![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 22, 2003, at 22:19:21
Hi Folks,
Here's a link to my recent post about my hormonal test results and the probable link to many of the mood disorders that elude our understanding. As I said in my post, time will tell if things improve as I correct the imbalances, but this is something very important we should all (men and women) be considering in our quests.
Posted by Janis on August 23, 2003, at 9:39:39
In reply to Hormones! Important info, please read, posted by BarbaraCat on August 22, 2003, at 22:19:21
> Hi Folks,
> Here's a link to my recent post about my hormonal test results and the probable link to many of the mood disorders that elude our understanding. As I said in my post, time will tell if things improve as I correct the imbalances, but this is something very important we should all (men and women) be considering in our quests.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030818/msgs/253281.html
I have a holistic MD who was formerly a psychiatrist and closed that practice because he found that the MAJORITY of his depressed patinets had physiological issues, such as hypoglycemia, adrenal insufficiency, thyroid problems, or other pronounced hormonal imbalances - which could be corrected when balanced was restored....there are a couple of other former psychiatrists who have also gone into different fields and now deal more with the physcial imbalances that lead to the emotional and mental states of imbalance. I am in total and complete belief that this is a very important factor to consider for everyone. And thank you for that link!! Janis
Posted by Mariposa on August 23, 2003, at 12:15:38
In reply to Re: Hormones! Important info, please read, posted by Janis on August 23, 2003, at 9:39:39
Another link to a very good site!
Dr. Elizabeth L. Vleit knows!!!
Posted by Mariposa on August 23, 2003, at 12:19:52
In reply to Re: Hormones! Important info, please read, posted by Mariposa on August 23, 2003, at 12:15:38
> Another link to a very good site!
>
> "www.herplace.com"
>
> Dr. Elizabeth L. Vleit knows!!!APPOLOGIES - Dr. Vliet!!! I misspelled your name!
Posted by galkeepinon on August 23, 2003, at 12:42:42
In reply to Hormones! Important info, please read, posted by BarbaraCat on August 22, 2003, at 22:19:21
Hi Barbara Cat! I was wondering how you were and wondering where you went off to lol :-)
thank you for the link!> Hi Folks,
> Here's a link to my recent post about my hormonal test results and the probable link to many of the mood disorders that elude our understanding. As I said in my post, time will tell if things improve as I correct the imbalances, but this is something very important we should all (men and women) be considering in our quests.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030818/msgs/253281.html
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 23, 2003, at 21:00:25
In reply to Re: Hormones! Important info, please read » BarbaraCat, posted by galkeepinon on August 23, 2003, at 12:42:42
Hi Gal!
I've been around, mainly posting in the long-running thread that the referenced link applies to. Had a huge downswing a month ago which could have been due to any number of gargantuan stressors, but am mainly doing pretty darn well these days even considering life could always be better.I'm still on lithium 600mg, upped lamictal from 75 to 125mg (higher caused bad itchies), quit the ambien for sleep, and am just starting a regime set out by my very wonderful naturopath after seeing the results of my horribly screwed hormonal profile. The human growth hormone shots results will be the most interesting for me since such low levels as I have are implicated in fibromyalgia. Plus, gee, that's what Goldie Hawn and others in the 50-ish age group take to stay young and sexy. A new firm and gorgeous bod would do wonders for my mood! So would winning the lottery! But that's about it. Trying to diminish the psych meds slowly but surely but will probably remain on lithium and lamictal.
I'm currently in a low level depression, the 'life sucks' variety, but it ain't no big thing. This I can live with and am grateful I'm not in an agitated panic phase. I'm learning to accept and even honor my pissy moods and figure it's probably healthy given the lousy world situation. Also, most people and life situations really are intolerable so why beat myself up for just being honest about what is? But that's just me talking today. Tomorrow will probably be different, one way or the other. So how are you doin', gal? It has been awhile. - BCat
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 23, 2003, at 21:09:16
In reply to Re: Hormones! Important info, please read, posted by Janis on August 23, 2003, at 9:39:39
Hi Janis,
What a lucky person you are to have found an MD with this combined background!! It's amazing to me that these interwoven systems are so compartmentalized in our current medical philosophy. No wonder we're all a nation of sick and hurting people. Does your holistic MD prescribe any psych meds for you and if so, what counterbalancing or whole body support methods is he using as well? I'm very much in this camp, so anything you want to discuss/share with me, you have a rapt and interested audience. - Barbara> I have a holistic MD who was formerly a psychiatrist and closed that practice because he found that the MAJORITY of his depressed patinets had physiological issues, such as hypoglycemia, adrenal insufficiency, thyroid problems, or other pronounced hormonal imbalances - which could be corrected when balanced was restored....there are a couple of other former psychiatrists who have also gone into different fields and now deal more with the physcial imbalances that lead to the emotional and mental states of imbalance. I am in total and complete belief that this is a very important factor to consider for everyone. And thank you for that link!! Janis
>
>
Posted by jparsell82 on August 25, 2003, at 11:29:02
In reply to Re: Hormones! Important info, please read » Janis, posted by BarbaraCat on August 23, 2003, at 21:09:16
http://www.vrp.com/det/9810.asp?b=465771&c=1061828738087&f=Categories&k=/dddepts.asp&m=/vstyle.css
Here you can purchase a mail-in saliva test. You can choose 5 hormones to have tested from a selection of 8 including Estradiol, Estrone, Estriol, Progesterone, Testosterone, DHEA-S, Androstenedione, and Cortisol. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan on it sometime in the near future.
Posted by Angel1 on August 25, 2003, at 21:49:38
In reply to Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by jparsell82 on August 25, 2003, at 11:29:02
Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
best of luck in whatever you choose.
Posted by galkeepinon on August 25, 2003, at 22:15:06
In reply to Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by jparsell82 on August 25, 2003, at 11:29:02
Thanks for posting this. I am going to check this out!!!!!!! Looks very interesting!!!
> http://www.vrp.com/det/9810.asp?b=465771&c=1061828738087&f=Categories&k=/dddepts.asp&m=/vstyle.css
>
> Here you can purchase a mail-in saliva test. You can choose 5 hormones to have tested from a selection of 8 including Estradiol, Estrone, Estriol, Progesterone, Testosterone, DHEA-S, Androstenedione, and Cortisol. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan on it sometime in the near future.
Posted by galkeepinon on August 25, 2003, at 22:58:02
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by Angel1 on August 25, 2003, at 21:49:38
You must have posted this while I was replying to the post. lol Will you let us know after you compare the 2? I would be really intrerested in how they compare!??
I've had so many blood test workups on my hormones because of some major problems and they always turn up ok. It's frustrating, I guess I'm always up to finding something new.
Please let me know?> Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
> best of luck in whatever you choose.
Posted by Janis on August 26, 2003, at 6:40:16
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » Angel1, posted by galkeepinon on August 25, 2003, at 22:58:02
The doctors I have been to all say the saliva test is MORE accurate and prefer that. Janis
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> > Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
> > best of luck in whatever you choose.
>
>
Posted by jparsell82 on August 26, 2003, at 11:33:28
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by Janis on August 26, 2003, at 6:40:16
from Dr. Ward Dean,
"Salivary hormone measurements have been used for many years as a research tool, but have only recently gained popularity in clinical use. Although hormones are present in saliva in fractional amounts compared to their levels in blood, using sophisticated radio-immunoassay (RIA) and enzyme techniques, highly accurate levels of hormones can be determined in saliva. Although the absolute values of the hormones in saliva are, of course, different from those in blood, the salivary levels are accurate, reproducible and clinically relevant. Additionally, salivary hormone testing offers a number of advantages over blood testing.First, salivary hormone testing is non-invasive and painless.
Second, the testing can be done at any time, anyplace, at the convenience of the patient. This allows for testing in a stress-free environment, and at the proper times to determine peak hormone levels, since hormones rise and fall predictably at certain times of the day. For example, melatonin levels peak between 1 AM and 3 AM; DHEA, cortisol and the sex steroids (estrogen, progesterone and testosterone) are highest in the morning. In addition, because salivary testing is less expensive than blood testing, multiple and sequential tests of several hormones can be performed, providing even greater amounts of information regarding the complex interaction of hormones.
Third, salivary hormone levels may be even more accurate than serum levels as an indicator of hormone activity. The reason is that all of the hormone in the saliva is the active, free hormone. On the other hand, a large percentage of the hormones in blood are bound to plasma proteins, rendering them inactive. Saliva samples avoid these problems by giving an index of the free hormone levels."
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:00:06
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by Angel1 on August 25, 2003, at 21:49:38
> Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
> best of luck in whatever you choose.**Yes, I read that in her book as well, but that hasn't been the word on the block as far as holistically oriented med practitioners say, MD's included. I wanted to make sure and so screamed until I was heard at my HMO and got the serum hormone tests that I as also testing by by saliva (not cortisol because it's notoriously inaccurate and not DHEA because it was too expensive and the 'jury wasn't in' about it's effect on anything) and the levels coincided. I really had to very strongly insist on getting these serum tests because I was told that the values 'didn't mean anything'???!! What can this belief possibly mean?
Saliva tests have gotten much more sensitive and accurate than when Dr. Vliet wrote her book. Although I agree with much of what she says, I strongly disagree with her insistance that low estrogen is the main culprit for everything. Mine was way too high and caused a pre-cancerous condition. My progesterone was too low and not absorbing well.
Also, did anyone know that oral estrogen (as opposed to skin patches or other transdermal delivery methods) causes low values of human growth hormone? This is NOT a good thing.
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:09:19
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » Angel1, posted by galkeepinon on August 25, 2003, at 22:58:02
One thing to keep in mind is that blood tests portray a range that is for the average person (and many times this average person is a healthy 25 year old male). It does not take into account age, weight, reproductive age, medications being used, etc. My serum hormone values were 'within range, however on the low side' according to the serum values. When my naturopath applied the algorhythms used to compensate for my age, my reproductive status, my weight, medications, and the values then matched. The saliva company I used (ZRT Labs) had a questionnaire that asked all these questions and proceeded from there.
Your problem may not be hormonally related, and not the cause of your problems. But if you DO have a hormonal imbalance, it must be addressed before any lasting change can be expected. Also, if your blood values come result in the 'low/low/normal' or 'high/high/normal' range, explore further.
> You must have posted this while I was replying to the post. lol Will you let us know after you compare the 2? I would be really intrerested in how they compare!??
> I've had so many blood test workups on my hormones because of some major problems and they always turn up ok. It's frustrating, I guess I'm always up to finding something new.
> Please let me know?
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> > Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
> > best of luck in whatever you choose.
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:23:25
In reply to Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by jparsell82 on August 25, 2003, at 11:29:02
Have you talked to anyone who has used this particular test? I think mail-in saliva tests are a great idea but would caution all about the quality of different companies. It's only recently that mail-in, no doctor required saliva tests have become available and jeeze, are they ever hitting the internet! There's a list of reputable labs on this website:
http://www.womensinternational.com/testing2_fs.html
I don't know if any of these offer mail-in testing or require a health practitioner or not, but it would be worth it to talk to some of them and ask their opinion - although it may not be objective if it conflicts with ordering someone else's test over theirs. Their opinion might be helpful, even so.
An even better idea would be to talk to the pharmacists at Women's International Pharmacy (highly respected and reputable) and ask them directly. They have no vested interest in one lab over the other and they're very nice and helpful folks.
You know how things spread like wildfire over the internet when there's a good idea, and they're not always in your best interests. - Barbara
Posted by galkeepinon on August 26, 2003, at 17:01:45
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » jparsell82, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:23:25
Posted by Janis on August 26, 2003, at 18:39:30
In reply to Re: Hormones! Important info, please read » Janis, posted by BarbaraCat on August 23, 2003, at 21:09:16
> Hi Janis,
> What a lucky person you are to have found an MD with this combined background!! It's amazing to me that these interwoven systems are so compartmentalized in our current medical philosophy. No wonder we're all a nation of sick and hurting people. Does your holistic MD prescribe any psych meds for you and if so, what counterbalancing or whole body support methods is he using as well? I'm very much in this camp, so anything you want to discuss/share with me, you have a rapt and interested audience. - Barbara
>
He has no objection to prescribing AD's or even diet pills, etc...things that aren't natural or holistic, but he does like to go over your other possible options with you before he does this...I don't know what other type of things he does to support a person while on things prescribed just to keep symptoms at bay, but I am certain he does take all of it into consideration and adjuncts it with things like a natural liver detox, that type of thing. I have not needed an antidepressant more than once since I have reached homeo-stasis, where the hormomes are balanced- and this was to help me deal with real, situational things in my life. The thing that most impresses me is that I know of several children whom he has treated for allergies, thyroid and adrenal problems and gotten them off AD's, ritalin and anti-psychotics - they are happy well adjusted children now and can go into their teens and developmental years in a natural way. This to me says everything. janis
Posted by McPac on August 26, 2003, at 21:26:15
In reply to Saliva tests and oral estrogen no-no » Angel1, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:00:06
I was reading just a bit about pregnenolone lately...a Dr. saying he loved it for mood,stress type problems.
Any thoughts on pregnenolone?
Posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 1:38:49
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home, posted by jparsell82 on August 26, 2003, at 11:33:28
Is Dr Ward Dean a naturopath..what is his training?
Jan
Posted by galkeepinon on August 27, 2003, at 1:44:27
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » galkeepinon, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:09:19
Hey Barb~~~a woman thing here but I have amenorrhea, have had it for years. I started on the Lex 4 weeks ago. I took a 7 day trial of Progesterone and got a period. Then 2 weeks later w/o progesterone got another one on my own. Now I am happy for this because it is healthy.
But do you have any clue as to what is going on?
I'm wondering if some of these SSRI's can alter the effects of a woman's reproductive *cycle*?
I see my doc about this next week.
> One thing to keep in mind is that blood tests portray a range that is for the average person (and many times this average person is a healthy 25 year old male). It does not take into account age, weight, reproductive age, medications being used, etc. My serum hormone values were 'within range, however on the low side' according to the serum values. When my naturopath applied the algorhythms used to compensate for my age, my reproductive status, my weight, medications, and the values then matched. The saliva company I used (ZRT Labs) had a questionnaire that asked all these questions and proceeded from there.
>
> Your problem may not be hormonally related, and not the cause of your problems. But if you DO have a hormonal imbalance, it must be addressed before any lasting change can be expected. Also, if your blood values come result in the 'low/low/normal' or 'high/high/normal' range, explore further.
>
> > You must have posted this while I was replying to the post. lol Will you let us know after you compare the 2? I would be really intrerested in how they compare!??
> > I've had so many blood test workups on my hormones because of some major problems and they always turn up ok. It's frustrating, I guess I'm always up to finding something new.
> > Please let me know?
> >
> >
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> > > Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
> > > best of luck in whatever you choose.
> >
> >
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Posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 1:46:32
In reply to Saliva tests and oral estrogen no-no » Angel1, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:00:06
Hi, I'm interested. What were your blood levels of estradiol ..or estrogen? and what day of cycle were they done? Also of progesterone ..levels and day of cycle.
That endometrial lining thickening (if that is the precancerous condition??) is more likely caused from being slightly hypothyroid..or even just the antibodies(still euthyroid on TSH)...mine was...also caused very heavy periods
Also I think the blood levels for estradiol are FREE ESTRADIOL...despite what Dr John Ward said
Jan
Posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 2:06:31
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » jparsell82, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:23:25
forgot sorry..the reason some specialist gynocologist trained docs didn't like saliva tests..or had some differing notion (from the naturopath trained doc) that saliva tests were inaccurate was that back in the mid 90's, at least in some parts of the US, the saliva tests used swabs and they found that the swabs actually altered the results of the saliva tests..leading to high estrogen and low progesterone ..I think from memory..and basically they were not consistent with blood tests. ..they blamed the swabs.
I know in Australia they don't use swabs in saliva tests...so I really don't now...although a compounding chemist described some low estrogen symptoms to me that his wife had and then went on to tell me that her saliva test said she had high estrogen and blood test showed low estrogen? So I didn't bother with the saliva tests after hearing what Vliet (and other gyn trained docs and researchers in this hormone area) thought of them.
I did have saliva cortisol (4 times a day ) test though...the docs reckon these are accurate even with the swabs..not in exact measurement amounts ..but accurate for ratios..which are important to know when trying to get a picture of circadian cycle of cortisol...
Perhaps since then the saliva tests have changed and these docs haven't found out?Jan
PS. I cannot comment much as I can't get my estradiol level anywhere even near the bottom of the range and I've been trying for 18 mths, sigh...
PPS this is what makes it sooo difficult for us...the docs themselves can't agree!
Posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 8:49:31
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » jparsell82, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 12:23:25
OK, I looked up some research ..on saliva versus blood testing in progesterone and estradiol...difficult to say.
I have heard from many girls that long term progesterone cream does have an effect..so much so that most stop after a year from too much (if they weren't cycling it)...all I can guess from this is the researchers didn't use a very good cream?? or perhaps as some of their conclusions say..red blood cells are perhaps not an important way of delivering progesterone to target tissues...no idea how it would be transported in that case!
Anyway..here's some resaerch ..just to confuse matters
This study seems to show that salivary progesterone collected early morning works ..doesn't mention if fasting?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11532491&dopt=AbstractRelationship between salivary progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, and cortisol levels throughout the normal menstrual cycle of healthy postmenarcheal girls.
looking at plasma versus saliva tests
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6638098&dopt=Abstract
Progesterone and estradiol in the saliva and plasma during the menstrual cycle
"There was a highly significant correlation between plasma and salivary progesterone levels throughout the menstrual cycle . Free unbound progesterone as determined by equilibrium dialysis gave a mean +/- SE level of 126.8 +/- 6.9 pg/ml during the proliferative phase and increased significantly to 196.8 +/- 18.8 pg/ml during the secretory phase (p less than 0.001). The corresponding levels in the plasma were 88.5 +/- 11.2 pg/ml, which increased significantly to 332.2 +/- 39.2 pg/ml (p less than 0.001). Free progesterone constituted 53.7% and 41.4% of salivary progesterone during the proliferative and secretory phases, respectively, whereas the corresponding percentages in the plasma were 5.8% and 2.6%. Salivary estradiol levels were 5 to 18 and 8 to 35 pg/ml in the proliferative and secretory phases, respectively, but showed no correlation with plasma estradiol levels."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
Salivary progesterone: relation to total and non-protein-bound blood levels.
"The values of non-protein-bound progesterone obtained were significantly and linearly correlated with levels in saliva (r = 0.75, P less than 0.001, d.f. = 34) although the amount of free progesterone in blood was about five times that found in saliva."Now this one is interesting ...different conclusion to heading???
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11809337&dopt=Abstract"We also conclude that the low level of progesterone associated with red cells suggests they are not important in the delivery of progesterone to target tissues."
Salivary, but not serum or urinary levels of progesterone are elevated after topical application of progesterone cream to pre-and postmenopausal women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11106923&dopt=AbstractCONCLUSIONS: Salivary progesterone measurements confirm that topically applied progesterone is absorbed, despite the lack of change in serum progesterone concentrations. However, at the dose administered, serum progesterone levels do not reach those observed after oral or vaginally delivered progesterone preparations. Higher doses may be required to induce biological responses within the endometrium.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11910616&dopt=Abstract
Effect of sequential transdermal progesterone cream on endometrium, bleeding pattern, and plasma progesterone and salivary progesterone levels in postmenopausal women.
Wren BG, McFarland K, Edwards L, O'Shea P, Sufi S, Gross B, Eden JA.
Sydney Menopause Centre, Royal Hospital for Women, Barker Street, Randwick, New South Wales 2031, Australia.BACKGROUND: Transdermal progesterone is being used in some countries as a purported treatment for menopausal symptoms, either alone or prescribed in conjunction with estrogen, but little information exists regarding the biological activity and effectiveness of this method of delivery of progesterone in protecting the endometrium from excess proliferation. This study was designed to evaluate the use of sequential transdermal progesterone. End-points evaluated included endometrial cellular response and bleeding pattern as well as plasma hormone levels and salivary progesterone estimations. METHOD: Twenty-seven postmenopausal women were treated with continuous transdermal estrogen (28-day cycle) and a cream containing 16, 32 or 64 mg of progesterone in each 4-cm extrusion from a tube of Pro-Feme administered daily in a sequential (days 15-28 of cycle) regimen. Blood and endometrial samples were analyzed for progesterone response prior to therapy, after the first 14 days of unopposed transdermal estrogen and following 14 days of transdermal progesterone. Saliva samples were taken during the last 14 days of the 84-day study, when the final progesterone cream therapy was being applied. RESULTS: Hormone assay indicated that physiological levels of estradiol were achieved, but progesterone levels were insufficient to induce any detectable change in the endometrium. Only one patient experienced bleeding during the study period. Levels of salivary progesterone were so variable as to be considered completely unreliable in determining the potential influence on biological activity. INTERPRETATION: Pro-Feme transdermal progesterone administered in a 16-, 32- or 64-mg daily dose for 14 days in a sequential regimen does not appear to be effective in inducing a secretory change in a proliferative endometrium. Salivary progesterone levels were not of value in managing the therapy of postmenopausal women
....
Jan
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 12:12:24
In reply to Re: Receive Mail-In Hormone test from home » BarbaraCat, posted by galkeepinon on August 27, 2003, at 1:44:27
I've read that estrogen can have an effect on serotonin. There are many estrogen receptors in the brain and estrogen is needed to prime serotonin receptors. Now whether it works in reverse, and serotonin affects estrogen, I don't know. You won't be getting periods if your estrogen is in excess and your progesterone is low. The rise and abrupt fall of progesterone and fall of estrogen at the end of our cycle is what causes the uterine lining to shed.
Progesterone 'opposes' estrogen and if you don't have enough, or if you're taking into your body too many estrogenic compounds, one can become 'estrogen dominant'. This is becoming a very common condition anymore, even with males. Many of our pesticides, chlorine compounds in drinking water, hormones used to fatten cattle and increase milk production, are endocrine disruptors. Not only can excess estrogen cause amenorreah, it can cause breast and uterine cancer.
I was getting too much estrogen because I wasn't properly absorbing progesterone in my menopause regime and ended up with endometrial hyperplasia, a precancerous thickening of the uterine lining. Stopping estrogen and taking a mongo dose of progesterone for 14 days made that puppy shed like crazy. Because I'm menopausal, I'm not getting periods anymore, however, it did take care of the excess estrogen problem and hasn't come back. Of course, I'm now taking my hormones transdermally instead of orally, which is necessary for me. You probably don't have endometrial hyperplasia but this just goes to illustrate the mechanisms of progesterone loading.
Sounds like you needed that progesterone to 'oppose' the estrogen to create that uterine shedding. The test will be if you continue to cycle normally if not supplementing with progesterone. Hopefully, your 7 day progesterone course may have reset your hypothalamus towards more balanced hormonal sigalling. If you return to amenorrhea then you have a good clue that you're progesterone deficient or and/or estrogen dominant. I believe there's a difference in one over the other, i.e., estrogen dominence isn't always caused by progesterone deficiency and may require more sleuthing to figure out why. You might also benefit from a good progesterone cream applied for 14 days, but only if it's indicated by your health practitioner. Forget the wild yam creams that don't contain real progesterone. They're worthless. A good one is Pro-Gest by Emerita, but really, don't use it if you don't need it. Excess progesterone can cause depression. Such a fine line we walk. - Barbara
> Hey Barb~~~a woman thing here but I have amenorrhea, have had it for years. I started on the Lex 4 weeks ago. I took a 7 day trial of Progesterone and got a period. Then 2 weeks later w/o progesterone got another one on my own. Now I am happy for this because it is healthy.
> But do you have any clue as to what is going on?
> I'm wondering if some of these SSRI's can alter the effects of a woman's reproductive *cycle*?>
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> > One thing to keep in mind is that blood tests portray a range that is for the average person (and many times this average person is a healthy 25 year old male). It does not take into account age, weight, reproductive age, medications being used, etc. My serum hormone values were 'within range, however on the low side' according to the serum values. When my naturopath applied the algorhythms used to compensate for my age, my reproductive status, my weight, medications, and the values then matched. The saliva company I used (ZRT Labs) had a questionnaire that asked all these questions and proceeded from there.
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> > Your problem may not be hormonally related, and not the cause of your problems. But if you DO have a hormonal imbalance, it must be addressed before any lasting change can be expected. Also, if your blood values come result in the 'low/low/normal' or 'high/high/normal' range, explore further.
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> > > You must have posted this while I was replying to the post. lol Will you let us know after you compare the 2? I would be really intrerested in how they compare!??
> > > I've had so many blood test workups on my hormones because of some major problems and they always turn up ok. It's frustrating, I guess I'm always up to finding something new.
> > > Please let me know?
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> > > > Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who wrote "Screaming to be Heard" says the saliva tests are not valid and a waste of money. She recommends the serum blood tests for the all important hormone levels. According to her, they are much more accurate and the saliva tests do not give accurate results. I had blood drawn today for my hormones and sent the saliva sample about a week ago, so am curious to compare results. I wouldn't waste my money on the saliva tests, but that is just my opinion.
> > > > best of luck in whatever you choose.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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