![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
In reply to tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
> Hi Larry,
> Being probably the newest addition to your fan club<g>...yep, I am amazed at your knowledge level too.Wow! I have a fan club. Coool!
> Wondering about acetylation..
> Does one get an acetylated form of (x) by mixing vinegar with (x)?Acetylation is the equivalent of adding an alcohol to a hydrocarbon (H- from the hydrocarbon, and HO- from the alcohol, forming water). When you react something with vinegar (acetic acid, or now called ethanoic acid), you end up with the acetate (or ethanoate). The latter would have oxygen atoms between the two alkyl groups. When you see the -yl suffix, there are no intervening oxygens. In real life, the acetyl group (CH3-CH2-) is probably added by a substitution reaction (H- slides off, CH3-CH2- slides on), regulated by an enzyme.
> I find your posts very interesting , especially now I have just added tyrosine into my mix of thyroid meds, vitamins and minerals.
>
> I have a long history..mostly chronic fatigue and really cold hands,feet.What's your body weight like? Over? Under?
>Also always craved meat. I could eat a steak 3 meals a day. Also high thirst (perhaps due to the high protein).
Thirst is an obvious sign of diabetes, too. You've been tested for that, I'm sure? Certain kinds of kidney problems increase thirst too.
> Tried hypoglycemic diets(after a GTT test, 1985, with normal fasting blood sugar, reactive hypoglycemia dropping to borderline absolute levels) no effect.
One consequence of reactive hypoglycemia is stimulation of the adrenal gland. That may complicate thyroid function, as adrenal secretions inhibit thyroid hormone release and conversion.
> Also tried 5 years of various SSRI's(1995-2000) no good effect, some scary side effects...like hand tremour, eye tics, altered perception of traffic speed...
I hated that last one very much. I have superb hand-eye coordination, and having my perception of speed altered was something I took very personally, like a fundamental rock-solid aspect of my being had been messed with (apart from the enhanced risk factor in traffic).
> I started on long history of thyroid meds Aug01 ...some improvements, some worsening of symptoms.
> I came across a "post"< http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36074.1 >by someone who had added in phenteramine to their thyroid med mix hoping the dopamine would provide a missing bit of the picture. I thought of tyrosine..and that it too has a dopamine pathway..so I am trialling that.About phentermine....just because someone has identified an effect of this drug, wherein a dopaminergic process in one control centre of the brain is activated, does not mean that the drug is a dopamine enhancer, in general. It's just one of the things it does. I know of people who cook on their car engines (on long road trips), but that's not what the engine is "doing".
I'm not criticizing your idea....you're following up on the dopamine regulatory effect on TRH....I'm just saying there's more to phentermine than that.
> I am “starving” about 1/2 hour after I take say 7.5mcg of T3(slow release)..so I thought the dopamine in the tyrosine may block this “starvation” the T3 causes. Thyroid extract(contains T4 +T3 +) also causes an increase in hunger but not quite as pronounced..
I'm a little unclear on the dosage schedule for the T3. Do you take it more than once in a given day? Even an extended release formulation is going to be a poor substitute for the body's production of T3; pills give concentration peaks and valleys, compared to relatively constant (or demand appropriate) T3 production by the organs.
> I thought it looked like I was adding in only a bit of the picture and not the other bits..so I started adding in tyrosine to the mix to try to get some of the missing pathways..perhaps the dopamine to help with temperature and appetite suppression...and perhaps I needed to replace mor than the thyroid pathways if something was missing higher up in the chain.
There are a huge number of interactions between the various glands and organs. It's going to take you some time and some experimentation to determine how you can help your body regulate itself so that you're more comfortable. I'm sure you can do it, but it may not be obvious just how you are going to accomplish it.
Serotonin inhibits thyroid function. Norepinephrine stimulates it. Leptin (hunger modulation) also changes thyoid activity, as does insulin. CRH (indirect adrenal modulator) shuts down T3 production, and so does cortisol. Immune activation (by e.g. cytokines or leukotrienes) can block T3 conversion. I'm just tossing out some ideas about different aspects of physiology that may be the root of your personal thyroid trouble. Which one(s)? <shrug> It's a detective story, and you're the plot.
> The tyrosine appeared to help with the appetite and for the first 2 days just 500mg of tyrosine bought my body temp up about 1.2C to almost 37degrees..all day, although a sweat session around 4am in the morning managed to lower the temp again...both days.(stopped by adding in a tad of estradiol gel transdermally)
> This temp rise only lasted for the first 2 days..on the 3rd, 4th day, it no longer seems to be working..darnDid you try a dose increase? 500 mg is really not very much tyrosine, in the greater scheme of things. Moreover, tyrosine is a direct precursor of levothyroxine (T4).
> I will keep trying. I'm thinking I must have something wrong/missing I the way I break down protein or my body wouldn't have craved it so much all my life..
That's possible. I'm an obligate carnivore, too. It may be the mineral content. Meat is full of zinc, and selenium, and so on.
About the digestive aspect.... For meat digestion, try taking bromelain (which also has immune modulatory effects), TMG, and B-12.
> so I need to find out where..hopefully by working backwards and replace the missing bits...right.
The thyroid enzymes that are core to normal thyroid function require selenium (as selenocysteine). If you're not already taking it, get some selenium yeast. Most selenium supplements are from selenium yeast, but I have seen some that mention selenate or selenite. Avoid the latter.
Selenium is also a neuroprotective antioxidant. Your body may be under massive oxidative stress from the chronic thyroid problems. It's possible your selenium is totally tied up elsewhere. Moreover, if you have amalgam fillings in your teeth, you may have high mercury exposure, which severely impacts selenium and all its enzymes.
The fact that you're needing to take T3 implicates selenium, at least indirectly (there are always other factors that may dominate), but the conversion of levothyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) via deiodinase (three types) requires selenium.
Another way to help protect your selenium (and to deal with oxidative stress in general), is to add in some alphalipoic acid. It's sometimes called the "universal antioxidant" because it is both lipid and water soluble, acts as both an antioxidant and antireductant, and helps recycle both vitamins C and E, enhancing their activities, as well.
If you're under oxidative stress (I really think you are), then fish oil will help restore membranes and receptors to their normal functional condition.
It is also possible (you mention chronic fatigue early on), that you would benefit from Enada NADH. It has been a nearly miraculous addition to my own regimen. It directly enhances energy production at the mitochondrial level.
> That is why I would favour trying tyrosine over phenylanaine for starters, less enzymes, links etc to go thru.
Only one less. And you lose the benefits that only accrue via alternative pathways available to phenylalanine. Not a big difference, perhaps, but you may want to do that experiment later.
> If all the tyrsoine bits work, I guess then go back to the phenylanaine looking for more missing pieces..
Hey, you're thinking like me.... <wink>
> I do have antiTPO, anti TG antibodies, a small thyroidwith nodules on ultrasound..which shows it has been struggling to keep up in my books..
You would benefit from any interventions that reduce your immune system hyper-reactivity. That begins by getting oxidative stress under control. Then, later, you get into further interventions, if they're still required.
>and when I was born my Mum had to give me antihistamines so I could breathe while sucking (little blue pills..phernergan I think)..so I do have something up with histamine response I guess too
I doubt you've carried anything over into adulthood, unless you're reactive to allergens. Even totally normal people get airway opening from antihistamines. That's one of the reasons they're banned in competitive athletics.
> I'm really struggling with all of this altrhough I have spent the past 2 1/2 years trying to research the net, like you said..a lot of stuff is pretty geekish and although I have figured out that "ase" on the end means enzyme, that's about it!That is way important! You have to learn some geek-speak. I bet you know more than that, too. You learn more and more, every time you look at these ideas.
>I really need some courses, but I haven't found any so far to take me thru basic chemistry, biochem, physiol up to this level, lol.
You're doing pretty well right now. Seriously.
> Thaks for reading this,I know most detail has n been left out, ANY suggestions welcomed
> JanMy pleasure. More questions welcomed.
Lar
Posted by Kacy on August 19, 2003, at 12:06:29
In reply to Re: tyrosine » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
I run cool, as well.
I haven't since I began Straterra in January. I didn't have to use sweats and sweaters around the house in cooler months and I'm finding out what it has been like for others to handle 100º in the shade.
Straterra is an NE uptake inhibitor.
Posted by andys on August 19, 2003, at 16:45:40
In reply to tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
I too am on Cytomel (T3) and am getting benefit from L-tyrosine and DLPA (Yes, larry, I found the non-acetyl version of tyrosine more effective, thanks).
I found an article that it is pertinent to the subject: It discusses the interplay of thyroid with the catacholemines (dopamine and norepinepherine). Although not stated in the article, it makes sense that supplements that support catecholemines might be supportive of best thyroid function. The site is The American College of NeuroPsychoPharmacology, at http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000097/CH095.html
You mentioned phentermine, it is the best antidepressant response I have EVER HAD! (but couldn't stay on it, due to insomnia and high blood pressure). As Larry mentioned, it was some ASPECT of the phentermine that helped. I sure wish I could figure out the aspect, since it would give me a future worth living.
Posted by andys on August 19, 2003, at 16:48:53
In reply to Re: tyrosine » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
Larry,
You've mentioned TMG before, and I even bought some, but haven't taken it yet, because I'm having trouble getting a grasp on just what it does. (I'm taking tyrosine and phenylalanine, in the hopes of increasing the catecholemines).
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 20:03:48
In reply to Re: TMG » Larry Hoover, posted by andys on August 19, 2003, at 16:48:53
> Larry,
> You've mentioned TMG before, and I even bought some, but haven't taken it yet, because I'm having trouble getting a grasp on just what it does. (I'm taking tyrosine and phenylalanine, in the hopes of increasing the catecholemines).
> Thanks,
> AndyThe reason I keep mentioning TMG is because it provides an alternative mechanism for the recycling of methionine from homocysteine, and thereby promotes natural (i.e. your body's production of...) SAMe.
Here's the simplified cycle.....
You eat protein containing the amino acid methionine (which is rather unique, in that it contains a sulphur atom). The methionine enters the liver, where it has adenosine attached to it at the sulphur atom position, yielding S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe). The S-adenosyl just means that adenosine has been attached at the sulphur position. SAMe is the universal methyl-donor. Methyl donation is sometimes called "one-carbon metabolism" because it involves the transfer of a CH3- group from one molecule to another. Anyway, methylation is a critical step in neurotransmitter synthesis, and DNA activation/transcription, and all sorts of stuff.
Later on, the demethylated (used) SAMe loses the adenosine group, and you're left with homocysteine (methionine minus a methyl group is called homocysteine). Homocysteine can be converted back to methionine again, if you've got enough folate and vitamin B-12 (which becomes a methyl donor to homocysteine), but for many depressives, this recycling process just doesn't work right. Homocysteine accumulates, and starts to damage the artery walls (leading to heart disease and other nasties), and also contributes to a methionine deficit (and, thereby, a SAMe deficit).
This is where TMG (betaine) enters the picture. There's another way to remethylate homocysteine back to methionine, and that's via the liver enzyme called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase. Trimethylglycine gives up a methyl group to homocysteine, and you get dimethylglycine and methionine. BTW, the dimethylglycine goes on to do other good things, but you get your homocysteine levels to fall and your methionine levels to rise without depending on a mechanism that isn't working right (the folate/B-12 process).
Hope that wasn't too long-winded.
Lar
P.S. About dose....
Take it in the morning (I find it to be very activating). Maybe one gram (1,000 mg)/day to start. If you find any adverse events, like insomnia, you should find that temporarily stopping the supplement will correct that fairly quickly. I can't take it every day, but I know some people who do. I think it's a very individual thing, to work out a tolerable dose.
Posted by andys on August 20, 2003, at 10:15:11
In reply to Re: TMG » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 20:03:48
Lar,
I consider myself a charter member of your fan club. Your TMG description is great, but reads a bit like alphabet soup, to us mere mortals. Let me see if I can boil it down into simple terms, then tell me if I’m right:
First, I can’t take SAMe, it triggers hypomanic anxiety. So I would want to take a dose that gives other benefits, without creating a large dose of SAMe. So I’m thinking 750 mg. in the morning.
As I understand it, this would give me the benefit of getting my homocystine levels lowered (to protect artery walls), and keep methionine levels high. And although the methionine completes the recycle into SAMe, this is a more therapeutic process (recycling homocystine), rather than taking supplemental SAMe directly.
Does my synopsis sound right to you?
Since insomnia is a major problem for me, I hope I can get away with taking a small dose of TMG.
Grateful as always,
Andy
Posted by DSCH on August 21, 2003, at 18:19:13
In reply to Re: TMG » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 20:03:48
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 7:54:50
In reply to Re: TMG » Larry Hoover, posted by andys on August 20, 2003, at 10:15:11
> Lar,
> I consider myself a charter member of your fan club. Your TMG description is great, but reads a bit like alphabet soup, to us mere mortals. Let me see if I can boil it down into simple terms, then tell me if I’m right:My family is always saying to me, TMI! <too much information>
> First, I can’t take SAMe, it triggers hypomanic anxiety. So I would want to take a dose that gives other benefits, without creating a large dose of SAMe. So I’m thinking 750 mg. in the morning.
That sounds good.
> As I understand it, this would give me the benefit of getting my homocystine levels lowered (to protect artery walls), and keep methionine levels high.
Yes.
> And although the methionine completes the recycle into SAMe, this is a more therapeutic process (recycling homocystine), rather than taking supplemental SAMe directly.
Very much so.
> Does my synopsis sound right to you?
Yes.
> Since insomnia is a major problem for me, I hope I can get away with taking a small dose of TMG.
I hope so, too.
> Grateful as always,
> AndyMy pleasure.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 12:56:07
In reply to Long-Winded = Good! (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 21, 2003, at 18:19:13
Then I must be very good. <wry grin>
Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 15:27:23
In reply to Re: Long-Winded = Good! » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 12:56:07
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 16:45:27
In reply to Does Betaine Hydrochloride = TMG? (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 15:27:23
In the end, I guess you still get betaine, but the HCl salt has a highly labile proton (it's acidic enough to burn your esophagus, for example).
You should look for a product labelled as:
1. TMG (as far as I know, TMG is never the hydrochloride).
2. anhydrous betaine
3. betaine free-baseThose are all equivalent, chemically. They're just different ways of saying the same thing.
I know Source Naturals has a TMG product, which is also a very cost-effective one, compared to bulk purchases I've made in the past.
Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 17:26:04
In reply to Re: Does Betaine Hydrochloride = TMG? No. » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 16:45:27
Larry,
Thanks for that tip. GNC only stocks betaine hydrochloride. Wild Oats carries Source Naturals TMG but the local one is out of that today.
As a follow up, what do you know about OPCs (Oligomeric Proanthocyanidin Complexes) like Pycnogenol and grape seed extract? Hype and profiteering or no?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 17:40:31
In reply to Pick Larry's brain today! Next up: OPCs » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 17:26:04
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for that tip.You're welcome.
>GNC only stocks betaine hydrochloride. Wild Oats carries Source Naturals TMG but the local one is out of that today.
I have to get mine by mail order, and deal with Customs. You got it easy, eh?
> As a follow up, what do you know about OPCs (Oligomeric Proanthocyanidin Complexes) like Pycnogenol and grape seed extract? Hype and profiteering or no?
Tell you what. You tell me what hype you're referring to, and I'll give you my assessment of the evidence.
Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 17:56:04
In reply to Re: Pick Larry's brain today! Next up: OPCs » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 17:40:31
OK, here are a few initial hits I have for starters. I started looking into these as they are among the OTC supplements Dr. Amen has noticed some success with.
http://www.pycnogenol.com/ (Woah! Professional Flash intro!)
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/oligo5-2.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 18:37:28
In reply to OPCs (Pycnogenol/Pine Bark and Grape Seed) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 17:56:04
> OK, here are a few initial hits I have for starters. I started looking into these as they are among the OTC supplements Dr. Amen has noticed some success with.
With respect to which disorder?
> http://www.pycnogenol.com/ (Woah! Professional Flash intro!)
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/oligo5-2.html
>
> http://borntoexplore.org/pinebark.htm
>
> http://kiwi.hypermart.net/diabetes.html
>Definitely some benefits, but there's a bit of hype on the websites. For example, I'm not seeing any evidence for the ADHD link on Pubmed.
Considering the patented Pycnogenol is supposed to be very expensive, I see no reason to select it over other OPCs. If grape seed extract, hawthorne, or cranberry are cheaper, go for it. I'm going to try some.
Lar
Posted by tealady on August 22, 2003, at 19:57:48
In reply to Re: tyrosine » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
LaRRY. Thank you soooo much. You have given me many ideas to try, and much to learn, a lot of hope.
>The thyroid enzymes that are core to normal thyroid function require selenium (as selenocysteine). If you're not already taking it, get some selenium yeast. Most selenium supplements are from selenium yeast, but I have seen some that mention selenate or selenite. Avoid the latter.
Yes, I was taking the yeast form..selenomethionine?.
I did read somwhere about the different pathways of the forms, but have forgotten,sigh... Most on the thyroid forum seem to take the selenite form as they are worried about the yeast with coeliac, which sems to occur with a lot in a mild form...>Selenium is also a neuroprotective antioxidant. Your body may be under massive oxidative stress from the chronic thyroid problems. It's possible your selenium is totally tied up elsewhere. Moreover, if you have amalgam fillings in your teeth, you may have high mercury exposure, which severely impacts selenium and all its enzymes.
Yes, know about the amalgam..have lots, removed 6 small ones..12 or so biggies to go..some next week(hopefully). I do take some selenium beforehand and after to help.
>The fact that you're needing to take T3 implicates selenium, at least indirectly (there are always other factors that may dominate), but the conversion of levothyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) via deiodinase (three types) requires selenium.
Yes, I've read about D1,D2,D3..but got lost. I know they exist though<g> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/5/4/306.html
I found personally 50mg was too much for me..and looked at my blood tests and my selenium was above range, with no selenium.
My Mum also found 25mg was too much for her. Her blood tested out even higher. The symptoms for "too much " are ..metallic taste in mouth, increased fatigue, and weight gain, and symptoms occur within a few days. It depends on the selenium content of the soil where your food is grown, cattle graze etc. I looked up the soil contents over the world and found some parts of Queensland have high levels, the US is pretty low in general.
On the thyroid forum, some have really been helped a lot by selenium, most find a range of 50-100 mg is enough.
This is one I think is a biggie too.
With me it must be the "other factors".>If you're under oxidative stress (I really think you are), then fish oil will help restore membranes and receptors to their normal functional condition.
I couldn't agree more about the oxidative stress.
I had tried fish oil ...still have some in my fridge, but when I broke open the capsule it was rancid smelling. So I stopped using them. I had also heard of the mercury toxicity of fish making them not desirable to eat too much of. I also use to get "fish burps" and was told this was as the fish oil was rancid?
I've ordered in some fish oil of a different type..made from sardines and anchovies?, which supposedly have a lower mercury content. I'm in Oz and there appears to be no mercury free here..although one brand claims they source fish oil tested for mercury levels and only buy the top grade of 5 grades..but they only sell to practioners at present. Couldn't find anyone to sell it to me so far.I already order my methcobalamin and P5P - B6 in from the US. I get hydrocobalamin injections here...the choice being hydrocobalamin or cyanocobalamin... ..not available over here. So far have managed to get thru customs.
Now looks like betaine(TMG) and NADH are also not available here..looked in past 2 days. Thanks, I hadn't heard of those.
I have tried years ago niacinamide,,didn't notice anything.I have also just recently started taking betaine hydrochloride just after)or during) a large protein meal..in case it helps with digestion, but I can only take on a full stomach. The first time I could feel the acid..and I have never had ny IBS or acid before or since. At he same time as the betaine hydrochloride I have tried digestive enzymes..bromelaine, pepsin and enteric coated pancreatin,papain and protease. Unfortunately hey are no longer available here either, sigh. I can get just bromelaine and papain..not enteric coated though. Sometimes I drink pineapple juice.
When I lived in Qld, I grew pawpaw trees. I always felt better with a pawpaw after a steak meal...so there is something to the digestion bit.
Thanks again Larry..more later
Jan
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 20:06:21
In reply to Re: OPCs (Pycnogenol/Pine Bark and Grape Seed) » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 18:37:28
Well the ADD/ADHD site went into about how it presumably retards breakdown of dopamine and norepinepherine (MAO-B!? *quizzical look* The reference is presumably "The ADD Nutrition Solution" by Marcia Zimmerman). As I suspect the major contributor to my problems has been pre-diabetic hypoglycemia and hyperinsulinism the claims of preventing microhaemorages were interesting too. Above all it is touted as an Ueber-Antioxidant which acts in synergy with other vitamins and is a vasodiliator to boot (a nice change of pace for a former caffiene abuser like myself).
Trader Joe's had Trader Darwin's Pycnogenol 50x25mg for ten bucks, which is the least expensive I've found with that French trademarked name (which on the upside means the extract has been handled to pharmaceutical standards with government oversight), so I sprang for a test drive which I'll start tomorrow. Wild Oats had Solaray Grapenol 60x30mg for thirteen and Nature's Way Dr. Masquelier's Grape Seed OPC 90x75mg for twenty-eight, which is probably the best deal of all.
Hey, Dr. Bob, I used the double double quotes! ;-)
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 20:18:17
In reply to Re: OPCs (Pycnogenol/Pine Bark and Grape Seed) » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 18:37:28
> > OK, here are a few initial hits I have for starters. I started looking into these as they are among the OTC supplements Dr. Amen has noticed some success with.
>
> With respect to which disorder?Sorry I didn't quite catch your meaning the first time around. Here's *that* link...
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/supplements/default.asp
"Prefrontal cortex problems (typical ADD like symptoms)
People with PFC (prefrontal cortex problems) seem to have lower availability of the neurotransmitter dopamine. I frequently prescribe the amino acid L-tyrosine in doses of 500-1500mg two to three times a day for adults and 100-500mg two to three times a day for children under 10. L-tyrosine is the amino acid building block for dopamine. It is reported to increase the level of phenylethylamine (PEA), a mild stimulant that is found in high concentrations in chocolate. Many of my patients have reported that it is helpful for them. It is softer in its effect, but nonetheless they notice a positive effect. Because of absorption patterns I recommend that they take it on an empty stomach (a half-hour before meals or an hour after meals). I have not seen any side effects with L-tyrosine, except for mild weight loss. If there are cingulate problems, l-tyrosine by itself can increase the intensity of overfocused symptoms. Symptoms of tyrosine deficiency include hypothyroidism, low blood pressure, low body temperature (cold hands and feet), and restless leg syndrome.
Grade seed or pine bark extract has also shown some mild benefit for pfc issues. Grape seed or pine bark extract are proanthocyanidin compound. These compounds have been found to increase blood flow and they act as superantioxidants, 20-50 times as powerful as vitamin E. There are no published studies with grape seed or pine bark extract in ADD, but there are a number of published case reports. There is a body of medical literature that says these compounds are very helpful for people with varicose veins. If you have ADD and varicose veins then grape seed or pine bark extract may be for you.
Crystal, age 48, came to the clinic for symptoms of ADD. Her whole life she had been restless, inattentive, easily distracted, terribly disorganized, and impulsive. After her third child she also developed terrible varicose veins, which I had noticed in the initial interview. When we talked about treatment options for her Type 1 Classic ADD she said that she wanted to try the grape seed extract. Then she would see about other options. After 3 weeks she noticed that she felt better energy and her legs looked and felt better. Eventually we added L-tyrosine to give her more help with focus, but the regimen has worked well for her over the past several years."
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 20:56:12
In reply to Re: OPCs (Pycnogenol/Pine Bark and Grape Seed) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 20:06:21
While I'm at it... one more link.
This is the Nature's Way product I saw at Wild Oats that looked like a good bargain in comparison to the various Pycnogenol brands while appearing more "serious/genuine" than generic "grape seed extract".
http://www.naturesway.com/products_catalog/database/index.asp?details_id=-981460679
Which goes so far as to put Dr. Masquelier's picture and signature on the bottle! LOL
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 21:15:04
In reply to Re: tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 22, 2003, at 19:57:48
> LaRRY. Thank you soooo much. You have given me many ideas to try, and much to learn, a lot of hope.
Hope, that's very special. I'm glad to be a part of that.
> >The thyroid enzymes that are core to normal thyroid function require selenium (as selenocysteine). If you're not already taking it, get some selenium yeast. Most selenium supplements are from selenium yeast, but I have seen some that mention selenate or selenite. Avoid the latter.
>
> Yes, I was taking the yeast form..selenomethionine?.Selenomethionine and selenocysteine are both present in selenium yeast, but the former in much greater concentration.
> I did read somwhere about the different pathways of the forms, but have forgotten,sigh... Most on the thyroid forum seem to take the selenite form as they are worried about the yeast with coeliac, which sems to occur with a lot in a mild form...
I don't have the links at hand, but selenite just doesn't yield the same biochemical results. About yeast, I'm still undecided if that is a cause or a result. So-called leaky gut syndrome isn't yet clearly described, insofar as etiology, and thus, I'm not certain if "curing" that syndrome would not perhaps also fix the yeast sensitivity.
> >Selenium is also a neuroprotective antioxidant. Your body may be under massive oxidative stress from the chronic thyroid problems. It's possible your selenium is totally tied up elsewhere. Moreover, if you have amalgam fillings in your teeth, you may have high mercury exposure, which severely impacts selenium and all its enzymes.
>
> Yes, know about the amalgam..have lots, removed 6 small ones..12 or so biggies to go..some next week(hopefully). I do take some selenium beforehand and after to help.There's not much more you can do, IMHO, than maintain good selenium stores. Chelation therapy, as with EDTA, does more harm than good, in situations where there is chronic heavy metal exposure. In acute exposure, you want to get rid of all the free metal you can. In chronic exposure, you're as likely to remove all the beneficial minerals like zinc, as you are to get a significant amount of e.g. mercury out of the body.
> >The fact that you're needing to take T3 implicates selenium, at least indirectly (there are always other factors that may dominate), but the conversion of levothyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) via deiodinase (three types) requires selenium.
>
> Yes, I've read about D1,D2,D3..but got lost. I know they exist though<g> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/5/4/306.htmlExcellent article. Thanks for the link. It indicates that alphalipoic acid is contraindicated in those with T4 to T3 conversion, so one bit of my advice must be retracted. I'm certainly going to look into that, as antioxidant therapy is generally beneficial in thyroid disease, but here, it seems, one of the better antioxidants has a contrary effect.
> I found personally 50mg was too much for me..and looked at my blood tests and my selenium was above range, with no selenium.
Selenosis (excess selenium) can have similar symptoms to selenium deficiency. Have you had your water tested, by any chance?
> My Mum also found 25mg was too much for her. Her blood tested out even higher. The symptoms for "too much " are ..metallic taste in mouth, increased fatigue, and weight gain, and symptoms occur within a few days. It depends on the selenium content of the soil where your food is grown, cattle graze etc. I looked up the soil contents over the world and found some parts of Queensland have high levels, the US is pretty low in general.
So, you're in Queensland? Have you any knowledge about your local environment, with respect to selenium?
> On the thyroid forum, some have really been helped a lot by selenium, most find a range of 50-100 mg is enough.
> This is one I think is a biggie too.
> With me it must be the "other factors".I was trying to keep it simple, as it gets complex very quickly.....but do you use zinc? Were you tested for that?
> >If you're under oxidative stress (I really think you are), then fish oil will help restore membranes and receptors to their normal functional condition.
> I couldn't agree more about the oxidative stress.
> I had tried fish oil ...still have some in my fridge, but when I broke open the capsule it was rancid smelling. So I stopped using them.If they smell rancid before use, then they are spoiled. Sorry. I hope you find a fresh supply.
> I had also heard of the mercury toxicity of fish making them not desirable to eat too much of.
There is no detectable mercury in fish oil processed for human consumption. Mercury binds tightly to protein, and all protein is removed from the fish oil to extend its shelf life. Mercury is insoluble in the oil. Only crude (impure) fish oil, the sort fed to fish in captivity, may have mercury still present. Fish flesh is a mercury risk. Not fish oil.
>I also use to get "fish burps" and was told this was as the fish oil was rancid?
Yes, that's the primary cause. Another is taking it on an empty stomach. Stomach acid will make it go rancid right in your tummy. Same result.
Take fish oil with your largest, fattiest meal of the day. That reduces exposure to acid (it's like buffering the oil), and promotes bile release, which maximizes uptake.
> I've ordered in some fish oil of a different type..made from sardines and anchovies?, which supposedly have a lower mercury content. I'm in Oz and there appears to be no mercury free here..although one brand claims they source fish oil tested for mercury levels and only buy the top grade of 5 grades..but they only sell to practioners at present. Couldn't find anyone to sell it to me so far.
Fish oil is a world commodity, like coconut oil. Fish oils in Britain and America are mercury free, so I can't quite figure out why Aussie products would be any different.
> I already order my methcobalamin and P5P - B6 in from the US. I get hydrocobalamin injections here...the choice being hydrocobalamin or cyanocobalamin... ..not available over here. So far have managed to get thru customs.
>
> Now looks like betaine(TMG) and NADH are also not available here..looked in past 2 days. Thanks, I hadn't heard of those.The NADH may be particularly helpful (intuition).
> I have tried years ago niacinamide,,didn't notice anything.
>
> I have also just recently started taking betaine hydrochloride just after)or during) a large protein meal..in case it helps with digestion, but I can only take on a full stomach. The first time I could feel the acid..and I have never had ny IBS or acid before or since.Betaine hydrochloride is not the same thing as TMG. There's quite a bit of nomenclature confusion around these two, but trimethylglycine (also known as anhydrous betaine, or betaine free-base) can be precitated as a salt out of hydrochloric acid, yielding betaine hydrochloride. The acid functional group is really a protonated amine (NH4+), but as amines go, this one really likes to get rid of that acid bit. Betaine HCl can cause acid burns in the esophagus, and can damage the stomach lining (if not taken with care).
I recommend the use of the anhydrous form, TMG. It's mildly sweet, and dissolves quite readily in water. It can't burn you, like the other stuff can.
> At he same time as the betaine hydrochloride I have tried digestive enzymes..bromelaine, pepsin and enteric coated pancreatin,papain and protease. Unfortunately hey are no longer available here either, sigh. I can get just bromelaine and papain..not enteric coated though. Sometimes I drink pineapple juice.
Bromelain has many other benefits apart from its proteolytic activity. It is an anti-inflammatory and immune regulator, among other things. It's derived from the stem of the raw pineapple plant, so I don't know if there's any similar benefit from the cooked (pasteurized) juice. I was amazed to discover that bromelain is absorbed into the blood, whole. It is a huge protein, but it leaves the gut somehow. There are some unanswered questions, like how it avoids inducing an allergic response, but it seems to retain activity in the blood. There's an excellent monograph on it at the Thorne site, but I don't have the link handy.
> When I lived in Qld, I grew pawpaw trees. I always felt better with a pawpaw after a steak meal...so there is something to the digestion bit.
> Thanks again Larry..more later
> JanGlad to chat. Keep the hope. There's lots to sort out, yet.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 21:47:33
In reply to Nature's Way Tru-OPC's(TM), posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 20:56:12
> While I'm at it... one more link.
>
> This is the Nature's Way product I saw at Wild Oats that looked like a good bargain in comparison to the various Pycnogenol brands while appearing more "serious/genuine" than generic "grape seed extract".
>
> http://www.naturesway.com/products_catalog/database/index.asp?details_id=-981460679
>
> Which goes so far as to put Dr. Masquelier's picture and signature on the bottle! LOL
>Aahhh! You *like* hype. <heh>
Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 23:19:43
In reply to Re: Nature's Way Tru-OPC's(TM), posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 21:47:33
> Aahhh! You *like* hype. <heh>
>
> LarI suppose I'm not entirely immune. ;-) That aside, I'm a bit leary of the super-cheap stuff stocked by the corner drug store given the lack of FDA oversight on supplements.
Anyway, Trader Darwin's Pycnogenol gets a test drive starting tomorrow. They recommend 1 mg/kg/day so I am taking four of the 25 mg tablets. Should I spread them throughout the day? I'm thinking one each with breakfast and dinner and two with lunch.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 23, 2003, at 9:23:47
In reply to Re: OPCs (Pycnogenol/Pine Bark and Grape Seed) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 22, 2003, at 20:06:21
Posted by tealady on September 5, 2003, at 7:44:31
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 11:19:50
>(I'm currently on 500 mg. tyrosine, but reduced to 5 mg. NADH, because of growing anxiety and insomnia). Interestingly, these side effects started when I DROPPED phenylalanine (I theorized that tyrosine by itself was having more effect, without phenylalanine).
> As another side note, I just restarted Cytomel (T3 thyroid), after reading an article about the interactions of thyroid and catecholemines, hoping I would respond better to cytomel, now that i'm on catecholemine supplements.T3 could be causing the anxiety too..did you figure out what caused the anxiety? Was it the drop in phenylalanine?
Jan
Posted by andys on September 5, 2003, at 10:47:38
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by tealady on September 5, 2003, at 7:44:31
I too am in a similar situation, am on Cytomel, tyrosine and phenylalanine, and forced to lower NADH to 5 mg.. I am also on Dexedrine. I also read that the catecholemines (tyr & phenyl) could help cytomel (and also read that they help dexedrine). With this combo, I have to CLOBBER myself with sleep meds (1 mg. klonopin, 15 mg. restoril, 300 mg. neurontin, and 100 mg. seroquel). But the net effect is an improvement (better energy in the day, and a good night's sleep). My sleep meds probably have some anti-anxiety benefits too (klonopin for sure does).
This is the end of the thread.
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