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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 16:17:15
Today is day 2 of taking Stattera. Yesterday I felt nauseous and tired. However, I hadn't slept much the night before. Today I doubled the dose (25 mg AM and PM). I feel nothing at all. Not tired (i.e. not more than usual) or sick to my stomach. My target dose is 80 mg. In couple of days I will take that. Then I will just wait.
I really don't think this is going to help. Yeah, I know that's a sh*tty attitude, but that's how I feel.
Maxime
Posted by ed_uk on April 28, 2005, at 16:26:47
In reply to Strattera, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 16:17:15
Hi Maxi!
>Not tired (i.e. not more than usual) or sick to my stomach.....
No side effects, that's what I like to hear :-)
>I really don't think this is going to help.
I'm hopeful :-)
Love Ed xxx
Posted by Chairman_MAO on April 28, 2005, at 16:51:00
In reply to Strattera, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 16:17:15
Strattera was an orphaned antidepressant floating around Lilly's lab. It's has one strength: it is not a "controlled substance", and so they can market it aggressively using that angle. Pretty stupid if you ask me, since what makes something a controlled substance is merely how many people wish to take it. So we should buy Strattera because no one likes taking it? Sounds great!
I also love how Lilly calls it "the first nonstimulant treatment for ADHD". What about TCAs? Or reboxetine. Oh, wait, they blocked FDA approval of reboxetine. Or selegiline? Man, I shouldn't get started with this, I'll never stop.
Honestly, I think that crap is toxic. Lilly doesn't have to publish any studies it doesn't want to. They put a black-box warning about liver damage on Strattera despite only two officially recognized cases of atomoxetine-induced liver damage. For some reason, I think there's something they're not telling us.
Listen to your body. I never felt the way you are describing when I started Parnate, buprenorphine, or any other medication that ever did any good for me.
Posted by zeugma on April 28, 2005, at 18:11:35
In reply to Re: Strattera, posted by Chairman_MAO on April 28, 2005, at 16:51:00
> Strattera was an orphaned antidepressant floating around Lilly's lab. It's has one strength: it is not a "controlled substance", and so they can market it aggressively using that angle. Pretty stupid if you ask me, since what makes something a controlled substance is merely how many people wish to take it. So we should buy Strattera because no one likes taking it? Sounds great!>>
well, I would say it's not quite that simple. Strattera causes less weight loss than the stims (not a trivial consideration). It is also not anxiogenic- at least not for me. And i think that Strattera has antidepressant properties, although it also has depressant properties (i.e., it's an NRI, so it is mood-elevating, but it is also metabolized to a kappa partial agonist, which I agree is anything but "fun" to experience. But for some reason this effect did not set in until well into treatment. i don't know why, but Lilly probably does).
>
> I also love how Lilly calls it "the first nonstimulant treatment for ADHD". What about TCAs? Or reboxetine. Oh, wait, they blocked FDA approval of reboxetine. Or selegiline? Man, I shouldn't get started with this, I'll never stop.
>
it's the first nonstimulant FDA-approved for ADHD. my love for FDA approval systems, and their convenient tie-ins to marketing copy, probably is similar to your own (i.e, nearly nil). I can't comment on reboxetine, but I found it more effective for ADHD than nortriptyline. (By the way, do you really consider the MAOI's to be the only true AD's, or do you also include the TCA's? It is perhaps relevant that FDA approval played no role in the identification of imipramine as an AD.)
> Honestly, I think that crap is toxic. Lilly doesn't have to publish any studies it doesn't want to. They put a black-box warning about liver damage on Strattera despite only two officially recognized cases of atomoxetine-induced liver damage. For some reason, I think there's something they're not telling us.>>Agreed. It may not have to do with liver toxicity, though.
>
> Listen to your body. I never felt the way you are describing when I started Parnate, buprenorphine, or any other medication that ever did any good for me.CMAO, you've put me in the odd position of defending Strattera, but it is a very qualified defense. it worked for me for a while. I think the TCA's are better medications (infinitely better). But i hope it works for her.
(sorry, maxime, to use the third person there. I hope it works for you.)
-z
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2005, at 19:06:24
In reply to Re: Strattera » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on April 28, 2005, at 18:11:35
I hope it works for you too Maxime. You sound like you're tolerating it that's a start. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 22:45:49
In reply to Re: Strattera » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on April 28, 2005, at 18:11:35
"but it is also metabolized to a kappa partial agonist, which I agree is anything but "fun" to experience. But for some reason this effect did not set in until well into treatment."
Z, what does the above mean?
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 22:48:40
In reply to Re: Strattera, posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2005, at 19:06:24
> I hope it works for you too Maxime. You sound like you're tolerating it that's a start. Fondly, Phillipa
Thanks Phillipa. I actually became very nauseous after my second dose and eventually vomitted. Lovely.
Maxime
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2005, at 22:54:20
In reply to Re: Strattera » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 22:48:40
Maxime, I don't care what you say. You're a "fighter" and you WILL win one way or the other. And I mean in a positive way. I've been called a fighter too. No matter how miserable I may be I refuse to give up. That's how I feel. Fondly,Phillipa
Posted by alohashirt on April 28, 2005, at 22:59:42
In reply to Strattera, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 16:17:15
Maxime,
My pdoc took about four monthsto titrate upto a dose of 80mg.
He advised that the side effects can be icky otherwise. I didn't have any side effects and had some symptom releif.
Posted by stresser on April 28, 2005, at 23:20:30
In reply to Re: Strattera » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 22:48:40
Maxime,
I tried Strattera, and it really worked for me as an ADD med. I was more alert, on task, in the moment etc. I couldn't take it because it made my very tired, and I felt drugged through the day. I tried it for two months and had to move on to Concerta, which I am trying for one month right now.
The Strattera did make me VERY thirsty, and a little dizzy and s l o w at first, but that deminished over time. I felt very calm, and people noticed how calm I had become. It was nice, because I'm an active, always moving around person. I would like that part back also. I guess I can't have it both ways. Sigh! -L
Posted by zeugma on April 29, 2005, at 3:54:27
In reply to Re: Strattera » zeugma, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 22:45:49
No one knows for sure. Stimulation of the kappa opiate receptor is associated with dysphoria and also with pain relief. Again, I don't know if this is why I developed problems after almost a year on strattera. It was the best year of my life.
-z
Posted by Maxime on April 29, 2005, at 20:08:28
In reply to Re: Strattera » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2005, at 22:54:20
> Maxime, I don't care what you say. You're a "fighter" and you WILL win one way or the other. And I mean in a positive way. I've been called a fighter too. No matter how miserable I may be I refuse to give up. That's how I feel. Fondly,Phillipa
Please don't say that about me. You don't really know me. You don't know my past, what I have done or what I am capable of doing.
I know you mean well Phillipa, but believe me when I say I am a very complicated person and no has ever managed to figure me out and I will do things when people least expect it.
I can't say more than that.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on April 29, 2005, at 20:17:55
In reply to Re: Strattera » Maxime, posted by stresser on April 28, 2005, at 23:20:30
Hi, well that's the problem. I was lethargic BEFORE I started the Strattera. Now it's even worse. Yesterday was the only "normal" day I had (despite throwing up) because I took L-tyrosine which gave me a boost.
Today I took both doses and experienced extreme tiredness. No nausea. But I am so tired to begin with I don't how much the Strattera is contributing to it. I feel a little more alert once it wears off so I know it is adding to my tiredness. If I get any calmer I will be in coma.
Sigh. What did that psychopharmacologist think this would be a good med for me?
Maxime
> Maxime,
> I tried Strattera, and it really worked for me as an ADD med. I was more alert, on task, in the moment etc. I couldn't take it because it made my very tired, and I felt drugged through the day. I tried it for two months and had to move on to Concerta, which I am trying for one month right now.
> The Strattera did make me VERY thirsty, and a little dizzy and s l o w at first, but that deminished over time. I felt very calm, and people noticed how calm I had become. It was nice, because I'm an active, always moving around person. I would like that part back also. I guess I can't have it both ways. Sigh! -L
Posted by MidnightBlue on April 30, 2005, at 0:09:43
In reply to Re: Strattera, posted by Maxime on April 29, 2005, at 20:17:55
Maxime,
Thinking of you! Hang in there.
Hugs,
MidnightBlue
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 2, 2005, at 10:17:08
In reply to Re: Strattera » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on April 28, 2005, at 18:11:35
I do consider the TCAs way closer in effect than SSRIs to what an antidepressant should be, but they still are not there. An antidepressant should induce a euthymic zest for life, a more-or-less indefatigable sense of genuine well-being. True remission from dysthymia for me felt like being born again, or waking up from a 24-year nightmare. If you take an MAOI and it works, you will know what I'm talking about. If I had to choose an AD besides an MAOI to take (well, one from the US market), it would be desipramine. That definitely put a smile on my face at times, while no SSRI ever did, that's for sure.
NO drug intended for people with psychiatric disorders should have ANY kappa agonist activity; it can do nothing except cause some dysphoria at BEST, and induce psychosis at worst. Buprenorphine, which is known among the opioids for being an extraordinarily effective antidepressant, is a kappa antagonist.
Posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 13:01:28
In reply to Re: Strattera » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 2, 2005, at 10:17:08
Parnate was a dream for me until it stopped working and desipramine made me lactate. I'm really f*cked aren't I? *SCREAMS!!!!!!!*
Maxime
> I do consider the TCAs way closer in effect than SSRIs to what an antidepressant should be, but they still are not there. An antidepressant should induce a euthymic zest for life, a more-or-less indefatigable sense of genuine well-being. True remission from dysthymia for me felt like being born again, or waking up from a 24-year nightmare. If you take an MAOI and it works, you will know what I'm talking about. If I had to choose an AD besides an MAOI to take (well, one from the US market), it would be desipramine. That definitely put a smile on my face at times, while no SSRI ever did, that's for sure.
>
> NO drug intended for people with psychiatric disorders should have ANY kappa agonist activity; it can do nothing except cause some dysphoria at BEST, and induce psychosis at worst. Buprenorphine, which is known among the opioids for being an extraordinarily effective antidepressant, is a kappa antagonist.
Posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 13:14:24
In reply to Strattera, posted by Maxime on April 28, 2005, at 16:17:15
Okay, it's only been a week, not quite. But I can't take this Strattera. I can't take being so tired, and then when I am awake I am nauseous and I have thrown up enough (I have a fear of vomitting but not emetophobia).
So bye-bye Strattera! You are just one of some 40 meds I have courted over the years. You are rubbish! Very expensive rubbish!
Maxime
PS. I normally give side effects about 3 weeks but this is just too much for me to handle. My pdoc wanted me to start on 40 mg but started on 25 mg. I'm glad I did.
Posted by stresser on May 2, 2005, at 16:06:52
In reply to Re: Bye Bye Strattera, posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 13:14:24
I understand you Maxime. Enough is enough, and I don't blame you for not wanting to walk around in a drugged daze. I couldn't do it either. Good luck with finding something else. -L
Posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 20:20:54
In reply to Re: Bye Bye Strattera, posted by stresser on May 2, 2005, at 16:06:52
> I understand you Maxime. Enough is enough, and I don't blame you for not wanting to walk around in a drugged daze. I couldn't do it either. Good luck with finding something else. -L
Thanks. For now there is nothing else. It was Strattera or ECT according to the psychopharmacologist. And since ECT is not an option for me, it's nothing.
Maxime
Posted by alohashirt on May 2, 2005, at 22:30:29
In reply to Re: Bye Bye Strattera, posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 13:14:24
I am puzzled - if I read your earlier post correctly you
went from 25mg to 50mg after two days. I think my pdoc took four months to get from 18mg to 50mg and described it as a medication that required careful titration.Strattera isn't rubbish but it does have non-trivial side effects
and demands a patient approach from physician and patient.It may be worth working with a physician who has had a lot of experience prescribing this pretty new medication.
Posted by stresser on May 2, 2005, at 22:33:41
In reply to Re: Bye Bye Strattera » stresser, posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 20:20:54
You don't have Adderall, Concerta etc. as an option? When I was taking Strattera, I was hoping there was something to augment along with it to combat the tiredness that comes along with the medication. My doctor said it would wear off with time, but it did not do that in my case. Very unfortunate for the both of us. -L
Posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 23:10:00
In reply to Huh? (Re: Bye Bye Strattera, posted by alohashirt on May 2, 2005, at 22:30:29
Hi, well since Strattera has only been available in Canada for less than 2 months, it's going to be hard.
The starting dose is suppose to be 40 mg (I'm just going by what the insert says and rx.com ). So I started at 25 mg because that was lowest amount my pdoc was given as a sample. He told me start at 25 mg for one day (to make sure I didn't get a rash) and then go 40 mg. So I tried 25 twice a day for one day just to see. I went back down to 25 mg a day since then. I can't tolerate 25 mg a day. I don't see how it's going to help me. I have been throwing up on it. I can't take it. If a med is making you throw up then it's bad. I have never had such a strong reaction to a med before with the exception of Nardil (parnate was fine).
I live in f*cking Canada where I can't just go out and find a new physician. I would like to invite all Americans to Canada and experience our so called Health Care system. Then you can return to the U.S. and tell Hillary Clinton why our system doesn't work since she wants the U.S. to have the same system as Canada.
I hate myself and I hate meds ... they should have let me die.
Maxime
> I am puzzled - if I read your earlier post correctly you
> went from 25mg to 50mg after two days. I think my pdoc took four months to get from 18mg to 50mg and described it as a medication that required careful titration.
>
> Strattera isn't rubbish but it does have non-trivial side effects
> and demands a patient approach from physician and patient.
>
> It may be worth working with a physician who has had a lot of experience prescribing this pretty new medication.
Posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 23:17:29
In reply to Re: Bye Bye Strattera, posted by stresser on May 2, 2005, at 22:33:41
We had Adderall and then some children in the U.S. died and/or had strokes from it so they pulled in Canada. I was doing okay with 30 mg Adderall XR. Concerta ... I don't know. Ritalin and Ritalin SR made me crash and burn. Concerta is just longer acting Ritalin, right?
And then there is the throwing up part that I really can't handle and nausea. Although maybe I should go back on it because it would help me lose weight which I drastically need to do.
I need help! I need a REAL psychiatrist. I need someone, something, ..... and at that the same time I want to push everyone away before they push me away. That's the truth.
I'm sorry L, I am not mad at you ... I'm mad at myself and just really tired and frustrated.
*cries*
Maxime .... the fat bitch loser from hell.
> You don't have Adderall, Concerta etc. as an option? When I was taking Strattera, I was hoping there was something to augment along with it to combat the tiredness that comes along with the medication. My doctor said it would wear off with time, but it did not do that in my case. Very unfortunate for the both of us. -L
Posted by Maxime on May 3, 2005, at 9:09:56
In reply to Re: Bye Bye Strattera » stresser, posted by Maxime on May 2, 2005, at 23:17:29
I'm sorry for being such a bitch in my past posts. It's mainly frustration. Frustration with meds and feeling so worthless and hopeless all the time. I truly feel like I am broken beyong repair.
I'm very sorry for being rude.
Maxime
Posted by stresser on May 3, 2005, at 14:55:52
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Maxime on May 3, 2005, at 9:09:56
Don't worry about being a bitch! Everyone has those days, and I'm sure I would be one also if I were in your shoes. ( I am one anyway!!! )
I didn't realise that you live in Canada and had tried Adderall XR. I didn't get the entire story about the children who died taking the Adderall, and it concerns me because my daughter takes it. Now I have a new worry!!! I know it works much better than Concerta, and I am switching to Adderall XR myself. I am much more alert, and my mind is "there" with Adderall. Concerta is more like a placebo for me, unless I just need a much stronger dosage. I hope you can find some help. Keep me posted, and don't worry about letting off steam!!!!! -L
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