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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by green willow on July 11, 2004, at 20:25:50
Have any of you had problems with Ambien? I have bad insomnia, and my sleep doc has had me alternating Ambien and Sonata every other night. All of a sudden I cannot sleep on the Sonata nights, except for about 1 hour 45 min. I think it is Ambien rebound. My doctor just said he cannot comment, but my pharmacist agreed with me. What do you guys think I should do, discontinue the Ambien and find something new to fight the insomnia, or take Ambien every night till it fizzles? Doctor had me try Zanaflex with the Sonata, also Traz with the Sonata. I still did not sleep on those nights. It is like I am wired to stay awake - a chemical high. I am convinced that Zanaflex is from the other side (hades) and Trazadone messes with my heart too much. Incidentally I am ill with auto-immune problems and also trying to recover from serious injuries. What are your thoughts? Have any of you been prescribed alternating Ambien and Sonata ? How have some of you weened off Ambien?
Posted by rvanson on July 11, 2004, at 21:07:13
In reply to HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by green willow on July 11, 2004, at 20:25:50
> Have any of you had problems with Ambien? I have bad insomnia, and my sleep doc has had me alternating Ambien and Sonata every other night. All of a sudden I cannot sleep on the Sonata nights, except for about 1 hour 45 min. I think it is Ambien rebound. My doctor just said he cannot comment, but my pharmacist agreed with me. What do you guys think I should do, discontinue the Ambien and find something new to fight the insomnia, or take Ambien every night till it fizzles? Doctor had me try Zanaflex with the Sonata, also Traz with the Sonata. I still did not sleep on those nights. It is like I am wired to stay awake - a chemical high. I am convinced that Zanaflex is from the other side (hades) and Trazadone messes with my heart too much. Incidentally I am ill with auto-immune problems and also trying to recover from serious injuries. What are your thoughts? Have any of you been prescribed alternating Ambien and Sonata ? How have some of you weened off Ambien?"
=======
If your doctor is not a Benzo-Phobic quack, I'd suggest a trial of Xanax or Klonopin. Perhap Ativan.
All of these meds work much better then Sonata or Ambien, IMPE.
Posted by chemist on July 11, 2004, at 22:43:03
In reply to HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by green willow on July 11, 2004, at 20:25:50
> Have any of you had problems with Ambien? I have bad insomnia, and my sleep doc has had me alternating Ambien and Sonata every other night. All of a sudden I cannot sleep on the Sonata nights, except for about 1 hour 45 min. I think it is Ambien rebound. My doctor just said he cannot comment, but my pharmacist agreed with me. What do you guys think I should do, discontinue the Ambien and find something new to fight the insomnia, or take Ambien every night till it fizzles? Doctor had me try Zanaflex with the Sonata, also Traz with the Sonata. I still did not sleep on those nights. It is like I am wired to stay awake - a chemical high. I am convinced that Zanaflex is from the other side (hades) and Trazadone messes with my heart too much. Incidentally I am ill with auto-immune problems and also trying to recover from serious injuries. What are your thoughts? Have any of you been prescribed alternating Ambien and Sonata ? How have some of you weened off Ambien?
hello there, chemist here....alternating nights with ambien and sonata sounds silly to me, given the very short elimination half-life of ambien and ultra-short elimination half-life of sonata. in that you are awakening on the sonata nights but not the ambien nights, it would seem that your problem requires ambien every night. why don't you fly that by your doctor and see what she/he says? i would hold off on the benzos, as ambien (and sonata) provides restful sleep and benzos deprive one of all the stages needed for a good night's rest. if ambien - up to 10 mg hs - does not work, try the benzos.....all the best, chemist
Posted by King Vultan on July 11, 2004, at 23:08:56
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems » green willow, posted by chemist on July 11, 2004, at 22:43:03
I agree with chemist--alternating between Sonata and Ambien doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the reasons he mentioned. My pdoc feels Ambien can be used every night because it is not on the receptor for an excessively long time. I might be doing that, but the Ambien is a $50 monthly copay on my stupid insurance. I happen to alternate between Halcion, which is only a $10 copay on my insurance, and Benadryl, which is obviously very cheap also. The Halcion frankly works much better; I do not believe the Benadryl would be doing an adequate job without the sleep/relaxation CD I use all night long. The reason for the sleep aids is that I take the MAOI Nardil, which gives me terrible insomnia.
Todd
Posted by crazychickuk on July 12, 2004, at 2:38:36
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by King Vultan on July 11, 2004, at 23:08:56
wat about remeron?
Posted by Bill LL on July 12, 2004, at 11:21:14
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by crazychickuk on July 12, 2004, at 2:38:36
I also agree with Chemist- to take Ambien every night. After a while, it might not be as effective. When that happens, maybe try Tylenol PM sometimes instead of the Ambien.
Posted by green willow on July 12, 2004, at 13:39:28
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by King Vultan on July 11, 2004, at 23:08:56
The sleep doc did mention I could try alternating between Ambien and Halcion, but I did not jump at that one. Please tell me more about Halcion.
As for benzos, he had me on klonopin from Oct. - March, in Dec. I had a serious accident which I blame on the klonopin, and actually it stopped working in about Dec. I had bad withdraw, took from late March to late May to get offf the stuff.
As for Remeron, benedryl, or tylenol p.m., they all have paradoxyl effects, and just leave me wired.
Posted by King Vultan on July 12, 2004, at 16:36:52
In reply to HELP! Bad Ambien problems » King Vultan, posted by green willow on July 12, 2004, at 13:39:28
> The sleep doc did mention I could try alternating between Ambien and Halcion, but I did not jump at that one. Please tell me more about Halcion.
> As for benzos, he had me on klonopin from Oct. - March, in Dec. I had a serious accident which I blame on the klonopin, and actually it stopped working in about Dec. I had bad withdraw, took from late March to late May to get offf the stuff.
> As for Remeron, benedryl, or tylenol p.m., they all have paradoxyl effects, and just leave me wired.
Halcion (triazolam) is basically an older version of Ambien, but it is a true benzodiazepine rather than being benzo-like as Ambien as. The half life of Halcion is very similar to that of Ambien, and I find it works pretty well for me at 0.125 mg/night. My prescription is for 0.25 mg pills, and I cut them in half, and seeing as though I only use Halcion every night, and it is only a $10 copay per 30 pills, the cost per month is virtually nothing.I had also asked my own pdoc about switching every other night between the Ambien and Halcion (because doing so would make the Ambien affordable, and I find Ambien more effective than Benadryl), and he expressed concern about that combination. I'm not sure exactly what he's thinking because he had said I could use the Ambien every night if I wanted to, but he appears to view the Halcion as more problematic. Your own doctor may have a different philosophy, and I am not an expert on sleep med combos and how much of an issue tolerance is in these meds with relatively short half lives.
Todd
Posted by King Vultan on July 12, 2004, at 19:34:02
In reply to Re: Halcion/Ambien tolerance issues » green willow, posted by King Vultan on July 12, 2004, at 16:36:52
Sorry, in paragraph one, I meant to say that I only use the Halcion every OTHER night (alternate with Benadryl). Brain hiccup.
When I picked up the Halcion prescription, my pharmacist expressed the opinion that this was one of the most powerful sleep aids available and that it was significantly stronger than Ambien. He also advised me to avoid combining it with alcohol or being under the inflence while taking it. I could still drink every other night, but since I've been getting so doggoned drowsy consuming alcohol since being on Nardil, anyway, I have decided to generally eliminate all use of alcohol. I might make an exception for a special occasion, but only if I weren't taking Halcion that night.
Todd
Posted by Laree on July 15, 2004, at 0:19:17
In reply to HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by green willow on July 11, 2004, at 20:25:50
I've been on both Ambien & Sonata at different time periods. I found Ambien to be more effective for me. As I understand it, they are very similar; however, Sonata seems to be the weaker of the two (at least to me). That may be at least part of the reason why you cannot sleep the nights you take the Sonata. It makes sense if you are alternating it with a more potent med (Ambien). I have also been on Zanaflex (up to 5/night) and it usually puts me out on moderate to high-end doses.
I develop tolerance on Ambien every time. I also developed tolerance on Sonata.
Has your doctor mentioned Seroquel to you? I too have bad insomnia; I've been on many meds that help with sleep (Valium, Xanax, Ativan, Serax, Klonopin, Zanaflex, Flexeril, Norflex, Elavil, Trazodone, Atarax, Ambien, Sonata...) & Seroquel was definitely the most potent 'sleep aid' for me. It knocked me out, big time. Like, made even 'fighting' sleep almost impossible. I cannot fathom staying awake on it (if you're not schizophrenic that is, which is it's on-label use).
You might want to ask your dr. about it--it's not scheduled, either, and you might be able to obtain samples of it (I did).
Best,
L.
> Have any of you had problems with Ambien? I have bad insomnia, and my sleep doc has had me alternating Ambien and Sonata every other night. All of a sudden I cannot sleep on the Sonata nights, except for about 1 hour 45 min. I think it is Ambien rebound. My doctor just said he cannot comment, but my pharmacist agreed with me. What do you guys think I should do, discontinue the Ambien and find something new to fight the insomnia, or take Ambien every night till it fizzles? Doctor had me try Zanaflex with the Sonata, also Traz with the Sonata. I still did not sleep on those nights. It is like I am wired to stay awake - a chemical high. I am convinced that Zanaflex is from the other side (hades) and Trazadone messes with my heart too much. Incidentally I am ill with auto-immune problems and also trying to recover from serious injuries. What are your thoughts? Have any of you been prescribed alternating Ambien and Sonata ? How have some of you weened off Ambien?
Posted by greenwillow on July 15, 2004, at 16:09:38
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems » green willow, posted by Laree on July 15, 2004, at 0:19:17
Tell me more about Seroquel, what class of drugs it is in, if its addicting, side effects, etc., so I can have more info before I see the sleep doc again. Thanks!
> I've been on both Ambien & Sonata at different time periods. I found Ambien to be more effective for me. As I understand it, they are very similar; however, Sonata seems to be the weaker of the two (at least to me). That may be at least part of the reason why you cannot sleep the nights you take the Sonata. It makes sense if you are alternating it with a more potent med (Ambien). I have also been on Zanaflex (up to 5/night) and it usually puts me out on moderate to high-end doses.
> I develop tolerance on Ambien every time. I also developed tolerance on Sonata.
> Has your doctor mentioned Seroquel to you? I too have bad insomnia; I've been on many meds that help with sleep (Valium, Xanax, Ativan, Serax, Klonopin, Zanaflex, Flexeril, Norflex, Elavil, Trazodone, Atarax, Ambien, Sonata...) & Seroquel was definitely the most potent 'sleep aid' for me. It knocked me out, big time. Like, made even 'fighting' sleep almost impossible. I cannot fathom staying awake on it (if you're not schizophrenic that is, which is it's on-label use).
> You might want to ask your dr. about it--it's not scheduled, either, and you might be able to obtain samples of it (I did).
> Best,
> L.
>
Posted by Patient on July 17, 2004, at 13:45:07
In reply to HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by green willow on July 11, 2004, at 20:25:50
> Have any of you had problems with Ambien? I have bad insomnia, and my sleep doc has had me alternating Ambien and Sonata every other night. All of a sudden I cannot sleep on the Sonata nights, except for about 1 hour 45 min. I think it is Ambien rebound. My doctor just said he cannot comment, but my pharmacist agreed with me. What do you guys think I should do, discontinue the Ambien and find something new to fight the insomnia, or take Ambien every night till it fizzles? Doctor had me try Zanaflex with the Sonata, also Traz with the Sonata. I still did not sleep on those nights. It is like I am wired to stay awake - a chemical high. I am convinced that Zanaflex is from the other side (hades) and Trazadone messes with my heart too much. Incidentally I am ill with auto-immune problems and also trying to recover from serious injuries. What are your thoughts? Have any of you been prescribed alternating Ambien and Sonata ? How have some of you weened off Ambien?
I've tried Ambien; 6 doses that my doctor gave me as samples last year. It helped to fall asleep quickly within a half hour to hour after taking it, but I would be wide awake in the wee hours, like 2 to 5 a.m. I've heard that Sonata and Ambien work great if you are the type of insomniac that can't fall asleep, but useless for those that fall asleep readily, but have frequent awakenings in the wee hours of the night. I'm the latter-I fall asleep easily enough, as long as there isn't any recent severe stressor, but wake up about 2-3 in the morning and can't go back to sleep until about 6 or so. I've tried trazodone at 12.5mg and it works excellent for helping me to fall asleep and stay asleep until it's time to get up. I've also tried 0.5mg lorazepam and it too works well. But, with traz and loraz I often felt groggy in the mornings or would end up sleeping in late-lorazepam will also cause a bit of imbalance for a few hours in the morning after arising. Good point about loraz is that I don't have dreams. (I often have disturbing dreams with recurrent themes: internal conflicts I believe.) I've tried melatonin. Sometimes it would help me sleep great, other times not.
Currently I am taking 250mg Epival E-C (divalproex sodium) after bkfst, and 40mg Celexa (citalopram) 6-8p.m. since Feb. '04. I slept well much of the time, but recently I have been awakening again in the middle of the night and began to resort to trazodone and lorazepam. I really didn't want to start taking these again for insmonia, so, I thought I'd give valerian a try. I bought some from Kroger's line and took 2 caplets at bedtime, as suggested. For the past two weeks I have been sleeping all the night through! No groggy feeling in the morning. I have also tried taking 3 caplets one night and it works just as well, and maybe just a slight bit of grogginess in morning, but it was still easy for me to get up at a decent hour.
Just a suggestion if the other medicines do not work for your type of insomnia. I haven't had any bad reactions to valerian, no drug reactions that I can tell.
Posted by LindaNYC on August 11, 2004, at 16:56:22
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems-try Valerian herb, posted by Patient on July 17, 2004, at 13:45:07
I have just gone through a very bad 3 day withdrawal from 10mg nightly of Ambien. I was on it for 3 months. I decided to quit taking it because I was having severe sensitivity to noise, a feeling of panic or anxiety, and suicidal thoughts. These symptoms appeared about 8 days earlier, and were worsening daily. I have been on 60mg/day of Prozac for depression for 12 years, and 30mg of Adderral/day for ADD for 5 years.
When I looked up "noise sensitivity" on Google, benzodiazepine withdrawal kept coming up as a possible cause. Since Ambien is closely related to these drugs, I thought perhaps it might be causing the new symptoms. So, although the information I found said dependency on Ambien was likely with prolonged use, and it should not be stopped suddenly, I decided to quit it "cold turkey" and tough it out.
The withdrawal symptoms were severe three nights ago, and have almost completely dissapeared, as have the original symptoms of noise sensitivity and depression. The withdrawel symptoms included frequent waking up (rebound insomnia), upset stomach and nausea, and a feeling of agitation. I cut my dose of Adderral to 10mg/day for these 3 days, as I was having the agitation.
In my opinion, Ambien withdrawal, or side effects due to dependency could be the cause. Particularly in patients being treated for depression, Ambien has been linked to feelings of increased depression or suicidal thoughts. Although no one on the board seems to have had my experience, perhaps that is due to their continual use of the drug. I know for the first 2.5 months I had no ill effects. It was great for insomnia. If the sensitivity to noise hadn't become so unbearable (I live in New York City so noise sensitivity is an obvious liability here), and the onset of a depressive episode hadn't occured, I would still be taking the Ambien.
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 2:33:54
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems, posted by LindaNYC on August 11, 2004, at 16:56:22
> I have just gone through a very bad 3 day withdrawal from 10mg nightly of Ambien. I was on it for 3 months. I decided to quit taking it because I was having severe sensitivity to noise, a feeling of panic or anxiety, and suicidal thoughts. These symptoms appeared about 8 days earlier, and were worsening daily. I have been on 60mg/day of Prozac for depression for 12 years, and 30mg of Adderral/day for ADD for 5 years.
>
> When I looked up "noise sensitivity" on Google, benzodiazepine withdrawal kept coming up as a possible cause. Since Ambien is closely related to these drugs, I thought perhaps it might be causing the new symptoms. So, although the information I found said dependency on Ambien was likely with prolonged use, and it should not be stopped suddenly, I decided to quit it "cold turkey" and tough it out.
>
> The withdrawal symptoms were severe three nights ago, and have almost completely dissapeared, as have the original symptoms of noise sensitivity and depression. The withdrawel symptoms included frequent waking up (rebound insomnia), upset stomach and nausea, and a feeling of agitation. I cut my dose of Adderral to 10mg/day for these 3 days, as I was having the agitation.
>
> In my opinion, Ambien withdrawal, or side effects due to dependency could be the cause. Particularly in patients being treated for depression, Ambien has been linked to feelings of increased depression or suicidal thoughts. Although no one on the board seems to have had my experience, perhaps that is due to their continual use of the drug. I know for the first 2.5 months I had no ill effects. It was great for insomnia. If the sensitivity to noise hadn't become so unbearable (I live in New York City so noise sensitivity is an obvious liability here), and the onset of a depressive episode hadn't occured, I would still be taking the Ambien.
>
>Sounds just like the symptoms I had when I stopped taking Ativan for sleep - so I agree with you that coming off of Ambien can be just like benzo withdrawal.
Posted by LindaNYC on August 13, 2004, at 13:50:11
In reply to Re: HELP! Bad Ambien problems » LindaNYC, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 2:33:54
I took Ativan for three weeks in 1996. My surgeon gave it to me after surgery. I didn't know anything about the drug, and assumed it must be for pain. In that period of time I had a 48 hour 'blackout' in which I had complete amnesia of all events that took place. My family told me I was fully awake, alert, and interacted with everyone, but I was very angry/hostile. I have no memory of any of the events. When it came time to stop the Ativan, I went through a 4 day withdrawal that was the worst drug-related experience I could even imagine. I did not sleep, even for 10 minutes, during that time. I was exhausted. I was shakey, crying, and felt a horrible sense of impending doom. It was probably ten times worse than the Ambien withdrawal. I am glad I will never make that mistake again.
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 16:42:17
In reply to Ambien and Ativan withdrawal, posted by LindaNYC on August 13, 2004, at 13:50:11
> I took Ativan for three weeks in 1996. My surgeon gave it to me after surgery. I didn't know anything about the drug, and assumed it must be for pain. In that period of time I had a 48 hour 'blackout' in which I had complete amnesia of all events that took place. My family told me I was fully awake, alert, and interacted with everyone, but I was very angry/hostile. I have no memory of any of the events. When it came time to stop the Ativan, I went through a 4 day withdrawal that was the worst drug-related experience I could even imagine. I did not sleep, even for 10 minutes, during that time. I was exhausted. I was shakey, crying, and felt a horrible sense of impending doom. It was probably ten times worse than the Ambien withdrawal. I am glad I will never make that mistake again.
Wow, that's awful. You seem to become as easily dependant on benzos as I do. My Ativan experience wasn't anywhere near as bad as yours though. When I did notice the symptoms, I went back on it and reduced very, very slowly and took something else to help me sleep. It wasn't much of a problem from that point on. We really do need to educate ourselves and become your own advocates. Drs. are only part of the solution. Education is the rest.
Posted by LindaNYC on August 16, 2004, at 10:10:17
In reply to Re: Ambien and Ativan withdrawal, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2004, at 16:42:17
I think you have me pegged with regards to oversensitivity to these drugs. If I was smarter about it, I probably would have tapered the dose slowly as you did to quit. But once I figure out I am having side effects or problems I just quit ASAP, because I want it out of me now! Thank you for your insight and response.
> Wow, that's awful. You seem to become as easily dependant on benzos as I do. My Ativan experience wasn't anywhere near as bad as yours though. When I did notice the symptoms, I went back on it and reduced very, very slowly and took something else to help me sleep. It wasn't much of a problem from that point on. We really do need to educate ourselves and become your own advocates. Drs. are only part of the solution. Education is the rest.
>
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 1:15:58
In reply to Re: Ambien and Ativan withdrawal, posted by LindaNYC on August 16, 2004, at 10:10:17
> I think you have me pegged with regards to oversensitivity to these drugs. If I was smarter about it, I probably would have tapered the dose slowly as you did to quit. But once I figure out I am having side effects or problems I just quit ASAP, because I want it out of me now! Thank you for your insight and response.
>I hope it didn't sound too preachy. Everyone's got to do it their own way - the way that works for them.
Posted by LindaNYC on August 18, 2004, at 12:00:22
In reply to Re: Ambien and Ativan withdrawal » LindaNYC, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 1:15:58
Not at all! You are right on the money. That's why boards like these are a lifesaver. There's a lot that the docs don't know yet about what the medications can do to us.
This is the end of the thread.
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