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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by lostforwards on November 28, 2004, at 20:31:41
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by mmcconathy on November 28, 2004, at 19:35:13
No-Doz? Ha! that's a nifty name for caffeine pills.
Posted by Willyee on November 28, 2004, at 20:35:46
In reply to is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 18:55:13
> Does coffee fit the category of antidepressant? Ie would it pass the tests used to screen for antidepressant potential of other drugs ??
>
>
> LinkadgeMost believe it is.I posted earlier about a book called smart drugs&nutrients,in this book they discuss coffe.
If you do a google search on caffine and dopamine,youll get a lot of info on how it interacts,i read some articles stating caffiene is actualy nuero-protective and can prevent parkinsins disease since it has a postive effect on dopamine.
As for the coffee itself,coffe grind contains sedative like qulaities similiar to those of opiods,so i guess the sedative/stimulative properties of both is why it helps calm certain people,and lift mood and energy.
Compare coffee,with both stimulative and sedative properties too that of a pure stimulant like moutain dew,and youll see a very different effect.
And then of course you have some who cant tolerate caffiene at all,and it drives them crazy,not to mention there are cases where people actualy have a caffiene alllergy,and upon cessation of caffiene,they got much better,its all trial and error i guess.
Posted by zeugma on November 28, 2004, at 21:25:46
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by Willyee on November 28, 2004, at 20:35:46
If you consider a drug that has been proven to lower suicide rates among its consumers an antidepressant, then yes, coffee is an antidepressant.
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 9:09:33
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by zeugma on November 28, 2004, at 21:25:46
I read that article. Seeing as how coffee was found to lower suicide rates, and yet antidepressants havn't been conclusivly shown to lower suicide rates.
Interesting.
And we think we're so advanced. Heh!!
Linkadge
Posted by crazychickuk on November 29, 2004, at 9:39:15
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by mmcconathy on November 28, 2004, at 19:35:13
Links
I seen the physciatrist today he came to my mums house where i been staying, he told me that meds arnt for me and to try and do step by step etc i will be seeing him ever 2 weeks, we duscussed coffee and sweets for depression, i am going to try this.. I need a break from reading posts and thinking to much into things etc ..
I wish you the best
I wish everyone the best..
take care guys..i will pop bk in a few weeks to say hi etc ....
((hugs))
DONNA
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 11:20:26
In reply to -- having a break for a while.... xxxxxx-LINKS, posted by crazychickuk on November 29, 2004, at 9:39:15
Do whats best for you !!!
I see a new psychiatrist in about 2 months.
I'm not sur what ot say to him.Linkadge
Posted by Bill LL on November 29, 2004, at 12:50:44
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 9:09:33
Years ago, caffeine was actually prescribed by docs for depression.
I take a 200 mg caffeine (NoDoz) each morning along with Lexapro and Strattera. It gives me a lift. I don't like the taste of coffee.
Posted by ed_uk on November 29, 2004, at 13:05:13
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by Bill LL on November 29, 2004, at 12:50:44
When I was in hospital with depression I noticed that too much caffeine would make me more depressed (not more anxious but actually more depressed).
Ed.
Posted by mattsit on November 29, 2004, at 14:05:42
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by ed_uk on November 29, 2004, at 13:05:13
I drink about 4 Red Bulls a day along with my 10 mg of Lexapro at night...I am feeling energetic, happy, and like I can do anything again. I was very low - totally over the edge of reason. Anxious about small and inappropriate things (like how I will be able to retire some day...And Im only 26 so clearly I was worrying about the wrong things)
I dont know.....
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 14:29:54
In reply to Red Bull, posted by mattsit on November 29, 2004, at 14:05:42
This drink contains caffiene.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2004, at 16:33:17
In reply to Re: Red Bull, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 14:29:54
I never heard of caffeine being an antidepressant. It makes me nervous, and is usually baned on a psych ward-at least where I was. Also Crazychicke said her pdoc put her on caffeine and sweets. What do all of you think of this? Did he just not want to put her on meds and have her get nervous and call him? I don't know maybe this is a tx in UK. Phillipa. PS A lot cheaper than meds maybe this is what we all should try.
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 16:54:52
In reply to Caffeine and Sweets for Depression?, posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2004, at 16:33:17
Chocolate contains a substance called PEA, whoose antidepressant properties have been confirmed.
Caffiene has a doctumented anti-suicide effect, and supposedly is active in a rat forced swim test model of depression. (read that somewhere today)
Linkadge
Posted by crazychickuk on November 29, 2004, at 17:35:00
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression?, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 16:54:52
Well he didnt prescribe these for me
think he just cares and wants me to try the non medication aproach as i have had no luck with meds as they al seem to make me worse ...
he told me to stop searching on the net and chat boards etc, just stick to ebay and emails maybe.... and he also said sweets and caffene will give me the energy i need for my body cus at the mo i only drink de caf and eat pasta potatoes etc no sweets nor caffeine ...
he did say if i over do the sweets and cafene then i may come crashing down so to take it step by step ...
im gonna give it all a go ...
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2004, at 18:40:50
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression?, posted by crazychickuk on November 29, 2004, at 17:35:00
If all this is true, then I'm going to eat chocolate, and drink caffeine. Let the drug companies Profits go down! Crazychic, I hope you eat protein and veggies too. Phillipa. And good luck let us know how it works. I almost forgot, does your anxiety come from the idea of taking drugs or are you an anxious person?
Posted by Tom G on November 29, 2004, at 18:55:14
In reply to Caffeine and Sweets for Depression?, posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2004, at 16:33:17
I think the anybody whose doctor says to eat sweets and drink caffeine to help anxiety and depression needs to reach for the Yellow Pages. That is the worst advice I think I've ever heard out of a doctor especially a psychiatrist. All literature that I've read says that caffeine and sweets are anxiety promoting agents and most doctors I've seen say to eliminate them from the diet rather than add. Unbelievable.
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 19:25:30
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression? » Phillipa, posted by Tom G on November 29, 2004, at 18:55:14
For a lot of people caffiene is anxiolitic not anxiogenic.
But I would think that chocolate and caffiene would be more effective for anergic depression than anxious depression.
Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on November 29, 2004, at 19:41:44
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression?, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2004, at 19:25:30
> For a lot of people caffiene is anxiolitic not anxiogenic.
>
> But I would think that chocolate and caffiene would be more effective for anergic depression than anxious depression.
>Chocolate causes a crash that is worse than the crash from ritalin or Provigil, so I avoid it.
Caffeine is anxiolytic, but that is probably because I self medicated for ADD and narcolepsy with it, and was able to worry less about driving into a tree after downing one of those huge 7-11 cups of java.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by Bill LL on November 30, 2004, at 9:37:18
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression? » linkadge, posted by zeugma on November 29, 2004, at 19:41:44
I have copied excerpts from a paper. The entire text is on:
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/CaffeineEffects.htmThe article indicates that lower doses of caffeine can have good effects, but higher doses (more than 200 mg per day) have bad effects.
This article also discusses the swimming test of mice that someone mentioned in the thread.
Orthomolecular Psychiatry, Volume 10, Number 3, 1981, Pp. 202-211
Caffeine: Psychological Effects, Use and Abuse
Sanford Bolton, Ph.D. and Gary Null, M.S.
ABSTRACT
Caffeine, probably the most widely used drug, affects the psychological state of those who consume it. Abuse results in symptoms of caffeinism which include agitation, disorientation and a syndrome which may be mistaken for anxiety/neurosis. It is a habit-forming drug in which tolerance develops. It affects sleep in a dose related manner which is dependent on the daily caffeine intake, i.e., high users have less effect. Its central nervous system stimulation can cause pleasant effects with improved attention and concentration at lower doses. At high doses, the reverse may occur. Used judiciously, it may be a useful therapy in the treatment of hyperkinetic children. These and other effects of caffeine are discussed in this review article.
Caffeine stimulates the central nervous system first at the higher levels, the cortex and medulla, and finally the spinal cord at higher doses. Mild cortex stimulation appears to be beneficial resulting in more clear thinking and less fatigue. Caffeine has been shown to improve attention in a study which simulated night driving (Leinart, 1966). The onset of the effect of caffeine occurs within one hour and lasts for three to four hours (Baker, 1972).
The equivalent of one or two cups of coffee (150 to 250 mg of caffeine) is sufficient to induce adverse effects. The occurrence of hyperesthesia, an unpleasant sensory sensation, can be stimulated by large doses of caffeine.
Stimulation of the CNS is followed by depression (Klein and Salzman, 1975), although the effect is small at low doses e.g. a single cup of coffee. After two hours, Klein reported that males (but not females) showed a lower CNS stimulation compared to placebo. The post stimulation "let down" with caffeine results in fatigue and lethargy and the constant stimulation caused by chronic caffeine dosing could be disastrous (Abrams, 1977; Dowell, 1965).
Caffeine is known to interact with other drugs resulting in a modified effect. For example, caffeine administered with nardil (an MAO inhibitor) caused headaches and high blood pressure (Pakes, 1979). This potentially dangerous interaction was first noted by Berkowitz et al., (1971) and implicated serotonin in the mechanism.
Behavioral Effects: Caffeine's stimulating activity on the central nervous system as well as other body organs results in certain physiological effects which may be considered to be behavior oriented. Caffeine produces more rapid, clearer flow of thought, allays drowsiness and fatigue, increases the capability of a greater sustained intellectual effort and more perfect association of ideas. It also causes a keener appreciation of sensory stimuli, and reaction time is diminished. Motor activity is increased; typists, for example, work faster with fewer errors. Tasks requiring delicate muscular cobrdination and accurate timing may, however, be adversely affected. All of this occurs at doses of 150 to 250 mg of caffeine (approximately two cups of coffee) according to Ritchie (1975).
In 1912, Hollingsworth who was a psychologist reported caffeine's effect on mental and ~notor efficiency in a study sponsored by Coca-Cola. In nine double-blind tests, he found beneficial effects for both mental and motor performance at doses of 65 to 130 mg of caffeine. At a dose of 300 mg, caffeine caused tremors, poor motor performance and insomnia. These results have withstood the test of time (Stephenson, 1977).
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:45:55
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression? » linkadge, posted by zeugma on November 29, 2004, at 19:41:44
Strange. I've never experienced a crash on chocolate but never ask me to take ritalin again for fear of it causing horrable nightime crashing.
Linkadge
Posted by Willyee on November 30, 2004, at 23:01:43
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression? » Phillipa, posted by Tom G on November 29, 2004, at 18:55:14
> I think the anybody whose doctor says to eat sweets and drink caffeine to help anxiety and depression needs to reach for the Yellow Pages. That is the worst advice I think I've ever heard out of a doctor especially a psychiatrist. All literature that I've read says that caffeine and sweets are anxiety promoting agents and most doctors I've seen say to eliminate them from the diet rather than add. Unbelievable.
Whys this so crazy? Their studied and documented effects are ones they play a role on the same exact nuerotransmitters that drugs do,the same neuros that have been believed to control mood,so if its a fact that these chemicals alter the neuros,then why is it crazy?Is it because a docter wont normaly prescribe it,docters prescribe medication,costly medication,rarly do they even recomend diets,nutrients etc,so why would this be any different?
Also if there is any crash from these substances,then again like drugs they are no different.Drugs are not natural so any effect they have will have a reaction when the medication wears off.
I use caffiene daily as a compilment to my AD,it has helped,i commend your docter for thinking outside the box,thinking inside of it is obviously not getting the majority of people well enough fast enough,good luck on your treatment.
Also do some hard searching on dark choclate,pretty amazing info on the chemicals it affects,enphorins yay,i have been using small amounts recently as well and notice a over all improvment in mood.
Posted by Laree on December 1, 2004, at 6:13:23
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by Willyee on November 28, 2004, at 20:35:46
I love this thread, lol...because I LOVE coffee!! I look forward to my daily cup (or 2, or 3...haha). I usually mix it up with decaf so I don't get too jittery (b/c I am on Adderall & Lexapro) -- but for me, it definitely acts as an anti-depressant in some way(s) because to me there is nothing like that first perfect cup in the morning! I can actually get quite irritable if I don't get my daily "fix"! ;)
Posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 7:59:53
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by Laree on December 1, 2004, at 6:13:23
Hi!
I hate coffee! I like coca cola though so I do get my caffeine.
Ed.
Posted by paulbwell on December 1, 2004, at 16:56:40
In reply to Re: is coffee an antidepressant ??, posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 7:59:53
> Hi!
>
> I hate coffee! I like coca cola though so I do get my caffeine.
>
> Ed.Yes around 50mgs of it, and 10! Teaspoons of Sugar in every can of Coke.
It aint called Lolly water for nothing, Ed
Cheers
Posted by zeugma on December 1, 2004, at 18:14:07
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression?, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:45:55
> Strange. I've never experienced a crash on chocolate but never ask me to take ritalin again for fear of it causing horrable nightime crashing.
>
>
> Linkadgechocolate is terrible for IBS. and its crash is compounded by the associated sugar crash.
Ritalin crash is no joke either. Like the strattera crash, the provigil crash, etc. It seems that any drug for ADD comes with this liability. If my ADD and other problems weren't so severe I'd stick to nortriptyline and a little Klonopin.
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 19:04:17
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Sweets for Depression? » linkadge, posted by zeugma on December 1, 2004, at 18:14:07
I experienced my first depression after I stopped using caffiene, chocolate, alcohol and Sudafed. At the risk of making people sick, I would consume at least 10 - 12 cups of coffee, including expresso in a cafe au lait cup, a day, eat chocolate from noon until night, take three doses of non-drowsy Sudafed daily and drink beer and wine. Needless to say, I had a ton of energy, surprisingly had no problems concentrating or focussing and never gained a pound (I guess because the Sudafed was acting as a stimulant along with the coffee). What always surprised me was how well I slept each night (must have been the booze). Anyways, after a few years of this ritual, my anxiety levels went through the roof, so I stopped coffee, chocolate and Sudafed and booze, and came crashing down big time. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. I guess the key would have been moderation.
Tamara
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