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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 7:31:23
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain » sdb, posted by Maxime on May 20, 2005, at 6:35:34
Hi eveybody!
I can not understand some persons have worst withdrawal symptomes and in contrast some have almost no withdrawal symptomes (I personally know examples). Perhaps the reason is which illness you want to cure. Sombody with acute anxiety and known alcohol withdrawal would have big difficulties to stop benzodiazepine usage, in contrast sombody taking benzodiazepines for mood stabilization would not have difficulties in withdrawal.
But overall why stopping a benzodiazepine in special cases? My grandmother takes bz's since 30 years originally prescribed for sleep problems (90 years old, best memory, mostly good mood). Why stopping quality of life?
Dr. Ashton may have big experience in bz withdrawal and she may be famous and friendly but this does not instantly mean that she helps people (Medical doctors very often do the opposite). Her website give almost <no> new, valuable information in benzodiazepine receptors (in our medical faculty is extensively research in that field, most is not fully understood)
I can give you an example:
A married friend with no children took up a prostitute in heroine withdrawal with her daughter to live in their wonderful house in the mountains. He introduced her into the bible. But some weeks later, my friend found her in the next hotel in the village prostituting to get money for heroine. The state (politicians) did not allow her to get it what she needed. Her brain was adjusted to the stuff and perhaps she was genetically conditioned (new reseach says some people will have much more problems to get off e.g. narcotics (differences in receptors of Area tegmentalis ventralis, changing plasticity). The prostitute left the village and let her child alone. My friend accepted the prostitutes child as his and her wife offical daughter (some years the daughter seems to be normal and she know want to do something with animals).
I dont know but perhaps the prostitute could have lived normal if state allowed her controlled heroin, methadone intake (now its introduced). And she would not have left her child alone.
Regards
sdb
Posted by yxibow on May 20, 2005, at 15:47:42
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 4:32:02
> Many psychiatrists say:
>
> benzodiazepines will destroy your brain (Apart from not fully understood pharmacology). How would you as experienced longterm users of benzodiazepines rate this statement?The benzo.org.uk crowd leans on the border of quackery as far as I'm concerned. There are people on Librium, the first benzodiazepine, who have been on it since its existence, which would be 45 years. They are immensely more safe for outpatient use than their 19th and early 20th century predecessors, barbiturates. Withdrawing a patient from one when they have been on them for years and have had no problem is in my opinion, bad medicine.
Now I'm not saying they are without problems.. in some they can and do indeed cause memory loss, confusion, increased difficulty operating machinery, etc. But these are conditions that exist during therapy -- I don't think one will find competent psychiatrists who will tell you that they eat your brain or any other such fantasies.
In fact, they are probably the safest psychiatric medicines on the market with a proven 45 * (infinite) patient-year record and the side effects are few compared to other medications.
Again, judicious use is always prudent; overdosing the prescriptions on them can cause respiratory depression but this has a wide field of range compared to barbiturates.
Hope that helps.
my 2c.
Posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2005, at 18:25:28
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain, posted by yxibow on May 20, 2005, at 15:47:42
I agree. I have been on one or another benzo since my first panic attack at age 23. I've gone down on doses, changed benzos, and am still on one. In all the years I am only taking l5mg of valium a day. Of course maybe this is why I am agoraphobic, and now on disability. But, I think most of my problems started with the low thyroid, and resulting SSRI's that were Rx'd. And not working was a bad idea of the old pdoc. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk on May 20, 2005, at 18:33:23
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2005, at 18:25:28
Hi P!
>In all the years I am only taking l5mg of valium a day.
Do you want to taper the diazepam or to continue at 15mg? IF you want to taper, you could get a prescription for the 2mg tablets. You could try taking 14mg, 7 tablets per day.
Ed xxxx
PS. I'm not trying to encourage you to taper. I just wondered whether you wanted to.
Posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 18:57:17
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2005, at 18:25:28
Hi Phillipa,
So you would say SSRIS caused you more problems instead of helping you.
And Valium seems to give you relief, which gives life more good qualitiy (in spite of the common sideeffects).
Is that right?
With warm regards
sdb
Look to my bad SSRI experiences:
Posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2005, at 19:14:20
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain - Phillipa, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 18:57:17
I think so. Right now I'm not so sure about any of the meds helping me. There was a time when benzos made a noticeable difference in how I felt for the better. Now I really don't feel a thing. People tell me I seem fine when out in public. But I don't feel fine. And yes, I believe SSRI's caused me more problems than good. Luvox seemed to help me the first time I took it but that was with 5mg of ativan. So, who really knows? That was when I took what the pdoc said as gospel. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by mellybelly on May 20, 2005, at 19:34:27
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain - Phillipa » sdb, posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2005, at 19:14:20
I have been on benzos and SSRI's. I really do not like SSRI's and the way they make you feel. The side effects were awful and they take a while to actually take effect. Withdrawing is even worse. My whole family likes benzo's better than SSRI's. (very strange family) The SSRI's made my cousin suicidal, my grandmother very anxious and panicky.
I don't think that they mess with your brian and I really enjoy the way I feel on Xanax even though I only take it when I need it. But I know my grandmother and aunt take them a lot for a long time. They really swear by them and they brian chemistry is fine.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 20, 2005, at 23:51:41
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain, posted by yxibow on May 20, 2005, at 15:47:42
> Many psychiatrists say:
> benzodiazepines will destroy your brain
>
> sdb> The benzo.org.uk crowd leans on the border of quackery as far as I'm concerned.
>
> yxibowPlease don't exaggerate or overgeneralize or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Members of the "benzo.org.uk crowd" may be here, too...
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by chemist on May 21, 2005, at 10:44:07
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 4:32:02
> Many psychiatrists say:
>
> benzodiazepines will destroy your brain (Apart from not fully understood pharmacology). How would you as experienced longterm users of benzodiazepines rate this statement? (I have not big experiences but my grandmother (90 years) takes since 30 years a benzodiazepine, (oxazepam) she has the best memory you can imagine and does not seem to be tolerant)
>
> Is there somebody knowledgable who could rate this state of some psychiatrists pharmacologically?hello there, chemist here...i very much disagree with the assertion that ``benzodiazepines destroy the brain,'' no matter the source...the subtle difference in binding affinity and selective targeting of an additional interfacial LBD in GABA$_{A}$ for, say, the triazolobenzodiazepine alprazolam c.f. a ``traditional'' 1,4-benzodiazepine such as diazepam is very well quantified...there is little to no doubt that the active parent/daughter must bind to the LGIC at the interface of a gamma$_{2}$ and an alpha$_{x}$ (x = 1, 2, 3, or 5)...and the GABA/L-glutamate balance (for one) is a target for epilepsy...aside from anterograde (?) amnesia, i personally do not see a problem with continued use...must run, refs (scant for now, and a bit out of date, but a very nice handful, and yes, the JBC v. 277 was a special ed.):
Storici et al. 1999. Biochemistry 38, 8628-8634;
Stangler et al. 2002. JBC 277, 13363-13366;
Baumann et al. 2002. JBC 277, 46020-46025;
Knight et al. 2002. JBC 277, 5556-5561;
Trudell, J. R. 2002. Biochim. Biophys. Acta 1565, 91-96;
and beware(sponsored by ``unrestricted educational grant from Cephalon, Inc.'' but a good read/review)
Lydiard, R. B. 2003. J. Clin. Psychiatry 64 (Suppl 3), 21-27.
all the best, chemist
Posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 11:35:03
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain » sdb, posted by chemist on May 21, 2005, at 10:44:07
Hi chemist,
Thanks for your information I will check it, when spare time is available. In medical school benzodiazepines education touch only the surface. You learn a lot of pharmakinetics, indications, and blabla but it is a poor fact that good quality knowledge about these receptors is rare (we are at the beginning to understand mechanisms of receptors, their substructures and role to the ligands. I will follow the interesting research as much as possible. We have extensive research in GABA-Receptors here at the institute). All I know in "practice" is that anterograde amnesia is mostly reversible (this is what most md's say in practice). But as always there are individuals right or left of the gauss curve and loss of memory could have other reasons e.g. age, problems with acetylcholine
Regards
sdb
Posted by yxibow on May 21, 2005, at 12:59:04
In reply to Re: please be civil » sdb » yxibow, posted by Dr. Bob on May 20, 2005, at 23:51:41
> > The benzo.org.uk crowd leans on the border of quackery as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > yxibow
>
> Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Members of the "benzo.org.uk crowd" may be here, too...Its splitting hairs but I guess I should have phrased it a little differently; I was referring to some information and doctors from the benzo.org.uk site, not people on this (dr bob) board who may place belief in that site. I think it was fairly clear, but I retract the prior.
Posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 13:00:05
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain- chemist, posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 11:35:03
As I said my grandmother has absolutely no retro- or anterograde memory problems and she is very good in calculating and playing cards. In contrast her new (six years together) younger med free friend seems to develop some dementia.
I dont know the dosage she takes since 30 years (she dont like to talk about it) but it seems to be oxazepam retard formulation originally prescribed for sleep problems. But I am not sure about that. Perhaps she takes it to cure another problem. She also seems to have bipolar tendencies, perhaps diminished by the oxazepam.
My father has bp also but with aggressive tendencies in bad phases and neurotical behaviour (all things must be done perfect, all windows and doors closed or open). On the other hand he can be minor manic or normal. Only after years I was aware what was in the father's family (mother lovely, understanding and "normal"). My father refuses to take any medication and going to a pdoc, perhaps of the following awareness that he really has some deficits. As a child I was sometimes guilty anyway for nothing, when he had bad phases. He has hit me sometimes pretty hard or smashing my self-earned bicycle six meters away because it was not at the right place in the car garage. I dont seem to have these aggressive tendencies, but I am somehow afraid I could harm somebody later.
But it is clear for me that my father is not guilty because he seems to have some problems in the brain and I can forgive him because of thinking rational (which sometimes is difficult, bad things coming up from memory -> take one small glass of wine in the evening sometimes). Probably it is hereditary, I dont know. Research is needed.
Guiltiness is anyway in question (does somebody have a free will?) what brain researchers say.
I personally think its better for mankind trying to think more rational and logical and putting emotions more in the background. Of course not completely! Somehow some sapients seem to be swamped with the fast devolopment. Brain and genes are not adapting in same the speed.Emotions are often a problem for mankind e.g. politicians saying "we want all things better for you" but instead people are dying and are foltered brutally. But even violence and war could be a natural mechanism of regulation (dependent of our roots) but not effective enough yet to diminish overpopulation.
Regards
sdb
Posted by ed_uk on May 21, 2005, at 13:04:43
In reply to Grandmother (90 years) takes since 30 years a bz., posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 13:00:05
Hi Sdb!
>I dont seem to have these aggressive tendencies, but I am somehow afraid I could harm somebody later.
I don't think you will. You seem like a nice gentle person to me :-)
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 13:11:57
In reply to Re: Grandmother (90 years) takes since 30 years a bz. » sdb, posted by ed_uk on May 21, 2005, at 13:04:43
Thank you ed_uk, you give me much confidence and courage.
Kind regards
sdb
Posted by Paulbwell on May 21, 2005, at 16:17:36
In reply to Grandmother (90 years) takes since 30 years a bz., posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 13:00:05
> Thers a guy on this board, Fred potter who has been takiing Benzos for 41 years counting-starting with Librium in 1963 i think.
Cheers
Posted by jerrympls on May 22, 2005, at 1:53:53
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 4:32:02
> Many psychiatrists say:
>
> benzodiazepines will destroy your brain (Apart from not fully understood pharmacology). How would you as experienced longterm users of benzodiazepines rate this statement? (I have not big experiences but my grandmother (90 years) takes since 30 years a benzodiazepine, (oxazepam) she has the best memory you can imagine and does not seem to be tolerant)
>
> Is there somebody knowledgable who could rate this state of some psychiatrists pharmacologically?Benzo's won't destroy your brain. Change the chemistry, yeah - but they don't cause cell death.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 22, 2005, at 10:14:21
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by yxibow on May 21, 2005, at 12:59:04
> > > The benzo.org.uk crowd leans on the border of quackery as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > Please don't ... post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Members of the "benzo.org.uk crowd" may be here, too...
>
> Its splitting hairs but I guess I should have phrased it a little differently; I was referring to some information and doctors from the benzo.org.uk site, not people on this (dr bob) board who may place belief in that site. I think it was fairly clear, but I retract the prior.Thanks, but if the people who provide information are referred to as quacks, then the people who believe it may also feel put down...
Bob
Posted by chemist on May 22, 2005, at 11:40:03
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain- chemist, posted by sdb on May 21, 2005, at 11:35:03
> Hi chemist,
>
> Thanks for your information I will check it, when spare time is available. In medical school benzodiazepines education touch only the surface. You learn a lot of pharmakinetics, indications, and blabla but it is a poor fact that good quality knowledge about these receptors is rare (we are at the beginning to understand mechanisms of receptors, their substructures and role to the ligands. I will follow the interesting research as much as possible. We have extensive research in GABA-Receptors here at the institute). All I know in "practice" is that anterograde amnesia is mostly reversible (this is what most md's say in practice). But as always there are individuals right or left of the gauss curve and loss of memory could have other reasons e.g. age, problems with acetylcholine
>
> Regards
>
> sdb
>
hello there, chemist here...interesting you should mention ACh, it is (as you know) one of the ``hot'' targets...and the GABA studies at your institute - none of my business, of course, although i hope you are rubbing elbows with changeux or sussman or sixma or dougherty, if the institute is in pasadena - place you quite well...for the sake of returning with some pubs that have (as i am sure you and others know) broken new ground in sequence homology structure/function quantification for LGICs with quite impressive overlap in a.a.. sequence...brejc et al. 2001. Nature 411, 269-276 (in my opinion, a very nice paper indeed, and very thorough alignment data - clear and well-thought - for AChBP with 5-HT$_{3}$, GABA$_{\rm A\,C}$, and glycine receptors, not to mention human ~ mollusc connection!);
miyazawa et al. 2003. Nature 423, 949-955 (another ``wow'');
something by henchman...out of mccammon's group (UCSD), perhaps 2003, late (?)...a docking study with alpha$_{7}$ and (i think) ACh...but there are numerous other mccammon pubs along this line, brooks (b., not c.) too...
grutter, le nov\`ere, and changeux (pick any of them);
one i like for the jumble of science words, nice work, and a twist on alzheimer's and nornicotine by dickerson and janda, 2003. PNAS Early Edition, pnas.1332847100...where else will you find APP, an actual reference to Alzheimer's 99-year-old pub, a tie-in between alzheimer's and the maillard reaction, a cameo from a schiff base, and an amadori rearrangement? how they missed the goldberg variations, i shall never know...yet very nice, if you have not read it, with high detail of mechanistic putative channel for glycation of A$\beta$, specifically where the $\beta$-sheet secondary structure is evident - KLVFF - and there you have it, slow-going on the fibrils courtesy of K, and an open door for diabetes mellitus and such...
all the best, chemist
Posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 15:03:11
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain- chemis » sdb, posted by chemist on May 22, 2005, at 11:40:03
My personal meaning about Ashton's site is (of course I did not read all things, so perhaps I could have overseen something):
-its very, very good that there is an institution with experience in bz withdrawal, which could be useful for many but not all persons.
-the site gives some commonly known things about bz's, but gives definitely not more worthy knowledge about bz's. I think everything should be based on serious research. According to a study it was observed that bz's can reverse impaired length of axons and dendrites in individuals after long distress
-the site is "built" to their duty, but I think Ashtons site could be more neutral, it seems for me only to give bad aspects of bz's and that could bz users make very anxious hearing about what "poison" (perhaps a bit over exaggerated) they eat. The site is perhaps too much generalized, too less differentiated. I dont know what my grandmother would think about this site - ninety years old (30y bz's), overall happy with perhaps diminished mood swings due to bz's driving with her car known routes to grandchilds. Perhaps I would make her anxious, but I dont know. I will not replace any pills with placebos to do interesting research.Regards
sdb
Posted by Paulbwell on May 24, 2005, at 3:38:02
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Ashton's site, posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 15:03:11
F*ck Ashton and her properganda,
If need be i will take the 45yo benzos for the forseeable future.
I suffered enought when younger and it severly screwed with my life.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2005, at 8:23:30
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Ashton's site » sdb, posted by Paulbwell on May 24, 2005, at 3:38:02
> F*ck Ashton and her properganda
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Others with those views may be here, too...
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Mr.Scott on May 30, 2005, at 7:28:19
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 4:32:02
I doubt any more or less than ssri's which have caused me to develop myoclonus and akathisia along with other signs of neurological impairment. That said...I would avoid benzos if possible due to the issue of nasty dependence for many.
Posted by sdb on May 30, 2005, at 7:49:53
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain » sdb, posted by Mr.Scott on May 30, 2005, at 7:28:19
ssris gave me OCD thoughts and they are memorized in my brain(!). Bz's and betablockers gave never such horrible things. But my experiences with Bz's or mood-stabilizers are very limited.
I took once clonazepam for 9 days and stopped immediately with absolutely no problems. I think it depends what problem you want to cure with benzos and what history of addiction you have.
Posted by sdb on May 30, 2005, at 7:53:12
In reply to Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain -mr. scott, posted by sdb on May 30, 2005, at 7:49:53
Bye the way, it also depends of the brain itself thus of some receptors in a Area.
Some persons are more "potent" to have addiction problems due to their receptors in their brain.
Posted by Mr.Scott on June 1, 2005, at 18:11:59
In reply to Re: Benzodiazepines - Destruction of brain -mr. scott, posted by sdb on May 30, 2005, at 7:53:12
I don't believe I'm addicted to benzo's, just that I'm physically dependent upon them and also that they might take 'something' more than just anxiety out of me if that makes any sense at all.
Everyone is different...I just wish I had the all illusory 'control'...and when dependent you don't.
What I would truly love is to be totally med free for a couple months just to know what I actually do and don't need these days. Then I'd take it and shut up and stop thinking about it so much...I hope.
All things considered however, life could be much worse and I am grateful I've come this far considering how awful things once were.
scott
This is the end of the thread.
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