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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by loolot on September 7, 2003, at 21:34:22
Just saw this posted somewhere else. what do you guys think of this? I am interested in stims but this kind of thing makes me nervous. I already suspect wellbutrin might be frying my dopamine receptors.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030905/sc_nm/science_retraction_dc_1
Posted by Ilene on September 7, 2003, at 22:43:13
In reply to amphetamine/brain damage? , posted by loolot on September 7, 2003, at 21:34:22
> Just saw this posted somewhere else. what do you guys think of this? I am interested in stims but this kind of thing makes me nervous. I already suspect wellbutrin might be frying my dopamine receptors.
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030905/sc_nm/science_retraction_dc_1I saw that too. These animal were injected with high doses of methamphetamine--more powerful than the dexedrine you get for depression. I took dexedrine for a few years and it was okay, but eventually it just made me feel too strange and I stopped taking it.
(The article was about the affect of politics on publication. I always thought Science was a peer-reviewed journal--how could they miss such an obvious error? )
As far as brain damage goes--I think I'm brain damaged but I don't know if it's from my underlying disorders, whatever they are, or from the drugs I've been taking for the past 15 years. I don't think either wellbutrin or dexedrine was particularly bad for me. Effexor was the worst.
I.
Posted by stjames on September 8, 2003, at 1:32:55
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage? » loolot, posted by Ilene on September 7, 2003, at 22:43:13
I don't think either wellbutrin or dexedrine was particularly bad for me. Effexor was the worst.
None of these cause brain damage at levels prescribed. Everything, even water, causes
damage if you take enough.Move on people, nothing to see here.
Posted by utopizen on September 8, 2003, at 1:36:31
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage? » loolot, posted by Ilene on September 7, 2003, at 22:43:13
The amphetamines are among the most safest drugs that exist. Combine them with certain drugs, they may pose a problem. Abuse them at doses like 300mg, yeah, you might have a problem. But therapeutically, they're really really safe-- that's why doctors prescribe them so often.
If someone gets anxious on them, you can take something like Klonopin or an SSRI. This bunk about a need to substitute things like Provigil or Straterra because they're more "advanced" is silly. If there's greatest benefit and fewer side effects, more power to you. But amphetamine is a naturally produced drug in your brain. That's why your brain doesn't react like crazy when you take them, in the way SSRIs or other drugs do.
Posted by utopizen on September 8, 2003, at 8:02:53
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage?, posted by utopizen on September 8, 2003, at 1:36:31
meth, by the way, is only neurotoxic when taken through injection AND in high doses AND if you're a rat. Some extrapolate abuse studies of meth to oral Desoxyn, which is absurd... to say the least.
Unfortunately, the gov't only funds abuse studies, so very little is known about Desoxyn therapeutically (other than it works and it's safe)
Posted by loolot on September 8, 2003, at 14:10:47
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage? » loolot, posted by Ilene on September 7, 2003, at 22:43:13
effexor was terrible for me too. My husband is on it now and he is like a completely different person. He doesnt want to relate to anyone anymore. Thats how I felt. Effexor is not the drug to be on if you are in a relationship!
Posted by Shawn. T. on September 8, 2003, at 22:12:12
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage?, posted by utopizen on September 8, 2003, at 1:36:31
I wouldn't consider amphetamines to be the safest drugs in existence. Amphetamine is not naturally produced by the brain. I don't know of any evidence that shows that oral methamphetamine lacks neurotoxic effects; I would agree that more could be known about this issue. The U.S. government does not only fund drug abuse studies.
Also, in response to loolot's worries, Wellbutrin won't "fry" dopamine receptors in the brain. Even if it did, new receptors can be easily be produced to replaced damaged ones. Based on the pharmacological profile of Wellbutrin, there is no reason to believe that it exhibits neurotoxic effects.
Shawn
Posted by djmmm on September 9, 2003, at 8:44:33
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage? » utopizen, posted by Shawn. T. on September 8, 2003, at 22:12:12
> I wouldn't consider amphetamines to be the safest drugs in existence. Amphetamine is not naturally produced by the brain. I don't know of any evidence that shows that oral methamphetamine lacks neurotoxic effects; I would agree that more could be known about this issue. The U.S. government does not only fund drug abuse studies.
>
> Also, in response to loolot's worries, Wellbutrin won't "fry" dopamine receptors in the brain. Even if it did, new receptors can be easily be produced to replaced damaged ones. Based on the pharmacological profile of Wellbutrin, there is no reason to believe that it exhibits neurotoxic effects.
>
> ShawnI agree..amphetamine is a synthetic compound...maybe utopizen was thinking about Phenylalanine, one of many naturally occuring amphetamine-like substances in the body
Posted by Caleb462 on September 9, 2003, at 9:51:43
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage?, posted by djmmm on September 9, 2003, at 8:44:33
> > I wouldn't consider amphetamines to be the safest drugs in existence. Amphetamine is not naturally produced by the brain. I don't know of any evidence that shows that oral methamphetamine lacks neurotoxic effects; I would agree that more could be known about this issue. The U.S. government does not only fund drug abuse studies.
> >
> > Also, in response to loolot's worries, Wellbutrin won't "fry" dopamine receptors in the brain. Even if it did, new receptors can be easily be produced to replaced damaged ones. Based on the pharmacological profile of Wellbutrin, there is no reason to believe that it exhibits neurotoxic effects.
> >
> > Shawn
>
> I agree..amphetamine is a synthetic compound...maybe utopizen was thinking about Phenylalanine, one of many naturally occuring amphetamine-like substances in the body
>
>Phenethylamine is the closest a brain chemical comes to amphetamine... and it is pretty darn close (amphetamine = alpha-methyl-phenethylamine)
Posted by utopizen on September 9, 2003, at 15:22:16
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage? » utopizen, posted by Shawn. T. on September 8, 2003, at 22:12:12
> I wouldn't consider amphetamines to be the safest drugs in existence. Amphetamine is not naturally produced by the brain. I don't know of any evidence that shows that oral methamphetamine lacks neurotoxic effects; I would agree that more could be known about this issue. The U.S. government does not only fund drug abuse studies.
There is no question more abuse studies have been done on meth than ADD studies on Desoxyn. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of abuse studies, over decades.
Abbott patented Desoxyn in 1944. I called Ovation Pharma last year after they paid Abbott $40 million for the rights to it, and the doctor at the company said he has yet to find a SINGLE study over the 60 year period it has been out on the market for ADD.
Fewer than 1% of the Nat'l Institute of Mental Health's $1.4 billion dollar budget is allocated for the research of the three most severe mental illnesses-- Bipolar, schitzophrenia, and depression. (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/2004budget.cfm)
The tradition has always been to leave such research to drug co.'s, and have this philosophy that having random tests unrelated to severe mental illnesses will eventually help us find something novel in the long-run. Unfortunately, they've been around for half a century, and their entire existence over this period has done little to relieve the suffering mental illnesses create.
Drug research spending is like war spending. It's a drug war, after all-- ask for money, it'll come. Ask the gov't for money so that people don't live in terror for their entire existence, that requires congressional reviews...
As far as neurotoxic effects, the only doctor I'm aware of who cites such an example-- using an animal model, of course-- is Dr. Breggin. No one else outside of abuse research, or even within abuse research, would ever suggest methamphetamine induces neurotoxic effects at therapeutic doses taken orally. We have fMRIs, that's not some vague area we can't prove. It does not have neurotoxic effects. Neurotoxicity is a measurable science.
Many of the drugs mentioned here will induce neurotoxic effects if taken at great levels, if no sleep occurs for more than three days to restore the damaging effects of such an overdose, and if this drug is taken by injection. That's just common sense. Of course methamphetamine is neurotoxic if you take it at a recreational level like this, the chronic insomnia it creates is neurotoxic to the brain, much less the drug itself!
Posted by djmmm on September 9, 2003, at 18:31:01
In reply to Re: amphetamine/brain damage?, posted by utopizen on September 9, 2003, at 15:22:16
Methamphetamine produces peroxynitrite, at any dose, and peroxynitrite is a dopamine neurotoxin. I think the real question is the degree of neurotoxicity caused by a specific dose (oral or otherwise)
Don't get me wrong, Desoxyn is a good drug, and has helped many people...but the FDA has a history of "clearing" drugs that are neurotoxins...it's simply a matter of "the good outweighing the bad"
This is the end of the thread.
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