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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dragonslayer on July 20, 2003, at 20:55:14
In reply to Very Important Please Read, posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 18:36:50
or a shock value question?
Posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 20:57:34
In reply to Re: Very Important Please Read, posted by Ame Sans Vie on July 20, 2003, at 19:10:20
Thanks! Your answer is VERY much appreciated.
Although I got another question :I’m going to take ecstasy next Sunday & because of klonopin’s long halflife, theres going to be some klonopin left in my system. (guessing .12mgs)
Question : will it still be generally safe to take ecstasy that night? (considering the very small amount of klonopin left in my system)
Posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 21:05:21
In reply to Re: Very Important Please Read, posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 20:57:34
nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like that..
All answers are VERY much appreciated.
thank you agen
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2003, at 21:31:19
In reply to nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 21:05:21
First question is how far are you taking the two drugs apart?
Second. I feel it necessary to warn you that ecstacy is a potent and selective serotonin receptor neurotoxin. The neurotoxicity sets in
on the first dose. The serotonin system is one of the most crutial happiness regulating centers in the brain. You don't want to &$%^ this one up.Linkadge
Posted by jay beck on July 20, 2003, at 22:33:40
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2003, at 21:31:19
benzos have no health contradictions with MDMA. although they could take away some of the speediness of the roll. what yopu really need to avoid with MDMA is MAOIs and DXM.
Posted by theo on July 20, 2003, at 23:04:36
In reply to Very Important Please Read, posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 18:36:50
Posted by Nissy on July 20, 2003, at 23:47:12
In reply to Very Important Please Read, posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 18:36:50
> (Plugging is rectal administration or putting the drug up your bum)
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob,
I have a question for you. Why would anyone want to put something up their butt if they can just swallow it? Fill me in please. I am seriously interested in your answer.
Nissy
Posted by Carlos on July 21, 2003, at 2:49:50
In reply to Re: Very Important Please Read, posted by Nissy on July 20, 2003, at 23:47:12
>
> > (Plugging is rectal administration or putting the drug up your bum)
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Bob,
> I have a question for you. Why would anyone want to put something up their butt if they can just swallow it? Fill me in please. I am seriously interested in your answer.
> Nissy
>
I was once told that rectal administration has a higher absorbtion rate as apposed to oral. Something to do with bypassing the gut and larger mucus membrane? I don't see any use for "plugging" klonopin though.
Posted by stjames on July 21, 2003, at 14:44:22
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2003, at 21:31:19
> Second. I feel it necessary to warn you that ecstacy is a potent and selective serotonin receptor neurotoxin. The neurotoxicity sets in
> on the first dose.In over 200 doses I have no neurotoxicity. Given that ecstacy has been around for decades, you would think this "neurotoxicity" would be well reported.
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2003, at 15:27:38
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by stjames on July 21, 2003, at 14:44:22
It is almost impossible for the human brain to recognize that it is dammaged, especially when the dammage is to something as elusive as the serotogenic system.
Brain dammage from this drug is *well documented* The latest finding upon examination of experienced post mortem ex users (died of heat exhaustion) was that 35% of the serotogenic synapses were totally fried. I will look for the study.
Just type in (on any search engine) MDMA neurotoxicity, and read tons of info for yourself.I mean really, you're on a page that deals with
emotional healing. That must mean your emotions are sick. Are you saying that 200 doses of Ex had nothing to do with that.
Linkadge
Posted by stjames on July 21, 2003, at 18:00:16
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by linkadge on July 21, 2003, at 15:27:38
>
> Brain dammage from this drug is *well documented* The latest finding upon examination of experienced post mortem ex users (died of heat exhaustion) was that 35% of the serotogenic synapses were totally fried. I will look for the study.Hypertherma is documented to cause neurological
damage. Don;t over heat while taking MDMA. I have read the studies and came to different conculsion that you.
Posted by janejj on July 21, 2003, at 21:46:53
In reply to Very Important Please Read, posted by bob scott on July 20, 2003, at 18:36:50
Well yeah it is safe I would imagine.
I mean you can get sub-lingual drugs, which by- pass the the stomach and therefore are absorbed directly into the bloodstream. the same would go for sticking it up your bum as well, I would think!
Don't rely on my words though, you should ask a medical professional.
janejj
Posted by linkadge on July 22, 2003, at 6:24:51
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by stjames on July 21, 2003, at 18:00:16
It's your brain, go ahead :)
Linkadge
Posted by gabbix2 on July 22, 2003, at 18:54:05
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by stjames on July 21, 2003, at 18:00:16
Using ecstacy is likely to cause depression later on in life, it causes a surge of dopamine and serotonin to be released but unlike many other recreational drugs permanently damages the receptor sites. Unfortunately this isn't anti-drug propaganda. Just thought I'd let you know.
Posted by stjames on July 23, 2003, at 16:32:24
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like » stjames, posted by gabbix2 on July 22, 2003, at 18:54:05
> Using ecstacy is likely to cause depression later on in life, it causes a surge of dopamine and serotonin to be released but unlike many other recreational drugs permanently damages the receptor sites. Unfortunately this isn't anti-drug propaganda. Just thought I'd let you know.
Funny, I know many people who took XTC in the 1980's who do not have depression.
Posted by mattdds on July 23, 2003, at 16:37:15
In reply to Re: nah, this is important. wouldnt do something like, posted by stjames on July 21, 2003, at 18:00:16
Here's a good abstract on MDMA neurotoxicity, the evidence is building that this is some really nasty stuff to serotonergic neurons. I would urge you to rethink your decision to use it.
Matt
Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2002 Apr;71(4):837-44. Related Articles, Links
Recreational Ecstasy/MDMA, the serotonin syndrome, and serotonergic neurotoxicity.Parrott AC.
Department of Psychology, University of East London, E15 4LZ, London, UK. a.c.parrott@uel.ac.uk
The ring-substituted amphetamine derivative 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) or "Ecstasy" is widely used a recreational drug. It stimulates the release and inhibits the reuptake of serotonin (5-HT) and other neurotransmitters such as dopamine to a lesser extent. The acute boost in monoamine activity can generate feelings of elation, emotional closeness, and sensory pleasure. In the hot and crowded conditions of raves/dances, mild versions of the serotonin syndrome often develop, when hyperthermia, mental confusion, and hyperkinesia predominate. Rest in a cooler environment generally reverses these problems, although they can develop into medical emergencies, which occasionally prove fatal. This acute serotonergic overactivity is exacerbated by the high ambient temperatures, overcrowding (aggregate toxicity), and use of other stimulant drugs. The on-drug experience is generally followed by negative moods, with 80--90% of weekend Ecstasy users reporting 'midweek blues', due probably to monoaminergic depletion. Single doses of MDMA can cause serotonergic nerve damage in laboratory animals, with repeated doses causing extensive loss of distal axon terminals. Huether's explanatory model for this 5-HT neurotoxicity will be briefly described. There is an increasing body of evidence for equivalent neuropsychobiological damage in humans. Abstinent regular Ecstasy users often show: reduced cerebrospinal 5-HIAA, reduced density of 5-HT transporters, blunted response to a fenfluramine challenge, memory problems, higher cognitive deficits, various psychiatric disorders, altered appetite, and loss of sexual interest. Functional deficits may remain long after drug use has ceased and are consistent with serotonergic axonal loss in higher brain regions.
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2003, at 17:06:45
In reply to MDMA neurotoxicity » stjames, posted by mattdds on July 23, 2003, at 16:37:15
No drug user will admit that a drug is dammaging their brain. They'll excuse it by saying "everything dammages your brain", or thats just anti-drug propaganda, or even I know "thousands of people who are fine"
If a drug dammages 5-ht neurons, it does not descriminated between people. Perhaps your friends were rather euphoric to begin with, ie they had plenty of 5ht neurons to at the start.
Another thing to remeber, you don't have to be depressed after suffering 5ht neurotoxisity. It could manifest itself in other ways: ie increased irritability, less deep sleep, more anxiety, inability to experience the same level of joy - all sorts of things.For goodness sake - whats done is done, but stop the drug before you cause more dammage.
Its just like saying - "Yeah I smoke, I don't have lung cancer" but tobbaco smoke does not descriminate, it will dammage the lung lining so you can't breath properly, it will clog your arteries etc etc.
Linkadge
Posted by Jack Smith on July 23, 2003, at 17:40:47
In reply to No drug user will admit......, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2003, at 17:06:45
> If a drug dammages 5-ht neurons, it does not descriminated between people. Perhaps your friends were rather euphoric to begin with, ie they had plenty of 5ht neurons to at the start.
Anyone on this site should know that drugs DO discriminate. Why is it that some people have the same symptoms as I and are able to achieve remission with, say, zoloft, yet I only get worse from zoloft. Why would MDMA be any different?
> For goodness sake - whats done is done, but stop the drug before you cause more dammage.
I do not think we should start preaching on this website. I think mattdds's comments were appropriate in that he cited a study said that he thought people should not use MDMA and left it at that. Preaching however is beyond the pale.
>
> Its just like saying - "Yeah I smoke, I don't have lung cancer" but tobbaco smoke does not descriminate,
>On this one, you are just plain wrong. Some people smoke, live to 90 and never get lung cancer. Some people smoke for ten years, get lung cancer and die. In fact, the majority of smokers do NOT get lung cancer. Does this mean I recommend smoking? No. It causes a lot of problems and you are still at a substantial risk of getting lung cancer, heart disease, etc.
Look, we should inform others. Not preach.
My two cents,
JACK
Posted by stjames on July 23, 2003, at 18:41:16
In reply to No drug user will admit......, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2003, at 17:06:45
> If a drug dammages 5-ht neurons, it does not descriminated between people. Perhaps your friends were rather euphoric to begin with, ie they had plenty of 5ht neurons to at the start.
We just have studies on Rats, and rats at huge doses at that. AS I said b4, of course people will
suffer damage if they take X and go hyperthermic.I have a small group of friends from college who did lots of X in the 80's. All are fine, no depression, ect, and have gone onto great lives.
This does not mean everyone will have the same outcome. But X usage was huge in the 80's, where are all the causalities ???
Posted by stjames on July 25, 2003, at 2:35:39
In reply to MDMA neurotoxicity » stjames, posted by mattdds on July 23, 2003, at 16:37:15
> Here's a good abstract on MDMA neurotoxicity, the evidence is building that this is some really nasty stuff to serotonergic neurons. I would urge you to rethink your decision to use it.
>I've read this one. the dose to the rats is HUGE.
Rat and human neurology are not the same thing.A great way to show toxic effects is with HUGE doses, with any substance.
Dear Dr. Shulgin:
Lately I've been hearing a lot of talk about how every time you take ecstasy it does permanent damage to the brain. I've also heard that ecstasy puts holes in the brain. Are these statements true?
-- Road Dog
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/brainholes.htmDear Road Dog:
No, they are not. The "permanent brain damage" is based totally on studies done with experimental animals, with the findings extrapolated to encompass the human subject. In a simple statement, there have been no studies in man that have indicated brain damage.
The "holes in the brain" is an even more outrageous deception. These popular holes are areas in brain scans that appear less active in attracting radiolabelled agents that are agonists for certain receptor site areas. The pictures that are shown for comparison are not of the same person with or without MDMA in them, but of different people, one of whom has used a lot of ecstasy and the other one without any such history. The quintessence of this line of mythology is an article that appeared recently in the Willamette Week. It not only assured the reader that there were holes generated by serotonin loss, but that they became flooded with dopamine (the default neurotransmitter) and, being attacked by hydrogen peroxide, produced rust.
Sorry, drug warriors. No damage, no holes, no rust.
-- Dr. Shulgin
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2003, at 7:03:12
In reply to Re: MDMA neurotoxicity, posted by stjames on July 25, 2003, at 2:35:39
When I said that tobacco smoke does not descriminate, I meant that it causes
dammage to *everybody* who smokes it.Yes, you are right that the dammage varies
from person to person (some get cancer/some don't), based on *many* other factors, but the simple fact remains that tobbacco smoke dammages the lungs in specific ways.And no drugs do *not* descriminate (please let me
clarify). It is obvious that the psychological
effects of all these drugs vary from person
to person, but the drugs still has specific
non-descriminatory actions and targets (Just like baking soda and vinegar will aways react) The end result, of course depends on the levels of many other brain chemicals. It is a mathematical equasion, with numerous factors yes (but a mathemaical equasion nonetheless)
Like I said previously, just because your friends appear fine, does not mean they did not suffer dammage. The dammage can be anywhere from 'next to zilch' to highly observable serotogenic dammage. Because the damage is very specific to the serotogenic system, I do doubt that the dammage is due to hyperthermia.I am not preaching in any way at all. I am just presenting the tip of the ever growing body of evidence cautioning against Ex use.
If the people on this board truely believed that MDMA caused "no dammage" and was without consequence, then there would be a lot more people
taking MDMA in the morning than prozac.
Even if it hasn't been proven 'conclusivly' in human studies, is it really advantagious to take the risk? Remember, the rat brains that are showing that MDMA does dammage 5HT neurons are the same breed of rats that are testing and identifying the newest antidepressants.I do mean well.
http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/damage.html
http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/toxmetab.html
http://www.arclab.org/medlineupdates/abstract_12105113.html
http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/electrophysiological.html
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml
Linkadge
Posted by stjames on July 25, 2003, at 10:35:42
In reply to Actually drugs don't descriminate, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2003, at 7:03:12
> Yes, you are right that the dammage varies
> from person to person (some get cancer/some don't), based on *many* other factors, but the simple fact remains that tobbacco smoke dammages the lungs in specific ways.
The "permanent brain damage" is based totally on studies done with experimental animals, with the findings extrapolated to encompass the human subject. In a simple statement, there have been no studies in man that have indicated brain damage.-Dr. Shungrin
Posted by Dinah on July 25, 2003, at 10:49:04
In reply to Re: Actually drugs don't descriminate, posted by stjames on July 25, 2003, at 10:35:42
> > Yes, you are right that the dammage varies
> > from person to person (some get cancer/some don't), based on *many* other factors, but the simple fact remains that tobbacco smoke dammages the lungs in specific ways.
>
>
> The "permanent brain damage" is based totally on studies done with experimental animals, with the findings extrapolated to encompass the human subject. In a simple statement, there have been no studies in man that have indicated brain damage.
>
> -Dr. Shungrin
Just in curiousity, have there been any studies in man that show there is no brain damage?As they discover more and more how so many things from CBT (which changes neuroimaging results in OCD) to early childhood experiences (prolonged trauma causing a smaller hippocampus, is it?) mold and shape brain functioning. With the question of whether schizophrenia or the drugs used to treat them cause the differences in brain structure observed in schizophrenics. With so many unknowns about what does what to the brain. (And my own absolute conviction that either postpartum depression or the drugs used to treat it caused permanent changes in my own wiring - ok, i admit to bias). It seems hard to believe that everything doesn't have some effect on the brain, and no way of knowing how long those effects last.
In fact, in a recent consultation someone told me that my year on thorazine as a preteen probably had lasting effects, and that it was a shame that it was prescribed for severe depression/OCD.
If experiences can change brain structure and function, surely drugs targeted at the brain can.
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2003, at 16:25:25
In reply to Re: Actually drugs don't descriminate » stjames, posted by Dinah on July 25, 2003, at 10:49:04
Sorry, my previous messages were really not very constructive. I will try to be more supportive.
Linkadge
Posted by JonW on July 25, 2003, at 20:56:45
In reply to drugs DO discriminate » linkadge, posted by Jack Smith on July 23, 2003, at 17:40:47
> Anyone on this site should know that drugs DO discriminate. Why is it that some people have the same symptoms as I and are able to achieve remission with, say, zoloft, yet I only get worse from zoloft. Why would MDMA be any different?
I don't want to get involved in this one except to say that just because a drug has a different effect on one's depression, it doesn't necessarily follow that its effect on the brain is different. I think it's more likely a reflection of unique "imbalances" than of different chemical effects. Whether or not that effect is *always* bad is another question altogether. It obviously isn't always good in the case of zoloft, so maybe it isn't always bad in the case of E. However, I am not aware of any evidence suggesting zoloft is neurotoxic in any way. Without solid evidence a lot of these questions become more ethical than anything else.
Jon
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