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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
Can someone tell me which meds increase dopamine and are legal in the U.S.?
I'm currently on Wellbutrin and Effexor. I think more dopamine is what I need for my dysthymia, daytime sleepiness, and low motivation.
I have been on Wellbutrin (350 mg) for the last several months but was still tired and low in motivation. So, my pdoc added Effexor. I have been on it for a month (1st week @ 75mg and since then 150 mg). Effexor was supposed to give me more energy, but so far I think it is making me more tired - maybe because I always wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall back asleep.
Provigil and Ritalin have not worked for me in the past (I developed a quick tolerance), so my pdoc is reluctant to try another stimulant. I've even tried ginseng, ginko, and vitamin B for energy, but these don't work.
Posted by King Vultan on August 6, 2004, at 7:50:13
In reply to Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
The only drugs in the antidepressant class that are truly dopaminergic are Wellbutrin and Parnate. Beyond those two, you would have to go to the stimulant class, where most of the drugs there, such as Ritalin and the amphetamines, are also dopaminergic.
Your experience with the Effexor sounds very much like mine. I found this stuff generally to make me tired during the day, with insomnia at night; although, these problems are probably interconnected to some extent. If I had to do it over again, I definitely would have used some kind of sleep aid with the Effexor, as I had the same problem as you with waking up and not being able to get back to sleep, even after taking the drug for a year or more.
The stimulant Provigil might be worth a try for you, as this is especially effective for daytime sleepiness and fatigue. It is expensive but is not as problematic as the amphetamines are, being only a Schedule IV controlled substance (the amphetamines and Ritalin are Schedule II). This drug has a highly favorable rating by users of it compared to most antidepressants.
The other one which would seem to be indicated for you is the MAOI Parnate, which has an amphetamine-like structure with a direct stimulant effect. However, it is also an MAO inhibitor, with all of the dietary and OTC drug restrictions. This is actually the next drug I am going to be trying, and I really feel it's going to do the job for me--or at least be more effective than most of the ten or so drugs I have already tried. I have dysthymia/depression, anhedonia, and some fatigue and ADD symptoms.
Todd
Posted by Charm on August 6, 2004, at 12:02:44
In reply to Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
Hi Craig -
Your situation sounds very familiar. I suffer from the same fatigue and lack of motivation.
I did find some improvement moving from the 150 mg of Effexor to the 300 mg of Effexor. I have also just recently started 30 mg a day of Adderall XR. Monday I go back to my pdoc. I've weaned the Zyprexa out of my system (too much sedation and weight gain) and will be replacing it with the Wellbutrin. I'm hoping to have some luck with the combination of these 3 products (I also take Buspar for GAD).
I tried Provigil myself. It didn't do a thing for me. I could take 400 mg then turn around and take a three hour nap. I've also tried (without success) all the various vitamin and herbal supplements for energy.
Unfortunately, I had a hypertensive crisis back in the early 80's while taking an MAOI (a brain hemorrhage that put me in the hospital for a month) so I'm off them for life. Admittedly, I didn't follow the restrictions to the letter a most likely caused my own problem.
Bottom line, I guess I just wanted to let you know that I had no increase in energy at 150 mg of the Effexor but noticed a marked improvement at 300mg.
Good Luck!
Charm
Posted by King Vultan on August 6, 2004, at 16:43:08
In reply to Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
Sorry, I did not see that you had already tried Provigil. If you had trouble with Ritalin, the amphetamines would also be out, but Parnate still might be worth a try as long as you don't go beyond the recommended dosage (tolerance can also occur with Parnate, but the chance of this happening is quite a bit lower than it is with a true stimulant).
As for other possibilities, I found the tricyclics desipramine and protriptyline (Vivactil) to be quite energizing. I really can't recommend Vivactil because of its severe anticholinergic effects--there are people who can tolerate it, but I and at least one other person here found it to be brutal. Desipramine is not as stimulating but has much more tolerable side effects. These two drugs are selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors and don't really do much with dopamine, but norepinephrine is associated with increased energy and a reduced need for sleep. Part of the action of the Schedule II stimulants is to release norepinephrine as well as dopamine--the norepinephrine does play a considerable role in the stimulant effect.
Todd
Posted by Ktemene on August 7, 2004, at 2:44:53
In reply to Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
> Can someone tell me which meds increase dopamine and are legal in the U.S.?
>
> I'm currently on Wellbutrin and Effexor. I think more dopamine is what I need for my dysthymia, daytime sleepiness, and low motivation.
>
> I have been on Wellbutrin (350 mg) for the last several months but was still tired and low in motivation. So, my pdoc added Effexor. I have been on it for a month (1st week @ 75mg and since then 150 mg). Effexor was supposed to give me more energy, but so far I think it is making me more tired - maybe because I always wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall back asleep.
>
> Provigil and Ritalin have not worked for me in the past (I developed a quick tolerance), so my pdoc is reluctant to try another stimulant. I've even tried ginseng, ginko, and vitamin B for energy, but these don't work.
>
>
You might try Selegiline, although it is a bit of a long shot. However, some people do find it very activating. One poster on this board wrote that after she took her first 10 mg dose of Selegiline she felt such a burst of energy that she went for a ten-mile run. I didn't do that, but it did stay up for 48 hours straight after my first 5 mg dose, without any ill effects. I have taken Effexor, Wellbutrin, Strattera, Provigil and Adderall but none of them has been as effective in eliminating my excessive daytime sleepiness and fatigue as Selegiline- and I only take 5 mg. At a dosage lower than 10 mg per day Selegiline is highly preferential for MAO-B, so it would certainly target your dopamine system without requiring you to go on a MAOI diet. As always, YMMV.
Posted by gromit on August 8, 2004, at 4:22:10
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by Ktemene on August 7, 2004, at 2:44:53
> You might try Selegiline, although it is a bit of a long shot. However, some people do find it very activating. One poster on this board wrote that after she took her first 10 mg dose of Selegiline she felt such a burst of energy that she went for a ten-mile run. I didn't do that, but it did stay up for 48 hours straight after my first 5 mg dose, without any ill effects. I have taken Effexor, Wellbutrin, Strattera, Provigil and Adderall but none of them has been as effective in eliminating my excessive daytime sleepiness and fatigue as Selegiline- and I only take 5 mg. At a dosage lower than 10 mg per day Selegiline is highly preferential for MAO-B, so it would certainly target your dopamine system without requiring you to go on a MAOI diet. As always, YMMV.
>
I've been reading alot about low dose Selegiline and I'm not clear if you can take it along with an SSRI. Assuming I can get my doc to go along with it I'd like to give it a try.
Posted by Ktemene on August 9, 2004, at 5:07:23
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by gromit on August 8, 2004, at 4:22:10
> > You might try Selegiline, although it is a bit of a long shot. However, some people do find it very activating. One poster on this board wrote that after she took her first 10 mg dose of Selegiline she felt such a burst of energy that she went for a ten-mile run. I didn't do that, but it did stay up for 48 hours straight after my first 5 mg dose, without any ill effects. I have taken Effexor, Wellbutrin, Strattera, Provigil and Adderall but none of them has been as effective in eliminating my excessive daytime sleepiness and fatigue as Selegiline- and I only take 5 mg. At a dosage lower than 10 mg per day Selegiline is highly preferential for MAO-B, so it would certainly target your dopamine system without requiring you to go on a MAOI diet. As always, YMMV.
> >
> I've been reading alot about low dose Selegiline and I'm not clear if you can take it along with an SSRI. Assuming I can get my doc to go along with it I'd like to give it a try.
>
>Since very little MAO-A is inhibited until you get above the 10 mg dose level, there should be no problem with taking low dose Selegiline with an SSRI. There have been a couple of studies on the interaction of citalopram and fluoxetine with Selegiline, and little or no interaction was found in both studies. I have lost the fluoxetine-selegiline study link, but I will put the link to the citalopram-selegiline study here: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/citalseleg.htm
Remember that a strong antidepressant response to low dose Selegiline is uncommon. Atypical depressives with excessive daytime sleepiness and anhedonia would probably get a better response from Parnate. Once the Selegiline patch comes out, Selegiline may be the first port of call for MAOIs, but until then Parnate and Nardil are likelier candidates.
Good luck!
Posted by Waki on August 10, 2004, at 6:36:21
In reply to Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
I take welbutrin xl and have benefits, but wellbutrin sr did nothing. Wellbutrin increases dopamine and norepinephrine. The more wellbutrin I took persay 400 mg I was feeling speeded. We attributed it that i was receiving more benifits of norepinephrine then dopamine.
I tried provigal and concerta with no response. this last week we are trying dexedrine which is like Adderal from what i understand. The Concerta is a longer half life of the ritlan from what i understand. Concerta and dexedrine stimulate dopamine in different ways.
All of my ratings (wekly tests how i feel) indicate i need more dopamine. The research department is going to keep giving me dopamine stimulators until we are successful and my ratings improve.
my most lost time was either not giving certain meds a chance or giving the bad ones too long of a chance. its s fine line, but a very good p-doc IMO treats meds like a card game. He knows when to "hold em, knows went to fold em and walk away".
Posted by gromit on August 10, 2004, at 7:20:11
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » gromit, posted by Ktemene on August 9, 2004, at 5:07:23
> > I've been reading alot about low dose Selegiline and I'm not clear if you can take it along with an SSRI. Assuming I can get my doc to go along with it I'd like to give it a try.
> >
> >
>
> Since very little MAO-A is inhibited until you get above the 10 mg dose level, there should be no problem with taking low dose Selegiline with an SSRI. There have been a couple of studies on the interaction of citalopram and fluoxetine with Selegiline, and little or no interaction was found in both studies. I have lost the fluoxetine-selegiline study link, but I will put the link to the citalopram-selegiline study here: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/citalseleg.htm
>
> Remember that a strong antidepressant response to low dose Selegiline is uncommon. Atypical depressives with excessive daytime sleepiness and anhedonia would probably get a better response from Parnate. Once the Selegiline patch comes out, Selegiline may be the first port of call for MAOIs, but until then Parnate and Nardil are likelier candidates.
> Good luck!So you maintain biopsychiatry.com?
Atypical depression with EDS and anhedonia seems to describe me very well, toss in a little social anxiety. I have been considering Parnate but am hesitant because my diet consists primarily of homebrewed beer and pizza.
My doc claimed he hadn't heard about the patch and didn't seem to think it would eliminate the MAOI diet restrictions. I suppose if it is approved he will become aware soon enough.
Thanks for your response and the great site!
Posted by KaraS on August 10, 2004, at 10:02:49
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by Waki on August 10, 2004, at 6:36:21
> I take welbutrin xl and have benefits, but wellbutrin sr did nothing. Wellbutrin increases dopamine and norepinephrine. The more wellbutrin I took persay 400 mg I was feeling speeded. We attributed it that i was receiving more benifits of norepinephrine then dopamine.
>
> I tried provigal and concerta with no response. this last week we are trying dexedrine which is like Adderal from what i understand. The Concerta is a longer half life of the ritlan from what i understand. Concerta and dexedrine stimulate dopamine in different ways.
>
> All of my ratings (wekly tests how i feel) indicate i need more dopamine. The research department is going to keep giving me dopamine stimulators until we are successful and my ratings improve.
>
> my most lost time was either not giving certain meds a chance or giving the bad ones too long of a chance. its s fine line, but a very good p-doc IMO treats meds like a card game. He knows when to "hold em, knows went to fold em and walk away".
That's interesting that you reacted well to welbutrin xl but wellbutrin sr did nothing for you. I wonder what could possibly explain that. Does you doctor have any explanation?
Posted by WAKI on August 10, 2004, at 12:36:43
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » Waki, posted by KaraS on August 10, 2004, at 10:02:49
No he did not know why. We were at wits end that nothing was working. He recomended I search a Medical university with some newer up to date findings.
In the mean time he said we have trycilics to try or this new wellbutrin that came out. He did say the XL had a longer half life.
I took it and it was amazing. I kid you not. The next day I got my fat butt off the couch and went to the gym. That same day I threw away all the food crap I had in the house. I threw it away because I felt different. I felt energized and I felt in my heart I did not need poor quality food to get me through the day.
It's really strange a drug could have a impact on somebody so drastic. I could care less if part of it was placebo and part was a chemical balance or if all of it was a chemical balance result.
What i do know is I have not stopped excercising and have continued to eat good food.
My body is going through some extreme chemical changes. I can safely guess that 5 years ago, I could drink 23 beers in one sitting and feel a buzz that was equivlant of lets say a 6 pack when I was in college.
Some friends and I made a pack one night we will never drink that much again. The next two years after that night, I probably drank 3 beers a week if that.
For the next 2 years I probably darnk 1 beer every month.
This last year have not had any beer.
A couple Sundays ago I was with some friends in a pub and I had one of them O'dools non alcohol drinks, Well it has 1/2 of 1% alcohol. About half way through that O'dools, which is nearly nothing I was feeling really tipsy.
Obviously i am not going to even drink an O'dools again.
I know this is a long way of explaining what I'm going through.
But my point is my cravings have become totally opposite and clean.
I can only attribute it to some type of biochemical changes I'm going through.
The only biochemicals I'm changing are these medications they have me on.
It's really sad. My father used to show me pictures of him when he was younger. He was good looking athetlic, just a all around social and friendly good guy. My mom told me he started changing for the worse when he was in his early 20's.
I started to change for the worse in my early 20's.
Well my dad never pulled out of like I did. I lost him at the age I am approaching in 6 years.
The poor guy never had a chance. Back then they just thought people were lazy, un sociable, moody and had no drive.
My mom was constantly telling me I was becomming just like my father. It drove me bonkers because although I loved my father I promised myself i would always stay productive, happy and healthy as I was growing up.
My mother just recently had a long talk with me. She told me she was telling her friends I was not the son she knew. She said she did not know who I had became or why. She said my entire family wondered what ever happend to me.
Well then she said she had been telling all her friends she got her son back. All her friends have been telling me how she is talking about me all the time now as if i had died and came back.
It's kind of a strange thing this depression thing is. You just don't know how bad it is until you feel good just one time.
If you never feel good, how can one know how they are supposed to feel?
They should be teaching this stuff in school.
People need to know that if they become somebody who is not a proud productive person they need to see help.
One would think that insurance companys would initiate people having thier lives evaluated.
I'm just rambling I know. But I just lost 25 years, lost everybody who loved me for 25 years. No all of a sudden one damn pill gives it all back.
There is something wrong that my father died from this illness, I was about dead and insurance companys barely acknowledge it.
If I ran the health care system in this country I would put depression at the top of the list.
I just know it in my heart that all the strokes, heart attacks, alcoholism, over weight, smoking, crimes from bad tempers, and who knows what other crimes.
Since I started to feel better I am getting more and more frustrated with how much loss there is.
I guess it would be more productive of me to contact washington and let them know whats going on. Who knows maybe this was all mean to be and this is my purpose.
I will have to look further in this, because it's not giving people a fair chance at life.
Posted by KaraS on August 10, 2004, at 22:41:16
In reply to Re: Getting Well: Meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by WAKI on August 10, 2004, at 12:36:43
I'm glad things have worked out for you. I have lost many, many years myself. Hopefully I will be on the other end of it soon as you are. I would welcome the luxury to look back from a position of health - even though I know that I'd be feeling the anger that you're feeling now.
Stay happy and healthy.
Kara
Posted by craig getty on August 12, 2004, at 5:18:22
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » craig getty, posted by King Vultan on August 6, 2004, at 16:43:08
Thanks to everyone for all your responses. I think my next step will be to add either Selgeline or Adderrall to the Wellbutrin SR.
I think in my initial post I forgot to mention that I had previously tried Nardil and Parnate. Not to discourage anyone from trying either - this is more of an fyi - but Nardil stopped working after 6 months even with ever increasing doses, which then just added to the the weight gain, sexual side effects, and tiredness (even with Provigil). Parnate did nothing at all. (But remember everyone's different).
As a side note, during this past week on vacation I tried a couple of medicine adjustments. I stopped Effexor a week ago, and went from 400 to 300 mg. of Wellbutrin SR. I still think I need something else for energy and motivation, but I have felt the following benefits (which I think are mainly due to stopping Effexor): I am less tired during the day; I no longer experience a scary rapid heart beat; I have less anxiety and have not had to take the .25 mg Klonopin that I occassionally take.
Unfortunately for my girlfriend, I still talk and yell in my sleep.......
Incidentally, I stopped my 150 mg. a day of Effexor almost cold turkey without any withdrawal. I took 2 days of 75 mg., then 1 day of half a 75 mg. pill, then no Effexor at all for the last 6 days.
sorry for the long post. i'll keep ya posted on future changes....
cg
Posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2004, at 10:10:43
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » craig getty, posted by King Vultan on August 6, 2004, at 16:43:08
Adderall and dextroamphetamine seem to work much different than ritalin. Also recently I tried focalin. At first I hated it, upset my tummy and doesn't last as long as adderall. But you can take it with food so it doesn't upset you tummy and I slept better when taking it. Adderall is still my choice though.
Hope this helps :)
Blondegirl47
Posted by ravenstorm on August 16, 2004, at 11:13:25
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » King Vultan, posted by blondegirl47 on August 14, 2004, at 10:10:43
This may sound strange, but on another board I post on, several people indicated that they got more energy from XL than SR. I had that experience myself: SR makes me tired and XL gave me energy. Unfortunately I can't take the XL because it really upsets my stomach.
Maybe you could try XL?
Posted by craig getty on August 17, 2004, at 4:25:15
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by ravenstorm on August 16, 2004, at 11:13:25
> This may sound strange, but on another board I post on, several people indicated that they got more energy from XL than SR. I had that experience myself: SR makes me tired and XL gave me energy. Unfortunately I can't take the XL because it really upsets my stomach.
>
> Maybe you could try XL?Thanks. Do you know the difference in the half life of XL versus SR? What is the address of the Wellbutrin board?
Posted by researcher437 on September 5, 2004, at 16:32:24
In reply to Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by craig getty on August 5, 2004, at 23:04:03
> Can someone tell me which meds increase dopamine and are legal in the U.S.?
>
> I'm currently on Wellbutrin and Effexor. I think more dopamine is what I need for my dysthymia, daytime sleepiness, and low motivation.
>
> I have been on Wellbutrin (350 mg) for the last several months but was still tired and low in motivation. So, my pdoc added Effexor. I have been on it for a month (1st week @ 75mg and since then 150 mg). Effexor was supposed to give me more energy, but so far I think it is making me more tired - maybe because I always wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall back asleep.
>
> Provigil and Ritalin have not worked for me in the past (I developed a quick tolerance), so my pdoc is reluctant to try another stimulant. I've even tried ginseng, ginko, and vitamin B for energy, but these don't work.
>
Psychostimulants (adderall.dextroamphetamine,ritalin) typically increase dopamine levels;however there is a danger of addiction.Strattera increase dopamine in the mesocortical tract but much less so in the nucleus acumbens;
less danger of addiction, but will not make you feel better either.Try adding some of the neuromodulators(Piracetam,Aniracetam,Pramiracetam)along with centrophenoxime.
Supplements that are known to increase dopamine are L-Thyrosine ,NADH,L-theanine,
CDP-Choline,yohimbine,Phophatidylserine.Selegiline 5mg twice a day prevents the breakdown of dopamine but BEWARE ADVERSE INTERACTIONS with drugs or foods.
I have dysthymia,but what works for me may not work for you,due to biological variation.
Here is what works for me:
Selegiline 15 mg before breakfast
Provigil 200 mg before breakdast
NADH 5 mg before breakfast
Piracetam 1600 mg twice a day
Aniracetam 750mg twice a day
Centrophenoxine 3 a day
L-theanine 600 mg a day
Yohimbine 5 mg a day
Picamillon 3 a day
MethylPhenidate 20 mg if I feel sleepy in the afternoon
Alprazolam 1 mg at bedtimePramiracetam helps against apathy but is currently unavailable for the most part.
(I don't take thyrosine because of a strong history of prostate cancer in my family;induction of thyroxine hydroxylase may promote cancer growth)
I also avoid excess carbs because a high carb diet promotes increased serotonin
This is a high power dopamine regimen;I know I am taking too much if I start talking too much(I am naturally a very quiet guy).
In spite of all that Dopamine I still have difficulty with boring daily chores such as cleaning or doing dishes.Pramiracetam seems to be the only thing that helps me with those but I am out of PramiracetamLikely side-effect of this regimen is dizziness at the beginning;one needs to decrease the dose if that happens.
There should be no problem mixing selegiline and Wellbutrin;however Efexor has some SSRI properties
and combination with selegiline could lead to serotonin syndrome.
Wellbutrin and selegiline did not work for me so i dropped the Wellbutrin and went to the racetams.Make sure you know what you're doing when taking meds and supplements.
Disclaimer
This is only given as information NOT as recommendation.
researcher437
Posted by iris2 on September 6, 2004, at 12:11:07
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by researcher437 on September 5, 2004, at 16:32:24
> Psychostimulants (adderall.dextroamphetamine,ritalin) typically increase dopamine levels;however there is a danger of addiction.
> Try adding some of the neuromodulators(Piracetam,Aniracetam,Pramiracetam)along with centrophenoxime.
> Supplements that are known to increase dopamine are L-Thyrosine ,NADH,L-theanine,
> CDP-Choline,yohimbine,Phophatidylserine.
>
> Selegiline 5mg twice a day prevents the breakdown of dopamine but BEWARE ADVERSE INTERACTIONS with drugs or foods.
> I have dysthymia,but what works for me may not work for you,due to biological variation.
> Here is what works for me:
> Selegiline 15 mg before breakfast
> Provigil 200 mg before breakdast
> NADH 5 mg before breakfast
> Piracetam 1600 mg twice a day
> Aniracetam 750mg twice a day
> Centrophenoxine 3 a day
> L-theanine 600 mg a day
> Yohimbine 5 mg a day
> Picamillon 3 a day
> MethylPhenidate 20 mg if I feel sleepy in the afternoon
> Alprazolam 1 mg at bedtime
>
> Pramiracetam helps against apathy but is currently unavailable for the most part.
> (I don't take thyrosine because of a strong history of prostate cancer in my family;induction of thyroxine hydroxylase may promote cancer growth)
> I also avoid excess carbs because a high carb diet promotes increased serotonin
> This is a high power dopamine regimen;I know I am taking too much if I start talking too much(I am naturally a very quiet guy).
> In spite of all that Dopamine I still have difficulty with boring daily chores such as cleaning or doing dishes.Pramiracetam seems to be the only thing that helps me with those but I am out of PramiracetamI take Ritalin. It is the only thing that gets me motivated to get out of bed in the morning. It does little else but make me talk incessantly. I would not say it much for mood. I have no energy or motivation to do everyday chores like ckeaning or doing dishes. They generally do not get done. Someone comes to do them for me every once in a while. I hate the mess.
Any suggestions?
irene
>
Posted by MindReseacher on September 8, 2004, at 3:36:58
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by researcher437 on September 5, 2004, at 16:32:24
Researcher437, sounded a bit like my posts LOL. Nice post. Im also researching this topic. I just posted one a few minutes ago.
As you stated, for information only. Iv been taking adderall 30mg 2x daily, but i know i need a third dose, due to the fact it wears off in like 5 hrs. But, what can you do.
Nootropics look promising. First, Yes, psychostimulants, such as amphetamines release dopamine, primarily via Nucleus Accummbens. The brains reward center, and also can cause addiction or dependancy. But my ADD has dramatically improved almost 100 percent.
Staterra, seems more like Desipramine, a norepinephrine reuptake. Iv tried desipramine, and has minimal or null effects on motivation or ADD.
Im looking into trying Neuromodulators (aniracetam, Piracetam, oxiracitam ) But alot of these are primarily for memory, alzhimers, demetia.
Supplements as you listed. L-Tyrosine (500mg) taken on empty stomach with Vit b-6 and Vit C in am. Phosphatydylserine increases dopamine levels. L-Theanine also may increase dopamine along with Gabaenergic properties.
Another substance called Mucuna Prurriens (15%L-Dopa) is touted to increase dopamine levels, studies show may increase dopamine better than the actual drug. But i believe L-dopa needs a carrier which at the moment i cant recall. NADH also sounds promising. Good choice!
CDP-Choline , primarily for memory, may effect dopamine. Unsure though. Yohimbine may increae dopamine, but primarily Is a NE Blockade. Some research states it acts like a mild MAO like St.Johns Wart , But both claims i dont really believe, or if you ate cheese with them, i believe you would be in some trouble.Your regiment does seem very interesting and worth a try. Careful with MAOI's which i am reading into more. Kinda like my cheese!
Welbutrin , well, some research states it does not block dopamine to an extent, moresoe norepinephrine. But it is being used for ADD/ADHD for alternatives for amphetamines/Ritalin.
In my opinion,and not to say your regiment is wrong, actually is very promising, is if one is perscribed Adderall, dexedrine, Ritalin, Or Dysoxin, Take them as perscribed without abusing them, by snorting them, or doubling dosages, altough i must add i did take an extra dose because im up 18 hrs a day, an needed that 3rd dose, but after 1-2 months, amphetamine holiday for a few days to week is what i did, and worked well, except next time i am not going to just stop adderall stone cold, and drink coffee. I will replace it with something that will keep me above water.
While taking these meds, i dont see a problem with amino acids precursors, (l-tyrosine, L-theanine- NaHD , Phosyphytidlserine, ect.) I feel these precursors will replenish the loss of dopamine from the amphetamines.
MaoI honestly I dont know enough about to state a claim, but may be worth a shot, but not until all medication is out of your system, and proper diet, but i read that they are or have come out with a selegiline patch, which buy this method, you dont have to follow any specific diet.
I also take 1-2mg of klonopin , 10mg of Lexapro, and Suboxone 8-16mg, (suboxone is for opiate cravings). My doc told me a large percentage of Drug abusers have ADD. But now he persribed me Adderall/Klonopin which is and can be abused. But in my case, he knows my backround, and opiates are my primary drug of choice. I take Klonopin as persribed, as i do adderall, escept for an extra dose if needed, never exceeding 30mg at a time.
write back Researcher437, let me know how your regiment helps you with motivation, social interactions or ADD if you have it.
MindReseacher
Posted by djinnicht on September 8, 2004, at 14:31:40
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by researcher437 on September 5, 2004, at 16:32:24
sounds like an andrenergic state, but what do i know? you're not on a *mood stabiliser* are you? why, the first action of any good AED is to deplete NE.(joy.)(not.)
assuming you're not, reboxetine is the only NARI i've ever heard of (Edronax)/is available at xxx. there is one in Remeron, plus it blocks the nuisance receptors 5HT3/2C. &u get phfat.phfun!(not)
i know what increases DA in the nucleus accumbens:bioequivalent testosterone. this is true regardless of gender. those DA neurons in the NA are studded with T/DHT/E1. i took part in a 'depression' study by a researching endocrinologist in another country, this wouldn't happen in the usa of course,wwhere endos only do thyroid/diabetes, and i have never felt better, nice libido for once, increased self esteem, yada yada.[except when i was truly depressed, then it was parnate+real ADDeral 20mg bid.][its octopamine that bottoms out or zooms your BP, mine disappeared.]no libido et al but i felt normal, after self treating the myriad initial efx on vitals, which stablised. **if it were me**, i would do a course of rebox first,(maybe) then androgel (dose too low for most males caveat).
the above is not medical advice and is not to be construed as anything but biochemists/psychopharmacologists "drivel" to be disregarded immediately.
dJ
ps---the nootropics post has some nice neuroprotectives in it but is way too DA precursor loading for me, and the glutumate drug would drive me bonkers. also disagree about carbe=serotonin. carbs somehow allow l-tryph selectively to cross the BBB. i make over amt serotonin also MAKES ME TOO AWAKE WHICH I HATE but you must have some; l-tryph>5HTp?>serotonin>melatonin. i lower 5HT with tianeptine,class SRE (Stablon, servier pharmacuticals)
disclaimer:again, just more R&D "drivel" not to be construed as medical advice but denounced as sophistry, maybe call daddy Bob.
the person wants DA all person has to do is go suck a fag, like all the schizophrenics do, ja?
dJ
Posted by djinnicht on September 9, 2004, at 1:19:39
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » researcher437, posted by iris2 on September 6, 2004, at 12:11:07
> > Psychostimulants (adderall.dextroamphetamine,ritalin) typically increase dopamine levels;however there is a danger of addiction.
>
> > Try adding some of the neuromodulators(Piracetam,Aniracetam,Pramiracetam)along with centrophenoxime.
> > Supplements that are known to increase dopamine are L-Thyrosine ,NADH,L-theanine,
> > CDP-Choline,yohimbine,Phophatidylserine.
> >
> > Selegiline 5mg twice a day prevents the breakdown of dopamine but BEWARE ADVERSE INTERACTIONS with drugs or foods.
> > I have dysthymia,but what works for me may not work for you,due to biological variation.
> > Here is what works for me:
> > Selegiline 15 mg before breakfast---MAOI precations at this dose
> > Provigil 200 mg before breakdast----glutumate
> > NADH 5 mg before breakfast
> > Piracetam 1600 mg twice a day--gold stnd, love it
> > Aniracetam 750mg twice a day--should <--above
> > Centrophenoxine 3 a day--i believe in lucidril too, for plaque but its DMAE attached to ? i can't bear to take over 250 mg daily.
> > L-theanine 600 mg a day
> > Yohimbine 5 mg a day.--is that why men take that.
> > Picamillon 3 a day-------GABA
> > MethylPhenidate 20 mg if I feel sleepy in the afternoon---ritalin, the FDA version of cocaine
> > Alprazolam 1 mg at bedtime--clears in 2 hours. more natural sleep, any interest? that Sonata is such a technical advancement.
> >
> > Pramiracetam helps against apathy but is currently unavailable for the most part.
> > (I don't take thyrosine because of a strong history of prostate cancer in my family;induction of thyroxine hydroxylase may promote cancer growth)
> > I also avoid excess carbs because a high carb diet promotes increased serotonin /i don't think so. a carb loading selectively allows l-tryp to cross the BBB. an AM high protein/low glycemic meal should wake you up.
> > This is a high power dopamine regimen;I know I am taking too much if I start talking too much(I am naturally a very quiet guy).*pressured speech*, eh?
> > In spite of all that Dopamine I still have difficulty with boring daily chores such as cleaning or doing dishes.Pramiracetam seems to be the only thing that helps me with those but I am out of Pramiracetam
>
> I take Ritalin. It is the only thing that gets me motivated to get out of bed in the morning. It does little else but make me talk incessantly. I would not say it much for mood. I have no energy or motivation to do everyday chores like ckeaning or doing dishes. They generally do not get done. Someone comes to do them for me every once in a while. I hate the mess.
>
> Any suggestions?
"I have dysthymia"
"[...]talk incessantly[...]"
"[...]I have no energy or motivation to do everyday chores like ckeaning or doing dishes. They generally do not get done.[...]"your neuroprotectives are great, everyone should do it. but you are taking some that inversely IMO effect others. but why quibble.
you asked for suggestions.
don't cheat yourself out of the deeper stages of sleep and enough hourage on the pillow. 1.
sleep lab? you could have an occult disorder. 2.
[dysthymia is now considered part of the big bipolar spectrum umbrella. soon we'll all be under it. hmm...] could you have a "subsyndromal"
(dare i say it) depression?
hmm..for dysthymia:
xxx 3.
best kiwi,
dJ
>
> irene
> >
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 3:30:58
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » researcher437, posted by djinnicht on September 8, 2004, at 14:31:40
> reboxetine is the only NARI i've ever heard of (Edronax)/is available at xxx.
Please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US medication that hasn't been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by MindReseacher on September 9, 2004, at 6:23:39
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by djinnicht on September 9, 2004, at 1:19:39
Boy, ya got alot of meds, esp nootropics. Which i respect the board and wont discuss, but briefly some sound very promising.
IF you think about it, Adderall and Dexedrine and Ritalin, are schedule 2. Moreso addictive , but work for majority of ADD problems, compared to other stimulants.
I can attest, from 1 week without adderall, laying in bed, no energy, nothing, just sleeping and eating, working out barely, and after my first dose of adderall, a few hours later i felt like a new man. I mean i actually (and was not intending to) stayed up most of the night, well because like i said that day before i slept until 6pm. So, i was up practically the whole night and next day, still working on my research, focused, happy. THe only problem is, sometimes you DONT want to go to sleep. Your brain is like keep working, but you are run down, so anymore, i make sure i get at least 6 hrs of sleep.
From what iv been reading dexadrine is even better, More mental stimulation, better for ADD, and least amount of anxiety and such. I would like for my doc to switch me to dexedrine spanules which last long time. Maybe 2 doses of 15mg. Or even one, depending on the burn out.
But adderall has been very very helpful, in many aspects of my Add, Depression, and social interaction. AND im not high. I may "feel good mentally, but is there anything wrong with that!, as long as i dont go over my dosage. Too bad adderall wears off fast, because i do get shorted, and i may try and just not take any for a good part of the morning, when i dont need it. Becuase then i fall about a week to 10 day short if i take a 3rd dose, even 15mg.
I dont see a problem with my doctor persribing me 10 or 20mg for a night/evening dose. THat would work. I believe the theropeutic dose is around 60mg, but i hear of some that do take up to 90mg, just as some ritalin users.
But having about 20 ritalin 30mgs for when i do run short of adderall, is and can be a positive thing, due to a break in the amphetamine cycle, and i wont be a zombie for a week. Yet , i tried almost every thing, naturally, nothing helped the fatigue and tiredness amphetamines cause when coming off.
I switched to Ritalin 2 x daily 30mgs, and still didnt feel right, but it kept me on my toes. But i decided, i must take at least 3-5 days off of all p-stimulants, before I start up the adderall, and boy did i sleep. Coffee, ephedrine, L-tyrosine, did nothing much. I may be a bit dependant on adderall, but it really has positivly improved my life. So if the outcome is good, well i see no problem.
I must have went through numerous medications, mainly ssris and some TCI's, and nothing. But after trial and error, i was giving up on perscribed meds and using illicite drugs for my mental anquish, and what not. But come to beleive a problem with my dopamine system, may be something to look into, instead of good ol serotonin. Tried 4 ssri's , 3 TCI's, Natural stimulants, Welbutrin, but i cant say much cause i was using and it made me very anxious, esp when i came down, but, I want to say my depression, Social Phobia/Anxiety, Motivation skills basically stemmed from ADD. And about 6 yrs ago, my first Psycologist told me i may have that, and i laughed at him, saying no way. But never listened, or did anything about it, and spend alot of bucks on doctors who didnt know much or didnt want to bother to take the time and try to diagnose my problem, although yes, i was using drugs, but the symptoms always persisted, even when i was clean.I want to give my opinon, first this board is excellent. Some other boards, people get a little hasty when you say drugs. Second, some very knowledgeable people on here, and im willing to offer what i can in return for any advise of others on here.
I dont know if my posts are too long but ill try and shorten them up, maybe post more, but if i were to pick the top 3 pharmaceutical Dopamine releasers, I would have to say Dex/Adderall/Ritalin A step below maoi's such as paranate or selegine, and nootropics, which i cant name. But the former author hit some on the head. Natural dopamine precusors, id go with L-Tyrosine, Mucuna Prurriens, and NADH. Last, for some, Throw some welbutrin in there or straterra, which may help some sypmtoms of ADD, but i believe those 2 act more on the norepinephrine system.
MINDreseach
Posted by pablo1 on September 10, 2004, at 11:19:23
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy?, posted by MindReseacher on September 9, 2004, at 6:23:39
Is that true that we aren't allowed to discuss non-FDA approved nootropics? I don't think so.
I've recently had great results from amisulpride and to a lesser extent amineptine the latter has more wierd side effects and is shorter acting, more abusable but amisulpride is fairly harmless from what I can tell.
I also had sleep problems from effexor & wellbutrin & stimulants just made me more tense & overfocused which is my tendency anyways. I figure that was the norepenephrine I've got too much of. Coming off effexor I was almost manic on a dopamine rush, I was so happy to have my feelings back & able to really feel pleasure though I didn't know I was missing it while on.
Amisulpride gives me a sweet feeling, not anxious like the stimulants. It acts only on DA. At low doses it increases DA, at high doses it inhibits DA for schitzophrenics. I was taking low doses. It really seemed to help with motivation & was such a relief to actually feel good. I tried for a few weeks & am going to talk to my doc about getting it prescribed today (not optimistic).
Posted by iris2 on September 10, 2004, at 12:11:08
In reply to Re: Which meds increase dopamine/energy? » MindReseacher, posted by pablo1 on September 10, 2004, at 11:19:23
> Is that true that we aren't allowed to discuss non-FDA approved nootropics? I don't think so.
Her are the rules as posted:
Please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US:
prescription medication without a prescription or
medication that hasn't been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration.
Both activities appear to be illegal. It's fine to discuss here the pros and cons of the medications, just not how to obtain them in those ways. In fact, this site should not be used to facilitate any illegal activities.You can discuss almost anything. Just do not exchange where to obtain or make the drugs not FDA approved. Or post a link to a sight with the information.
>
> I've recently had great results from amisulpride and to a lesser extent amineptine the latter has more wierd side effects and is shorter acting, more abusable but amisulpride is fairly harmless from what I can tell.
>
> Amisulpride gives me a sweet feeling, not anxious like the stimulants. It acts only on DA. At low doses it increases DA, at high doses it inhibits DA for schitzophrenics. I was taking low doses. It really seemed to help with motivation & was such a relief to actually feel good. I tried for a few weeks & am going to talk to my doc about getting it prescribed today (not optimistic).I am taking Amisulpride also. I do not think I have as good a result as you though. How much are you taking? I took Amineptine also with great results but now it does not work anymore. I might try it one more time with Amisulpride with it.
What exactly was your experience with Amineptine?
irene
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