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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on August 29, 2004, at 10:44:47
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL.......oh my » alesta, posted by Dinah on August 29, 2004, at 9:56:24
Hi Dinah.
> I spoke to my neurologist about this, and he wants me to eliminate caffeine after 3 pm before I do anything about the Provigil and see how that works.
That is a perfect plan.
You might find that things work out well if you can get that full 8 hours sleep. Some investigative work done recently and reported in the media suggested that getting 9 or more hours of sleep is counterproductive and possibly physically unhealthy.
I would not become fixated on the fear that you might become "addicted" to Provigil. The drug doesn't work like that. It doesn't induce cravings or psychological dependence. It doesn't even seem to promote physiological dependence. You should be able to come off of it relatively easily should you choose to.
Good luck.
Has Rick posted recently regarding his experience with long-term use of Provigil?
- Scott
Posted by zeugma on August 29, 2004, at 12:17:28
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL....... » Dinah, posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 10:09:04
> hi, dinah :),
>
> you're welcome. i don't notice any indication of "the stupids" whatsoever in your post. to the contrary, you sound very intelligent.I guess that on the other message board, that would mean she was a Cephalon plant ;)
>
> yes, it seems like avoiding the afternoon caffeine intake is the answer, if the stupifing effect they talk about truly is just an issue of sleep deprivation. zeugma and i have been working out this issue in another thread (above, i think it's called "a civilized discourse on provigil"), if you'd like to take a look at it. she takes ritalin as well, which only lasts a couple hours, so the solution for her is to take ritalin instead of caffeine...i hope you can figure something out...(i'm not talking about extended release ritalin, but the other. it gives a short, approximately 2-hour boost...would be perfect to take for your crash, possibly...)
>I do agree about the caffeine issue. I have become a true caffeine addict over the years in which I was self-medicating, and I was instructed by the doctor to cut down as much as possible on caffeine, and to avoid it completely after 3 p.m. This has proved hard for me to follow, as that corresponds to the period in which I crash, but the few times I've given in and felt instant relief were paid for with insomnia. And the terrible thing about sleep debt is that it exerts its most detrimental effects not the day after, but later, as many as four or five days where it can lead to a total 'meltdown.' I can well imagine that sleep debt can accumulate and lead to disaster after months.
For the past week, though, I've been able to sleep more or less normally. I attribute this largely to better adherence to my dr.'s insructions about caffeine.
Btw, I realize that my screen name is ambiguous as to gender, but I am male. By coincidence, there is another poster whose screen name is an almost literal translation of mine, 'linkadge,' also male.
-z (enjoying last cup of coffee before ban for the day goes in place. oh yea- need to get some decaffeinated coffee for the delicious placebo effect :))
> take care,
> amy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the link.
> >
> > I've been a bit concerned myself with my Provigil use. I feel like I'm abusing it, even though I'm taking only half the prescribed dose. It does decrease my daytime naps, and I'm more productive. But I'm starting to feel the accumulated sleep loss. Maybe I *need* to sleep ten hours a day rather than seven.
> >
> > It doesn't feel right somehow to trade increased productivity for what feels like some sleep deprivation damage being done to my body. All my puritan instincts are sending up red flags.
> >
> > I don't *feel* the stupids yet, but from what they said, I'd be the last to know? I haven't noticed an increased error rate in my work.
> >
> > I spoke to my neurologist about this, and he wants me to eliminate caffeine after 3 pm before I do anything about the Provigil and see how that works.
>
>
Posted by Dinah on August 29, 2004, at 13:22:57
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL......., posted by zeugma on August 29, 2004, at 12:17:28
That's my main indulgence and I drink it till late in the night. It's never been a problem to my sleep till now, and it's going to be hard to break that habit.
And I don't think I worry about addiction so much. There are days I don't take it, and the only thing I notice is that I'm very very tired.
I just worry sometimes that I'm taking Klonopin and Provigil and I wonder if the only difference between me and someone who is in danger of arrest is the insurance coverage to pay for a doctor. :( It just doesn't *feel* right, somehow.
But like I said, I have rather Puritanical views about meds, at least in regards to myself.
Posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 13:34:38
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL......., posted by zeugma on August 29, 2004, at 12:17:28
> Btw, I realize that my screen name is ambiguous as to gender, but I am male.
OMG, zeugma, i am so sorry! i don't know why i assumed you were female! i was wondering for the longest time and then i guess my subconscious just went ahead and picked a gender to think of you as. :) i don't think it's natural to think of a person in a genderless way, you know what i mean? anyways..thanks for telling me!!!forgive me, dear sir...(being dramatic :))
amy :)
Posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 13:44:26
In reply to I'll definitely try cutting down on the diet Coke, posted by Dinah on August 29, 2004, at 13:22:57
hi, again, dinah,
i am also conservative with meds, and believe in exhausting more natural options first as well as finding out any health issues that could be causing problems. i also like to know what the true problems are. what is the reason you are taking the provigil? is it to counteract klonopin sleepiness or did you have fatigue before klonopin?amy
> That's my main indulgence and I drink it till late in the night. It's never been a problem to my sleep till now, and it's going to be hard to break that habit.
>
> And I don't think I worry about addiction so much. There are days I don't take it, and the only thing I notice is that I'm very very tired.
>
> I just worry sometimes that I'm taking Klonopin and Provigil and I wonder if the only difference between me and someone who is in danger of arrest is the insurance coverage to pay for a doctor. :( It just doesn't *feel* right, somehow.
>
> But like I said, I have rather Puritanical views about meds, at least in regards to myself.
Posted by Dinah on August 29, 2004, at 14:28:28
In reply to Re: I'll definitely try cutting down on the diet Coke » Dinah, posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 13:44:26
My neurologist thinks it's likely I have narcolepsy although the sleep test wasn't conclusive. I'm not nearly as sure as he is, although a good number of my mother's large family has been diagnosed with narcolepsy or idiopathic hypersomnia.
I don't think my daytime sleepiness has increased since starting Klonopin, although some of the sleep problems noted in the study (central apnea and reduced stage 3-4 sleep) can be caused by Klonopin. But since I started the Klonopin because I'd wake up at 3 in the morning with anxiety attacks, I'm not sure doing away with it would help my sleep any. :)
Still, I do wonder if I'd need the Provigil without the Klonopin and Depakote (for mood stabilization and migraine prophylaxis). How much is the medication merry-go-round?
Oh well. First things first, I suppose. See if reducing caffeine stops the Provigil from interfering with my sleep. If it does, it might feel more natural (like the Klonopin and Depakote do) and it won't feel as much like I'm popping pills to meet some external standard of productivity.
Posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 14:56:23
In reply to Re: I'll definitely try cutting down on the diet Coke » alesta, posted by Dinah on August 29, 2004, at 14:28:28
dinah :),
no, i don't think you should go off the klonopin...i just wondered b/c some people say they take provigil due to klonopin-induced drowsiness...i was going to suggest if that was the case for you (which it isn't, so never mind) that you reduce your klonopin dose a bit. it seems like you have good reasons for taking everything you're taking right now. please stop thinking about taking meds in such a negative light.:) there is a crucial difference between you and a drug abuser off the street. You’re taking these drugs to become normal. These street addicts are taking them to get high. they are abusing drugs, you are using them properly. and in some cases I’m sure these street addicts are attempting to merely self-medicate, but they are going about it the wrong way. They need to go to a good psychiatrist who can help them restore a more natural balance, rather than throw it off even further..amy :)
Posted by zeugma on August 29, 2004, at 17:30:05
In reply to zeugma...sorry!!:), posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 13:34:38
> > Btw, I realize that my screen name is ambiguous as to gender, but I am male.
>
> OMG, zeugma, i am so sorry! i don't know why i assumed you were female! i was wondering for the longest time and then i guess my subconscious just went ahead and picked a gender to think of you as. :) i don't think it's natural to think of a person in a genderless way, you know what i mean? anyways..thanks for telling me!!!
>no forgiveness needed. it's impossible to think of anyone in a genderless way, and in particular the English language forces gendered pronouns on us, so when confronted by an ambiguous name, one must pick. I find gender one of those difficult things to understand, myself. but I'm working on it! :)
> forgive me, dear sir...(being dramatic :))
> amy :)
again no forgiveness necessary...-z
Posted by Rick on August 30, 2004, at 18:48:43
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » Dinah, posted by SLS on August 29, 2004, at 10:44:47
> Has Rick posted recently regarding his experience with long-term use of Provigil?
Interesting to check out Psycho-Babble for the first time in many moons and see that someone had just asked about me the day before.
So we've discovered an exciting new benefit of long-tern Provigil use, namely development of telepathic powers :)
Eveything's still going fine after four years of a combo of 100 mg Provigil + 1 mg Klonopin for non-depressive Social Phobia. (At various times I've had some other stuff in the mix, but not for quite awhile.)
Provigil has a lot fewer side effects than the great majority of psychotropics I've taken. The main adverse effects over the past year are sometimes-awful dry mouth (my pdoc thinks it's the Klonopin, but I don't) and occasional increased heart rate. Provigil still works great as part of my anxiety treatment (e.g., makes me more outgoing) and doesn't interfere with sleep. Maybe a few times a month I experience some insomnia which might be exacerbated by Provigil (I really can't tell), and also a few times a month I experience the kind of daytime sleepiness that I had frequently pre-Provigil.
I do have some episodes of memory problems and what that gaggle of INTENSE conspiracy-obsessed sleep board folks called the "stoopids", as well as low motivation at times, but who knows what the drivers are? My guess is that the main suspects are Klonopin, increasing age (most recently at a rate of 1 year every 365 days) and/or...well...ME.
Rick
Posted by alesta on August 30, 2004, at 20:17:23
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » SLS, posted by Rick on August 30, 2004, at 18:48:43
hi, rick :),
i just wanted to say hi and welcome you back for however long you intend to stick around. i feel like i know you, as i've read so many of your klonopin posts while doing research...i guess that kinda makes you a psychobabble "celebrity.":)
take care,
amy
Posted by Rick on August 30, 2004, at 23:06:44
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL --Rick, posted by alesta on August 30, 2004, at 20:17:23
Thanks, Amy! I've been called many things through the years, but I don't think "celebrity" was one of them. You've made my day...unless, of course, you meant INFAMOUS celebrity ;)
Rick
Posted by Rick on August 31, 2004, at 1:38:19
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » SLS, posted by Rick on August 30, 2004, at 18:48:43
Oops...Just realized I neglected to say that my long-term personal experience with Provigil supports Scott's reply to Dinah top-to-bottom.
Rick
Posted by SLS on August 31, 2004, at 8:04:06
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » SLS, posted by Rick on August 30, 2004, at 18:48:43
Hi Rick!
> > Has Rick posted recently regarding his experience with long-term use of Provigil?
>
> Interesting to check out Psycho-Babble for the first time in many moons and see that someone had just asked about me the day before.Synchronicity is scary sometimes, but always fun to think about!
It's good to see you.
I am so glad to hear that things are still good with you. I wish you had been around a few weeks ago to render your comments on the utility of benzodiazepines. Unfortunately, benzo-phobia among practicing psychiatrists still runs rampant. At times, it seems absolutely brainless.
A dear friend of mine who has schizoaffective disorder remained symptom-free for several years taking a combination of Xanax + Risperdal. That's all she needed. Then, she changed doctors. The new guy decided that Xanax was a demon, and mandated that she discontinue it in favor of Neurontin. Despite 8 hospitalizations for psychosis in 1 1/2 years, this doctor stubbornly refused to restart Xanax, despite her pleadings. She has since seen two more doctors with the same results. The longest she has been symptom free was three months ago when she managed to get a hold of some Xanax through a GP. Unfortunately, she is in the state system, and is given little choice as to who she must see for treatment. She is in the hospital right now.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on August 31, 2004, at 9:35:14
In reply to Provigil -- Scott Dinah, posted by Rick on August 31, 2004, at 1:38:19
Posted by Rick on August 31, 2004, at 15:11:53
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » Rick, posted by SLS on August 31, 2004, at 8:04:06
Posted by alesta on August 31, 2004, at 15:28:07
In reply to Yikes re your poor friend's mistreatment - Jeez! (nm) » SLS, posted by Rick on August 31, 2004, at 15:11:53
hi, again, rick :),
yeah, you sort of came back at a *weird* time.:) things are definitely heating up around here!amy :)
Posted by zeugma on August 31, 2004, at 18:17:38
In reply to Re: Yikes re your poor friend's mistreatment - Jeez!, posted by alesta on August 31, 2004, at 15:28:07
check out what's been added at Depression Web World, and note what a change of line this appears to be about the merits of benzos for anxiety...
http://www.depression-webworld.com/brainstormsndx.htm
scroll down to the bottom, and contrast particularly with entry 17 in the series.
-z
Posted by alesta on August 31, 2004, at 19:57:55
In reply to shocking development about benzos at Web World » alesta, posted by zeugma on August 31, 2004, at 18:17:38
hi, zeug!
i'm having problems with my computer...it says the plugin won't initialize or something...i do have adobe acrobat reader, i think, unless i uninstalled it...darn. i'll have to get back to you on that...i'm looking forward to reading this information..!thanks, zeugy!
Posted by zana on September 1, 2004, at 16:23:09
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » Rick, posted by SLS on August 31, 2004, at 8:04:06
i have taken provigil for 2 years and LOVED it at first. did all the good things people mentioned and SE, slight headache, stomach, tight muscles were more than worth it. i take klono and neurontin at night so getting to sleep was not a big deal. BUT after a while I found that i started majorly crashing in early evening 3 or 4 hrs after second dose and would get sweats and thrash when i lay down. Pdoc said last 2 were serotonin effects. i felt as if provigil were exhausting a neurotransmitter and then i just had to wait for there to be more the next day.
eventually stopped. now use for a few days at a time, once a day and only 1/4dose (ie 50ish mg hard to tell since pill is only scored for half break.) this gives me same ole benefits w/o crashes.
Posted by Rick on September 1, 2004, at 17:36:38
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick?, posted by zana on September 1, 2004, at 16:23:09
> i have taken provigil for 2 years and LOVED it at first. did all the good things people mentioned and SE, slight headache, stomach, tight muscles were more than worth it. i take klono and neurontin at night so getting to sleep was not a big deal. BUT after a while I found that i started majorly crashing in early evening 3 or 4 hrs after second dose and would get sweats and thrash when i lay down. Pdoc said last 2 were serotonin effects. i felt as if provigil were exhausting a neurotransmitter and then i just had to wait for there to be more the next day.
> eventually stopped. now use for a few days at a time, once a day and only 1/4dose (ie 50ish mg hard to tell since pill is only scored for half break.) this gives me same ole benefits w/o crashes.That's great that 50mg taken intermittently seems effective for you while reducing the side effects you were experiencing. This is especially nice with a med that's so pricey! I've tried cutting my daily 100mg to 50mg a few times in an effort to reduce the dry mouth, but 50 really didn't seem to provide much theraputic benefit.
Rick
Posted by alesta on September 1, 2004, at 18:16:03
In reply to shocking development about benzos at Web World » alesta, posted by zeugma on August 31, 2004, at 18:17:38
hi, zeugma :),
my computer won't let me read the document for some reason...i don't want to be a pain in the neck here, but could you possibly copy and paste the "shocking development" onto this site when you get a chance? i would be eternally grateful....:)thank you!
amy :)
Posted by zeugma on September 1, 2004, at 18:59:37
In reply to Re: shocking development about benzos--zeug..., posted by alesta on September 1, 2004, at 18:16:03
> hi, zeugma :),
> my computer won't let me read the document for some reason...i don't want to be a pain in the neck here, but could you possibly copy and paste the "shocking development" onto this site when you get a chance? i would be eternally grateful....:)
>
> thank you!
> amy :)Amy, the site is down.It's not your computer. Maybe the development was really too "shocking" after all.
Let's hope they recover soon
:)
z
Posted by zeugma on September 1, 2004, at 19:06:09
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick?, posted by zana on September 1, 2004, at 16:23:09
BUT after a while I found that i started majorly crashing in early evening 3 or 4 hrs after second dose and would get sweats and thrash when i lay down. Pdoc said last 2 were serotonin effects. i felt as if provigil were exhausting a neurotransmitter and then i just had to wait for there to be more the next day.>>
yes, i felt certain this drug had serotonin effects, although of course this drug is shrouded in mystery. Is the effect like being on too high of a dose of SSRI, assuming you've taken one?
And yes, yes, the crash is awful. It's a little better when I take it with 10 mg Ritalin, but still steep and draining (I hate it). Btw I take it for ADHD and possible narcolepsy, am at 100 mg all in the am to fend off insomnia. Have you also taken Ritalin? Would you recommend it over Provigil?
-z
Posted by zeugma on September 1, 2004, at 19:07:18
In reply to Re: um.....interesting dialog on PROVIGIL... Rick? » zana, posted by zeugma on September 1, 2004, at 19:06:09
i forgot to mention, at about 4 pm i also get drenched in sweat.
Posted by zeugma on September 2, 2004, at 4:53:01
In reply to Re: shocking development about benzos--zeug... » alesta, posted by zeugma on September 1, 2004, at 18:59:37
the site is back up. unfortunately i can't cut and paste an article in pdf format from my computer. I'll paraphrase then: Dr. Stahl says that despite recommendations to use SSRI's as first-line treatments for anxiety disorders, he says that in fact benzodiazepines are more widely prescribed, and that since each treatment has an independent mechanism for treating anxiety, it is pharrmacologically rational to combine the two classes of drugs and that remission is more likely when both are used together.
What he doesn't say, but is implied by the fact that he doesn't appear critical of the fact that benzos are prescribed more widely, is that benzodiazepines are probably more effective than SSRI's for anxiety.Another interesting thing is that Paxil is the most prescribed SSRI for anxiety. I think Paxil would have been the SSRI that I would have had the best chance of tolerating, because of this; although of course it also has the worst s/e profile of the SSRI's (probably related to why it works better). I wasn't able to try it because of possible serious interactions with TCA's.
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