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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by utopizen on February 19, 2004, at 5:29:39
In reply to Re: Dysphoria- it's your environment, not you » utopizen, posted by jerrympls on February 18, 2004, at 19:02:48
> WOW-- that was powerful and very insightful. I realize that happiness won't come from a pill...i think. Most of hwat you said above is very true...it's just hard and frustrating...to keep up this battle for years upon years - you know?
>Of course it's a battle, and it's a battle that you've been trying to fight for years. But step back for a second. Are you a one man army? Who's on your side? Who's against you? What happens the day you decide to stop fighting, winning, or losing? What happens that day, is that you will, when it comes to you, realize there never was a battle around you, but within you. It was within your mind. You're telling yourself you need something to get done, like happiness, that needs to get done today, and if it doesn't, you'll never get it.
>If you worry for yourself, you will have burdens. If you worry for others, you will have challenges. It's up to you whether you want to battle yourself into an oblivion or use your talent to protect others who need you through their challenges, and life them up from their burderns. And the more you do this, life's heaviest burden-- loneliness- will lift away from yourself. It's loneliness that makes one feel they are fighting a battle, because they feel as though they're a one many army. But who are you fighting? Who are your friends? Have you found others you may surround yourself with that, instantly upon entering their presence, all of your anxities vanish from your mind and you feel at peace?
It's harder to continue battles while your friends surround you from both sides, now isn't it? Is it really your NE antagonist that needs potentiation? The most obvious things need to be looked at as though you were 16 again. Would you, at 16, do what you do now? Associate with who you associate now? Are you feeling down because your biochemistry got mixed up, or did your environment change since you were 16? Have you lost a grasp for what your true passions once were?
These are all things you need to ask yourself, and CBT is helpful for it... or, my favorite, The Feel Good Handbook. Although this drivel that I write, it's just rants... based on the principle that it's your environment that feeds you, food, neurochemicals, social relationships, and so on. The net sum of all these affect you as you are today, and knowing this is the most important thing you can ever realize.
Posted by PsychoSage on February 19, 2004, at 10:31:13
In reply to Re: Dysphoria- it's your environment, not you » utopizen, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 18, 2004, at 20:52:56
> I cannot recall the last time I heard a more impassioned articulation of the ethos of a healthy attitude toward drug use. An extremely high (in the spiritual sense) psychologist I had told it all to me this way: "Which model makes more sense in examining your life: neurotransmitters, or feelings and reasons?" I am not sure that I'll ever know how a philosophy major like myself ever got into drug abuse, for I am acutely aware of the mind-body problem and the absurdity of hard materialism. Oh, wait, I wanted to run away from myself ... so what did it matter what I knew then, you dig?
>
> I used to be so well-written and well-spoken. I wrote 20-page papers in 400-level philosophy classes as a sophomore! I was nominated for philosophy undergrad of the year but got disqualified because I was too young! My psychopharm. professor wanted to get me on the "fast track" to John's Hopkins! Man, I'm all about drugs now, but I used to GET OFF ON CONSCIOUSNESS ALONE! Psychopharmacology is fantastic, but only if one doesn't ignore the PSYCHE part!
>
> I now feel that I let this precious flame at best atrophy through excessive drug use and self-isolation, and at worst lost it forever through neurotoxic experiments with psychostimulants. My only consolation is knowing that I could someday better the lives of others through my own mistakes.
>
> And who knows, when I dive back into school, I might find that fleeting rapture again ...
>
> To the one seeking euphoria: using drugs to ENHANCE your life is healthy. Using them to FILL your life will create hell. Be thankful you cannot recapture that euphoria; it's your soul telling you that you're on a better path. Seek euthymia, not euphoria.
What's euthymia? I am interested in hearing more about you, utopzian. It sounds like our stories our quite similar. Without obnoxiously repeating myself, i have posted the ghist of my story on here in some places. I'm always obsessed with my mind and thinking. I am not implying you do, but you sound like you have an acute awareness about philosophical issues regarding the mind and being. I abused psychostimulants {mostly illicit} at university, and it screwed me over.
Posted by PsychoSage on February 19, 2004, at 22:50:21
In reply to Re: Dysphoria- it's your environment, not you » Chairman_MAO, posted by PsychoSage on February 19, 2004, at 10:31:13
Are you bipolar, utopzian?
>
> What's euthymia? I am interested in hearing more about you, utopzian. It sounds like our stories our quite similar. Without obnoxiously repeating myself, i have posted the ghist of my story on here in some places. I'm always obsessed with my mind and thinking. I am not implying you do, but you sound like you have an acute awareness about philosophical issues regarding the mind and being. I abused psychostimulants {mostly illicit} at university, and it screwed me over.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2004, at 7:46:58
In reply to Re: Dysphoria- it's your environment, not you » Chairman_MAO, posted by PsychoSage on February 19, 2004, at 10:31:13
euthymia
1. Joyfulness; mental peace and tranquility.
2. Moderation of mood, not manic or depressed.
Origin: eu-+ G. Thymos, mind
Posted by Karen Moore on February 20, 2004, at 23:36:41
In reply to Re: euthymia, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2004, at 7:46:58
And what if one has been bouncing back and forth between both poles for so long that you no longer "know" what euthymia -really- is?!
I'm not trying to be facetious, I recently asked my pdoc this one. Because when I last returned to "euthymia" I was told the rapture that I felt when I returned to my art work was natural, normal for one who had lived in depression for so long. A month later my pdoc told me: "if you owned a gun I'd have you committed." -evidently manic. So was that rapture euthymia or hypomania?
For some of us euthymia seems more like Purgatory...> euthymia
>
> 1. Joyfulness; mental peace and tranquility.
>
> 2. Moderation of mood, not manic or depressed.
>
> Origin: eu-+ G. Thymos, mind
Posted by utopizen on February 22, 2004, at 17:49:11
In reply to Utopzian, posted by PsychoSage on February 19, 2004, at 22:50:21
> Are you bipolar, utopzian?
>
> >I don't even know anymore. =)
I've always been a happy kid. I'm 20 now, and well, lately been a bit down for a few months, but I can get happy, I just need a girlfriend and the spring weather and some exercise in a month on my Cannondale. It doesn't take much ot make me happy.
I've got ADD, so I took Adderall... um... my doc suggested I had bipolar, possibly, at the end of one session... because I mentioned I get anxious on it, and he said most people feel calm. (And how on earth do people get better handwriting on an amphetamine, by the way?) But he forgot he mentioned this and we never brought it up again.
I don't think so. Just lots and lots of ADD. I've had a neuropsychological evaluation. If I'm having a bad day, I try to look in the mirror a lot. Total evidence that ego and social anxiety disorder are unrelated, because I'm excessively egotistical. I don't talk to myself in the mirror, I just look at myself. =)
Posted by ed_uk on December 13, 2004, at 10:24:30
In reply to Re: Dysphoria- it's your environment, not you » utopizen, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 18, 2004, at 20:52:56
Hi,
Have you read utopizen's insightful post near the start of this thread?
Drugs are not the only route to recovery.........................
He has an important point to make because too often people with mental health problems view their medication as the most important factor in their recovery, or perhaps even the only route to recovery.
After many years of taking ADs I am still unsure whether I have really been helped by them. Yes, I have improved... but I might have done better without them, I might have improved anyway. Getting older, exposing myself to my fears and trying to keep busy have probably helped me more than anything.
When I was depressed I viewed ADs as the only solution.... but when I look back, I improved only a little when I found an effective AD. What really helped me to get back on track was forcing myself to go back to college. When you have isolated yourself from your friends and family no quantity of ADs will make you happy.... going to work, forcing yourself to get up in the morning and finding new friends (or meeting up with old friends) may do you a lot more good than the latest 'combo'.
................................................................................................................................................
To those interested in 'cosmetic psychopharmacology'........
Remember, a never-ending state of drug-induced euphoria is not possible, nor is it healthy. The world would not work if we were happy all the time. The idea behind the 'Good Drug Guide' is a fantasy. As they say, what goes up must come down :-(
As Chairman_MAO said... 'To the one seeking euphoria: using drugs to ENHANCE your life is healthy. Using them to FILL your life will create hell.'
Ed.
Posted by linkadge on December 13, 2004, at 16:46:31
In reply to Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by ed_uk on December 13, 2004, at 10:24:30
Yeah, well,
I first went on AD's and I got better. I thought that I had done all the work and that I was responsable for getting myself better.
So then I went of the drugs, and crashed worse than I ever have in my life. I have never got better since then.
It's theraputic to thinkt hat you are responsable for your recovery. But (for me anyway) this is not true.
Linkadge
Posted by jerrympls on December 13, 2004, at 17:12:21
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by linkadge on December 13, 2004, at 16:46:31
> Yeah, well,
>
> I first went on AD's and I got better. I thought that I had done all the work and that I was responsable for getting myself better.
>
> So then I went of the drugs, and crashed worse than I ever have in my life. I have never got better since then.
>
> It's theraputic to thinkt hat you are responsable for your recovery. But (for me anyway) this is not true.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Link and I have the same story. I don't think you'd tell a diabetic not to rely on medication. I think that most - if not all on the board are close to being treatment-resistant and are looking for something that will allow them to get on with their lives. I would love to get on with my life rather than chase psychopharmocology - but it's a must since we live in a time where doctors shy away from those who need strong polypharmacy. I doubt if anyone here wants to feel good all time time -but there's a difference. We all strive to become depression-free so when we do experience a "normal" high in life the rebound from that doesn't result in total despair and darkness.I applaud any and all who seek to further their knowledge about medication because our doctors who can barely get us in for 15 mins. each month certainly don't have the time to do the research we do. And if in doing that research it keeps us going, then so be it.
No one here denies that therapy along with medication is the best combination. But to tell someone to stop searching for a medication that might make her or she feel "good" is the wrong approach in my mind. I think if you gave everyone here the choice of artificial contentment and genuine contentment - my guess is 100% would go for the genuine every time.
God bless all of us researchers...
Jerry
Posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 7:49:38
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs? » linkadge, posted by jerrympls on December 13, 2004, at 17:12:21
>I don't think you'd tell a diabetic not to rely on medication.
Hi Jerry,
I'm not sure whether this comment was directed at me.... If it was you have misunderstood my post. If a person requires medication to maintain euthymia I would be very much in favour of them taking it. My post asked... 'Do you have a healthy attitude to drug use?' It seems that you do :-)
>We all strive to become depression-free so when we do experience a "normal" high in life the rebound from that doesn't result in total despair and darkness.When I mentioned euphoria I was refering only to the fleeting euphoria produced by abusing a drug. I was not talking about the 'normal' highs of life or the stability which might be achieved via the use of appropriate medication.... Drug induced euphoria is often followed by unpleasant things.
>But to tell someone to stop searching for a medication that might make her or she feel "good" is the wrong approach in my mind.
I applaud anyone who attempts to search for better treatment. My post was intended to draw attention to the role of non-medical factors in a person's recovery and to warn of the risks of assuming that medication is the only route to health. For some people, although by no means all, non-medical factors may play a greater role in their recovery than medication. Some people need their medication to function, but this does not apply to everyone.
Best Wishes,
Ed.
Posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 13:23:11
In reply to Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by ed_uk on December 13, 2004, at 10:24:30
I do not exist in a drug induced state of euphoria, just what most people would consider normal, and if that is cosmetic psychopharmacology so be it.
I have no doubt the medications are mainly responsible as oodles and oodles of therapy and alternatives failed miserably and I am a trained therapist!
I find your dismissal offensive.Glenn
Posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 13:41:06
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 13:23:11
Clearly, you did not understand my post.
I am in no way dismissing medication. I benefit from it myself and some people need it.
'Cosmetic psychopharmacology' refers to the use of drugs to promote a supra-normal state. Using medication to maintain euthymia is not cosmetic psychopharmacology
Posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 13:58:09
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs? » glenn, posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 13:41:06
Posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 14:01:17
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs? (nm), posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 13:58:09
I think so.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 14:43:51
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs? » glenn, posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 14:01:17
It upsets me when people misinterpret my posts.
Sometimes I wish I could delete posts when people keep replying when they haven't understood what I was saying. So often people reply without understanding the context because they haven't read the whole thread. Someone on the Newbies board recently said that they were afraid of posting because of the way that people respond, I can understand that.
My post was intended to draw attention to the dangers of feeling that medication is the only solution. For some people it clearly is but for many people it is not. Feeling that pills are the only route to recovery can create a sense of helpnessness, I have felt this way myself many times. I would never dismiss the importance of medication for some people.
When I wrote about cosmetic psychopharmacology I was refering to the post by Chairman_MAO. I was not talking about the treatment of mental illness at that point.
Please... if you are going to reply, please read the whole thread.
Ed.
Posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 17:35:45
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 14:43:51
I can assure you that I have read all of your messages and understood them.
I hear you are upset but do you actually hear others??
It seems to me that you are seeking to attribute the upset you sometimes cause to other people, onto those others by saying they do not read or understand your posts properly, which in itself is hardly flattering.
My understanding of cosmetic psychopharmacology is obviously different from yours.
I go by Peter Kramers idea that it is the use of medication to alleviate those aspects of personality which by themselves would not fit into any diagnostic manual but can nonetheless destroy someones ability to enjoy life.
Nothing to do with a drug induced euphoria, nor an attempt to say drugs are the only answer.
As it happens they have provided an incredible base for me like nothing else, but meditation , cbt,exercise, tai chi and lingos methods do the rest.Glenn
Posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 6:19:15
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 17:35:45
>It seems to me that you are seeking to attribute the upset you sometimes cause to other people.
I do not believe that my posts generally upset other people.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 7:25:58
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by glenn on December 14, 2004, at 17:35:45
Hello Glenn,
>It seems to me that you are seeking to attribute the upset you sometimes cause to other people, onto those others by saying they do not read or understand your posts properly, which in itself is hardly flattering.
I am glad you read all my posts, I am sorry for suggesting that you didn't. Please understand that on several occasions people have responded to my posts without reading them properly. In some cases, they have later apologised for misinterpreting what I wrote.
>the upset you sometimes cause to other people
I thought that this was a cruel thing to say. I do not believe that my posts generally upset people. In fact, I think that I have been able to help some of the people who use psycho-babble. I sometimes post on controversial issues which may cause emotional responses. Psycho-babble wouldn't be the same if controversial issues were never discussed.
>I can assure you that I have read all of your messages and understood them.
I hear you are upset but do you actually hear others??If you have read all my posts you will understand that I am not 'anti-medication' in the slighest. In fact, I used to want to be a psychopharmacologist. My initial post was not intended to dismiss the importance of medication. I discussed my own experience with medication as is the norm on psycho-babble.
>I go by Peter Kramers idea that it is the use of medication to alleviate those aspects of personality which by themselves would not fit into any diagnostic manual but can nonetheless destroy someones ability to enjoy life.
It seems that your misinterpretation of my posts resulted partly from you using a different definition of cosmetic psychopharmacology to me. I would not consider the use of a drug to treat of problem which was destroying someone's life to be a cosmetic use of that substance. I tend to think of cosmetic pharmacology as the use of drugs to enhance the life of someone who is not suffering from any serious problems.
>As it happens they have provided an incredible base for me like nothing else, but meditation , cbt,exercise, tai chi and lingos methods do the rest.
As I noted earlier, medication can be helful for many people with mental health problems. Unfortunately, it is never possible to be absolutely sure whether you are actually benefiting from them. You can be quite sure but never completely sure.
Strangely, I don't think that we actually disagree on anything :-)
Ed.
Posted by glenn on December 15, 2004, at 16:55:23
In reply to Re: To Glenn, posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 7:25:58
Fair enough Ed , I am sure you do not mean to upset anyone, it just happens sometimes!
I still feel that some aspects of personality would be hard to fit under any definition of illness, ie over concern for others feelings, excessive giult and rumination.
Also having tried lots of therapy of the cbt and psychodynamic genres and many herbs ,techniques and Englands supposedly greatest healer I am pretty sure the xanax resets my body and brain like nothing else and the citalopram for example stop blushing ( I can actually feel it halting the process early on)
I do find your posts to be generally very interesting, keep up the good work!Glenn
Posted by jerrympls on December 15, 2004, at 19:01:16
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs? » jerrympls, posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 7:49:38
> >I don't think you'd tell a diabetic not to rely on medication.
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> I'm not sure whether this comment was directed at me.... If it was you have misunderstood my post. If a person requires medication to maintain euthymia I would be very much in favour of them taking it. My post asked... 'Do you have a healthy attitude to drug use?' It seems that you do :-)
>
>
> >We all strive to become depression-free so when we do experience a "normal" high in life the rebound from that doesn't result in total despair and darkness.
>
> When I mentioned euphoria I was refering only to the fleeting euphoria produced by abusing a drug. I was not talking about the 'normal' highs of life or the stability which might be achieved via the use of appropriate medication.... Drug induced euphoria is often followed by unpleasant things.
>
> >But to tell someone to stop searching for a medication that might make her or she feel "good" is the wrong approach in my mind.
>
> I applaud anyone who attempts to search for better treatment. My post was intended to draw attention to the role of non-medical factors in a person's recovery and to warn of the risks of assuming that medication is the only route to health. For some people, although by no means all, non-medical factors may play a greater role in their recovery than medication. Some people need their medication to function, but this does not apply to everyone.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Ed.Hi ed-
sorry if I came off rude - I think I may have just misread your post. It's been a weird time for me lately.
Jerry
Posted by jerrympls on December 15, 2004, at 19:05:56
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 6:19:15
> >It seems to me that you are seeking to attribute the upset you sometimes cause to other people.
>
> I do not believe that my posts generally upset other people.
>
> Ed.Ed's posts don't upset me. He's a very knowledgeable guy and a very supportive one at that. Keep on posting Ed.
Jerry
Posted by passionsky on December 16, 2004, at 2:22:11
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs? » linkadge, posted by jerrympls on December 13, 2004, at 17:12:21
Hello, I'm new to the board but I have some questions. When I had my son I went into deep post-partum depression. At that time I was completely against medications. I was suicidal and extremely angry and clinically depressed. My fammily was very worried and called my doc adn I was resistent but started taking amitryptaline. It worked well but many side effects. Since then I have been on Prozac, (for seven years) Celexa and now Zoloft and 500 mgs of Depakote. I don't know if I am bi-polar (setting an appt with pdoc soon) but intense anger with depresstion adn the depakote is helping. I go to therapy 2x's a week. (I had an emotional breakdown in Oct)My mother attempted suicide about 4 times when I was growing up and yes I have had a lot of trauma (abuse).
Anyway my question is whats up with so many people on meds and I feel weak that I have to be on them. (Just a week ago I was contmeplating suicide myself.) I have attempted once. I feel better on ssri's but I feel weak. I know I have a lot to work on, trust issues, feeling oppressed etc. What did people before that were going through what I am going through? Does anybody know the percentage of Americans on meds? I believe because of the abuse I have been through in life my brain chemistry is abnormal but what did people do before all the meds, just deal with it, kill themselves, be miserable or what. I have discussed this with the therapist and she says its ok to feel good (I'm usually depressed or angry) and that yes I have a lot of work to do and the meds are there to help me through it. But I feel weak. Any comments, info would be appreciated.
Jennifer
Posted by ed_uk on December 16, 2004, at 5:51:02
In reply to Re: To Glenn, posted by glenn on December 15, 2004, at 16:55:23
>I still feel that some aspects of personality would be hard to fit under any definition of illness, ie over concern for others feelings, excessive giult and rumination.
Hi Glenn,
If such symptoms were causing a serious problem it could be very therapeutic to treat them with medication. If such symptoms were very mild (eg. slight overconcern for others feelings) then treating them with medication could be seen as 'cosmetic'. I think that this would apply to all psychiatric symptoms, whether they are part of a recognised diagnosis or not.
Regards,
Ed.PS. I also take citalopram.
Posted by ed_uk on December 16, 2004, at 6:05:56
In reply to Re: Do you have a healthy attitude to drugs?, posted by passionsky on December 16, 2004, at 2:22:11
Hello Jennifer,
If your medication is helping you to feel better, please continue taking it. It isn't weak to be on medication, many people need medication to help them cope, you are not alone. For some people, therapy alone can be sufficient but this certainly doesn't apply to everybody.
I think that you should try to view your medication as a positive thing. If it helps you to feel better then it is a good thing. After all that you have been through you deserve to feel good. Now that medication is available for us to use we might as well benefit from it :-) ........Drugs have been used to ease emotional suffering for many centuries... alcohol, opium, cannabis etc. Today, we have many more medications.
Best Wishes,
Ed.
Posted by glenn on December 16, 2004, at 17:51:08
In reply to Re: To Glenn, posted by ed_uk on December 16, 2004, at 5:51:02
Hi Ed,
The problem is that it is not oneself who can make these distinctions , it has to be someone with the power to prescribe and if they either cannot fit ones issues into a convenient diagnostic box, or answer with "well everyone feels like that sometimes" or a similar platitude where does that leave one?
How do you find the citalopram?
I don't find it much of an anxiolytic, but as a personality modifier for me it is great, although it does not seem to do that for most people.
Did I read somewhere you were still looking for an anxiolytic , or was that someone else?Glenn
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