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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by francesco on December 26, 2004, at 19:06:25
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 13:34:27
I obsessed myself a lot with the possibility that I had got persistent damages from antidepressants. Now I'm taking Anafranil and my obsessions are gone ;-)
This discussion is frightening. I don't wanna hear it ! What's the point in thinking that apathy is dued to antidepressans ? Ok, maybe it's true, maybe it's not, we cannot know it, maybe we're apathetic because our life sucks, maybe because we have failed too often, I think that thinking about meds all day long can have the as consequence that we are unable to see the psychological factors of our problems.
Or maybe this is just what my psychologist says : D
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 19:17:10
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot... » linkadge, posted by francesco on December 26, 2004, at 19:06:25
Hi!
>I think that thinking about meds all day long can have the consequence that we are unable to see the psychological factors of our problems.
I think that this is a very important point.
>What's the point in thinking that apathy is due to antidepressants?
In my case..... because if the apathy IS due to the antidepressant, I need to reduce the dose.
Ed :-)
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 19:30:00
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot... » linkadge, posted by francesco on December 26, 2004, at 19:06:25
Hey Francesco. I understand what you are saying, but I do think that although this discussion is negative, that it is valid. When I was depressed and not on anything, I wasn't apathetic, I was tearful and in pain constantly, or sleeping to escape it. While on just SSRI's I became apathetic and also extremely agitated while still being depressed (although I had energy I was still in a very negative state), which is a bad combination. I had most of the side effects Linkadge described when he/she is off SSRI's while on them and that's why now I'm dx'd BPII. Being on a mood stabilizer and Klonopin, I can sort of handle an SSRI, though I don't like it. Wellbutrin has been the only antidepressant I "like." Even while not on anything else it was the one that I took with the least problem (which is often the case with Bipolars, which is why they are supposed to try Wellbutrin before other AD's). Anyway, my point is that I although I am not doing as good as I have been able to, I am not in the depths of a depression and even when I was doing really well on meds, I still didn't think SSRI's were all they're cracked up to be and the truth is they caused me a lot of problem. I think a fair view of the meds has to include the good and bad. The problems with the SSRI's are valid and that has become more clear now. But, I do apologize if the negativity has been offensive to you (sincerely). And I also think that spending too much time thinking about your disorder and the meds can be a bad thing, like you said.
Meg
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 19:34:35
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 12:48:40
Just out of curiosity, have you tried Wellbutrin? It was the only AD I could really handle. Klonopin really helped me as well. I'm diagnosed BPII though, but my symptoms are pretty much just depression and anxiety. The SSRI's drove me up the wall while not being on anything else, but Wellbutrin was a little better, so I just thought if you haven't tried it, maybe you might want to...maybe add it or try it on its own.
Meg
Posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 19:40:39
In reply to To Francesco, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 19:17:10
I don't want to take a pill to take away the thoughts that I might be dammaging my brain.
It's not really obsession. Its a simple fact that I the *only* problem that I had before I took SSRI's was that I was a little bit blue.
If I discontinue after this time (5 years) I have significantly more problems than I ever even dreamed were possable. They don't go away, they don't subside, they don't lessen.
They don't hesitate to call the benzodiazapines addicting, because they cause withdrawl and a contstant steady dose seems to loose its effect over time. Well guess what, citalopram (for me) causes withdrawl and it has lost its effect over time. I call that addicting.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:04:37
In reply to Re: To Francesco, posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 19:40:39
Hi,
SSRIs are associated with physical dependence- the medical profession seems to be having great difficulty grasping this concept. I think that many doctors just don't want to admit that they were wrong. Also, they don't want to admit to themselves that the drugs that they prescribe on a daily basis cause a significant amount of damage as well as benefit.
As someone on p-babble pointed out not so long ago, the medical profession as a whole suffers from 'splitting' when it comes to drugs, rather than adopting a balanced view of a particular drug's risks and benefits, drugs are viewed as being all 'bad ' or all 'good'.
In the UK....
SSRI in particular are seen as being 'good' drugs.
Benzodiazepines are seen as being 'bad' drugs.
Prozac is praised. Benzos are sneered at. The last time I went to my GP he immediately gave me a repeat prescription for citalopram- no questions asked. My request for a *few* diazepam tablets was laughed at. He said: 'It was wrong of your psychiatrist to prescribe you any diazepam at all'. This is coming from a man who doesn't even know me!
The medical profession is unacceptably slow at accepting the side effects of the drugs that doctors prescribe. When the next 'cure all' turns up, patients' requests for SSRIs may well be sneered at.
Ed.
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 20:22:00
In reply to Re: To Francesco » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:04:37
It would have been "unethical" to prescribe me a benzo when I first asked for one when I was about 14, but I really believe it would have saved me and my life could have gone a much different way. Maybe if I had told them I using alcohol to deal with my anxiety (since 12?). Then again that might have made them more reluctant...ah well. I was scared away from them for a long time, but always had a suspician they might help, and they did.
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:27:32
In reply to Re: To Francesco » ed_uk, posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 20:22:00
>they made me bipolar
Hello,
Have you ever had a manic, hypomanic or mixed episode at a time when you weren't taking any medication?
Ed.
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 20:32:43
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder » MM, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:27:32
Nope, at least not until after I took medication, although you might be able to call what I experienced withdrawl. My "hypomania" presents as intense anxiety, I guess (I'm told). I did have true mixed episodes while on just SSRI's, but I haven't had them since being off of SSRI's (taking them alone).
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:45:56
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder » ed_uk, posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 20:32:43
Hello,
Psychiatrists are not supposed to make a definate diagnosis of bipolar disorder unless a person has had a manic, hypomanic or mixed episode while not taking any medication. The fact that you had a mixed episode while on an SSRI is suggestive of bipolar disorder but it's not sufficient to make the diagnosis in itself.
Ed.
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 21:04:09
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder » MM, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:45:56
Well, technically I can be diagnosed Bipolar III I think, but maybe it was his "working diagnosis" or something, and since I got better with a mood stabilizer it is enough proof for him. I don't know. I and the people who know me are unsure of the Bipolar diagnosis. I did get a second opinion, thinking it would be something else, but he said he wouldn't disagree with the diagnosis, but maybe the way I was being medicated. I'm still wanting to get another opinion, but I'm not under my own insurance so I'm not totally in charge of my care. There's a lot of stalling for different reasons and I'm not always up to fighting to get certain things to happen. Anyway, I know you're right, but I am not sure what I can do about it. Not sure different meds would be good.
Posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 21:19:08
In reply to Re: To Francesco, posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 19:40:39
>. Its a simple fact that I the *only* problem >that I had before I took SSRI's was that I was a >little bit blue.
>
>Same here and it really pisses me off.. my state prior to being on medication was not severe enough to merit medication (I was only 15, so it's not like I had say in the matter) in my opinion... I could have tolerated it without medication and I would have been MUCH better off... now I am stuck with these meds for life.. they have seriously screwed up my life...
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 5:45:13
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot... - Francesco, posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 19:30:00
> Hey Francesco. I understand what you are saying, but I do think that although this discussion is negative, that it is valid.
I think it can be valid too. I have had similar experiences and I thought similar things (permanent damages and so on). My point is that we cannot be *sure* that our apathy is dued to the meds we have taken in the past, and that we cannot be sure it will last forever. Morever I think that this kind of thinking make us more apathetic ! I experienced an awful period of apathy in the last three months or so but two days a week I had to go out of town for my PHD, and guess what, I felt less apathetic than usual.
Unfortunately I spent the other five days daydreaming about how by brain had changed after five different ssris : DBut, I do apologize if the negativity has been offensive to you (sincerely).
No offence, moreover I have written similar posts in the past, my point is not that your argument is not valid but that it's a total waste of time (and mental health too) thinking about the old good days and how our brain chemistry is messed up. It's just something I want to remember for myself ;-)
Francesco
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 6:18:57
In reply to Re: To Francesco, posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 19:40:39
> It's not really obsession. Its a simple fact that I the *only* problem that I had before I took SSRI's was that I was a little bit blue.Linkadge I don't think they are obsessions as 'my mother will die if I don't say 'Jesus Christ' 33 times'. I actually don't think they are *necessarily* false. I think they are 'obsessions' in the sense that that they're unuseful and that they worsen the quality of your life. I had horrible experiences with meds too and I read all Breggin's books. So, I can emphatyze with what you're saying.
My other point is that reading psychobabble, thinking about dopamine and serotonin, prozac and celexa, bring us to commit a 'biologicistical' bias. We are not able to see anymore that our happyness or sadness depends also on how our life goes, how we imagine our future, our relationships and so on. We are just like the freudian psycoanalists who see everywhere inconscious problems, and this doesn't want to mean that the biologic approach to mental illness is *false*. This just want to mean that it's not the whole thing, that our brain chemistry is influenced also by what we think about all day long !!!
Sorry if my english is weird, I have not yet taken my Anafranil pill ;-)
By the way, in Italy benzos are prescribed like candies. But we don't have stimulants : (
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 6:20:43
In reply to Re: To Francesco, posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 21:19:08
Posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 7:42:16
In reply to Re: To Francesco, posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 6:18:57
Hi Francesco!
>My other point is that reading psychobabble, thinking about dopamine and serotonin, prozac and celexa, bring us to commit a 'biologicistical' bias. We are not able to see anymore that our happyness or sadness depends also on how our life goes, how we imagine our future, our relationships and so on. We are just like the freudian psycoanalists who see everywhere inconscious problems, and this doesn't want to mean that the biologic approach to mental illness is *false*. This just want to mean that it's not the whole thing, that our brain chemistry is influenced also by what we think about all day long !!!
I agree with you entirely. Although medications often have an important role, it's important not to forget about the other factors which can affect our mental health.
>Sorry if my english is weird, I have not yet taken my Anafranil pill ;-)
No, your English is very good. I doubt many people on p-babble can write in Italian! Actually, I was meaning to ask you yesterday if you lived in Italy!
> in Italy benzos are prescribed like candies. But we don't have stimulants : (
Are they still prescribed like candy? Which benzos are the most popular? How popular is bromazepam (Lexotan/Compendium)?
A least you've got Provigil! It's strange how stimulants are unavailable in many countries yet they are widely prescribed in the US. In the UK, prescribing stimulants to adults is somewhat taboo.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 8:37:22
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco, posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 7:42:16
Hi!
Is this basically just saying that the stimulant Ritalin hasn't been available in Italy since 1989 and that it's classified as a schedule 1 narcotic? Does it say something about Ritalin possibly being made available in Italy in the future?
METILFENIDATO (RITALIN)
Il metilfenidato (Ritalin) trova indicazione nei bambini con disturbi
dell’attenzione con o senza iperattività (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity
Disorder, ADHD). Anche se in merito esistono pareri non sempre
concordanti, le prove cliniche di efficacia sono sufficienti a considerare il
metilfenidato tra i farmaci di scelta nel trattamento dello ADHD.
Il metilfenidato è uno stimolante centrale: come tale appartiene ai
farmaci d’abuso ed è incluso nella Tabella I degli stupefacenti. La sua
commercializzazione venne sospesa in Italia nel 1989, su iniziativa
dell’azienda che allora lo produceva.
Visto il ruolo del metilfenidato nel trattamento dello ADHD, l’elevata
incidenza di questa manifestazione in età pre-adolescenziale e l’assenza
dal mercato nazionale di farmaci alternativi, la Commissione Unica del
Farmaco e il Dipartimento del Farmaco del Ministero della Sanità, in un
incontro, hanno invitato NOVARTIS, attuale titolare del Ritalin, a
presentare richiesta per la registrazione del farmaco e la sua
commercializzazione in Italia.
In data 18/10/2000 la Novartis ha comunicato al Dipartimento
Valutazione Medicinali e Farmacovigilanza la disponibilità per una rapida
registrazione e commercializzazione del farmaco.
Posted by linkadge on December 27, 2004, at 9:52:31
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco, posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 8:37:22
I agree that it is foolish to obsess about something that:
A) You cannot change
B) Nothing can be gained from
C) Has no bearing on your life.However, this does not meet those criteria. If this medication is infact dammaging my brain. The *last* thing I need to do is not be concerned about it. The last thing I need to do is take more pills and hope it will go away. There is mounting evidence that the SSRI's might be causeing long term dammage to how the brain functions. I need to know about this so I can perhaps salvage what little I have left. This is not foolish.
Linkadge
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 14:51:13
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco, posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 7:42:16
> Are they still prescribed like candy? Which benzos are the most popular? How popular is bromazepam (Lexotan/Compendium)?Many people here use benzos even those who are not 'mentally ill' and have never been to a psychiatrist (and don't even know what kind of job a psychiatrist does, like my granma). Most of non psychiatric patients use them to sleep rather than for anxiety and they are widely prescribed also by 'normal' doctors (I mean, those who are not psychiatrists). As a consequence you can find a xanax tablet in almost every house just next to the aspirin : D
On the other side psychiatrists tend to prefer other meds like ssri for chronic conditions like anxiety but the normal schedule is having a benzo prescribed *with* an antidepressant.
I agree with you that SSRIs, and antidepressants in general, are far more dangerous than benzos. I got crazy so many times with SSRIs, and experienced horrible withdrawals and sensations, while the most horrible thing that can occur when you take a benzo is getting a little sleepy. I don't want to mean that addiction doesn't exist but I think that it regards a very low percentage of benzo users while on the other side so many people have troubles with SSRIs. Ok, sorry for wandering.
I don't know which benzos are the most popular. I think serpax, xanax, lexotan and many others. I think that rivotril (clonazapam) isn't very popular here, I have never heard of anyone taking it.
> A least you've got Provigil! It's strange how stimulants are unavailable in many countries yet they are widely prescribed in the US. In the UK, prescribing stimulants to adults is somewhat taboo.
It's the same here. I managed to have ritalin prescribed but it was not easy, and moreover, it was not helpful for my adhd-like problems. Yes, we have provigil, but I don't think psychiatrists here use it very often. My current psychiatrist had never heard about it before I mentioned it ! All these differences from country to country show how psychiatry can be ridicolous sometimes : /
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 14:53:13
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco, posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 8:37:22
The ritalin situation here is bizarre. Yes, we don’t have ritalin on the market, because Novartis decided in 1989 not to sell it anymore in Italy (very long story: basically the profits of MF are very low while the opposition toward it was very strong). Of course adhd children didn’t stop being adhd in 1989 and this produced a weird situation. You have to go to a doctor specialized in adhd that import somehow Ritalin from Switzerland. But here adhd is not very well known, even by most psychiaytrists, so if you’re an adult your chances to know that you may have adhd and having stimulants prescribed can be very very low.
The things are changing I think, Ritalin should be very soon on the market again but for having it prescribed you have to follow a very complex schedule, giving your name and so on, and I’m just talking about children ! Anyway I hope that this will contribute to make more people aware of the existence of this disturb even if the debate's level is usually not more higher that this: “They want to drug our children, adhd is just another american thing like macdonald’s ;-)”.
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 14:58:12
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco, posted by linkadge on December 27, 2004, at 9:52:31
> I agree that it is foolish to obsess about something that:
>
> A) You cannot change
> B) Nothing can be gained from
> C) Has no bearing on your life.
>
> However, this does not meet those criteria. If this medication is infact dammaging my brain. The *last* thing I need to do is not be concerned about it. The last thing I need to do is take more pills and hope it will go away. There is mounting evidence that the SSRI's might be causeing long term dammage to how the brain functions. I need to know about this so I can perhaps salvage what little I have left. This is not foolish.
>
>
> LinkadgeLinkadge, of course it’s not foolish if you decide as a consequence that you won't take SSRIs anymore or you plan to sue your p-doc or Lilly. I was talking about two other cases:
a) you have decided not to take meds anymore and you go on thinking about the damages that meds may have caused to your brain. This make your brain more prone to depression. And, believe me, I have been there!
b) You decided to go on in taking meds. Of course this is like smoking and thinking about how dangerous smoking is, I mean, it’s completely human, but, what’s the use ?
I didn’t want to suggest that your arguments cannot be valid, actually I think they may be, I just think that since we have no evidence, and I mean, no certitude, it’s not rational to terrorize ourselves with these thoughts. Even if we were certain about ‘permanent damages’, and we’re not and we’ll never be, it wouldn’t be wise in my opinion to think again and again about how easier our life would have eventually been without meds, because, moreover, we don’t know it.
That was my point, and if you’re right or wrong in thinking that meds may have damaged you it’s a different issue, and I have nothing to say about it. I have read many Breggin’s books that support your views and maybe you could find them interesting. How long have you been without taking meds ?
Posted by linkadge on December 27, 2004, at 16:54:29
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco » linkadge, posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 14:58:12
I've been taking SSRI's for 5 years now.
I think there actually is evidence that SSRI's can cause long term dammage and complications but we choose to ignore it. Permanent dyskinsia's are some of the simplest and accepted permanet side effects.
If you take a medication that causes a dyskinsia for years after the med is removed then this is brain dammage plain and simple.
SSRI's can also lower the seizure threshold, this is a well known fact. Kindling, and subseizure epileptifom activity can cause excitotoxicy.
I'm not saying everyone will suffer these side effects but we need to know they exist to make a informed decision about the fate of our future mental health.
Like I said previously, statistically depression *very rarely* lasts longer than 8-12 months, yet I've been taking these meds for 5 years now with a worsening prognosis each year. Long term medication is also increasingly common.
Its just like ECT. We didn't think it caused long term brain dammage simply because we did not have the tools to detect it at the time.
It is accepted now that ECT often does cause irreversable brain dammage. It is not a widely publicized fact because we don't want people to panic.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 17:50:59
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco » ed_uk, posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 14:53:13
Hi Francesco!
The strange think about the UK is that child psychiatrists seem quite happy to prescribe stimulants to children but most adult psychiatrists refuse to even consider prescribing stimulants to adults.
Ed.
Posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 19:25:00
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco, posted by linkadge on December 27, 2004, at 16:54:29
I don't want to panic too and I don't want others to panic. I agree with you that it's not wise to give antidepressants for depression, which is not a cronic condition. My situation is different since I have adhd-like syntoms, that don't subside over the time like depression usually does. I think also that you're right in saying that most people don't know anything about the risks involved in taking antidepressants and that they have the right to be informed to be able to choice. I'm going to write a phd dissertation on this subject, and I do emphatize with your views.
My life too has been complicated, to use an euphemism, by antidepressants and I would have liked to have been informed about risks and side-effects when I first took them at the age of 19.
What I was actually asking was how long you have been *without* taking antidepressants and how you can be sure that the effects you describe are permanent.Regards,
Francesco
> I've been taking SSRI's for 5 years now.
>
> I think there actually is evidence that SSRI's can cause long term dammage and complications but we choose to ignore it. Permanent dyskinsia's are some of the simplest and accepted permanet side effects.
>
> If you take a medication that causes a dyskinsia for years after the med is removed then this is brain dammage plain and simple.
>
> SSRI's can also lower the seizure threshold, this is a well known fact. Kindling, and subseizure epileptifom activity can cause excitotoxicy.
>
> I'm not saying everyone will suffer these side effects but we need to know they exist to make a informed decision about the fate of our future mental health.
>
> Like I said previously, statistically depression *very rarely* lasts longer than 8-12 months, yet I've been taking these meds for 5 years now with a worsening prognosis each year. Long term medication is also increasingly common.
>
> Its just like ECT. We didn't think it caused long term brain dammage simply because we did not have the tools to detect it at the time.
>
> It is accepted now that ECT often does cause irreversable brain dammage. It is not a widely publicized fact because we don't want people to panic.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
Posted by ed_uk on December 27, 2004, at 20:10:38
In reply to Re: A little message to Francesco » linkadge, posted by francesco on December 27, 2004, at 19:25:00
>My life too has been complicated, to use an euphemism, by antidepressants and I would have liked to have been informed about risks and side-effects when I first took them at the age of 19.
BTW, How old are you now? I am curious!
Ed.
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