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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on September 9, 2004, at 14:01:41
Aren't they both reputake inhibitors of dopamine.
I guess my real question is: how is cocaine addictive if it is just a reputake inhibitor of dopamine, isn't wellbutrin a reputake inhibitor of dopamine? it isn't addictive.
Linkadge
Posted by King Vultan on September 9, 2004, at 14:16:30
In reply to how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by linkadge on September 9, 2004, at 14:01:41
> Aren't they both reputake inhibitors of dopamine.
>
> I guess my real question is: how is cocaine addictive if it is just a reputake inhibitor of dopamine, isn't wellbutrin a reputake inhibitor of dopamine? it isn't addictive.
>
>
> LinkadgeWellbutrin isn't, I believe, because it is so weak compared to the stimulants you mention. Cocaine OTH is a powerful inhibitor of dopamine reuptake and also has actions at both the norepinephrine and serotonin transporters. According to Stahl in "Essential Psychopharmacology", "it may actually release dopamine (or norepinephrine or serotonin) by reversing neurotransmitter out of the presynaptic neuron via the monoamine transporters."
He talks about Ritalin possibly being able to do the same thing with the dopamine transporter, but I'm assuming one of the differences in abuse potential between it and cocaine (which are both Schedule II controlled substances BTW) is that Ritalin, again, is not as powerful as cocaine at blocking dopamine reuptake. I believe cocaine may also be somewhat faster acting.
Todd
Posted by linkadge on September 9, 2004, at 14:37:19
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by King Vultan on September 9, 2004, at 14:16:30
is it safe to say that low doses of cocaine would be effective for ADHD ??, and that high doses of ritalin would produce a high ??
Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on September 9, 2004, at 18:10:03
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by linkadge on September 9, 2004, at 14:37:19
high doses of ritalin definitely produce a high, that is why it is schedule II. The difference between Ritalin and cocaine is supposed to be primarily pharmacokinetic. Cocaine produces a rapid effect then clears out quickly; Ritalin is also quick but apparently slow enough to present less of an abuse problem than cocaine. Ritalin is actually more selective for the DA transporter than cocaine, and some of cocaine's addictive properties are hypothesized to lie in its effects on the 5HT transporter, which Ritalin lacks.
Posted by linkadge on September 10, 2004, at 9:26:39
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by zeugma on September 9, 2004, at 18:10:03
But what about say zoloft ? It affects mainly serotonin with some effect on the dopamine transporter.
I guess my main questions is that I thought that
the reason AD's were not supposed to be addictive was because they are reputake inhibitors rather than neurotransmitter releasers. But if cocaine is just a reputake inhibitor than I am confused. Is it the part of the brain that the drugs affect as well ?
Linkadge
Posted by pablo1 on September 10, 2004, at 11:32:52
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by linkadge on September 10, 2004, at 9:26:39
No I think addictive potential has more to do with fast action, that's why smoking crack cocaine or shooting up heroine is much faster acting than swallowing pills and more addictive. That's why people snort ritalin because it's faster/shorter acting than taking a pill.
Reuptake inhibition just means it prevents your body from regulating dopamine so you drown in your own natural dopamine.
linkadge wrote:
the reason AD's were not supposed to be addictive was because they are reputake inhibitors rather than neurotransmitter releasers. But if cocaine is just a reputake inhibitor than I am confused. Is it the part of the brain that the drugs affect as well ?
Posted by iris2 on September 10, 2004, at 14:28:09
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by linkadge on September 10, 2004, at 9:26:39
Just a subjective comment from personal experience.
I self medicated with cocaine for almost three years. I would snort small amounts at work to get through and function while there. It was addictive but not like smoking it which is how I got a lot of problems at the end. I take ritalin now for many years. It is different. I get less mood uplift from the ritalin but more energy. It does not seem to me to be addictive at all. Eccept when I stop it I have no energy to get out of bed but that is one of the reasons I take it. I do not feel physical or emotional withdrawel. With the cocaine when I tried to stop it or ran out I definitely felt mental cravings for it and would be very upset when I ran out.
irene
Posted by MindReseacher on September 11, 2004, at 3:49:05
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 10, 2004, at 14:28:09
Hi, i may have some imput in this area, though i moresoe research Adderall and its pharmokinetics.
Ritalin and Cocaine are similar, in the way dopamine is realease from an area in the VTA terminals in the NUCLEUS ACCUMBENS. When dopamine is releases/reuptaken Via this area, it produces a feeling of well being, Reward, Euphoria, More feeling of zest energy, etc.
I dont believe it blocks dopamine reuptake as much as cocaine, . Ritalin also reuptakes Norepinephrine, to an extend, which is why most people who agree out of the 3 drugs adderall, dexedrine, and Ritalin, Ritalin would cause the most anxiety. But it does have focus ability, moresoe if you want to stay up all night and cram. Iv used ritalin, and snorted it. Snorting it produced an effect 5x better than oral, yet adderall , orally is better.Now adderall is 4 amphetamine salts. 1/4 of adderall is dextro-Amphetamine. This is the "one" an ADD person would most benifit from, due to the fact it causes the most mental stimulation and least anxiety. SOme persons say dexedrine causes less anxiety than 2 cups of coffee.
For me, I take Adderall, which works like a dream , for my severe ADD, type 2. Before I was persribed adderall, I was using Opiates to feel motivation and social. Now , adderall gives me this type of feeling, without the high. ALthough i do take Some Klonopin, Lexapro , suboxone for opiate control. But if i were to pick one for motivation, doing things, creativity, Socializing, Adderall would def. top the chart.
Klonopin I take at a low dose of .5mg 2-3x day just to knock off any anxiety from adderall. Works great, and the dose doesnt block adderall effects.
Suboxone, a partial opiate, may work synergistically with Adderall. Doesnt cause any high for me, but helps with some cravings and you cant use while on it. Having Depression, Social Phobia, Depression, and Drug addiction, is a very hard to manage situation. But with the proper nutrition, excersice, and Meds you can beat it. And imo, these docs who are afraid to work with you, or are afraid to write you like a small amount of a benzo, well by by. Yes Ritalin, Adderall/Dex are schedule 2. But In actuality, it should be a 3. Its no way near oxy, or the other pain meds in addictive qualities for most of the drug addicted population.
Adderall, i can stay up all night and just read, study, do computer work, you name it. As opposed to laying around with absolutely no motivation, or life is boring at every thing i do, I much rather stay on A med which makes me feel a bit better. And NO High, but there is an abuse possiblilty. Well, i take 30mg , never any more, and 3x daily, which works out great.Im up on average 18 hrs a day, so every 5-6 hrs I take my adderall, which covers the who day.
Now the night dose, i make sure if say im going to bed at 4am, i take the adderall no later than 10pm. By the time im hitting the sack, i feel more tired, and taking 2mg of Klonopin, im out. Even if i did take it, and 2 hrs later, wanted to sleep, 1mg of KP would help me, and i would be able to sleep. The anxiety is not as bad as one assumes.
Cocaine i never used nor will I. WHy i use oxycontins, and went over board, well drug addiction, is not specific to one type of person or drug. Everyone has different addictions, and respond different to medication.
I would never post " oh take adderall, you will def absolutely be cured or feel great" I use IMO, and from what most of the other persons i spoke to state, and i take it from there.
If 10 people took Ritalin and then took adderall after so, i cant say oh well all 10 people will prefer adderall. But what i could say is that IMO, i would believe more people would prefer adderall because of a large amount of research i read and examples. Maybe it would be even, or even moresoe Ritalin.
Look at me, i would not touch Cocaine, but i do like Ritalin when i must take a break from adderall. And IMO!, Ritalin and cocaine share similar properties. Esp when snorting it. (ritalin)
Lastly, Methamphetamine. Now taking dysoxin, the pharmaceutical grade, i would have to say this. It has a double, no triple wammy effect. It blocks dopamine, and NE, It Releases dopamine and NE, and releases serotonin. And Not like ssri's where it blocks the reuptake, i would suspect it would increase the release 10 fold or whatever ie, like extacy would, but not as much. So your getting a triple wammy effect. MEth can be very wicking addiction, I know a guy in rehab who was up 18 days ono meth! I dont know, about that, but he must have been on mars. The most iv ever or longest i stayed up was 3 full days. By the 3rd day, or night i was ready to puke, but when i did lay down, i could not fall right alseep, i was seeing trails and minor hypnogenic resolutions. Mostly caused by Amphetamines, dopamine disassociation, and lack of sleep, does not allow the Neurotransmitters to replenish. I slept like 10 hrs, woke up and felt in a different world. But anymore, 1 night is enought.
Ya this post is long. But i gues im in the mood to typle tonight. Which is positive.
FInally, and down to earth, lol, after about 5 different docotors 2 p-docs, numerous med trials, ball park figure 15-20, I finally found a combo regiment that really really impacts my life, helps my drug cravings, Feel sorta like i got that zezt of life back. When using opiates and GHB for 4 yrs, im sure i did some twisting of brain wires and lost some of the BRAIN FUCTIONING, for starters, but with the help of nutrition, esp MIND nutrition, which im currenlty researching, one can really get back his brain health, keep there drug or alcohol addicton at bay, and there mental health isssue a tame.
Thank you
Mind Reseach
Posted by craig getty on September 11, 2004, at 8:39:34
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ? » linkadge, posted by pablo1 on September 10, 2004, at 11:32:52
here's my 2 cents on the subject from the perspective of how they affected me. Coke is stronger in terms of increasing my focus, making me social, and it has a much more powerful "feel good" affect. The problem is that it lasts so much shorter, and you find yourself having to constantly do more to keep this affect going. Eventually, it is counterproductive because instead of an aid (or self-medication) it becomes a hinderance - it becomes all about the coke, and i end up being less social (in the normal sense) and less productive (it's hard to write or study when all you can think about is the next bump you'll need in 15 minutes.) Ritalin, unfortunately, lost it's punch for me after a month or so of using it.
I've recently started adderrall xr, which seems like a nice fit. It's less "speedy" than ritalin and more effective for focus. It doesn't have the intense feel good effect of coke (or even what ritalin had at first), but then again I'm only on 10 mg.
Question....does anyone know anything about the possibility of alka seltzer or baking soda increasing the effectiveness of ritalin or adderrall? If this is true, how does it work?
Posted by iris2 on September 11, 2004, at 13:41:16
In reply to Re: how do ritalin and cocaine differ ?, posted by craig getty on September 11, 2004, at 8:39:34
Question....does anyone know anything about the possibility of alka seltzer or baking soda increasing the effectiveness of ritalin or adderrall? If this is true, how does it work?
I never heard of this. I would also be interested in what anyone has to say about it.
This is the end of the thread.
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