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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 12:48:12
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 9:50:22
Thanks for for the info. Tardive dysmentia's a new term for me.
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 13:02:57
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness, posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 12:25:19
Hi Jacj,
It sounds like your symptoms are due to benzodiazepine withdrawal. I think it's very unlikely that any of your symptoms are related to the APs that you took. I think you took Ativan, is that right? Did you taper slowly? How long is it since you last took the benzo?
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 13:17:15
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness » lostforwards, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 9:24:57
That's pretty interesting. Tardive dysmentia? Never heard of that before. The breggin paper lists it as just terminology - that it's no different than tardive dementia. What you've described though seems a lot like what I was getting at.
thanks.
Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 13:28:07
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:31:32
No, usually exclusively antipsychiatry sites don't offer any treatment options. Some people in antipsychiatry are opposed to all treatments, including psychosocial if you can believe it.
There are other treatment options you just have to look to other sources.
Posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 13:53:28
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness.. to JACJ, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 13:02:57
> Hi Jacj,
>
> It sounds like your symptoms are due to benzodiazepine withdrawal. I think it's very unlikely that any of your symptoms are related to the APs that you took. I think you took Ativan, is that right? Did you taper slowly? How long is it since you last took the benzo?
>
> Regards,
> Ed.
Hi Ed,
I did everything wrong when tapering. I tapered 3 mgs of Ativan in a month and then 3 weeks later I tapered 80 mgs of Geodon in 3 weeks. The geodon masked somme of the w/d symptoms. About 2 days later coming off the Geodon my symptoms were full blown. I have been off of Ativan for 8 months now.
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 14:31:56
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness... to Link, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 11:41:56
I agree with the results but not the conclusion of the studies. Lithium is the most neuroprotective substance we have. I'm not sure what the mechanism of this might be but I can only make a proposition.
Perhaps in people who are predisposed to TD might have a irregulation in dopamine/glutamate that when unmedicated it beeing slowly compensated for
by the brain's own mecanisms. When a glutamate stabalizer is introduced, the brains own mechanisms become supressed and the TD surfaces full force.I've read some studies that show lithium can reduce neuroleptic induced alterations in limbic and substantia niagra (sp.) glutamate activity.
A lot of schitsoprenics drink coffee which might ofset some of the neurolecptic induced movement disorders. Caffiene is protective in a mouse model of PD and TD.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 14:33:59
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 13:28:07
It is pathetic that we have to make such steps back like this.
The biggest problem, is that people with schitsophrenia can be paranoid and highly susptitious. When a site like this comes on
and starts refering to these drugs in such terms
we take huge steps back in treatment.
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 14:44:20
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2004, at 11:27:35
I already posted a reply describing some of the dyskinesia and dystonia I had as well as a bunch of weird behaviours and mannerisms.
do you have any idea why I would react to stress with bizzare behaviours like those I've mentioned?
Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 14:45:38
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness, posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 14:44:20
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 14:53:32
In reply to For: Larrry Hoover, or anyone with an explanation (nm), posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 14:45:38
Hi Jacj! :-)
Rapidly tapering from a benzo makes the withdrawal symptoms more intense in the short term (ie. while you are tapering) but doesn't make any difference in the long term. Please don't worry about the way that you tapered.
I understand that you don't want to take any more medication in order to relieve your withdrawal symptoms. Even so, it could be useful to know about some of the options that are available. To give an example, low doses of propranolol (Inderal) can be used to reduce tremor eg. 10mg three times a day. Propranolol is a beta-blocker.
Perhaps psychological treatment could also be helpful. Have you ever seen a psychologist?
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 15:36:51
In reply to Re: For JACJ, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 14:53:32
You'll have to give me a rebrief on some of the symptoms you were having ??
Are you referring to the arm rotation and all that ?
I am not sure exactly. I was taking celexa and zyprexa, and had a very distinctive AP shuffle. Head bouncing up and down and body contorting as I walked.
Anyhow I got off of that slowly and introduced the lithium. I drink lots of coffee now which helps my movement.
I think TD symtpoms hit much harder and sooner if you are sitting infront of the computer all day. I need to take breaks to do movement exercises.
All I can recomend it the right meds, lots of antioxidant rich foods (coffee is loaded with antioxidants) regular exercise, redwine/grapejuice. A heart healthy diet is a brain healthy diet. And of course time and love.
Nothing profound here.
If you need to take an AP, make sure you take the lowest possible effective dose, and ask for some divalproex along with it. (has its own antipsychotic properties and may prevent TD)
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 16:43:01
In reply to Re: For JACJ, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 15:36:51
I assume your post was for me. Thanks. Is coffee really okay to take if you've got possible symptoms of TD? I'd love a nice cup of tea.
There are only a few symptoms that really concern me and don't really seem to fit TD. Initially I was convinced I had tardive dementia symptoms.
Here's a complete list:
- leaning to one side or the other
- spinning things in even mildly stressful situations
- difficulty with eye contact
- tapping my feet, alternating from left to right.
- placing my left arm over my right arm in mildly stressful situations( never did it before ).*these were transient. they appeared as I started the AP, and eventually at the 3mg dose they weren't there ( but they weren't there before I started too ) as I came down they came back for a short period then went away.
Since they appeared as soon as the antipsychotic was given to me while I was under stress...do you think it was TD? The last time I was on APs I was no where near as stressed as I was this time. I can make guesses as to what they are symptoms of, but I'd rather have a "professional" or more-knowledgable-than-me opinion. My doctors have kept very quiet about this stuff even though I did these strange things right in front of them. I know for a fact they are not symptoms of bipolar disorder. Do I have a nerological problem?
What I'll list here are the more TD like problems:
transient while on meds:
- left knee gave way while using the bathroom.
- stereotypies.The other stuff ( present ):
- the arm rotation is now replaced by the feeling that my head feels like staying turned to the right sometimes.
- my left arm doesn't swing
- weakness in my left knee
- my right eyebrow twitches sometimes and is arched in the morning.
- twitches in my neck.
While on 3mg Risperdal- shallow breathing in the morning
- dyskinesia in my fingers
- stiffness in my fingers, arms and legs
- tunnel vision sometimes*
- weight gain
- angry outbursts..emotions felt fully otherwise
- dyskinetic movements on my tongue*drinking chamomile tea XLG made it go away temporarily
In the process of coming off the Risperdal 3mg
- Lisping. ( this occured once before when I was starting the meds )
- arm swing started to disappear
- started to feel very anhedonic and amotivated
- dyskinesia in fingers disappeared
- stiffness started to go away
- dyskinesia in my tongue started to go away
- weight loss, very quickly, my stomach started churning a lot too.After being off the medication for a week or two:
- started having a dry mouth
- both arms weren't swinging
- sterotypies
- stiffness started to come back
- shallow breathing in the morning
- sometimes felt slightly motivated, otherwise dead.
- no more lisping
- no more dyskinesia in fingers or on tongueI know I've mentioned these before.
The symptoms I experienced on withdrwal and on starting the medication this time are really strange. They seem far from normal and I've been having a hell of a time reassuring myself that I was seriously damaged.
Anymore insight would be appreciated.
Posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 17:03:12
In reply to side-effects/symptoms list., posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 16:43:01
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 17:49:58
In reply to side-effects/symptoms list., posted by lostforwards on November 30, 2004, at 16:43:01
I would assume that some of these symptoms are related to the medication, and that others could be related to stress itself.
I can see no issue with drinking some tea or coffee with the symtpsom you are having. If they are cause by antipsychotic (dopamine blocakde) then coffee could help (and if they subside while on coffee then it is AP related, but if they get worse on coffee, then it might be stress related)
But, I'm totally not discrediting your accounts. I've been on 4 AP's and I know a lot of funky things can happen.
If it doesn't get better, you might try a combination of clozapine, and and anticonvulsant.
Linkadge
Posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 18:57:33
In reply to Re: side-effects/symptoms list., posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 17:49:58
Hi Ed,
I tried counseling six times with different therapists and none really worked. Well, the last one did. I paid her 110 dollars a pop and went four timems a month. I blame the drugs b/c I don't really remember much. I was so suicidal. I self mutilated myself alot. I just can't believe what those drugs did to me and not once did anyone ever say it maybe the drugs causing those side effects. I am thinking of going for DBT training. I just moved to a new state in the United States and don't know the healthcare system very well yet. How long have you been on drugs? I don't know much about anyone here since I am new.Link,
I had and have muscle twitching but that is normal coming off the drugs and it isn't TD. I have more mental symptoms but most of them are due to withdrawal. I am 90 percent better and hope to continue healing. I have to be patient with myself cause the CNS doesn't heal in a linear fashion.
Posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 19:38:44
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:31:32
Forgive my intrustion, but does this in any way also apply to drugs like Effexor, which wasn't prescribed as an antipsychotic? Is it considered to be in the same class of drugs?
At any rate, thank you for the valuable information. It is most gracious of you.
Posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 20:08:03
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness, posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 19:38:44
> Forgive my intrustion, but does this in any way also apply to drugs like Effexor, which wasn't prescribed as an antipsychotic? Is it considered to be in the same class of drugs?
>
> At any rate, thank you for the valuable information. It is most gracious of you.
There is some literature out that states effexor maybe linked to TD but nothing is concrete yet. I try to stay up with research on TD. I will try to locate some info for you. I know Effexor does affects the dopamine in your brain. Do you have any symptoms?
Posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 20:44:57
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness for dancing star, posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 20:08:03
I'm not sure what TD is, but as briefly as possible here's the deal:
At the end of Sept. on a whim I stopped taking Effexor-XR 150mg after taking it for three years. It was originally prescribed for "fatigue" by a family practice doc. that I no longer see. He also prescribed Oxycontin, which I stopped taking on my own for a back injury because I didn't like the way it made me feel. As far as doctors go, I have little respect for the care and treatment that he gave me. My tiredness and pain grew worse and worse; and I couldn't run my own business or teach gym classes for fun as I used to do. I hardly ate but had gained about 25 or so pounds.
Finally someone introduced me to my current internist who began to regulate my thyroid -- who knew? But I still didn't know to quit taking Effexor, and it did not seem to have an effect on my weight. In fact, it was not being able to lose weight that finally made me quit taking Effexor.
The first two days I was fine, but by the third I was in hell in every way one can imagine. I hurt in every part of my body, from my eyelashes to my toes. By the third week off of E, I began to wonder if I would die. I spent hundreds of dollars on every high-end supplement that I read about, but nothing would help, not for long. At this point I am only left with what feels like a hole in my stomach and mildly shattered nerves in my back and neck and a general malaise. I just don't feel terrific, but I can't explain why. It could be that my stomach and back hurt all the time. I hear that the reason my teeth have been a bit ground down could also be because of this, but I didn't know that until now. I can think very, very clearly for the first time in years.
There have been some seriously horrid things that have happened in my life during the course of the last few years that I have not handled as well as I should have both because I haven't had the strength to and because I didn't care as much as I feel that I should have or would have had I not been under the influence of this drug. My fibromyalgia-type pain seems to have vanished. In its place, though, I am stuck with this annoying intestinal problem where I cannot stay out of the bathroom for very long, and my stomach is quite upset most of the time. I guess I should add that I've lost the weight :-).
I was never told about any problems with this drug, and by the look in my highly educated internist's eyes, I get the impression that he has not seen much of what I am going through. I know that he will no longer prescribe Effexor to patients as a new drug to take. In a million ways, despite my current symptoms, I feel tons better off Effexor than I did on it, mostly because of the mental clarity, but the changes were so slow and so subtle that I didn't notice them while I was taking it. I feel like I lost three years of my life, and I can't get them back. I was literally home, unable to get up, to stay awake, and I thought I had some dread disease.
That's about it. Oh, I guess I left off all that brain shiver stuff and the vision changes that I am still going through. Pretty strange things. All for a bit of fatigue? Wow, wish I had known this. Did you know that they prescribe this for things like perimenopause and all kinds of silly things?
That was not at all brief. I got on my soapbox again. I'm sorry.
Bebe
Posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 21:42:14
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness for dancing star » JACJ, posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 20:44:57
Hi Bebe,
I will write more tomorrow. I am going nighty nite but wanted to let you know if you want to leanr more on Effexor XR go to www.wyeth.com and go to prescribing information and you will find an abundant amount of information on Effexor and withdrawal which will help ease your mind. Well, it may not ease your mind but will give you some answers to your concerns. Knowledge is power and it helped me thru my drug withdrawal b/c I thought I was losing my mind until I did some research. Take care of yourself.JACJ
Posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 22:40:14
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness for dancing star » JACJ, posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 20:44:57
Hi Bebe,
I am very sorry you are suffering. I was on Effexor (150Mgs) and I came off it Cold Turkey and spent the next three days in bed with every symptom out there. I reinstated and felt immediately better. You have to taper slowly. I know it is hard to get back to normality after having a bad experience like you did but you are off now and can have a fresh new start. Psychtropic drugs are not for everyone. I am one of those people who suffered at the hands of "trusted" doctors.
What bothers me is doctor's are now putting people on some heavy hitting drugs for common problems like insominia, etc. What happened to trying more natural methods? I respect if other people really need to do drug therapy but I also get irrate when drugs are just given for any little symptom/problem.FYI- Brain Shivers are very common in withdrawal from Effexor. I had no drug withdrawal from effexor when I tapered right so I can't say how long w/d will last. It really depends on the length, dose and person. Dirnk fresh cool water with lemon. It helps detox the body and is so good for you. Stay away from white flour, sugars and processed food which increases some w/d symptoms. Take care.
JACJ
Posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 23:21:54
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness for dancing star, posted by JACJ on November 30, 2004, at 21:42:14
Thanks, JACJ. I appreciate your help. I don't eat flour, sugar, and just recently brought oatmeal back into my life. I will try your suggestion of adding lemon to the surplus of water that I drink and will also check out Wyeth's website.
I'm on a bit of a mission to change the way these drugs are handled as I know that I was never informed of these withdrawal possibilites nor of any possible side effects, and the drug reps selling/pushing to family prac docs and internists don't seem to make a habit of providing that sort info to them. As it is, Effexor was misprescribed to me in the first place. I don't suppose that I should have ever been taking it.
I completely agree that we have become a society that takes a pill for every possible problem, and doctors are too quick to handle our symptoms by writing prescriptions for potent drugs that may be dangerous. I'm not sure that they are entirely to blame. Who is to be trusted? As of lately, it doesn't seem as though one should rely on the FDA for truth in safety and efficacy, and that is all the medical community has been relying on or so it seems. Turning the paying public into unwilling gunea pigs is unethical, immoral, and just plain wrong...but they are sure making a lot of money off of us.
I guess that's why I asked the original question in the first place about whether Effexor was known by Wyeth to actually cause problems but if that information was being kept somewhat out of the hands of the medical community.
Thanks again....
Posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 7:02:30
In reply to Re: drug-induced illness for dancing star, posted by dancingstar on November 30, 2004, at 23:21:54
Hi!
While we are talking about inappropriate prescribing I just wanted to say that a friend of the family was prescribed Effexor for a very stupid reason.
She went to the doctor because she thought that she had felt a lump in her neck. The doctor asked her if she was anxious or depressed and she said no. He did not examine her neck at all, he told her that her problem was psychological (presumably her though it was globus hystericus). Anyway, he handed her a script for Effexor but gave no explanation of what the drug was for. This was all a long time ago, I think she still takes Effexor.
Ed.
Posted by JACJ on December 1, 2004, at 7:12:57
In reply to Re: Careless prescribing, posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 7:02:30
> Hi!
>
> While we are talking about inappropriate prescribing I just wanted to say that a friend of the family was prescribed Effexor for a very stupid reason.
>
> She went to the doctor because she thought that she had felt a lump in her neck. The doctor asked her if she was anxious or depressed and she said no. He did not examine her neck at all, he told her that her problem was psychological (presumably her though it was globus hystericus). Anyway, he handed her a script for Effexor but gave no explanation of what the drug was for. This was all a long time ago, I think she still takes Effexor.
>
> Ed.
Ed,
My heart breaks for your friend. This is what gets me upset. I understand people need psychotropic drugs for some severe illnesses but just to give Effexor; that just blows my mind. How long has she been on effexor? Does she have any mental probs now? I had depression and anxiety when I first went onto the drugs but while on them, about 3 months later, the docs classified me as Bi-Polar II with psychotic features. And the sad part is that I believed them. Here all along it was the side effects because of the drugs. These drugs turned me into a different person completely. I think docs need to take more pharmacology classes and truly understand the power of these drugs. I have a few friends in medical school and they only take a semester or two of pharmacology which IMO is NOT enough. The docs rely on Pharm. reps who go thru brief training on these drugs. The docs also get alot of kickbacks from these drug companies and free samples so the docs just hand them out and try. I just get very upset b/c this is down right ignorance. Just my opinion.
Posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 7:24:12
In reply to Re: Careless prescribing, posted by JACJ on December 1, 2004, at 7:12:57
Effexor is addictive too. I think they called it Effexor because it sounds like "effects her". Oh yes, my friends, that's how sneaky they are.
maybe not.
Posted by JACJ on December 1, 2004, at 7:29:29
In reply to Re: Careless prescribing » JACJ, posted by lostforwards on December 1, 2004, at 7:24:12
> Effexor is addictive too. I think they called it Effexor because it sounds like "effects her". Oh yes, my friends, that's how sneaky they are.
> maybe not.Hi Link,
I believe all psychotropic drugs are addictive. Effexor is a tough drug which has terrible w/d effects. Luckily, I didn't have any w/d effects but I was on other meds which probably masked the w/d.
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