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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by university on April 25, 2005, at 13:33:19
I've always been wary of drug manufacturers' seemingly arbitrary designation of when a drug becomes "expired." I know that some drugs potentiate over time--and others diminish in potency.
I have tons of Prozac samples, but they all have expiration dates from 1998-1999. Does anyone know with any certainty in what way bubble/foil encased, encapsulated fluoxetine might change (if at all) over the course of a few years?
Thanks.
Posted by JayDee on April 25, 2005, at 14:18:15
In reply to Expired Prozac, posted by university on April 25, 2005, at 13:33:19
I have alot of well-expired brand prozac and would like to know if it's still good also.
Posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 18:01:46
In reply to Re: Expired Prozac, posted by JayDee on April 25, 2005, at 14:18:15
Where's Ed? He's not on the Board at all today and I know he would have the answer. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Mr.Scott on April 25, 2005, at 21:33:42
In reply to Re: Expired Prozac, posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 18:01:46
The military did a study on this very topic. The length of the study was 9 years and then it ran out of money. During that period of time almost no drug had any change in potency either over the counter or prescription. Antibiotics, antifungals and anti-virals were the exception.
Scott
Posted by university on April 26, 2005, at 0:26:32
In reply to Re: Expired Prozac, posted by Mr.Scott on April 25, 2005, at 21:33:42
> The military did a study on this very topic. The length of the study was 9 years and then it ran out of money. During that period of time almost no drug had any change in potency either over the counter or prescription. Antibiotics, antifungals and anti-virals were the exception.
>
> ScottThanks, Scott, and everyone. Scott: do you have any information that might lead me to the results of the study; were they ever published--even partially--anywhere?
I have long suspected that drug expiration dates were largely a convenient way for drug companies and others to make even more money. Consumers will generally ignore such corporate "warnings," except when it comes to drugs, a world about which the average consumer knows very, very little. I mean, it surprises me how many people look at a typical American drug store aisle--say the allergy/cold aisle--and do not realize that of all of those hundreds of products--of all of those ostensible "choices," only a few drugs actually exist. Indeed, only a few drug *types* exist in such an aisles.
So when a manufacturer states "Expiration date XX/XX on a package of diphenhydramine, the unwitting consumer who bought it once for Tommy's sniffles and used one dose will likely--even gladly--buy a fresh package the next time s/he needs it. Ditto Rx drugs.
I guess it takes consumers forced for whatever reason(s) (in our cases, depression and its oft-required trial-and-error cycles) to actually learn something about drugs to begin to see things for what they are.
I was just lamenting the drug companies' tendency to make more and more drugs OTC (e.g., Nicorette, Claritin, NSAIDs, acid inhibitors) in an attempt to make more money (as many consumers would pay, perhaps, $10 for a 30-day supply of Claritin under insurance, but now must pay up to $50 for the same amount) the other day. My colleague, who is a smart person, said "yeah, but they have to wait a certain amount of time before they can go OTC..." In other words, she was confusing the patent-expiration process with drugs suddenly becoming "safe enough" to be OTC.
Don't get me wrong, I rather like having more of a variety of OTC drugs--I just don't like the reasons (I believe) they've become OTC.
Sorry for the nonsequiter/rant :) Just a pet peeve of mine...
Posted by Mr.Scott on April 26, 2005, at 0:32:02
In reply to Re: Expired Prozac - Big Pharma Greed, posted by university on April 26, 2005, at 0:26:32
I actually heard about it from the local tv news, but I bet a little searching on google would dig it up.
Scott
Posted by chemist on April 26, 2005, at 1:00:25
In reply to Re: Expired Prozac - Big Pharma Greed, posted by university on April 26, 2005, at 0:26:32
> > The military did a study on this very topic. The length of the study was 9 years and then it ran out of money. During that period of time almost no drug had any change in potency either over the counter or prescription. Antibiotics, antifungals and anti-virals were the exception.
> >
> > Scott
>
> Thanks, Scott, and everyone. Scott: do you have any information that might lead me to the results of the study; were they ever published--even partially--anywhere?
>
> I have long suspected that drug expiration dates were largely a convenient way for drug companies and others to make even more money. Consumers will generally ignore such corporate "warnings," except when it comes to drugs, a world about which the average consumer knows very, very little. I mean, it surprises me how many people look at a typical American drug store aisle--say the allergy/cold aisle--and do not realize that of all of those hundreds of products--of all of those ostensible "choices," only a few drugs actually exist. Indeed, only a few drug *types* exist in such an aisles.
>
> So when a manufacturer states "Expiration date XX/XX on a package of diphenhydramine, the unwitting consumer who bought it once for Tommy's sniffles and used one dose will likely--even gladly--buy a fresh package the next time s/he needs it. Ditto Rx drugs.
>
> I guess it takes consumers forced for whatever reason(s) (in our cases, depression and its oft-required trial-and-error cycles) to actually learn something about drugs to begin to see things for what they are.
>
> I was just lamenting the drug companies' tendency to make more and more drugs OTC (e.g., Nicorette, Claritin, NSAIDs, acid inhibitors) in an attempt to make more money (as many consumers would pay, perhaps, $10 for a 30-day supply of Claritin under insurance, but now must pay up to $50 for the same amount) the other day. My colleague, who is a smart person, said "yeah, but they have to wait a certain amount of time before they can go OTC..." In other words, she was confusing the patent-expiration process with drugs suddenly becoming "safe enough" to be OTC.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I rather like having more of a variety of OTC drugs--I just don't like the reasons (I believe) they've become OTC.
>
> Sorry for the nonsequiter/rant :) Just a pet peeve of mine...
>hello there, chemist here...i am not aware of the military study mentioned by scott, yet it rings true. the expiration dates are largely for our collective safety.
most people store medication in the restroom/loo: this is arguably the worst place to store a chemical formulation that will in fact undergo change, if you will, in a humid and warm environment. it also invites curious visitors to help themselves to things they ought leave well enough alone. no person wants to be the one who calls the parent of a child who just ingested the ``pretty candy'' that they discovered in their playmate's parent's medicine chest.
the u.s. FDA keeps an updated Orange Book - google it - available on-line. you may enter generic or brand names and get information on therapeutic equivalence (TE). the creams and ointments usually come up short against the brand name, as the delivery system is done on the cheap, and bioequivalence is not achieved in requisite time. tablets and capsules in general are rated AB (AA is the gold standard).
any medication in liquid form should be stored as directed and consumed before expiration. why? if you leave a medication that contains ethyl alcohol and water in the warm glow of the sun - perched on a windowsill - and do not tighten the cap, the EtOH will evaporate first, and the medication - which is likely less soluble in water than in the miscible water/EtOH blend - will precipitate and/or become concentrated in time.
foil-packed tabs should go the distance, as scott rightly asserts. however, foil does have a way of peeling back, and 6 or 7 years is plenty of time for at least a bit of product degradation to occur. if the greed of the pharmas is on your radar, you can do a double-whammy: get a new script for generic fluoxetine, thus ensuring that your meds are fresh while depriving the folks at lilly with income for their off-patent product.
the FDA orange book is at:
http://www.fda.gov/cder/ob/default.htm
i just entered fluoxetine and see that solution, capsule, and tablet are available....all the best, chemist
Posted by etoc on April 26, 2005, at 8:40:30
In reply to Expired Prozac, posted by university on April 25, 2005, at 13:33:19
A Military study showed Aspirin from the Vietnam era was safe, potent and still very useable during the late 1990's!
The only medications that I have heard of that can actually become dangerous, are certain antibiotics, like tetracycline and erythromycin.
I have taken Percocet left over from an operation from the late 1980's!!! It worked just fine and no problems! It seem's chemical compunds (which most medications are) don't seem to really degrade, provided they aren't liquid medications or emulsions and are kept in a dry place, away from sun or other light.
My friend took left-over Prozac that expired about 4 years earlier. No issue with it
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 15:55:05
In reply to Expired Prozac, posted by university on April 25, 2005, at 13:33:19
> I've always been wary of drug manufacturers' seemingly arbitrary designation of when a drug becomes "expired." I know that some drugs potentiate over time--and others diminish in potency.
>
> I have tons of Prozac samples, but they all have expiration dates from 1998-1999. Does anyone know with any certainty in what way bubble/foil encased, encapsulated fluoxetine might change (if at all) over the course of a few years?
>
> Thanks.The expiry dates are obligatory, based on government regulations. The manufacturer warrants that the medication will have its purported safety, efficacy or good quality *at least* until the expiry date, under reasonable storage conditions.
Now, I doubt that a med that once had a 3 or 4 year expiry date is suddenly going to start decomposing the day after the calendar flips a page.
Given reasonable storage conditions (out of direct light, away from high temps, reasonably low humidity), there is no reason to suspect that expired meds will not have similar characteristics to those just recently manufactured....but for those few drugs we know have limited shelf-life....mostly antibiotics, but some more common drugs....e.g. aspirin (if they smell like vinegar, they're garbage).
There are numerous articles in Pubmed, but none with abstracts. It's frustrating.
Pharmaceutical companies routinely ship drugs at or near expiry to countries of the third world, as humanitarian aid. (I'm sure they get a nice tax deduction for their efforts, too.) I've never seen any evidence that this practise leads to harm or adverse events.
As noted by others, the US military has vast warehouses full all sorts of things, and sometimes it is only the military's determination of shelf life that informs all the rest of us.
I wouldn't have the slightest qualms about using expired antidepressants (again, assuming proper storage). But then again, I'm inherently cheap. I don't like spending money I don't have to.
Lar
Posted by university on April 26, 2005, at 16:38:26
In reply to Re: Expired Prozac » university, posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 15:55:05
Thanks, everyone, for your input; I appreciate it.
This is the end of the thread.
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