all I was trying to offer some advice..I personally think that medicating someone that can be helped by other means should be looked at first before doctors hand out medication, thats all. There are people that benifit from medication but in the end it really comes down to the way you think about things that sort all the problems out. Take care, dream big.
Posted by lushkins on June 6, 2005, at 8:58:19
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
I aggree with puppet to a certain extent, despite being on meds myself. Although they help releif some of the symtoms, they change you so much. They may make life better to a certain extent. For some they are the only option and it may litterally mean the difference between life and death no matter how positive/ or how much talk therapy there they need meds. This is not saying that positive thinking doesn't help them as it would but they also need the support that medication would give them, but for others it is to a degree the easy way out. I myself have tried it without the meds, and to a certain degree got somewhere I would have times where I felt quite good, but I would always have downs that I couldn't shake off and in the end it got the better of me. One day when I am feeling good enough I will try again to come off them.
But at the end of the day mental illness is one heck off a spectrum ranging from the slightly ill to the seriosly ill, there is no denying that. My uncle is schiztophenic and takes 7 types of meds but is still in a terrible state and spends alot of the time in hospital, his illness was caused by starvation of oxygen at birth so like it or lump it puppet there are people that cannot live without meds.
Posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 9:46:04
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 7:31:19
> > Why is medicine wrong?
> It's wrong because people need...
People don't need to anything except to live and die.
> ...people need to live with their NEGATIVE and POSITIVE feelings, emotions, and thoughts
This is true of any biologically healthy or unhealthy person. Of course, living with unhealthy thoughts and feelings does not mean that one must passively accept them as being unchangeable. Change requires work. Growth requires work.
Unfortunately, a sizeable percentage of people here have a neurological disorder that remains intractable unless there is a biological intervention to correct or compensate for the abnormal physiology. This includes drug therapy. The biological nature of major depressive disorder and bipolar disorder is now evident; the overwhelming evidence being the result of much hard work in the field of neuroscience. If you are interested, there is plenty of medical literature available to demonstrate this. For those people who would argue otherwise, very little is ever offered as proof except opinion and supposition. Use Google. You'll see.
> and to medicate a person because of their beliefs and thoughts is not solving anything
It solves a great deal when disease is present.
If one's belief is that they have conversations with their dog in English, and that the dog has ordered them to shoot young lovers with a 44 caliber pistol, some psychiatric intervention is indicated. Schizophrenia is a biological disorder of the brain. Numerous studies of the morphology and function of the brain demonstrate this. One of its symptoms is audatory hallucinations. Antipsychotics do a good job at managing them. It is the job of medicine to be able to recognize and diagnose properly those illnesses that affect the processing of information and the belief system that results. It does require judgment.
When disease is not present, medicating a person because of their beliefs could be either an honest medical mistake or a malignant fascism. Right?
> just desensitising masses of people..
That's not how these drugs work. When one is severely depressed and vegetative, they actually help them experience the world with greater sensory acuity.
> people should learn to love, not fear,
What does this have to do with treating a biological disease with a biological treatment?
> and realise your part of a whole that everything is part of, your beliefs make your reality.
You've got that wrong. Your reality makes your beliefs.
- Scott
Posted by Tom Twilight on June 6, 2005, at 10:33:35
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » prozacpuppet, posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 9:46:04
Once I used to sucribe to puppets point of view, I thought all medications were bad.
Now I know betterI have lots of points I could make, but I've got to go back to work, so I'll be brief.
Firstly virtually nothing in life is ever completely good or bad, life is very complex and most issues are not as straight forward as they seem at first.
This can be frustrating, but thats life!Meds cause some people a lot of problems, but to others they are a God send, we're all different.
Secondly to respond to Puppets point about using the mind to solve problems.
It is of course good if one can control the mind, but its not always possible.
Sometimes people have compulsive thoughts that they cannot control, or they have dillusions.In these cases the idea that their responsible for their thinking is not going to help them, infact they may even think that there bad people because of there thoughts.
Posted by Nickengland on June 6, 2005, at 11:53:19
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
>USE YOUR MIND TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS!
Is the same as saying if something was wrong with you're heart "use your heart to solve your own problems"
It gets complicated because you think that perhaps maybe you think, you can "think" you're way out of a problem you may be suffering...in the same way you use your mind to think a way out of other problems eg a crossword puzzle.
Try telling that to someone who is manic when part of there illness is to think that nothing is wrong!
The fact is the brain is an organ and if it is not working as it should then the reaction is you feel different - which is turn you have symtoms - which in turn is your behaviour reacts differently to.
You need to "fix" the cause of these problems and therefore you need to treat you're brain.
What medication offers, if given correctly will ease the disruption.
It will not "cure" but if given correctly it will "relieve" you're problems in the long-run.
If the brain is not working properly, you are not working properly. the only way to get your brain working properly is through medication, its not perfect and you can't expect it to be, but for now its more or less the best thing you can use...and if you can get by without it, then that is the best outcome you can have..but for many others medication (at least for now) is the best outcome those people can expect to have...
Posted by PM80 on June 6, 2005, at 15:31:49
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by Nickengland on June 6, 2005, at 11:53:19
I love that I don't have racing thoughts. I used to get them almost daily. Thanks to meds I don't. They were bordering on scary, and I do not generally let myself get scared at anything that goes on up there. I also like that when I am feeling depressed I can use my mind to fight it. Thanks to meds, anyway. Meds aren't right for everyone, but they are right for others.
I can use my mind to help me solve my problems because of my meds.
Posted by linkadge on June 6, 2005, at 16:14:55
In reply to sometimes NOT, posted by PM80 on June 6, 2005, at 15:31:49
I don't think the *idea* of medication is wrong. Of course if it worked, I'd stand here to defend it more.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 16:34:05
In reply to Re: sometimes NOT, posted by linkadge on June 6, 2005, at 16:14:55
> I don't think the *idea* of medication is wrong. Of course if it worked, I'd stand here to defend it more.
>
>
> Linkadge
Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others.Medicine is the worst treatment for biological mental illness - except for all the others.
We gotta use what we have and plead to our researchers to give us more.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on June 6, 2005, at 17:24:48
In reply to Re: sometimes NOT, posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 16:34:05
You're darn right we do. It is pathetic.
We need good stuff.
potent 5-ht1a agonist, 5-ht2a antagonist
D3 agonistTriple uptake inhibitor + 5-ht2 blocade
RU-486 + BDNF injections.
combination MAO-B inhibitor gaba agonist, and 5-ht1a agonist. Like KAVA-KAVA (that herb was wonderful)
Serotonin autoreceptor antagonist + postsynaptic agonist.
The list of my ideas goes on and on. But we're probably in for another handfull of SSRI's first.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 6, 2005, at 17:27:41
In reply to Re: sometimes NOT, posted by linkadge on June 6, 2005, at 17:24:48
5-ht1a agonist, 5-ht2a antagonist, gaba agonist,
and anandamide reuptake inhibition, heck throw in a little opiate action too.Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on June 6, 2005, at 17:44:19
In reply to ultimate anxiolitic, posted by linkadge on June 6, 2005, at 17:27:41
Reminds me of an elderly lady in a wheelchair who came into the hospital so depressed she was a vegtable. Can't remember what they gave her but a couple of weeks later I was on the floor they had transferred her to when she was no longer acute. She had make-up on, was smiling, talking, it seemed like a miracle. And I have witnessed pts locked-up for a week or more in seclusion because they were so manic. Finally their meds would kick in and they were like different people. The same with schizophrenics. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by sleepygirl on June 7, 2005, at 1:22:23
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
I could react strongly against that statement having been witness to the struggle of myself and so many others against the destructive power of mental illness......
OK maybe I will.I've seen many young people, lives filled with promise and possibilities, in pain and confusion as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder takes hold and severly limits many of those possibilities. Many of them didn't understand what was happening to them, were ashamed of themselves, thought they could get better if they only tried harder(maybe use their minds to solve their problems), and were scared, very scared. Unfortunately they were at the beginning of a very long illness. The impact and severity of their illnesses would not be appreciated for some time to come.
I've seen young people extremely debilitated by obsessive compulsive disorder. Some couldn't even get out of bed, leave the house, take a shower, dress, eat, or do much of anything without elaborate rituals they themselves were ashamed of although they were helpless to stop themselves.
I have seen many people struggle through the depths of despair, heights of anxiety, and the terror of panic. Despite all the rationalization in the world they were powerless to find comfort for themselves.
Medication will not "solve" these problems, but it can help. Can anyone argue that it would be "wrong" to use all that we have to help people have the best quality of life possible?
Posted by linkadge on June 7, 2005, at 6:20:17
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by sleepygirl on June 7, 2005, at 1:22:23
I agree with sleepygirl. Medication is one tool in the box, there are other tools that can be used, but for goodness sakes, if a job calls for a certain tool, then use it.
Linkadge
Posted by blueberry on June 7, 2005, at 6:27:23
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
So if you are diagnosed with heart disease, do not take medicine for it. Will it away. Kidney problems, will it away. Just use your mind. Arthritis problems, just will it away. Use your mind. Skin problems, just use your mind.
It amazes me how many people think the brain is an organ that is somehow off limits to having anything biologically wrong with it. Sure, other organs can have problems, but not the brain. Right.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 7, 2005, at 7:14:04
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » prozacpuppet, posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 6:36:42
> > USE YOUR MIND TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS!
>
> I do.
>
Hey, that's what I was going to say!!! (Yikes, this doesn't mean we are married, does it?);)
gg
>
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on June 7, 2005, at 10:39:45
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
Posted by Declan on June 7, 2005, at 15:23:25
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » prozacpuppet, posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 6:40:02
Every so often someone comes along and says this. I thought the point might be that the benefit of these drugs is limited by their toxicity. For example if Scott can only get 15% above baseline, then is most of the therapeutic effect is swallowed by the toxicity? Was Chron was saying something like that? I don't think it's silly or anything. Will the drugs one day be better? I'm not terribly optimistic.
Declan
Posted by FredPotter on June 7, 2005, at 16:28:06
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 7:31:19
> to medicate a person because of their beliefs >and thoughts
In the case of depression and anxiety the medication is for feelings not beliefs and thoughts. In my case fear without the object of fear. CBT says thoughts come first and sometimes they do. But neuroscience has demonstrated recently that feelings from the alarm centre, the amygdala, can arrive in conciousness before, or without, an accompanying thought. I always felt this to be true but couldn't prove it.
So how am I to learn from fear that has no object? Present me with a tiger (if you must) and I will fight or flee (on balance I'd flee). But with nameless fear where do I flee, what from, or what do I fight?
Fred
Posted by Declan on June 7, 2005, at 17:30:33
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » prozacpuppet, posted by FredPotter on June 7, 2005, at 16:28:06
Hi Fred
I've always felt that feelings cause thoughts rather than vice versa. (Too much psychodynamic therapy?) But when is it a feeling, when does it become a thought? CBT seems a bit top down to me.
Declan
Posted by ace on June 8, 2005, at 1:06:31
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
> USE YOUR MIND TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS!
That's preety easy to say buddy, but when a lot of us are in a deep depression you can give us all the "mind exercises" there exists, and it won't do a darn thing.....that's my experience anyway....
Ace
Posted by Mr.Scott on June 8, 2005, at 1:50:25
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
Good Sir or Maddam...
I have used my mind in conjunction with my doc's mind to come up with a pretty good cocktail after years of misery (you should pray you never know), that for the first time in over 10 years allows me to benefit from psychotherapy, spirituality, relationships, learning, experience, sharing, participating in life, etc.
We really had to use our minds a great deal actually to finally get it right.
Cheers,
Scott
Posted by SLS on June 8, 2005, at 5:56:38
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » prozacpuppet, posted by Mr.Scott on June 8, 2005, at 1:50:25
> Good Sir or Maddam...
>
> I have used my mind in conjunction with my doc's mind to come up with a pretty good cocktail after years of misery (you should pray you never know), that for the first time in over 10 years allows me to benefit from psychotherapy, spirituality, relationships, learning, experience, sharing, participating in life, etc.
YES! YES! YES!Exactly. That's how it works.
I can't wait to participate again.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 8, 2005, at 6:16:25
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » prozacpuppet, posted by SLS on June 6, 2005, at 9:46:04
> You've got that wrong.
Sorry, but please respect the views of others, be sensitive to their feelings, and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Mr.Scott on June 9, 2005, at 1:07:42
In reply to Re: MEDICINE IS WRONG! » Mr.Scott, posted by SLS on June 8, 2005, at 5:56:38
You will!
Posted by Mr.Scott on June 9, 2005, at 2:07:42
In reply to MEDICINE IS WRONG!, posted by prozacpuppet on June 6, 2005, at 5:54:41
-------------------------------------------
Here's my before and after. I deal with a mood disorder of which I believe is a serious disease. Sometimes even fatal. And also that like other diseases it can benefit from appropriate medical intervention. This is merely my experience and my opinion.
-------------------------------------------
Today:
Eating sundaes at a historic soda fountain (where the Beatles once dined) with friends who I'm actually comfortable being myself with after working a full day and actually caring about the job to boot. Thinking about the homework assignment from my therapist due this week dealing with 'what I really want in a life partner.' Just talking to other people and not getting so anxious and thinking I'm so different. Looking forward to reading the same book as my girlfriend so we can discuss it...Quite a change from...
Before:
Wanting to sleep all the time. Being uncommunicative with people to the point of losing relationships. Being too tired to read books, or hold conversations of interest. Feeling too anxious to participate in relationships unless I was essentially emotionally abusive so as to qwell my fears by creating them in others. Being irritable and even mean because I felt so poorly about myself and so inadequate. Obsessed with everything thats bad and feeling it to the point of a numb immobility. Certain the world is just a place where people take advantage of you. And of course having suicidal/morbid thoughts with or without the intent of following through on them. When I was depressed my grandmother who raised me passed away. I never shed a tear and actually found the whole affair annoying to me. All while doing weekly therapy with multiple therapists.Today:
I'm anxious to hear back from grad schools and about the opportunities out there. Which road to take? Should I go to school or take the new job offer? No longer ruminating to the point of sickness because I'm convinced that I'm unlovable and worthless due to a serious mental illness or that I'll never amount to anything because it will hold me back from whatever my potential might be. Knowing true love and friendship today and seeing its benefits. I watch myself make mistakes now all the time and have to say I'm sorry at least twice a week. When depresssed I never participated enough to mess up! And if I did you could forget about ever hearing an admission of such. I am more vulnerable than ever now in relationships and feel much more comfortable with it. Today if I saw a 'cat' in pain (let alone my grandmother dying of cancer), I'd feel it. I'd want to help it. I'd actually try to.It's a disease allright...True the meds/treatments aren't perfect, sometimes even downright harmful...but the disease is sometimes fatal. Should we have the willingness to do whatever it takes to be right of mind, or lose time and risk deat?. It's not the drugs/treatments that make life worth living...It's life that makes life worth living but only if you are able see the potential rewards.
I never had Faith...Today I find it helpful. My work in therapy is stronger and more rewarding whereas before it was virtually wasted money. Before I could be in a room full of people and yet feel all alone with my self-absorbed, negative and often morbid thoughts.
In a vaccum I bet meds wouldn't treat depression very well. In life 'where stuff happens' sometimes meds or even other somatic treatments can help with depression. And when your family history includes multiple suicides, dysthymia, anxiety disorders, etc. and you never even knew these people and then you start to feel sick yourself...maybe its worth considering this is an illness with a touch of biology involved. That doesn't mean you have to rule out Religion or God or Yoga or Diet or Psychotherapy or More Vacation Time or Exercise or Whatever as things to get some help from. Chances are you'll find some in those things (You definately might when your not depressed anymore!), but if those in and of themselves don't give reprieve from insanity than you only harm yourself by not seeking out the consult of an Expert Physician who Specializes in the treatment of your particular concern and seeing if that might not help.
There are no guarantees in life, but as long as you're here wouldn't it be nice or rather normal to experience the uncertainty of it all and be able tolerate it without too much upheavel? To be able to feel the pain of existence as well as the pleasure... instead of having to hide away often too lonely, too scared, and too tired to know anything other than the sickening repetition of your own negative and perceptually inacurate thoughts?
For me its no longer a question...
Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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