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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jasmine Neroli on September 26, 2003, at 0:21:33
I was wondering if marijuana has any GABA affects, since it seems to have such a calming, mellowing effect on most people (though not all).
It has been suggested to me as an alternative anti-anxiety medication ( in my case for G.A.D.) and maybe legally available to me here in Canada, as "medical marijuana". What other neurotransmitters does it effect? Anyone have any opinions, info on this???
Thanks
Jas
Posted by DayByDay on September 26, 2003, at 7:43:05
In reply to Which neurotransmitters does Pot affect?, posted by Jasmine Neroli on September 26, 2003, at 0:21:33
High Jasmine!
The main active substance in cannabis is Delta-9-Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) which binds to specific cannabiod receptors. There already exists a chemical in the brain naturally called amandamide (think thatīs how itīs spelled) thats chemically diffrent in structure but identical in action. This is similar to opiods acting on the
same receptors as your own opiods in the brain.
What diffrent functions amandamide has in the brain is under research - one theory i heard is that for instance some overweight people would have more of this substance thus having an increased appetite - another theory is that it is the substance in the brain that helps us to forget painful memories making cannabis medicines
(and the chemical development of possible new cannobiod-based medicines without the intoxicating effects and less side-effects)
an promising alternative in treating PTSD.
The natural opiod-system is actually believed to have a similar effect on painful memories, if this system is somehow "cooperating" with the
cannabiod system or if both work indepentantly
is yet unknown. What is known is that many people with PTSD for instance victims of war, are heavy consumers of cannabis or opiods.As far as other neurotransmiters go Iīm not sure but I think the cannabiod-system donīt affect any
of the classical ones but is a system of itīs own (Im not sure here-Ill do some research of my own to find out), I know it doesnīt have a
affect on dopamine (or if it was only minimal)
the neurotransmiter is affected by most other recreational drugs, including alcohol and tobacco.
Dopamine release is involved in the development of
addiction thus cannabis has a low potential for addiction and mild withdrawal symptoms compared
to strong dopamine-boosting drugs.As far as GAD goes i can say out of my own experience that when I used to smoke cannabis chronically it helped me with my depression and anxiety problems when they where mild to quite moderate, when they got very severe however cannabis made it worse especially the anxiety.
Diffrent people react diffrently though some
experiece it diffrently. Some people react with
anxiety increase or even panic from smoking it at
all, anxiety reactions are also more common in inexperienced users, at to high doses or in an inpropratiate set or setting or in combination with certain other drugs/medicines.Another thing is that when people stop chronic
smoking they experience mild (in comparision to other drugs) withdrawal symptomps. In my experience most people who only are addicted to it recreationally and stop have, (along with the
general craving and boredom/restlessness cuz your
not high) : trobles with insomnia (2,3 days - 2 weeks), can get more easily irritated thus capable of reacting stronger than necessary if something is pissing
them of (most noticable the first couple of days),
some also get a loss of appetite and sweatings.
Most withdrawal symptoms usually ends within a week while the sleeping problems can take up to two weeks.HOWEVER some people who use it to treat depression and anxiety are more probalbly to get even emotional withdrawals. They can find their symptoms unmasked (unless itīs gotten better) when quiting. On top of that they are also increased during the first days when quiting because of withdrawal. Allthough this can be tough
i wouldnīt consider it a problem since itīs relativively mild and if itīs tricky can be helped with sedatives and sleeping pills, some people prefer using alcohol for a couple of days -one shouldnīt use them both though! Of course one
should stop after the withdrawals pass - keeping on drinking instead of smoking is probably not such a good idea unless you like to do that -
in my oppinion itīs better to keep on smoking in such a case.
I guess it like that with every drug, if you use it to cure phychological problems you find it harder to quit then if you use it for recreational purpose only.Never the less the withdrawal (in my case at least isīnt that bad) that I would discourage people from using it as a benefitial long term therapy. I would consider the short-term memory problems and amotivation more relevant to think about and of course the possibility that you might start to like it to much!
If it medical marijuana then spending a lot of
money wonīt be a problem eighter.If you would be using medicinal marijuana what kind of doses and potency would it be?
I used it in heavy doses becaused I liked it for recreational purposes as well, would be
interesting to hear what kind of doses are required are consider optimal for medical purposes.Hope Iīve been of some help even though you might already know much of the stuff I wrote, as far as the neurotransmiters goes Iīll have to check some
more and come back on this thread. You can also surf on the net yourself. It would to inresting to
know how it goes with you perscription, if you
feel like it, Jasmine, it would cool if you posted an update on this thread.Wish you the best of anxiety relief
DayByDay
Posted by pixygoth on September 26, 2003, at 9:37:11
In reply to Re to Jasmine: Cannabiod Receptors, posted by DayByDay on September 26, 2003, at 7:43:05
Hi there - just bumping the thread cos I want to know about this too. I smoke pretty heavily - and agree with DbD on all said. although I do get jumpy when I'm just running out... it's a coping mechanism like any other I suppose, although not very toxic compared to e.g. alcohol.
Medical marijuana is really interesting to me - maybe I could get the therapueutic benefits w/o having to feel like a bit of a junkie?
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 26, 2003, at 9:45:37
In reply to Re to Jasmine: Cannabiod Receptors, posted by DayByDay on September 26, 2003, at 7:43:05
Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your post... Its good to read a sensible post ont he subject, that actually deals with the issues of marajuana smoking without the anti-drugs aspect.
I'm been a smoker of it for quite some time, and I guess some people would class me as a heavy smoker (though I have my own personal rule never to smoke during the day monday - friday, only in the evening!)
I know I get jittery when I am running out, as it really does help me sleep, and in my opinion is better than constant use of sleeping pills (and my pdoc agree's with this!) It also helps me hugely with anxiety, and helps me relax where nothing else does. I don't really drink alcohol (occasionally, maybe once every couple of months I'll have a couple of drinks, and maybe get drunk once a year).. Alcohol can get me violent and hyper, marajuana just chills me out and makes me a nice person!!
Just my experience of course..
Nikki
Posted by Caleb462 on September 26, 2003, at 13:13:55
In reply to Re: Re to Jasmine: Cannabiod Receptors ŧ DayByDay, posted by NikkiT2 on September 26, 2003, at 9:45:37
Like a previous poster said, there are specific receptors in the brain (cannabanoid receptors) that THC attaches to. Cannabanoid receptors are not well understood, in comparison to some other brain receptors at least.
However, I do know that THC has been shown to inhibit the release of the neurotransmitters acetylcholine and norepinephrine. It also has conflicting effects on GABA (potentiates GABA in some area's of the brain while inhibiting GABA release in other areas). I believe dopamine release does occur from THC as well, but probably on a much smaller scale than other addictive drugs.
Posted by DayByDay on September 26, 2003, at 16:15:54
In reply to Re: Re to Jasmine: Cannabiod Receptors, posted by Caleb462 on September 26, 2003, at 13:13:55
> Like a previous poster said, there are specific receptors in the brain (cannabanoid receptors) that THC attaches to. Cannabanoid receptors are not well understood, in comparison to some other brain receptors at least.
>
> However, I do know that THC has been shown to inhibit the release of the neurotransmitters acetylcholine and norepinephrine. It also has conflicting effects on GABA (potentiates GABA in some area's of the brain while inhibiting GABA release in other areas). I believe dopamine release does occur from THC as well, but probably on a much smaller scale than other addictive drugs.Thanks for the information Caleb462, it was new
to me. My question is what the practical effects
of these changes are?Are they minor or major and how relavant are they?
What function has acetylcholine?
Even though it doesnīt seem like an spelling error Iīll ask you just in case: do you mean norephedrine (noradrenaline) by norepinephrine,
or is it my spelling thatīs wrong.
Anyway if it is norepinephrine then what fuction does it have?Then finally the GABA effects how would they interfere with other GABA drugs like anticonvulsants?
I would like to say thing I would like to say that may be of importance for MJ-smokers - although MJ helps many people with depression there is new research suggesting it may cause depression aswell which could mean some MJ-smokers are treating a depression that was initially caused by MJ.
If you like to read more about this go to
the NEW SCIENTIST homepage and check out their
marijuana section - they have lotīs of good information and are objective reporting about
both possible positive and negative sides of MJ as well as the political/legal issues related to it.And finally NikkiT2 said:
"I don't really drink alcohol (occasionally, maybe once every couple of months I'll have a couple of drinks, and maybe get drunk once a year).."
Iīm exactly like you - very occasionaly Iīll have a beer or two or maybe even a third if its a
suitable occasion. As far as being party-drunk
it happens only but not necessarly at special occasions such as someones birthday or new-years eve.Whether I smoke occasionally or chronically attribute my mild alcohol consumtion to the smoking. Alcohol can be as a ok relaxant in small amounts but being drunk (although alcohol technically is capable of being the most intoxicating of the all traditional drugs) really isnīt that fun expept in exeptional occasions. I any case smoking is 10 times nicer. Besides if I am heavily stoned I canīt drink that much either because I just got too tired to enjoy being awake.
Most of the stoners Iīve spoke to agrees with
the fact that cannabis consumtion decreases
their alcohol consumtion and I personally think
that a legalisation would have this effect at
the part of population that would smoke, giving
them a (generally) much safer and nicer alternative.
I donīt know if their has been any research done
on this in the Netherlands for instance.
Posted by Caleb462 on September 27, 2003, at 0:42:28
In reply to Questions to Caleb462 and Re to NikkiT2, posted by DayByDay on September 26, 2003, at 16:15:54
> > Like a previous poster said, there are specific receptors in the brain (cannabanoid receptors) that THC attaches to. Cannabanoid receptors are not well understood, in comparison to some other brain receptors at least.
> >
> > However, I do know that THC has been shown to inhibit the release of the neurotransmitters acetylcholine and norepinephrine. It also has conflicting effects on GABA (potentiates GABA in some area's of the brain while inhibiting GABA release in other areas). I believe dopamine release does occur from THC as well, but probably on a much smaller scale than other addictive drugs.
>
> Thanks for the information Caleb462, it was new
> to me. My question is what the practical effects
> of these changes are?
>
> Are they minor or major and how relavant are they?Not quite sure, but I know the effect on acetylcholine by cannabis is quite profound.
> What function has acetylcholine?Acetylcholine has many functions in the body, one of the most prominent being memory. It also controls digestive processes and various other things, which I can't recall right now. Cannabis's profound effect on short-term memory is due to the inhibition of acetylcholine release in the hippocampus. The "cottonmouth" effect of marijuana is probably also due to anti-chollinergic effects of cannabis. Dry mouth is one of the most well-known side effects of anti-chollinergic drugs (tricyclic anti-depressants, for instance).
> Even though it doesnīt seem like an spelling error Iīll ask you just in case: do you mean norephedrine (noradrenaline) by norepinephrine,I mean noradrenaline, yes. Noradrenaline and norepinephrine is the same chemical, it just goes by two different names. Norephedrine is somethingly completely different, and is not a neurotransmitter.
> Anyway if it is norepinephrine then what fuction does it have?Again, I'm no expert - but norepinephrine is one of the body's "activating" chemicals. Concentration, drive, energy, stamina and possibly mood, these things probably all have connections to norepinephrine. I would assume that marijuana's anti-noradrenergic effects lead to the tiredness, lethargy and low motivation marijuana can induce.
> Then finally the GABA effects how would they interfere with other GABA drugs like anticonvulsants?Really have no idea, but cannabis has been shown to have anti-convulsant effects itself - so I assume cannabis would potentiate the effect of other anti-convulsants.
Posted by DayByDay on September 27, 2003, at 17:37:04
In reply to Re: Questions to Caleb462 and Re to NikkiT2, posted by Caleb462 on September 27, 2003, at 0:42:28
Where and how is the pshychedelic part of the high produced?
Thanks
DbD
Posted by Caleb462 on September 27, 2003, at 17:59:37
In reply to Re: Nice Answers, Caleb462 and 1 more question., posted by DayByDay on September 27, 2003, at 17:37:04
Now that I don't know. I assume the anti-chollinergic effects have atleast something to do with it, as high doses of anti-chollinergic substances can produce some very weird effects (including intense hallucinations), but it is obviously something different than that. I might do some research later and see what I can find.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 28, 2003, at 1:57:23
In reply to Re: Nice Answers, Caleb462 and 1 more question., posted by Caleb462 on September 27, 2003, at 17:59:37
Just figured I'd throw in here (just for those who may not be aware) that delta-9-THC is *by far* not the only active phytochemical in marijuana. Anyone who's taken the prescription drug Marinol (dronabinol -- delta-9-THC in tablet form prescribed for nausea and to increase appetite) can tell you that. :-)
When figuring the neurotransmitters pot affects and in which ways, you've got to take hundreds of chemicals into account.
Oh, as a side note, Marinol isn't even all that effective for chemotherapy nausea and AIDS wasting syndrome -- works okay for some, but I'd bet those same people would receive much more substantial benefit using the form of the drug Mother Nature has provided for us.
Posted by DayByDay on September 28, 2003, at 14:20:23
In reply to Re: Nice Answers, Caleb462 and 1 more question. ŧ Caleb462, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 28, 2003, at 1:57:23
Yeah i know I think itīs about 40 of those cannabiods, or was it 60, maybe 80.. donīt remember... must have been stoned when I read it.
However I read that they have exactly the
same effects that Delta-9-THC.
I have always doubted that, because that would
probably mean that every kind of weed would have the same kind of effect (only differ in strenght) well that isnīt the case - diffrent kind of weed have diffrent characteristics. There also something called CBD or something like that (think itīs a cannabiod) something that I think counteracts THC iīm not sure, but weed would have diffrent effect
depending on how much of it is in relation to THC.
There is also diffrencies between Indica weed(more sedating) and Sativa weed (more activating).
Does any one know why hash is more heavy, sedating and physical than weed - i know itīs generally more concentrated but still smoking shitloads of weed doesīnt have the same effect?
And also what causes the euforic and/or antidepressant effect since effect on dopamine
is low, is it one of the previously mentioned stuff or a combination of several factors?DbD
Posted by pixygoth on October 1, 2003, at 7:23:15
In reply to While we are at it, som mor iv been wonderin bout ŧ Ame Sans Vie, posted by DayByDay on September 28, 2003, at 14:20:23
The "'Cannabible'" (i think that's the name) is very informative as to different strains of weed and their differing effects. The guy seems v. knowledgable (having given up his original life to the pursuit of the ultimate good lifestyle...) and talks about THC/CBD (cannabidinols?) ratios... this seems to be responsible for the sativa/indica differences and spectrum. They don't inhibit each other so much as interact, I think.
BTW, I reckon that the resin on the market is no longer 'more concentrated' than the herbal (in general). My experience has been that *dirty* hash is the stuff that makes you really sleepy. The heavy stone from *good* hash is different, it's more like loads of green all at once. I once smoked some solid that had been smuggled in a diesel truck - It made me spew and then sleep for ages. Basically, I think we should all be very wary of solid hash - a lot of it is cut with all kinds of shit... I wouldn't rule out sedatives and so on, so medication interactions are going to be less of a risk with green.
Besides the stories about *really* cheap solid being cut with dogsh*t.
This is the end of the thread.
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