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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by mtdew on January 17, 2004, at 2:00:40
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION » LAURA777, posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 12, 2004, at 9:27:16
I've experienced a nice mood lift from opiates, but it seems to go away after only a few days of use, leaving only a blank stoned feeling. But perhaps I haven't tried it from a dark enough depression from which that would be an improvement.
By the way, Provigil is said to have a mild effect on dopamine, though the manufacturer downplays this (Shhhhhh). It ought to be fairly easy to get, too.
Posted by laura777 on January 21, 2004, at 8:22:42
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by JohnFromCalifornia on January 10, 2004, at 19:52:39
John , you post sounds like the typical response held by many in the field that researches opiates..
There are inferior opiates out there for treatment of depression in that they cause all of the things you mention ..
As far as going about feeling stoned and euphoric when taking a opiate , this is not the case with some of us ..
When I use to self medicate with opiates I did not run around feeling stoned or euphoric .
I finally felt alive and was able to function ..The fact that our meso limbic system is densely packed with opiate receptors and that this area is known to impact our ability to enjoy life says alot about what opiates can do .. Some of us are deficient in this area and life is just plain grey and we don't use these drugs to get high or mask depression ..
Depression can be because of mental issues stemming from the enviroment and if it has not gone on long enough talk therapy can fix this and brain chem returns to normal ..
But with some of us due to genetic reasons and long term enviroment dysfunction our brain chemistry is dificient and the term that I like best is call "Reward Deficiency Syndrome" This is a real state that some people find themselves in and it is living hell ..
While I agree with you that what we have available in the way of opiates are too intrusive in many areas such as tolerence ect .. I do believe that we need to design ones that tweak the opiate system which in turn tweaks the dopamine system as well so that people can feel more alive , get satisfaction and be able to do life ..
God would not have placed endorphin system in our brain chem if it were not important for our life and He would have not place abundant receptors in the emotional area of our brain if it was not crucial to our enjoyment of life ,,
The endorphin opioid system is not just there for allieviating physical pain , it is also there for enjoyment of our emotional life as well ..
Neuroscience has to investigate endorphin system much more , it is complicated in that it is a very long amino acid chain that our bodies create. It is also 60 times more powerful than any drug we derive from the poppy or synthetic form or opiates we create ..
Also our own natural endorphin system has a fast acting component as well as a more long acting component ..
There is much more to this , but my point is most of us do not use these drugs to get stoned or run from depression ..
Posted by ramsea on January 22, 2004, at 8:56:10
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by laura777 on January 21, 2004, at 8:22:42
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 25, 2004, at 23:48:58
In reply to OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION « LAURA777, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2004, at 17:33:47
Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION » Verity
Posted by laura777 on January 24, 2004, at 13:37:09
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION » LAURA777, posted by Verity on January 9, 2004, at 12:16:18
hey Verity , I totally understand where you are coming from , the area of the opioid system needs to be explored more and this is difficult because it is complicated in that many aminos in chain form are invovled and that they have short acting properties and longer duration properties .. Also our natural opioid system is 60 times more powerful than anything we create with poppies or synthetics .. What further complicates things is that there are many other neuros , hormones , polypetides , enzymes , receptors and the fact of where the foul up is going wrong , could be several places ..
But one think I am convinced of is ... Is that the endorphin system will bring about enourmous advances in treatment of many disorders from schizaphrenia ,ADHD , depression , ect due to the cascade effect of all the neros have on eachother , love to hear any thoughts that you may have still ..By the way , I was given ADderall Xr because I am ADHD and have been since I was small , it just changed when I got older , especially affecting motivation interest issues ..
I believe Adderall to be the more safer drug to take than that of opiates due to the fact that they are less intrusive in many areas of the whole body system , where as opiates are more so .. laura----
Wellbutrin sr and lexapro combo
Posted by lexman on January 25, 2004, at 22:27:10
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION » Verity, posted by laura777 on January 24, 2004, at 13:37:09
Is anyone on lexapro and wellbutrin sr? I took lexapro 10mg and i did well for anxiety, but not for depression.I was also tried alot.So my doctor prescribed wellbutrin.I have been on it for a month and i am having my sexual side effects. I dont even think about sex anymore or masturbate.Which is hard to believe.lol Anyways, i was wondering does the 2 meds increase the side effects of one another.I also noticed that after a night of partying. I felt horrible for 2 days.I guess you cant drink on this combo either.Which sucks because i like to drink with my friends once in awhile.
lexman
Posted by laura777 on January 26, 2004, at 10:27:26
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by mtdew on January 17, 2004, at 2:00:40
> I've experienced a nice mood lift from opiates, but it seems to go away after only a few days of use, leaving only a blank stoned feeling. But perhaps I haven't tried it from a dark enough depression from which that would be an improvement.
>
> By the way, Provigil is said to have a mild effect on dopamine, though the manufacturer downplays this (Shhhhhh). It ought to be fairly easy to get, too.
Provigil effects the noradrenaline , at higher doses it begins to have effect on dopamine ,,
But just taking one dose of provigil had me climbing the walls .... I got useless nervous energy but with no motivation or interest ..
Posted by laura777 on January 26, 2004, at 10:36:34
In reply to Redirected: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by Dr. Bob on January 25, 2004, at 23:48:58
From what I understand lexapro is for anxiety , as for welbutrin giving you a low sex drive , this appears to be strange because it is supposed to do just the oppisite .. people who take ssri's such as lexapro prozac have trouble with low sex drive reaching orgasms ect..
Wellbutrin is proscribed to counter balance this ..
Talk to your p-doc let him know ..> > Is anyone on lexapro and wellbutrin sr? I took lexapro 10mg and i did well for anxiety, but not for depression.I was also tried alot.So my doctor prescribed wellbutrin.I have been on it for a month and i am having my sexual side effects. I dont even think about sex anymore or masturbate.Which is hard to believe.lol Anyways, i was wondering does the 2 meds increase the side effects of one another.I also noticed that after a night of partying. I felt horrible for 2 days.I guess you cant drink on this combo either.Which sucks because i like to drink with my friends once in awhile.
> lexman
Posted by flyingdreams on January 27, 2004, at 17:31:59
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by JohnFromCalifornia on January 10, 2004, at 19:52:39
Very interesting what you have to say. I've have thought the same from time to time. Alcohol at least gets out of your system faster than anti-depressants and you don't have to take alcohol everyday like you do anti-depressants. Use when you need it most. But then, what if you become addicted to alcohol, it's a risk. But you know you will be addicted to anti-depressants and you know reading this board and my personal experience, you get withdrawals when getting off anti-depressants. I'm trying the vitamins approach now. The side effects of the anti-depressants have outweighted any possible benefits they give me. I say if you can deal with life without being on a anti-depressant go for it! More power to ya!
Posted by SandyWeb on January 27, 2004, at 20:55:16
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by flyingdreams on January 27, 2004, at 17:31:59
Is Codeine an opiate? I have some Tylenol with Codeine, and I was thinking of trying it. Like you all, I have not had any success with the usual rounds of psychotropics. I didn't get a chance to see if Wellbutrin would work because it shot my heart rate up!
Do you think 3 pills would be wise? I'm not sure how much acetaminaphin a person can take in one dose. What about sublingual?
What I would give to relieve this unfocused anxiety. *sigh*
Sandy
Posted by laura777 on January 28, 2004, at 15:01:15
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by SandyWeb on January 27, 2004, at 20:55:16
Hey Sandy , Wellbutrin made your heart rate shoot up because of noradrenaline properties of the drug .. As for the tylenol with codiene ? what are the milligrams ?
Be careful with taking anything that you have not fully found out about .. you have a computer look up exactly what it is you have ..
As far as acetaminaphin is concerned ,, it depends on the condition of your liver and any other drugs you may be taking ....
A healthy liver that is not impeded by any other drugs can process 1 gram and higher of acetaminaphin ..
The pills that you mentioned have milligrams and it takes 1000 milligarams to equal 1 gram ..
What I strongly suggest though is investigate yourself and how you feel and any drug that you use and how it makes you feel ..
Everyone's chemistry is different and can be affected by enviroment and genetics ..
Are you seeing a P-Doc ?
Posted by Spotcheck on January 28, 2004, at 18:21:42
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by SandyWeb on January 27, 2004, at 20:55:16
Sandy, codeine is indeed an opiate -- a natural opiate as opposed to a synthetic opiate like heroin.
WRT to the rest of your questions, laura777 had addressed them nicely.
I would strongly recommend that you take her advice.
Posted by SandyWeb on January 28, 2004, at 18:58:34
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by laura777 on January 28, 2004, at 15:01:15
Thanks so much for your responses. Isn't it great that we have such a caring community to come to?
I actually took 3 of the pills, as I had read that one shouldn't take anymore than 1g of acet. within a 24-hour period. So it was 900mg in the 3 pills, plus only 24mg of codeine.
Honestly, I have to say that I didn't even feel it. It just seemed like sugar pills. So I won't be doing that again because I don't want to put my liver into shock (lol!)....but why pose the risk when it's not necessary, you know?
I'm surprised really that it did not have an impact on me. Then again, the pdoc that I saw for the one and ONLY time just couldn't believe me when a certain sleeping med didn't even touch me. It makes you feel like you're a secret junkie, trying to get drugs for your fix, when you keep asking for different meds or raising the doses. Oh well....one day we will find the magic combination. It takes most of us quite a few roller coaster rides before we FINALLY find something that works, even at least partially.
Oh, I meant to mention about the Wellbutrin. I don't think it was the NE that shot my heart rate up because high doses of Remeron doesn't cause that to happen. But Wellbutrin and Nozinan both have dopamine function in common, so I thought it was probably something to do with that neurotransmitter. Who knows? The lovely pdoc I went to told me that it couldn't possibly have happened. It makes you wonder why some people go into medicine. *smile*
Have a wonderful day!
Sandy
Posted by laura777 on January 28, 2004, at 22:57:46
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by SandyWeb on January 28, 2004, at 18:58:34
Well Sandy , Opiates for me such as 2 x 5mg codiene or 2 x 5 mg vicodin gave me energy that was even and lifted a greyness that I had since I entered adolescents ..
Usually opiates tend to make people drowsy or fuzzy , but for me I get just the oppisite .
I have since been properly diagnosed with ADHD since starting this thread 1 year ago ..
I now take Adderall XR and I could write pages on how it has changed my life ..
Opiates hold a key to this very complex lock of neuro chemistry , but the ones available today in my opinion are invasive in areas where they shouldn't be and the adverse effects such as tolerance , and affecting areas of the body such as digestive tract and a host of other issues..It's too bad that we can not come up with an opiate that would tweak the system without all the other garbage ..
Reward Deficiency syndrome is a good phrase of what I suffered from besides all the well known things associated with ADHD .. Inability to organise , follow thru on tasks , In fact I didn't even have a clue on how bad this was for me until I began to take the meds and now I see the difference , because initially I sought help for lack of motivation and interest .. This was my biggest complaint ..
Reguarding the other areas such as following thru , organisation ect ect ... I just thought that was just who I was ... meaning that I am the type of person who never has there stuff together ..But this was not the case , because like I said after being put on the right meds my whole world has changed ... I could write a book ..
And for me wellbutrin didn't have a big effect on my dopamine issues because it just made me racey with useless nervous energy and no motivation or interest to put that energy to good use ..
Provigil was the same story .. effexor , too ..
I believe these are all noradrenaline enhancers ..
Everyones Brain chem is so different , that is just one of the many reasons this is so complex ..For me it is fascinating and I hope some day to go back to school and learn all I can about it ..
Posted by chris748 on January 28, 2004, at 23:08:11
In reply to OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION « LAURA777, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2004, at 17:33:47
I am a 20 year old, who has found opiates to treat my depression better than anything. I have been diagnosed as having 2 herniated discs in my lumbar spine, yet doctors won't prescribe me what I need for their fear of my addiction. I will admit, hydrocodone withdrawls are about the worst feeling in the world, but vicoproufen and Lortab have both contributed to my feeling of the love of life. I build stairs in very exquisite homes in the southeast and have not found opiates to make me less alert when working around saws, but to help me better concentrate and not get bored with what I am doing. I get paid by what I get done, no salary or by the hour. Ever since I have been on the drug, my productivity has almost doubled and I have found myself to be happy with my job. A lot of that has to do with the back pain, because chronic back pain does lead to depression and here recently has lead to severe anxiety. I am only 20 years old, but I have learned an entire, very complex trade while taking this drug. I used to have no interest in what I did and all I knew was that my back hurt all the time. I wish there were more open-minded doctors such as Dr. Bob to do research on these issue. I have been through the whole anti-inflammatory thing, which helped with the back pain, but I was still unhappy. I can take my hydro in the morning and get a great amount accomplished, where when I was on the anti-inflammatories, I still had the lull in my everyday life. It is very depressing to suffer from severe back pain as well as anxiety at my age. Much of the anxiety comes from being an entrepenuer at my age and having to deal with people who doubt me pretty much everyday, when my work is clearly comparable with my fathers work, and he has been doing this for 30 years. The HC just seems to add the spark back.. They try to put me on Effexor and all that other BS, but the way I look at that is that its just something else to be addicted to. I don't understand what the problem is with being addicted to something that helps you as much as HC has helped me. They wouldn't seem to be concerned with an Effexor addiction... I just don't understand. I wish Dr. Bob luck in his research with this topic, because it could prove to be very useful in the future...
Posted by laura777 on January 29, 2004, at 10:41:14
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by chris748 on January 28, 2004, at 23:08:11
Hey Chris , Is Dr. Bob doing research on opiates for depression , lack of motivation and interest ?
Chris.... I can relate to all that you have written in your post .. Everything except for the back pain .. I noticed that percoset changed my world from grey lifelessness to a world of color .. They were given to me for tooth pain ..
This was on a small dose 2 x 5 mgs ..
The initial euphoria only lasted a short duration and then for the rest of the day I was very productive and could move from task to task without struggling , pushing thru things ..
I would get bored so easily , things were so grey , but if I ingested a bit of opiate in small doses things were much much different ..I just wish we could come up with a drug to replace our natural opioid system without all the tolerance issues ect ect ..
As I said in my last post I take Adderall XR ..
At first I was very skeptical because it was an amphetamine and I do not tolerate any noradrenaline drugs well , nor did I like any drug that was speed ..
But with Adderall Xr I think it is in the molecular structure of the drug that makes it work so well ..
Because when you take an opiate it allows for dopamine to flood the meso limbic system , nucleus accumbens and they think that is because opiates bind to their receptors but also inhibit GABA from restricting dopamine to enter in this area as well ..
Hey I feel for you truly .. I know what it is like to be where you are ..
Hey if Dr. Bob is doing research , please forgive my ignorance and send me a link somebody !Thanks , Laura
Posted by Cajunbelle on January 29, 2004, at 11:29:41
In reply to OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION « LAURA777, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2004, at 17:33:47
I am so glad that I noticed this post.I just had this discussion with my therapist last week.I was given Lortabs for tooth pain, and noticed how much better they work over any antidepressant.They make me feel calm,Give me energy and motivation, makes me actually feel normal.The therapist said that there is a big debate and study going on concerning the benefits of opiates in treating depression.She asked me If I thought I would be prone to an addiction problem with the lortabs...Was she actually going to give me a prescription and her blessing to take them? It did cross my mind.
Kristen
Posted by katrina1 on January 29, 2004, at 11:41:55
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION » chris748, posted by laura777 on January 29, 2004, at 10:41:14
I've been on Buprenorphine (subutex) for almost 1 yr. with no abuse at all and I am a recovering alcoholic. I never crave it or take "extra" however I will have physical withdraw if I go too long without my dose. I probably don't take enough...I take 1 mg. 2 times per day. It is the only thing that took the teeth out of my depression, but it hasn't put it in remission. My pdoc calls me bi-polar, but my mania is agitation and mild hypomania, but I subsist in depression. Opiates are a definite in my arsenal.
Posted by justjustine on January 29, 2004, at 21:27:20
In reply to Re: OPIATES/Buprenorphine Use, posted by katrina1 on January 29, 2004, at 11:41:55
I've been off Effexor for 3+ weeks now with horrible withdrawals, and Vicodin is the ONLY drug I've found that helps. It's just that now my doctor thinks I'm a junky and wants me on another SSRI. I'm seeing an acupuncuturist and getting another PCP and psych in the meantime.
I only take the Vicodin as needed, but I just did an experiment and after about 18 hours it's brain shivers, body aches, head ache, nausea, etc. etc. all over again.
I wish the "medical community" would learn not to demonize certain substances while holding up others unquestionably.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on January 30, 2004, at 13:41:56
In reply to OPIATES and Effexor withdrawal, posted by justjustine on January 29, 2004, at 21:27:20
Amphetamine and marijuana also helped me. Addiction psychologist Stanton Peele asserts in _Love and Addiction_ (1975) that a drug withdrawl syndrome is actually a physical expression of a severe emotional longing for the drug. This is the only coherent explanation I've ever heard of why so many drugs could alleviate withdrawl symptoms of, well, so many other drugs.
Posted by justjustine on January 30, 2004, at 18:54:36
In reply to Re: OPIATES and Effexor withdrawal » justjustine, posted by Chairman_MAO on January 30, 2004, at 13:41:56
i'm not sure i understand - amphetamine and marijuana helped you withdraw from effexor? or from heroin? thanks.
> Amphetamine and marijuana also helped me. Addiction psychologist Stanton Peele asserts in _Love and Addiction_ (1975) that a drug withdrawl syndrome is actually a physical expression of a severe emotional longing for the drug. This is the only coherent explanation I've ever heard of why so many drugs could alleviate withdrawl symptoms of, well, so many other drugs.
Posted by justjustine on January 30, 2004, at 19:01:29
In reply to OPIATES and Effexor withdrawal, posted by justjustine on January 29, 2004, at 21:27:20
i saw my psych today - he is still not convinced that my withdrawal symptoms are caused by the effexor, but we are going to continue to work together on this. i've agreed to slowly come off the vicodin over the next few weeks with his supervision, which is what i wanted all along anyway! and the only other scrip i'll be on is ambien for sleep so he can eliminate other possible causes like xanax withdrawal, for instance.
i left him a pile of info to read, and yes i'm still getting a new PCP. but at least i've got a doctor who wants to work with me. god bless his pointed little head.
> I've been off Effexor for 3+ weeks now with horrible withdrawals, and Vicodin is the ONLY drug I've found that helps. It's just that now my doctor thinks I'm a junky and wants me on another SSRI. I'm seeing an acupuncuturist and getting another PCP and psych in the meantime.
>
> I only take the Vicodin as needed, but I just did an experiment and after about 18 hours it's brain shivers, body aches, head ache, nausea, etc. etc. all over again.
>
> I wish the "medical community" would learn not to demonize certain substances while holding up others unquestionably.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2004, at 23:36:58
In reply to Re: OPIATES and Effexor withdrawal » justjustine, posted by Chairman_MAO on January 30, 2004, at 13:41:56
> _Love and Addiction_ (1975)
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Chairman_MAO on January 31, 2004, at 8:18:30
In reply to Re: OPIATES and Effexor withdrawal, posted by justjustine on January 30, 2004, at 18:54:36
> i'm not sure i understand - amphetamine and marijuana helped you withdraw from effexor? or from heroin? thanks.
From Effexor. I've never had to withdraw from an opiate; they've always had too many side effects and were too physically debilitating for me to use chronically. Most people that have to take opiates to ameliorate crippling pain or depression do *not* enjoy taking them. In fact, most healthy control subjects given IV morphine find it unpleasant.
I once asked the best psychologist I've ever had--I might as well call him my "guru"--how people could enjoy being cokeheads. He replied, "No one enjoys being a cokehead; they just don't like coming down."
Posted by laura777 on January 31, 2004, at 13:26:02
In reply to Re: OPIATES and Effexor withdrawal » justjustine, posted by Chairman_MAO on January 30, 2004, at 13:41:56
> Amphetamine and marijuana also helped me. Addiction psychologist Stanton Peele asserts in _Love and Addiction_ (1975) that a drug withdrawl syndrome is actually a physical expression of a severe emotional longing for the drug. This is the only coherent explanation I've ever heard of why so many drugs could alleviate withdrawl symptoms of, well, so many other drugs.
Hello , this next statement is by no means supposed to be directed at you nor is it meant in malice , But in my opinion I think Stanton Peele is an ASS ..
His understanding of addiction is box like ... and his arrogance will keep him from ever reaching outside his box like "thinking "...
Last time I read his web site , which was about a year ago .. and this was my take on many of his views ..
Posted by femlite1 on February 2, 2004, at 13:00:41
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION, posted by laura777 on January 28, 2004, at 22:57:46
but the ones available today in my opinion are invasive in areas where they shouldn't be and the adverse effects such as tolerance , and affecting areas of the body such as digestive tract and a host of other issues..
I have had to take percocet continuously for close to 4 months and am worried about my digestive system as Ive had this problems before my use of opiods. I am now in physical therapy and hope to see an osteopath soon who specializes in chronic pain. I am try ing to diminish my dosage slowy as preparation for quitting.
What are the negative health effects you speak of. My use has been on and off over 2 years time and I am thankful for the mental as well as physical relief Ive recieved but I feel deep down that opiods may be hurting my health.
Posted by laura777 on February 2, 2004, at 17:13:57
In reply to Re: OPIATES IN TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION » laura777, posted by femlite1 on February 2, 2004, at 13:00:41
Hey don't get alarmed , I am speaking of using them in terms of depression .. taking them everyday for the rest of ones life .. tolerance is an issue , at least it is for me , i develop tolerance to them quickly ...
FRom what i hear about buprenorphine this is not a problem it seems ..
Physical effects I am talking about are the constipation , urinary retention ..
Withdrawl is a big time bummer .. Things like this I was thinking of ,...
As far as them being really bad for your health , there are many more things that are perscribed these days that are far worse for our health than opiates that is for sure ..sorry if I caused you alarm .. I just wish they could make a better opiate is all ..
This is the end of the thread.
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