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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Snoozy on April 25, 2003, at 12:19:13
In reply to Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion, posted by Tepiaca on April 25, 2003, at 1:05:44
I'm with the other post-ers that it's a good idea to stay away from any "reefer madness" scare tactics. Yes, there are downsides to using pot. But if you try to scare teens with a lot of stuff they know isn't true, they'll just blow you off.
When I was a teen, I had a book called "From Chocolate to Morphine" by Andrew Weil. It goes through every drug under the sun, and it tells you what the negatives of each are. But it's done in a way that doesn't say all drugs are evil or you're funding terrorists or any other kind of rhetoric. I did believe the negatives about drugs that I read in this book, and it did have an effect on my decisions.
You might want to see if this book is still around. I just hope it isn't in an antiquarian bookshop. lol
Good luck with your cousin.
> I knew this was going to create polemic . The cannabis has always been a polemic teme to argue.
> I appreciate all your responses , thanks for take your time to share your opinions.
> This is my conclucion
> Paxvox gave me the answer that I was waiting for , thank you very much.Its was very accurately
> Cable I respect your point of view but ,when you said that is not my bussines , I start to think and of course is my bussines , this is my family and I want the best for all of them .My cousin doesnt have mom and his dad is not at home most of the year . Maybe is not my bussines its his life but I love my family , and I care about them
> He is a teenager he does not know what he wants,
> at least no 100% . I think: today cannabis , maybe tomorrow can be cocaine or heroine or exctasis or I dont know what else he can take , all this leads you to hell at the end , with a great damage on his brain.
> So I think Im gonna talk seriously with him before this gets worst . Maybe he is not going to listen me , but at least Im gonna make a try , and is this not result , I gonna have to talk to my uncle .This just about helping , not controling his life .
> YOU CAN HAVE SERIOUSLY BRAIN DAMAGE ON POT COCAINE , HEROIN , ETC ETC ETC
> I dont want this , nobody wants that for a person that you care
> Thank you very much
> If you still waht to share something ,please do it
> I want to be open mind at this case because I care a lot.
> Tepiaca
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on April 25, 2003, at 13:26:41
In reply to Re: Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion » Tepiaca, posted by Snoozy on April 25, 2003, at 12:19:13
The best mid-level book on psychopharmacology I've found... "A Primer of Drug Action: A Concise, Non-Technical Guide to the Actions, Uses, and Side Effecte of Psychoactive Drugs"
Informative and thorough.
Posted by Tepiaca on April 25, 2003, at 15:12:19
In reply to Re: Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion, posted by stjames on April 25, 2003, at 11:23:53
mmm , I dont think so , Im dont know about pot causing brain damage , but I know people who is now on a wheelchair due to the cocaine .
Posted by paxvox on April 25, 2003, at 15:39:07
In reply to Re: Help””” I want my cousin to stop smoking canabbis, posted by Caleb462 on April 24, 2003, at 21:57:34
I agree pot isn't as harmful to smoke as tobacco, and if you REALLY read my post carefully, you would have seen that in my preamble." Not as dangerous", well, I guess it's not as dangerous to jump off a 20 foot roof than a 40 foot one,(i.e. its's STILL dangerous, regardless of the severity, so why do any unnecessary dangerous thing to your body just for thrills?) so I assume this is the logic you are applying here.I think I have enough first-hand experience to say what pot does and does not do. Sure, you can play the "mays" and "mights" all you want. If I shoot a bullet at my head I MIGHT miss, however, it's generally a good thing NOT to do in the first place. I would discourage ANY young person from using ANY recreational drug, including alcohol. I think you are naive to say that pot (smoked or eaten) doesn't affect mental development, you have not looked at the research too closely. I stand by my statements.
PAX
Posted by Questionmark on April 25, 2003, at 21:19:26
In reply to Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion, posted by Tepiaca on April 25, 2003, at 1:05:44
i'm not saying cannabis is harmless-- it's not. But when you lump cannabis in the same group with things like cocaine and heroin, you do one of two things: you make young users either think that you don't know anything about pot and that you dont know what youre talking about (and so they'll be even less inclined to listen to you when it comes to drugs)... or, after seeing how fairly benign marijuana is, they think that many other drugs must be fairly benign as well-- since they've been told so many times that marijuana is essentially a drug just like cocaine and what not-- and THAT in my opinion is the biggest factor in pot being a so-called "gateway drug."
Also, be careful how you deal with this. If you rat on your brother (or cousin?) and if he gets in a great deal of trouble, this may just anger him and push him away from the family even further.. and he may resort to even more drug use.
Finally, i don't even like pot that much anymore, i really don't, but i'm convinced that SSRIs, benzodiazepines, etc. etc. and even alcohol can be considerably worse for a person than cannabis, though it depends. Good luck in your decision and with the situation.
Posted by Caleb462 on April 26, 2003, at 0:12:23
In reply to Re: Help””” I want my cousin to stop smoking canabbis, posted by paxvox on April 25, 2003, at 15:39:07
> I agree pot isn't as harmful to smoke as tobacco, and if you REALLY read my post carefully, you would have seen that in my preamble." Not as dangerous", well, I guess it's not as dangerous to jump off a 20 foot roof than a 40 foot one,(i.e. its's STILL dangerous, regardless of the severity, so why do any unnecessary dangerous thing to your body just for thrills?) so I assume this is the logic you are applying here.
Uh... I never said pot smoke wasn't dangerous. I said it was not as dangerous as tobacco smoke, that was all intented to show.
>I think I have enough first-hand experience to say what pot does and does not do. Sure, you can play the "mays" and "mights" all you want. If I shoot a bullet at my head I MIGHT miss, however, it's generally a good thing NOT to do in the first place. I would discourage ANY young person from using ANY recreational drug, including alcohol. I think you are naive to say that pot (smoked or eaten) doesn't affect mental development, you have not looked at the research too closely. I stand by my statements.
>I never said pot doesn't effect mental development. I said it's possible, saying that it WILL is ridiculous because it's not proven.
I am all for conveying the risks of cannabis, but there are always two sides - and the other side should be shown as well.
Posted by Caleb462 on April 26, 2003, at 0:19:55
In reply to Re: Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion » stjames, posted by Tepiaca on April 25, 2003, at 15:12:19
> mmm , I dont think so , Im dont know about pot causing brain damage , but I know people who is now on a wheelchair due to the cocaine .
Chronic use of cocaine can cause brain damage - though it's likely minor in most cases, certainly not all.
Heroin, on the other hand, is completely harmless. Even chronic use will not damage the body or mind in any way.
And no good research suggests that pot causes brain damage.
Posted by Okpolosi on April 26, 2003, at 10:33:33
In reply to true, but..... » Caleb462, posted by ace on April 25, 2003, at 1:01:31
> It can cause Paranoia and other psychotic sx in normal individuals. You are correct, psychosis has to be latent for it to cause that but many temporary effects of pot are deleterious in addition to inducing temporary psychotic sx - ie, apathy, depression.
>
> I am adverse to all illicit substances. They are illicit for good reasons, IMO.
>
>
> Ace.Then why are tabacco and alcohol NOT illicit??? These are 2 of the worst DRUGS!!!!
Posted by Okpolosi on April 26, 2003, at 10:39:18
In reply to Read this before you decide. » Tepiaca, posted by Questionmark on April 25, 2003, at 21:19:26
> i'm not saying cannabis is harmless-- it's not. But when you lump cannabis in the same group with things like cocaine and heroin, you do one of two things: you make young users either think that you don't know anything about pot and that you dont know what youre talking about (and so they'll be even less inclined to listen to you when it comes to drugs)... or, after seeing how fairly benign marijuana is, they think that many other drugs must be fairly benign as well-- since they've been told so many times that marijuana is essentially a drug just like cocaine and what not-- and THAT in my opinion is the biggest factor in pot being a so-called "gateway drug."
> Also, be careful how you deal with this. If you rat on your brother (or cousin?) and if he gets in a great deal of trouble, this may just anger him and push him away from the family even further.. and he may resort to even more drug use.
> Finally, i don't even like pot that much anymore, i really don't, but i'm convinced that SSRIs, benzodiazepines, etc. etc. and even alcohol can be considerably worse for a person than cannabis, though it depends. Good luck in your decision and with the situation.I couldn't have said it better!!!! YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY ON THIS ONE.
Posted by Okpolosi on April 26, 2003, at 11:08:31
In reply to Re: true, but....., posted by Okpolosi on April 26, 2003, at 10:33:33
> > It can cause Paranoia and other psychotic sx in normal individuals. You are correct, psychosis has to be latent for it to cause that but many temporary effects of pot are deleterious in addition to inducing temporary psychotic sx - ie, apathy, depression.
> >
> > I am adverse to all illicit substances. They are illicit for good reasons, IMO.
> >
> >
> > Ace.
>
> Then why are tabacco and alcohol NOT illicit??? These are 2 of the worst DRUGS!!!!This is not a personal jab at you, Ace, Just a rehtorical question I have for the powers that be!!! I can NOT understand the HYPOCRACY involved here....just because Tabacco and Alcohol have big money lobbies they are allowed to pollute our youth with their poisons, which should all be lumped together with cocaine, morphine, heroin, speed, meth, ect.
The U.S. is now the country with the LARGEST PERCENTAGE of it's population behind bars!!!! If we took all the people out who are in jail for drugs and put them into drug treatment programs where they belong, there would be enough room in jail for all the CRIMINALS.
Then if you go one step further and legalize Pot and TAX it and REGULATE it like you do for tabacco and alcohol, you could PAY for all those drug treatment programs to get these people OFF of these terrible drugs.
One last point...HEMP can be used to make PAPER (and rope and clothes and a number of other useful products)...so instead of whacking down all our trees, we could cultivate hemp (which would give you a BIG headache if you tried to smoke it, and you WOULD NOT get high either) to produce the mountains of paper we use and abuse every day and SAVE THE TREES!!!!
Posted by stjames on April 26, 2003, at 16:49:12
In reply to Re: Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion » stjames, posted by Tepiaca on April 25, 2003, at 15:12:19
> mmm , I dont think so , Im dont know about pot causing brain damage , but I know people who is now on a wheelchair due to the cocaine .
How did cocaine (by being toxic) do this ?
Posted by Willow on April 27, 2003, at 11:37:25
In reply to Ace and Tepiaca, posted by Caleb462 on April 25, 2003, at 2:13:32
> Ace,
> It can cause paranoia, yes. Paranoia does not = psychosis. Nor does depression and apathy = psychosis. Many drugs, both licit and illicit, can cause problems for people - particularly the illicit ones. Marijuana, however, is relatively tame in comparison to most recreational drugs. It is definitely a safer drug than alcohol. I'm not saying it is without risks, but I think a 17 year old has the capacity to make his own decisions about this subject. He may or may not regret these decisions in the future, and that is what life is all about.
Over the years this topic has come up numerous times on the board. The argument that it is safer than alcohol as a "recreational" drug is almost always pointed out. This is in my opinion like arguing which is a better pet, a cat or a dog.I've gone to my psychologist's complaining of symptoms, which I refer to as my psychotic episodes. He has stated that they are technically mixed episodes of severe anxiety and depression. We've come to the agreement that I will refer to them as my psycotic espisodes; though, technically speaking they are not. For myself, I have explained that they seem very similiar to my father's "psychotic" episodes that he has had as a result of his illness, schizophrenia.
I've always been aware of his heightened anxiety during these "breaks" but not really knowing how crappy it feels. I can't imagine anything worse than my severe and prolonged anxiety attacks which make me paranoid of the strangest things, but then I'm sure my father would say the same for his illness.
He claims his schizophrenia was brought on by bad drugs, which many people from his age with the illness claim. The bad drug which he refers to is "pot." And he was an adult when the illness surfaced, in his mid 30's.
My point is that no matter your age having concerned social supports is never bad. Pot or booze, either one can cause damage. (For those on this board advocating the use of either, I would argue that they may be prime examples of reasons against.) Paranoia versus psychosis, hangover versus apathy? If I had to choose, I would prefer a life with healthy social relationships which I'm able to function at a level that supports my own self worth, doesn't demean it.
Weeping Willow
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on April 27, 2003, at 11:44:20
In reply to Help””” I want my cousin to stop smoking canabbis, posted by Tepiaca on April 24, 2003, at 19:31:34
Professor Robin Murray of the Institute of Psychiatry in London has no doubt about the connection between cannabis and schizophrenia.Schizophrenia is twice as common now in South London as it was in the 1960`s and this is the likeliest cause.He points out that it makes treating schizophrenia more difficult too.Despite this information I notice that 60% of college students and 30% of young doctors in Britain smoke cannabis.
Posted by Snoozy on April 27, 2003, at 12:45:01
In reply to Help””” I want my cousin to stop smoking canabbis, posted by Tepiaca on April 24, 2003, at 19:31:34
I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier, but now I wonder if your cousin is "self-medicating" or is he just partying or maybe even a bit of both?
> Please help , my cousin is smoking cannabis , he is 17 years old . Nobody in the family knows that, except for me I know that this things for some people is very normal ,but Our family is not used to do that things. I dont want that his parents know that.
> Please give me some advices”””
> Something that I could say him ,I want to scare him saying something dangerous about drugs .
> I dont know , show him pictures of people , with their life destroyed , without even can talk
> Today cannabis , tomorrow can be cocaine , extasis
> ect ect.
> At his age everything seems to be party ,and like many teenagers he doesnt pay too much attention to the advices of the family .
> Explain me how the drugs can destroy his brain
> If you have any other suggestions everything is welcome.
> Thank you very much
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2003, at 19:54:56
In reply to Re: true, but....., posted by Okpolosi on April 26, 2003, at 11:08:31
> This is not a personal jab at you, Ace, Just a rehtorical question I have for the powers that be!!!
I'd prefer for those sorts of questions to be discussed at Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Bob
PS: And for any discussion of posting policies to take place at Psycho-Babble Administration...
Posted by Questionmark on April 28, 2003, at 1:26:30
In reply to Re: Help””” I want my cousin to stop smoking canabbis, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on April 27, 2003, at 11:44:20
> Professor Robin Murray of the Institute of Psychiatry in London has no doubt about the connection between cannabis and schizophrenia.Schizophrenia is twice as common now in South London as it was in the 1960`s and this is the likeliest cause.
"Correlation does not mean causation"
(a great point that my psychology professors sometimes tell us). i question whether cannabis was the "likeliest cause." i could see how and do believe that cannabis could aggravate and even induce psychosis in some people, but i imagine it is usually (though not always) from an extremely bad experience from an extremely high dose of cannabis-- and that it is extremely rare overall
(nowhere near proportional to LSD use and psychosis, i'd say).
Posted by Questionmark on April 28, 2003, at 2:34:53
In reply to Re: Thanks all you guys . This is my conclucion, posted by Caleb462 on April 26, 2003, at 0:19:55
> Chronic use of cocaine can cause brain damage - though it's likely minor in most cases, certainly not all.
Someone asked how it does this. i believe it's mostly by destroying or at least damaging dopaminergic neurons. i don't know if it's the massive overstimulation of these neurons (excitotoxicity) or the subsequent depletion of dopamine within these neurons that causes the damage. i've been wondering this a lot about drug-induced brain damage-- which is it? Anyone know?
> Heroin, on the other hand, is completely harmless. Even chronic use will not damage the body or mind in any way.
i thought you were being jokingly sarcastic here at first, but then i realized you weren't. Do you really believe this? i've never read about any physiological evidence that says heroin can damage the brain or body, but i imagine it has to to some extent doesn't it? .. Probably opioid/endorphin receptors (whatever they're called) and the associated neurons, and maybe some dopaminergic neurons.. and, i duno. The effects are so powerful that it must do some kind of damage, right?
> And no good research suggests that pot causes brain damage.
i adamantly said the same thing for a number of years growing up, and, i was right, but, much to my disappointment and dismay-- and i'm sorry i don't know the reference or anything, but i'm sure i read it-- just this past year i came across an abstract (published in the past couple years i believe) that found that THC (or maybe just cannabis in general, i forget exactly) can destroy/damage brain cells in the hippocampus. :?( Now the damage might still be relatively minor or even insignificant-- i don't know-- but, according to this, it exists. Sorry i can't remember the source-- maybe just do a search on THC (or marijuana or something) and brain damage or hippocampus damage or something like that. You should be able to find it. It's a recent study, and unlike many other anti-pot type studies this one seems to be pretty valid.
Posted by Okpolosi on April 28, 2003, at 10:22:15
In reply to Redirect: rehtorical question, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2003, at 19:54:56
> > This is not a personal jab at you, Ace, Just a rehtorical question I have for the powers that be!!!
>
> I'd prefer for those sorts of questions to be discussed at Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
>
> Bob
>
> PS: And for any discussion of posting policies to take place at Psycho-Babble Administration...Sorry Dr. Bob, will mind my manners in the future...just got carried away!!!
Posted by stjames on April 28, 2003, at 17:42:36
In reply to Damage, posted by Questionmark on April 28, 2003, at 2:34:53
> > Chronic use of cocaine can cause brain damage - though it's likely minor in most cases, certainly not all.
>
> Someone asked how it does this.I did, but it was in context to
"cocaine destroys your brain"; I disagree
with this statement and I agree
that by in large cocaine causes little neurological damage. However cocaine does cause
damage in other parts of your life
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2003, at 22:44:12
In reply to Damage, posted by Questionmark on April 28, 2003, at 2:34:53
To add a bit to the brain damage discussion, it's my impression also that even long-term heroin or morphine use does not cause any loss of brain cells.
Pot, though, is a bit different. Several years ago, I looked up animal studies on THC for a presentation I was giving at a school. The studies involved primates, and they were given a LOT of THC- far more than even a heavy pot-smoker would use. The brain slice studies did show a tremendous loss of neurons in the hippocampus at those high dosage levels. I also found a very few case reports of loss of initiative, ambition and short-term memory in heavy pot-smokers, although most of the occasional pot-smokers didn't show any of these changes. So, I guess the best approach is, if you are going to do it, be moderate.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Willow on April 29, 2003, at 9:18:33
In reply to Re: Damage » Questionmark, posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2003, at 22:44:12
For other's like myself, who thought this was some college hangout. For a true definition, short but to the point, even has a picture.
http://www.morphonix.com/software/education/science/brain/game/specimens/hippocampus.html
Posted by linkadge on April 29, 2003, at 14:03:49
In reply to Hippocampus (trivia), posted by Willow on April 29, 2003, at 9:18:33
Heroin causes no brain dammage, as it simply
binds to and activated the various endorphin
receptor subtypes.It does however cause long term alterations in
the brain. Research has showen clear and significant alterations in beta-endorpen,
and several other receptor sites in the brain.These changes are depenant on the duration of use of Heroin, and other opiates, and the time since.
Infact, some studies show an increased susceptability to pain, in chronically
exposed animals, even years after the initial
dosing.This could be why many users find it very
hard to quit. Many report thinking about the
drug, and craving its effects many years
after its use.
I do not recomend the use of Heroin.
If you want some endorphins then for
goodness sakes you lazy bottoms, go
out and excercise :)Linkadge
Posted by Caleb462 on April 29, 2003, at 17:11:55
In reply to H - no dammage - Long term alteration, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2003, at 14:03:49
> Heroin causes no brain dammage, as it simply
> binds to and activated the various endorphin
> receptor subtypes.
>
> It does however cause long term alterations in
> the brain. Research has showen clear and significant alterations in beta-endorpen,
> and several other receptor sites in the brain.
>
> These changes are depenant on the duration of use of Heroin, and other opiates, and the time since.
>
> Infact, some studies show an increased susceptability to pain, in chronically
> exposed animals, even years after the initial
> dosing.
>
> This could be why many users find it very
> hard to quit. Many report thinking about the
> drug, and craving its effects many years
> after its use.
>
>
> I do not recomend the use of Heroin.
> If you want some endorphins then for
> goodness sakes you lazy bottoms, go
> out and excercise :)
>
> Linkadge
>Linkadge is right, it will cause alterations in receptors - but that happens with any psychoactive drug used long-term - anti-depressants, for instance. No true damage occurs to the brain or body, however. Not that I'm advocating the use of heroin or other opiods, but I just like getting the truth out. Heroin is not a physically dangerous drug.
Posted by Caleb462 on April 29, 2003, at 17:14:58
In reply to H - no dammage - Long term alteration, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2003, at 14:03:49
Here's an interesting tidbit:
"Similar research conducted by scientists at the National Institutes for Mental Health found that naturally occurring cannabinoids THC and cannabidiol (CBD) are also neuroprotective. A 1999 report by the National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine (IOM) called cannabis' neuroprotective qualities the "most prominent" of its potential therapeutic applications."
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5560
Of course, I suppose it's possible for a substance to be both neuroprotective and neurotoxic at the same time.
However, the evidence of cannabis being neuroprotective seems to be stronger than the evidence of cannabis causing brain damage.
Posted by Caleb462 on April 29, 2003, at 17:25:32
In reply to Cannabis - the opposite of brain damage, posted by Caleb462 on April 29, 2003, at 17:14:58
" However, it is clear that cannabinoids have a variety of cerebrovascular effects, increasing the blood supply to the brain[xlvi], and can protect against potentially fatal brain cell death following a stroke by reducing tumour necrosis factor, which causes self-destruction in exposed cells. The use of cannabinoids for treatment of brain damage arising from strokes is reaching an advanced stage of the licensing process"
http://www.idmu.co.uk/canncardio.htm
"Although the drug distorts perception and affects short-term memory, it may also help prevent degenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Huntingdon's and motor neurone diseases. Scientists at the Institute of Neurology in Queens Square, London, say the "huge potential" of cannabis compounds is emerging, as understanding of its biological and pharmacological properties improves."
"The natural system of cannabinoid receptors plays a role in maintaining the balance of chemicals in the brain which regulate the rate at which neurons fire. By altering this system, scientists believe it may be possible to slow or prevent the process of brain decay. David Baker, lead author of the Lancet review and senior lecturer at the Institute of Neurology, said: "Alzheimer's disease is the result of very slow degeneration caused by the death of nerve cells"
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