![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cubbybear on March 26, 2005, at 7:17:59
I realize that this note might get re-directed, but I couldn't help commenting on the news story that I read on the Yahoo website tonight, re: the Minn. school shootings. Those good old reporters positively "have to" mention in the lead paragraph that the shooter was taking an anti-depressant, namely Prozac, prior to the rampage. For once I can empathize with the drug manufacturers over this useless sensationalist garbage. I mean, the FDA has already mandated a black box warning on every AD about administering them to young people, so what is mentioning the shooter's taking of Prozac in the article intended to accomplish now? Am I missing something?
Posted by Iansf on March 26, 2005, at 12:06:14
In reply to the press does it again, posted by cubbybear on March 26, 2005, at 7:17:59
> I realize that this note might get re-directed, but I couldn't help commenting on the news story that I read on the Yahoo website tonight, re: the Minn. school shootings. Those good old reporters positively "have to" mention in the lead paragraph that the shooter was taking an anti-depressant, namely Prozac, prior to the rampage. For once I can empathize with the drug manufacturers over this useless sensationalist garbage. I mean, the FDA has already mandated a black box warning on every AD about administering them to young people, so what is mentioning the shooter's taking of Prozac in the article intended to accomplish now? Am I missing something?
The information the boy was on Prozac is relevant to the story. The fact the warnings are on the box makes it relevant. His use of Prozac also reveals he was being treated for a mental imbalance of some sort, presumably depression, and it indicates at least one medical professional was aware the boy was having trouble. If the reporter moves beyond the facts to say or imply the boy's use of Prozac led him to commit the crime, then he is editorializing. The charges against Prozac, whether ill or well founded, are out there and already highly publicized. Reporters can't simply ignore the issue. They would be derelict in their duty if they deliberately omitted the information.
Posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 12:23:49
In reply to Re: the press does it again » cubbybear, posted by Iansf on March 26, 2005, at 12:06:14
I guess I have a different point of view about it. I have a 10 year old son that is autistic. His dr. recommended to me last year that we try Zoloft. After hearing and researching the homicidal/suicidal reactions in children on AD's, I decided against it.I think parent's need to be aware that this is a very real risk. If the media didn't report that piece of the puzzle, something would be missing.
Nobody can say for certain that this boy's medication caused him to react this way, but from my own personal experience on AD's and how bizarre I felt as an adult, Christian woman.. I can only imagine how I would've reacted as a child with all those weird thoughts racing through my head.
Posted by Ritch on March 26, 2005, at 17:30:51
In reply to Re: the press does it again, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 12:23:49
>
> I guess I have a different point of view about it. I have a 10 year old son that is autistic. His dr. recommended to me last year that we try Zoloft. After hearing and researching the homicidal/suicidal reactions in children on AD's, I decided against it.
>
> I think parent's need to be aware that this is a very real risk. If the media didn't report that piece of the puzzle, something would be missing.
>
> Nobody can say for certain that this boy's medication caused him to react this way, but from my own personal experience on AD's and how bizarre I felt as an adult, Christian woman.. I can only imagine how I would've reacted as a child with all those weird thoughts racing through my head.
>
>The medication could have induced the violent behavior. If he was actually bipolar and the antidepressants were making him aggressive and hostile. I've been off Celexa now for two weeks, and I'm not experiencing the transient hostility during my mood cycling that I had previously..
Posted by Racer on March 26, 2005, at 17:33:07
In reply to Re: the press does it again, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 12:23:49
Have you read any of what Temple Grandin has written about medications for Autism? I just read something she wrote on that subject that was fascinating! Although I'd definitely say to go with a much lower dose than what's prescribed for depression, I'd look into if further if I were you, especially since your son is still young enough to correct some of the sensory processing problems he may be having.
She also writes a LOT about epilepsy and autism, undiagnosed epilepsy which doesn't usually show up on EEGs unless the patient has a seizure on the table.
Honestly, Spriggy, this is a subject very close to my heart, and I hope that you will consider whether to look into other drugs to help lower your son's internal distress before he hits puberty.
Sorry if it's out of line to say any of that, but I hope it was useful info for you.
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 18:59:04
In reply to Re: the press does it again » Spriggy, posted by Racer on March 26, 2005, at 17:33:07
Also Spriggy the mother in my neighborhood who has the austistic child will not allow her children to receive vaccinations ever again. Her youngest child has never received any. There is some evidence that they contribute to it. They contain formaldaehyde. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 19:18:03
In reply to Re: the press does it again, posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 18:59:04
Oh, I am 100% convinced my son's autism is due to mercury poisoning via his vaccines.
We have home video of him before his 18 months shots. I had a "normal" son. He developed on track, did everything by the book. Had his routine shots ( he had 5 in one day), he ran a high fever, had diarrhea, ended up in the hospital with dehydration.. and from that point on, my son "stopped."
He stopped talking, waving, pointing, being alert. He simply stopped.
Now I know this is still a controversy but I was there. I know my son and I know what I saw.
NOt to mention, when we traced his vaccine lot numbers, we found out he received over 60 mg's of mercury in ONE day. When he should've never been allowed over 2 mg's according to the EPA's safety limits.
We have been going through the chelation process for a year now and in this year, my son who stopped speaking, can now make short sentences.
So no doubt to us, it was merucry poisoning from his shots.
Racer-- I would be willing to read/listen to any input you can give on what type of meds helped. We tried Risperdol through the summer and it was not the drug for him. After that experience, it scared me to try another psych drug on him.But I am not the least bit offended and appreciate your heart for this issue.
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 20:58:46
In reply to my son;autism, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 19:18:03
This mother won't put her son {6 I believe] on any meds. She is involved with a lot organizations on autism. So, not to change the subject, we take these supposedly safe medications to help us with anxiety and depression and mood swings. How safe are they really. The drug companies all use different fillers which alter the meds effectiveness. Which is why I'm sticking with the namebrand valium and stopping[slowly] the AD's. All they've done for me is make me sicker and keep me from working. That's another reason why I'm using toxin free products. The only toxic ones are hair dye. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 21:12:51
In reply to Re: my son;autism » Spriggy, posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 20:58:46
ever since that experience with my oldest son (who will be 10 next month), I have never vaccinated either of my children again.
I think you'd have to put a loaded gun to my head for me to ever vaccinate my children again.
I lost my son forever. I love him with all I have but I will never know who that little boy would've been.
We are actually in a class action lawsuit againt Eli Lilly. Go figure.
My son is on a super special diet, he gets chelation treatment, I order his supplements through Kirkman labs, and do the best I can to keep him sheltered from toxins.
It's a tough road to walk.. this autistic world is so different than the world we are used to.
But I wouldn't trade my little man for any healthy, normal child in all the world.
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2005, at 21:22:03
In reply to Re: my son;autism, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 21:12:51
I wish I could give you her name so you could compare notes. But the rules preclude it. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 21:24:00
In reply to the press does it again, posted by cubbybear on March 26, 2005, at 7:17:59
> I realize that this note might get re-directed, but I couldn't help commenting on the news story that I read on the Yahoo website tonight, re: the Minn. school shootings. Those good old reporters positively "have to" mention in the lead paragraph that the shooter was taking an anti-depressant, namely Prozac, prior to the rampage. For once I can empathize with the drug manufacturers over this useless sensationalist garbage. I mean, the FDA has already mandated a black box warning on every AD about administering them to young people, so what is mentioning the shooter's taking of Prozac in the article intended to accomplish now? Am I missing something?
This was a deeply troubled young man, who called himself "Todesengel", the Angel of Death. What is most tragic is that his violent writings and drawings were ignored, and that he had access to firearms. Obviously, treatment with a pharmacological antidepressive agent was insufficient to help him. Seeking to isolate that one factor from among all the others is pointless, and trivializes the torment in his mind.
Lar
Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2005, at 21:52:47
In reply to Re: my son;autism, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 21:12:51
I hate to start a controversy but I just have to interject that the heartstrings of many who have children with autism or other serious conditions search, like all of us here, for a reason or cure for their condition.
But the avoidance of vaccinations, just as an example, at
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/4037stop.htm
which works with the CDC to inform the public about vaccinations, could cause up to a million preventable patient illnesses a year, which is completely preventable today. Sure, there is informed consent, and the theoretical chance that one out of a million people (or even smaller) who were innoculated for influenza could theoretically develop Guillain-Barre. On the other hand, as many as 36,000 people could die of the flu each year.
Sure, I fall into the category of people requesting new dental fillings to be plastic polymer instead of mercury amalgam (although mercury amalgam may actually be stronger), but in fact, that lies on the edge of truth and fiction as well. Same for the Aspartame fallacies about methanol (you'd have to drink an entire supermarket of diet drinks and then you'd probably have kidney failure from excess fluids). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that everyone has the right to believe as they wish, use alternative medicines (I also occasionally dabble in supplements), but there are consequences. And the consequences of not vaccinating children can be serious. We live in a society today free of polio because of intensive vaccination efforts in the last century. Sure, we learned from our mistakes, but lifetime incapacitation from a preventable illness tears my heartstrings as much as those who may feel otherwise.
My 2c
tidings
Posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 21:58:30
In reply to Re: my son;autism, posted by yxibow on March 26, 2005, at 21:52:47
I would never recommend to another person to not vaccinate. I completely understand your concerns.. and i Know they are valid. Don't get me wrong.
But, when it happens to your child, and it is something you deal with every single day, it puts an entirely different point of view on something.
They removed mercury/thimerosal from vaccines in 1999, so except for the flu vaccine, all mercury is gone so that is no longer a risk for anyone concerned.
Posted by Racer on March 27, 2005, at 0:53:35
In reply to my son;autism, posted by Spriggy on March 26, 2005, at 19:18:03
Well, I can't possibly tell you everything that Dr Grandin wrote on the subject, so I'll refer you to her book, "Thinking in Pictures", to read the whole section on medications.
Basically, she makes a really, really good point: there are a number of different forms and experiences of autism, so no one drug will be most helpful for a majority of autistics. She writes fairly extensively about differing forms of autism, and offers her theories on which meds might be most helpful for different forms.
Mostly, though, she's offering an explanation of how she perceives the world, augmented by what she's been told by other autistics. She herself was probably a classic Kanner's with a lot of great educational work that brought her to a level that allowed her to find a functional place in the world. One of the things that she wrote that most intrigued me was actually about the similarities of the sensory distortion she and other autistics experience and various forms of epilepsy. (And the fact that some drugs will make symptoms a lot worse for some autistics -- and that most autistics do not do well on neuroleptics.)
Oh, and she also states very strongly that most austistics require much, much lower doses of any psychopharmacologic medications than non-autistics. That an autistic on the therapeutic dose of, say, Prozac is much more likely to have overwhelming adverse effects, while a much lower dose may be the perfect medication to quiet anxiety, and ease the sensory distortion.
Hope something in there helps, and that you'll look into her books. (I'm assuming you're familiar with her, though? Seems every parent of an austistic child I've ever come across is...)
Posted by cubbybear on March 27, 2005, at 5:22:24
In reply to Re: my son;autism » Spriggy, posted by Racer on March 27, 2005, at 0:53:35
Not to disparage the significance of other posters' personal remarks or heartfelt experiences, but this post originally started out with my questioning the press coverage of the role of Prozac in the high school shootings but it got sidetracked totally to a discussion about vaccines and autism. I would think that the board should have split off a new thread for a fully separate issue, but I'm not sure if that's practical in every case. Maybe Dr. Bob can help get things back on track here somehow.
cubbybear
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 6:24:24
In reply to Re: What happened to my thread .. .?, posted by cubbybear on March 27, 2005, at 5:22:24
> Not to disparage the significance of other posters' personal remarks or heartfelt experiences, but this post originally started out with my questioning the press coverage of the role of Prozac in the high school shootings but it got sidetracked totally to a discussion about vaccines and autism. I would think that the board should have split off a new thread for a fully separate issue, but I'm not sure if that's practical in every case. Maybe Dr. Bob can help get things back on track here somehow.
> cubbybearI answered you, in the middle of the rest.
Lar
Posted by The_Resistance on March 27, 2005, at 6:54:48
In reply to Re: What happened to my thread .. .?, posted by cubbybear on March 27, 2005, at 5:22:24
> Not to disparage the significance of other posters' personal remarks or heartfelt experiences, but this post originally started out with my questioning the press coverage of the role of Prozac in the high school shootings but it got sidetracked totally to a discussion about vaccines and autism.
It does seem to have gone of track!
I think the origonal point you made was very interesting if depressing.I personally can no longer bring myself to read what is written in the mainstream media about mental health or drugs.
If you think the US Media is bad you should see the UK.
Titles like "Ritalin the Zombia drug".
I've seen Ritalin dresribed variously as a Sedative or an Amphetamine.
Most newspapers seem keen to peddle the lie that ADHD can be understood in terms of diet alone.There seem to be a lot of people who are anti drug out there, I don't really know why.
They'll seize anything and twist it to fit what they want.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 8:17:10
In reply to Re: What happened to my thread .. .?, posted by The_Resistance on March 27, 2005, at 6:54:48
> Most newspapers seem keen to peddle the lie that ADHD can be understood in terms of diet alone.
>
> There seem to be a lot of people who are anti drug out there, I don't really know why.
> They'll seize anything and twist it to fit what they want.With respect to the British press, such as the Guardian, I have discovered that they actually publish false data, and then create headlines therefrom. Example: Last summer, they published a headline about Prozac in drinking water. I found the primary research source, and not only was Prozac not found (acetominophen/paracetamol was, and others), there was proof that SSRI meds are fully degraded in sewage treatment facilities. The whole thing was a lie.
Anyway.
Newspapers are in the business of selling newpapers (and the ads they contain). TV news is in the business of selling advertising (via ratings). They're not there to inform us.
Lar
Posted by Spriggy on March 27, 2005, at 11:06:28
In reply to Re: What happened to my thread .. .? » The_Resistance, posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 8:17:10
I didn't intend to hijack your thread..
I wanted to respond about this recent school shooting becuase last night on Fox news, they reported the boy had been severely depressed BEFORE the medication. He also spiked his hair into "devil horns" to look "evil." and loved to watch very voilent movies.
My guess is that this kid was already extremely confused, depressed, and messed up before the meds.
The meds might have attributed to it somehow, but from what they said about him, he was already a very disturbed young man.
Posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2005, at 13:36:41
In reply to sorry cuddybear!, posted by Spriggy on March 27, 2005, at 11:06:28
Yes, the press seems to distort things. Maybe they should write about how many adolescents are helped by meds. This boy was definitely disturbed before the shooting. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by cubbybear on March 28, 2005, at 0:56:42
In reply to Re: What happened to my thread .. .?, posted by The_Resistance on March 27, 2005, at 6:54:48
Posted by cubbybear on March 28, 2005, at 1:15:54
In reply to sorry cuddybear!, posted by Spriggy on March 27, 2005, at 11:06:28
> I didn't intend to hijack your thread..
>
> I wanted to respond about this recent school shooting becuase last night on Fox news, they reported the boy had been severely depressed BEFORE the medication. He also spiked his hair into "devil horns" to look "evil." and loved to watch very voilent movies.
>
> My guess is that this kid was already extremely confused, depressed, and messed up before the meds.
>
> The meds might have attributed to it somehow, but from what they said about him, he was already a very disturbed young man.I've never been a fan of FOX news, because they seem to specialize in sensationalism, but if this is true--then we'd have to speculate that his therapy was inadequate and some other medication might have been called for--something more sedating.
P.S. I like your use of the word "hijack"! But no, I don't think you resorted to armed coercion.
cubbybear
Posted by lorilu on March 29, 2005, at 8:46:21
In reply to Re: sorry cuddybear!, posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2005, at 13:36:41
> Yes, the press seems to distort things. Maybe they should write about how many adolescents are helped by meds. This boy was definitely disturbed before the shooting. Fondly, Phillipa
The meds are being blamed... What about the gun? Obviously this kid had a problem before or he wouldn't have been put on the meds. Too bad no one thought of a mood stabilizer, parenting classes, whatever....I am not familar with the case.
I do know meds work for some kids (especially for my son who has OCD), although right now only 1 of my dozen or so students who are autistic takes meds. They are not a blanket answer , but that student it actually helped with sleep, aggression, and attention. Unfortunately the child had a side effect and is weaning off and the old behaviors started coming back. But with good reinforcement that is fading, too bad not at home.
Take your kids to the doctor 1-2 times a month and be involved in their lives and on meds or not they will probably not turn out like that kid. I know mine won't. I love my "Student of the Month"!!!
Sorry this is a touchy subject for me.
lorilu
Posted by lorilu on March 29, 2005, at 8:48:09
In reply to Re: the press does it again » cubbybear, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 21:24:00
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.