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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 9, 2004, at 21:05:01
In reply to Re: Ramble On. » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 12:20:34
I get in the weirdest conversations when I start talking about dopamine...who would've thought a neurotransmitter could be so controversial. ;-) I can't do too much caffeine, makes me edgy and I'm not looking for an upper, per se. Yeah, the election has totally bummed me out and at this point I would just like to be content with daily life, do some paintings, and tune out for a bit. I don't need to be "high" but I don't want to be numb. Interest in mundane, routine activities sounds pretty appealing. Is that weird?
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 7:41:15
In reply to strange tangent here, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 9, 2004, at 21:05:01
>Is that weird?
You tell me. Whatever turns you on. : )
Posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 10:57:34
In reply to Re: Ramble On. » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 12:20:34
It is really hard to say.
LSD is a purely serotonin affecting agent (although like you mentioned serotonin can influcence dopamine release too)
Anyhow, LSD is sometimes the most philosophicly provoking agent (in terms of drugs)
Ie amphetamine won't open your eyes, and change your thinking in the way that LSD will. Amphetamine will simply take "you" and amplify that. Ie the term psychostimulant.
Sex is extremely lower brainstem. Any baffoon/babboon can have sex, but not ever baffoon/babboon can challenge authority with
wisdom.Serotonin has a role in social dominance in animals and in humans. SSRI's effectivly treat extreme shyness in children and in adults. Plus the monkeys that tend to take leadership roles are the ones with the highest serotonin.
Did you know that if you block the 5-ht1a receptor (a serotonin receptor) you block about 50 percent of the reinforcing properties of cocaine. Contrary to popular believe, cocaine has more affinity for the serotonin transporter than it does for the dopamine transporter.
Weird eh?Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 12:05:44
In reply to Re: Ramble On., posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 10:57:34
When I'm talking sex. I also include the obssesive feeling you get when you fall in love and how every little thing reminds you of your obsession. I've read that romantic feelings comes from increased activity in the frontal lobes ( dopamine primarily ) and this has been seen in people when they viewed pictures of their partners.
On one site that talked about the death of 'unrequited love syndrome' while taking antidepressants, it mentioned that men often reported that the feeling they get when you see someone attractive is less while they could cognitively 'know' the woman was attractive.
That loss of feeling is what I'm talking about.
I've heard about serotonin's role in social dominance.
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 13:10:45
In reply to Re: Ramble On., posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 10:57:34
I'm not saying these medications shouldn't be used to treat depression. I'm saying they have side-effects. That very high serotonin levels have a down side. You'll be able to make it up to the top of the social ladder but what about love? According to some things I've come across you might be in trouble.
According to helen fisher: "Of course, serotonin-enhancing medications blunt emotions -- that's the point."
This is your brain in Love
http://www.sophists.org/article146.html
***************************
Love at RiskAt a different APA forum, "Sex, Sexuality, and Serotonin," Dr Fisher warned that antidepressants may jeopardize romantic love. As well as high dopamine and norepinephrine, she said, romantic love is characterized by low serotonin. Low serotonin would explain the obsessive thinking attached to romantic love. In her MRI study, her subjects reported that they thought about their loved one 95 percent of the day and couldn’t stop thinking about them. This kind of obsessive thinking is comparable to OCD, she said, also characterized by low serotonin.
Serotonin-enhancing antidepressants, she said, blunt the emotions, including the elation of romance, and suppress obsessive thinking, a critical component of romance. "When you inhibit this brain system," she warned, "you can inhibit your patient’s well-being and possibly their genetic future."
These antidepressants also inhibit orgasm, clitoral stimulation, penile erection ("the entertainment system, in my business"), and deposit of seminal fluid. From an anthropological perspective, a woman who can’t get an orgasm may fail to distinguish Mr Right from Mr Wrong. As one woman on an SSRI confided to her: "I thought I no longer loved my husband." In a study in press, women on SSRIs rated male faces as more unattractive, a process she calls "courtship blunting."
Seminal fluid contains dopamine and norepinephrine, oxytocin and vasopressin, testosterone and estrogen, and FSH and LH. Without an orgasm, said Dr Fisher, men lose the ability to send courtship signals. Said one man, who lost his motivation and self esteem as a result, "I just stopped dating."
Ironically, because antidepressants inhibit depression, patients may lose their ability to send an honest clear signal for social support and (for those with mild depression) lose the necessary insight to make hard decisions (the failure of denial factor).
Dr Fisher said she didn’t want psychiatrists to stop prescribing serotonin-enhancing antidepressants for their patients, but did stress the need to take the love-relationship picture into account.
Source: http://www.mcmanweb.com/love_lust.htm
***************************************
Has the Romance Gone? Was It the Drug?
http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040504/ZNYT04/405040351/1002/BUSINESS*************************************
"..antidepressants that helped you get over your last romance might keep you from finding a new one..."
"When we fall in love, dopamine and norepinephrine levels rise, and serotonin levels fall. Taking SSRIs brings up the serotonin level and suppresses dopamine. That could inhibit romantic love.
Fisher says, "Long-term use could jeopardize people's ability to fall in love, to stay in love, or even to feel attachment for the partner they've got."..."
The complex chemistry of love
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/02/13/Floridian/The_complex_chemistry.shtml*********************************
Too High for Love?
( second article )
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/society_culture/sex_and_schopenhauer.htm****************************
So is all this bull or is there some truth to it? I believe there's truth to it and I think this topic is underappreciated and ignored.
Posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 14:43:33
In reply to love and SSRIs, posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 13:10:45
Perhaps I've never really experienced sex the way other have. (there are high keyed individuals vs. low)
But I really don't miss a thing.
Sex, and obsessions are so dirty and pointless.
When on SSRI's the whole consept of sex seems so stupid (to me at least). What a waste of time it is sitting all day long dreaming of another person. Having friends I understand, but what is actually being *accomplished* by having two people so enveloped in eachother ?? The holding of hands, the smooching, etc etc. I just want to gag at it all.
And I'm in my sexual prime !!!
I must have missed the recieving of a gene or something.
But I'm certainly not alone. There are people out there just like me (not on SSRI's) who really aren't all that interested in sex.
Think of it this way. You have really skinny people, and you have obese people. THe two have a different set point for food intake. Likewise two people could be completely different in their libito needs.
For me, I guess SSRI's were a smooth transition in that you can't miss what you never had !!
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 15:42:16
In reply to sex is way too overrated !!, posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 14:43:33
ha, just kidding. 'course we're always doing that aren't we. Romance and rumination are fast becoming a choice.( especially given the advent of these drugs )
Those that like their feelings of romantic love who're taking these meds for depression should know about the 'side-effects' so they can still have a choice.
Posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 15:50:51
In reply to Re: says you!! » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 15:42:16
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 15:51:51
In reply to you are very right. (nm), posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 15:50:51
:)
Posted by jakeman on November 11, 2004, at 0:36:35
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
me and my brother both take wellbutrin. He has a full head of hair, my hair is thinning like crazy.
Posted by tsirch on November 11, 2004, at 14:41:53
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
I just started taking sinemet, 50/200mg. 50mg of carbidopa, and 200mg levodopa. Thease pills give the brain a blast of dopamine and you would think that it would put you in a better mood. Its an anti-parkinson's. Ive been taking one in the morning for two days now along with my neurontin. Nothing, no difference yet. Dopamine sucks.
Posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
> I am trying to figure out why more antidepressants are not made to effect dopamine. Wellbutrin worked great for me but caused hair loss so I had to quit taking it. It's the only anti-depressant that I have found that works on dopamine. Also dopamine "enhancers" increase sex drive which I would think would be quite appealing for those of us tired of meds that kill it. Sometimes I wonder if the FDA doesn't really want us to feel that great, just complacent, good enough to get by and not complain. I have reason to believe from past chemicals I've ingested that my seratonin receptors may be a bit weak and I also have reason to believe that my dopamine receptors are very effective at relieving depression, increasing sex drive, and increasing interest in daily activities. Anyone got any suggestions?
I not know reason for USA but for Israel, many medications in development that work on dopamine. Recently, Israeli soldiers with PTSD are allowed to smoke cannabis. We like the good life in Israel, dopamine not a bad thing.Shalom
Posted by PhoenixGirl on November 12, 2004, at 19:48:26
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
Posted by linkadge on November 13, 2004, at 11:43:15
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
It really all depends on what your symptoms are.
One person's depression may be caused by an entirely different chemical imballence than
another's. Some people don't respond to SSRI's
and do to wellbutrin/stimulants.Use what works/ find a doctor to prescribe what will work for you.
Linkadge
Posted by Shalom34Israel on November 14, 2004, at 20:01:07
In reply to I want to move to Israel :), posted by PhoenixGirl on November 12, 2004, at 19:48:26
>
Why? you must be combat vet with combat PTSD to smoke it legally here. Objective is not to just turn soldiers into potheads, but to treat their anxiety.
Shalom
Posted by underthewave on November 16, 2004, at 9:35:49
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 8:28:52
I believe that I have become treatment resistant. I was diagnosed with Major Depression and Panic Disorder in 1987. I started with TCAs and then in the 90s started SSRIs. I have also tried the serotonin/norepinephine combos (Effexor, Cymbalta)....It sounds like I might benefit from an increase in Dopamine. What psychiatric drugs increase dopamine and can they be used in combination with SSRIs? I've also heard it helps with libido (and mine is lacking). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Posted by King Vultan on November 16, 2004, at 22:57:31
In reply to dopamine -- tell me more please, posted by underthewave on November 16, 2004, at 9:35:49
> I believe that I have become treatment resistant. I was diagnosed with Major Depression and Panic Disorder in 1987. I started with TCAs and then in the 90s started SSRIs. I have also tried the serotonin/norepinephine combos (Effexor, Cymbalta)....It sounds like I might benefit from an increase in Dopamine. What psychiatric drugs increase dopamine and can they be used in combination with SSRIs? I've also heard it helps with libido (and mine is lacking). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Wellbutrin is the most common dopaminergic antidepressant, and it is often combined with SSRIs. Provigil is a stimulant that seems to also increase dopamine, and this could also be used with an SSRI. It is only a Schedule IV stimulant and is considered less problematic than the amphetamines and Ritalin, but it can be expensive. You might also consider the MAOI Parnate, which basically has to be taken by itself; although, it does work on serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Nardil is another MAOI that is available, but it is not nearly as dopaminergic as Parnate, but it is somewhat more so than an SSRI.Todd
Posted by underthewave on November 17, 2004, at 7:59:37
In reply to Re: dopamine -- tell me more please » underthewave, posted by King Vultan on November 16, 2004, at 22:57:31
Thanks Todd. I did some research yesterday and did find that the WB was dopaminergic. PDOC and I talked last night and I don't want to be on an MAO. In the past we have discussed Provigil but for now we are going to try bumping up the Cymbalta and see what happens. God, I've been on so many meds. You'd think with all of the research that has been done there would be 1 pill that would work on all 3 neurotransmitters. Doc said most of the dopaminergics were used for Parkinsons and schizoprenia..thanks for the info.
Posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 11:44:01
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
Americans are prudes. It's the Protestant Work Ethic & all that. If it feels good it must be dangerous and bad and risk sending you to hell.
Nonsense!
Posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 12:04:33
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by tsirch on November 11, 2004, at 14:41:53
tsirch,
Not all dopamine drugs feel good I think, it is odd how differently they act. Certainly many norepenephrine drugs have all sorts of icky side effects. Did you talk your doc into these for depression somehow? My overseas dopamine meds are definitely nice happy pills. Probably not available here because they feel good, only the icky dopamine drugs are allowed here. Ritalin & Amphetamines are probably the only exceptions but they require triplicate forms for prescriptions even though the side effects are no where near as bad as so many other icky feeling drugs.
> I just started taking sinemet, 50/200mg. 50mg of carbidopa, and 200mg levodopa. Thease pills give the brain a blast of dopamine and you would think that it would put you in a better mood. Its an anti-parkinson's. Ive been taking one in the morning for two days now along with my neurontin. Nothing, no difference yet. Dopamine sucks.
Posted by Iansf on November 17, 2004, at 18:29:40
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 12:04:33
> My overseas dopamine meds are definitely nice happy pills. Probably not available here because they feel good, only the icky dopamine drugs are allowed here. Ritalin & Amphetamines are probably the only exceptions but they require triplicate forms for prescriptions even though the side effects are no where near as bad as so many other icky feeling drugs.
>What dopamine drugs are you taking?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 17, 2004, at 20:55:10
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by pablo1 on November 17, 2004, at 11:44:01
> Americans are prudes.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 30, 2004, at 20:15:48
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression? » pablo1, posted by Iansf on November 17, 2004, at 18:29:40
What overseas dopamine meds (nice happy pills) are you taking? I have been getting pretty disgusted with what I've been finding out about American pharmaceutical companies. I'm starting to see the patterns of ridiculous overmarketing, over-prescribing, often more side effects than benefits and then lawsuits, etc. I can't understand why they are so against something that will make you feel happy, not just numb. If they're worried about addiction, most of the prescription antidepressants have severe withdrawal. I know from personal experience and from the countless experiences of others. It's like, "here, take this pill, you will have the will to work and be responsible, maybe you'll quit smoking or drinking or getting into abusive relationship, fill in the blank, but, I'm sorry you won't have a sex drive at all but you won't really care, so that's ok, you're hair might fall out, might get insomnia and tired all day, etc etc etc." You know what I'm saying. I just keep trying to understand the motivation. Sorry for the rant....just frustrated. Anybody feel me?
> > My overseas dopamine meds are definitely nice happy pills. Probably not available here because they feel good, only the icky dopamine drugs are allowed here. Ritalin & Amphetamines are probably the only exceptions but they require triplicate forms for prescriptions even though the side effects are no where near as bad as so many other icky feeling drugs.
Posted by gromit on December 1, 2004, at 2:01:39
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 30, 2004, at 20:15:48
> What overseas dopamine meds (nice happy pills) are you taking? I have been getting pretty disgusted with what I've been finding out about American pharmaceutical companies. I'm starting to see the patterns of ridiculous overmarketing, over-prescribing, often more side effects than benefits and then lawsuits, etc. I can't understand why they are so against something that will make you feel happy, not just numb. If they're worried about addiction, most of the prescription antidepressants have severe withdrawal. I know from personal experience and from the countless experiences of others. It's like, "here, take this pill, you will have the will to work and be responsible, maybe you'll quit smoking or drinking or getting into abusive relationship, fill in the blank, but, I'm sorry you won't have a sex drive at all but you won't really care, so that's ok, you're hair might fall out, might get insomnia and tired all day, etc etc etc." You know what I'm saying. I just keep trying to understand the motivation. Sorry for the rant....just frustrated. Anybody feel me?
Maybe they don't want to waste time and money on things not likely to get approved? Our government has gone to the supreme court to take medication away from cancer patients. In my mind that says it all.
Rick
Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on December 1, 2004, at 7:44:44
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by gromit on December 1, 2004, at 2:01:39
Exactly. A friend of mine recently took a co-worker to the emergency room because her migraines were so bad she was crying in pain. They refused to give her anything stronger than Tylonol and sent her on her way with a $700 bill. Couldn't they have just saved her the time and money and just cut her off at the door?
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