![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 0:11:11
What is manic depression (bipolar disorder)?
According to the current medical model manic depression is a "mental illness" that is incurable. This current medical model also states that manic depression requires medication on a daily basis in which to control it's symptoms for the rest of one's life.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The current medical model concerning manic depression and perhaps a whole host of other "psychiatric illnesses" is almost totally incorrect.
Manic depression is a condition of biochemical imbalance in the biochemistry that all human beings are made out of, biochemicals with names such as neurotransmitters, hormones, and enzymes.
The levels of neurotransmitters, hormones, and enzymes in the human body and brain are heavily dependent on the levels of essential nutrient precursor substances that these biochemicals are made out of, essential nutrient substances with names such as vitamins, minerals, and amino acids.
In simple terms, correction of the condition of biochemical imbalance called manic depression involves correcting the levels of essential nutrient precursor substances in the human body, such that adequate and proper levels of neurotransmitters, hormones, and enzymes are maintained at all times. It also involves identifying and correcting any and all of the malabsorptive issues such that one's biochemistry became deficient such that a pyschiatric diagnosis was the end result.
Natural Treatment of Manic Depression Explained
Informative Links:
Some Helpful Books
An Alternative Mental Health Site
Byepolar - Natural, Nutritional, Orthomolecular, and Alternative Treatment Solutions for Bipolar Disorder
Orthomolecular Medicine
An Often Helpful Supplement
Contact Information:
Name: Allen Darman
Email: allen_dar@yahoo.com
Please note:This site is due for a very substantial upgrade and many additions late in the first quarter of 2002.
I am also seeking to train a collaborative partner in which to assist me in treating bipolar disorder in other persons on a "hands on basis" via natural means. Location in Northestern U.S. near Boston or NYC is highly desireable.
Treatment Issues Addressed
Becoming well from the biochemical deficiencies inherent in manic depression involves identifying and correcting all of the following possible essential nutrient malabsorptive issues properly:1. Any hidden food allergy or allergies. Hidden food allergies are extremely common amongst the bipolar population as a whole. These allergies are often devastating to both GI tract and brain function. Despite this, these hidden food allergies often go unrecognized for a person's entire life. It does not help that the current medical model totally ignores the crucial issue of probable hidden food allergy in bipolar persons, as well as it ignores this issue in it's entirety in regard to human health altogether. Although a number of food allergy tests exist today, no food allergy testing at present is nearly accurate enough to determine one's hidden food allergies well. A "cave man" elimination diet performed at home is the gold standard for detemining food allergy, and it is the only accurate method of doing so.
2. A yeast condition known as candida. Candida is rampant amongst the psychiatric population as a whole, to include persons that are bipolar. Every bipolar person should thoroughly learn how to treat candida overgrowth in themself via both dietary change and other yeast killing and/or controlling methodologies.
3. A chronic and/or recurrent lack of digestive enzymes. Digestive enzymes are nearly always lacking in persons that are bipolar, as their production draws on the same pool of available amino acids and minerals that neurotransmitters do. It is nearly a given that if a person lacks in an adequate supply of neurotransmitters, that they lack digestive enzymes as well. This crucial biochemical issue needs to be addressed in any person with any psychiatric diagnosis whatsoever. Worthy of note is that some digestive enzyme preparations that are sold are simply not potent enough to be adequately therapeutic in which to treat bipolar.
4. A lack of the ability to produce enough stomach acid. Many persons think that they make too much stomach acid when they get heartburn. Actually the reverse is more often true. Adequate stomach acid production is necessary for the delivery of an adequate supply of minerals and amino acids into the body. A stomach acid supplementation trial is often of great value in treating bipolar disorder. This trial is performed cautiously, by dosing up slowly. It is obvious to the person undergoing the trial if they need stomach acid or not.
5. Improper bowel flora. Improper levels of "good bacteria" in the gut vs. "bad bacteria" are the norm in the wetern world. Probiotic "good bacteria" are a "must" supplement for any person with any psychiatric diagnosis whatsoever. Often effective measures are also needed to thoroughly remove a host of various "bad bacteria" from the gut.
6. A lack of various nutrients, of which the amino acid glutamine is worthy to note. Efficient digestion and assimilation of foods is an intensive process that requires the entire range of essential nutrients, of which some are more important than others.
7. The possibility of parasites. Every person with any psychiatric diagnosis whatsoever ought to undergo a general anti-parasite regime. Parasites are far more common than is often thought, and these "nutrient robbers" and "toxic releasers" often go unrecognized for decades.
8. A flawed "appetite mechanism" and/or "thirst mechanism". Both of these issues are either correctable and/or can readily be circumvented to achieve desired results.Becoming well from manic depression and off of all psychotropic medications usually takes a period of between six to twelve weeks. Substantial nutritional supplementation, radical dietary changes, and a number of GI tract helpful measures are often necessary to achieve complete wellness from manic depression via solely natural means.
Posted by Jaynee on April 21, 2003, at 15:24:52
In reply to Interesting Read!!!, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 0:11:11
I agree it is a gut issue more than a brain issue. They forgot to add Herediatary Hemochromatosis(HH). It too is a metabolic disorder that orginates in the gut. It too causes bipolar and depression/anxiety, but goes misdiagnosed 90% of the time.
I am just starting to take Lactic Acid Bacteria to see if this helps. I will let you know how it works.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 16:21:58
In reply to Interesting Read!!!, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 0:11:11
> Name: Allen Darman
>
>
> Email: allen_dar@yahoo.comHey, McP, what is the URL of the website where you found this? I corresponded at great length with Allen some years ago. His ideas were very complimentary with my own, and I feel that he helped me a great deal.
Lar
Posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 20:49:42
In reply to Re: Interesting Read!!!, posted by Jaynee on April 21, 2003, at 15:24:52
"I am just starting to take Lactic Acid Bacteria to see if this helps. I will let you know how it works".
Please do let me know Jaynee!
Posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:09:11
In reply to Re: Interesting Read!!! » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2003, at 16:21:58
Lar, I don't have the website info for the article. What I often do, when I find something interesting, is copy the article and paste it and send it to myself (my e-mail address) and then keep it in my "Stored Messages" e-mail box. But I don't know how or where I found the article. I think I may have done a Google search, but not looking for that specific article (I actually found it a little while back and saved it). I was hoping that you would see it simply because I wondered what your thoughts would be on the recommendations. Remember when I asked you a week or so ago if you took Probiotics? I was just trying to see if you were aware of candida, parasites, leaky gut syndrome....those types of things....things that are never discussed here on this board.
Posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:47:07
In reply to Larry, Re: Interesting Read!!!, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:09:11
I just did a quick Google search and found the article at
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 22:02:51
In reply to Interesting Read!!!, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 0:11:11
> Becoming well from manic depression and off of all psychotropic medications usually takes a period of between six to twelve weeks. Substantial nutritional supplementation, radical dietary changes, and a number of GI tract helpful measures are often necessary to achieve complete wellness from manic depression via solely natural means.
I don't want to hurt any feelings nor step on any toes, but to suggest that every case of bipolar disorder can be completely resolved by adding a supplement here and a vitamin there is naive and irresponsible. Don't get me wrong; I use many supplements and vitamins and some of them help a lot. But let's be real. We are not going to totally "cure" a genetically based disease such as bipolar disorder by quaffing down a couple extra Flintstones Chewables with our breakfast. The disorder is more complicated than that. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that this website is selling supplements and vitamins.
There, I’m glad I got that off my chest.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2003, at 22:40:55
In reply to LARRY, Re: Larry, Re: Interesting Read!!!, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:47:07
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 22, 2003, at 10:45:26
In reply to Larry, Re: Interesting Read!!!, posted by McPac on April 21, 2003, at 21:09:11
> Lar, I don't have the website info for the article.
It was the first hit on a Google search....I didn't stop to think.
>I was hoping that you would see it simply because I wondered what your thoughts would be on the recommendations. Remember when I asked you a week or so ago if you took Probiotics? I was just trying to see if you were aware of candida, parasites, leaky gut syndrome....those types of things....things that are never discussed here on this board.
I'd be happy to give my thoughts on the gut and mental illness.
As I mentioned earlier, some years ago, I had an extensive correspondence going with Allen. He opened my eyes, so to speak. I had long believed that one of the contributing factors to my own disease was what I thought of as a "subclinical malabsorption syndrome". Subclinical in that it wasn't so very obvious that medical professionals had identified it as such, but nevertheless, significantly affecting my nutritional status. (Aside: The word disease comes to us from the Old French, diseasu, meaning not at peace. I can't think of a better description for my illness.)Allen wrote massive articles documenting his history and his interventions, but I lost them in a hard-drive crash a few years back (I think). It's possible they're in my archives, and I'll look for them later. Allen was massively afflicted with bipolar disorder, and had come to the brink of suicide, when he decided to try something radical. He really had little to lose at that point. He began taking massive doses of specific amino acids and vitamins, and his mood stabilized for the first time in his life. He was a rapid-cycler, so it didn't take long for him to feel the effects. The last I recall hearing from him, he had been stable for over one year, and was continuing to refine his personal protocol. He gave me some tips, and some places to look, and I began my own journey of introspective treatment. I started doing experiments with n=1 (i.e. with one subject), and took steps towards mood stability and optimized function.
I'll give my thoughts on the factors Allen has identified:
1. "Any hidden food allergy or allergies."
I agree with Allen that this issue is totally trivialized or ignored by doctors and patients alike. Many of the diets that people find success with are actually elimination diets. Atkins sets out to reduce or virtually eliminate carbs. But that coincidentally eliminates gluten. Gluten is the bad boy in celiac sprue, and if you look at the data, about 2/3 of all people with celiac disorder have depression. Go figure. When I look at diets, I think about these coincidental correlations. The thing about coincidental correlation is you can't determine which variable is the coincidental one; is carbohydrate intake the coicidental variable, or gluten? It might help to know, from a planning perspective, but the only thing that really matters is, "Does it work?" It takes weeks for the gut to heal from major exposure to some of the triggers, like gluten or lactose, so you really have to show some determination to sort this one out.
2. "A yeast condition known as candida."
Again, I'm drawn to the coincidental correlation issue. Measures used to control candida also control for sugar intake and yeast intake. The latter is likely to also control for gluten. Whether candidiasis is a clinical entity or not is debatable, but the effect of dietary control measures is not.
3. "A chronic and/or recurrent lack of digestive enzymes. Digestive enzymes are nearly always lacking in persons that are bipolar, as their production draws on the same pool of available amino acids and minerals that neurotransmitters do. It is nearly a given that if a person lacks in an adequate supply of neurotransmitters, that they lack digestive enzymes as well. This crucial biochemical issue needs to be addressed in any person with any psychiatric diagnosis whatsoever. Worthy of note is that some digestive enzyme preparations that are sold are simply not potent enough to be adequately therapeutic in which to treat bipolar."
This is a biggie, in my own thinking. Allen has well described the issue, so I left his words intact. I would add, however, that bromelain is quite effective and readily available. Further discussion on the subject in the next section.
4. "A lack of the ability to produce enough stomach acid."
Major issue. Reflux. Heartburn. GERD. All the Maalox/Nexxium in the world won't fix the problem....because they are not symptoms of excess acid, but instead, mis-timed acid. Medical management, as it currently stands, either blocks acid release (proton-pump inhibition or H2 blockade), or neutralizes it (Tums, Maalox, et al). The effect is iatrogenic (doctor-caused) hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) or achlorhydria (absent stomach acid). Doctors would have you believe that these situations are benign, but I must vehemently disagree. You look at the literature, and you'll find correlates between these two low acid conditions and a host of pathologies. Here's *my* story.
I was first diagnosed with chronic reflux over twenty years ago. I got all the standard treatments of the day (e.g. cimetidine), and still found myself carrying around Maalox wherever I went. I was put on omeprazole (Prilosec) when it was an experimental drug. I took part in the clinical trials for Nexxium (another one of those cash-grabs which releases on enantiomer of a racemate, as if it was a new drug). I knew I was in the treatment arm of the Nexxium trial, because the protocol called for the use of the drug p.r.n. (as needed), and I could immediately and predictably observe the effect. I still could not go anywhere without my Maalox, which I swigged sometimes many times a day. Over time, I began to notice that other things in my life were beginning to be more chronic (e.g. irritable bowel syndrome, mood swings), and I started to consider the negative impacts of iatrogenic hypochlorhydria, and the pathology we call GERD. I'll give you a synopsis.
I first considered digestive processes dependent upon stomach acid. Why is the stomach acid? Well, it's a pretty good barrier against infection, so blocking stomach acid isn't a good idea from that perspective. But, certain processes stood out: a) digestion of proteins; b) release of vitamin B-12. In the presence of protein, your stomach releases a compound known as pepsinogen. If the pH of the stomach is low enough (that's highly acid), pepsinogen is activated to pepsin, and cleavage of the peptides in protein proceeds effectively. Without acid, nothing happens. And, in the absence of acid, the B-12 in meat remains tightly bound, and is not available for absorption. Bacteria may release it later, but only after the meal has passed by that part of the gut that is dedicated to take it up.
I then turned my attention to the signal to release acid. It turns out that there's a signalling compound called gastrin that says "dump in acid". Looking at that more closely, I found that GERD sufferers release gastrin late. That results in a stratified acid profile in the stomach; that is to say, layers of differing acidity, with virtually none at the bottom, and high acid at the top, closest to the esophagus. The high acid there releases a lot of gas, and reflux is virtually a certainty. And, it turns out that B-12 is essential both for gastrin signalling and for acid production....in other words, B-12 deficiency contributes to B-12 deficiency. I'm going to fast-forward now (I could write a book, ya know?).
So what to do about it? I came to believe that four supplements would have a significant impact: B-12, betaine, bromelain, and magnesium. B-12 is a cofactor in both acid formation and signalling. Betaine (as the hydrochloride) is often suggested as an acid replacement, but I think that's another coincidental correlation. The amount of hydrochloride present is trivial, whereas the betaine is essential in a process that ultimately ends in proper regulation of acid release. Bromelain is a peptidase enzyme. It digests protein, even under the high acid condition of the stomach. Moreover, it has other anti-inflammatory propterties as well. And magnesium is a co-factor of a lot of enzyme processes.
So, what was the outcome of my supplement trials? Within two weeks I stopped using omeprazole. I have not had GERD since (over a year now). My irritable bowel has been substantially stable, and I continue to gain strength and stability in other parameters of my disease.
5. "Improper bowel flora."
The bacteria which proliferate in the gut are those which obtain nourishment there. I see "improper bowel flora (actually fauna)" as a marker of improper diet and disrupted digestion. Restoring the supply of nutrients and regulation of digestion will result in a shift in bacterial populations. That said, taking probiotics cannot hurt, and may well help the process along. I have yet to see convincing evidence of efficacy, except in the case of subjects who have been treated with massive doses of systemic antibiotics (like me, right now, for the pneumonia). I will certainly take probiotics after I'm off the antibiotics.
6. "A lack of various nutrients"
I think you know where I stand on that.
7. "The possibility of parasites."
Actually, I've seen some evidence that certain disorders can be treated by infecting patients with parasites. I think there are a lot of individual characteristics to consider on this issue.
8. A flawed "appetite mechanism" and/or "thirst mechanism".
I think this one is encompassed wholly by previous considerations.
Just my Canadian 2 cents (about 1.4 cents U.S.).
Lar
Posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 20:02:30
In reply to Re: The gut, and mental illness (long) » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on April 22, 2003, at 10:45:26
I'd be happy to give my thoughts on the gut and mental illness.
>>>>>>>>>I'm so glad you did! My philosophy in treating my psychiatric problems is to take the meds that I NEED and in addition to do everything that I can do on my own to help myself. One day, I would LOVE to be med-free, but, that remains to be seen.
I had long believed that one of the contributing factors to my own disease was what I thought of as a "subclinical malabsorption syndrome".
>>>>>>>>>>Is there a lab test that could tell someone if they were/were not properly absorbing their nutrients?
He began taking massive doses of specific amino acids and vitamins, and his mood stabilized for the first time in his life.
>>>>>>>>>Lar, here is a question that I have been wondering myself: Pfeiffer knows that neurotransmitters are made from amino acids (among other things) YET they don't have me on many amino acids at all, barely NONE (I think methionine is the only one). I would have thought a balanced amino acid supplement would have been useful. What do you think?
The last I recall hearing from him, he had been stable for over one year, and was continuing to refine his personal protocol. He gave me some tips>>>>>> I'd love to know them. You'd think we pay our doctors enough to provide these insights but most docs seem to do VERY little other than dispense drugs. The patient is left to try to be his own doctor and try to decipher all of the confusing and contradictory massive piles of literature that is out there. I'd rather have a ONE PAGE piece of paper, listing all of the things that are really important for ME to follow in order to improve my condition RATHER than endless Dr. appt's which accomplish absolutely nothing.
I'll give my thoughts on the factors Allen has identified:
1. "Any hidden food allergy or allergies."
>>>>>>>>>>> Do these allergies cause psychiatric problems due to Leaky Gut Syndrome, which leads to malabsorption problems? I have both food allergies (intolerance) and outdoor allergies. The food allergies cause my eyes to itch a lot. Could they also be causing far more serious problems? How can I tell if they are?
Gluten is the bad boy in celiac sprue, and if you look at the data, about 2/3 of all people with celiac disorder have depression.>>>>>>I've read about gluten/casein free diets for psychiatric problems. Yet NEVER had a doctor mention it to me.
2. "A yeast condition known as candida."Whether candidiasis is a clinical entity or not is debatable
>>>>>>>>>I know this is controversial...but I don't know why....aren't there tests to show whether one has candida?
3. "A chronic and/or recurrent lack of digestive enzymes. Digestive enzymes are nearly always lacking in persons that are bipolar, as their production draws on the same pool of available amino acids and minerals that neurotransmitters do.
It is nearly a given that if a person lacks in an adequate supply of neurotransmitters, that they lack digestive enzymes as well. This crucial biochemical issue needs to be addressed in any person with any psychiatric diagnosis whatsoever. Worthy of note is that some digestive enzyme preparations that are sold are simply not potent enough to be adequately therapeutic in which to treat bipolar.">>>>>>>>>Again, I am on nothing from Pfeiffer (as far as I know) to address digestive enzyme issues. Yet Pfeiffer is supposed to be very highly regarded in what they do (nutritional biochemical treatment). Why don't they know about this point (I'm sure they do)...so, why don't they treat it?
4. "A lack of the ability to produce enough stomach acid."
The effect is iatrogenic (doctor-caused) hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) or achlorhydria (absent stomach acid). Doctors would have you believe that these situations are benign, but I must vehemently disagree.
>>>>>>>>>Is this because Dr's WANT us to keep coming back over and over again, because they want to prescribe their high-priced drugs instead or what?
So what to do about it? I came to believe that four supplements would have a significant impact: B-12, betaine, bromelain, and magnesium. So, what was the outcome of my supplement trials? Within two weeks I stopped using omeprazole. I have not had GERD since (over a year now). My irritable bowel has been substantially stable
>>>>>>>>>Would these 4 ingredients be useful for most folks that had malabsorption issues?
(I'm taking all of these except for the bromelain).5. "Improper bowel flora."
The bacteria which proliferate in the gut are those which obtain nourishment there. I see "improper bowel flora (actually fauna)" as a marker of improper diet and disrupted digestion.
>>>>>>>>Why can some people eat nothing but pure trashy diets, JUNK foods, constant sweets, chocolate non-stop, mega caffeine, even drink non-stop booze, chain smoke, yet NOT have these psychiatric problems.....I'm rambling but WHY are WE SO affected by even slight dietary transgressions! (You don't have to answer, I'm just venting because sometimes it seems like any little fart can push US (psych. patients) over the edge!)
restoring the supply of nutrients and regulation of digestion will result in a shift in bacterial populations.
>>>>>>>>Larry, important point here....I recently read that, for MOST folks, diet wasn't much of a factor in causing this "bad" bacteria shift but rather STRESS was the big factor! Sure makes sense to me!!! STRESS is the SOB that leads to everything going haywire in the body and eventually mind! I'm NOT talking very scientific there, I know, but in plain English STRESS is the precursor of all the bad things that follow. (I sometimes think that if I could live on my own island that most of my problems would vanish).
That said, taking probiotics cannot hurt, and may well help the process along. I have yet to see convincing evidence of efficacy
>>>>>>>I have read many accounts (NOT clinical studies) of people/natural practitioners citing very positive results but of course the allopathic monopoly doesn't want anybody hearing that. The "natural" methods receive puny funding, comparatively speaking to the allopathic monopoly. I take many studies w/ a grain of salt.
, except in the case of subjects who have been treated with massive doses of systemic antibiotics (like me, right now, for the pneumonia). I will certainly take probiotics after I'm off the antibiotics.
>>>>>>>>> If you took both anti- and pro- biotics at the same time they would just negate each other correct (just wondering)?
6. "A lack of various nutrients"
I think you know where I stand on that.
>>>>> So...solving a malabsorption problem (caused by leaky gut for example) could result in somebody maybe not even needing many additional supplements?
7. "The possibility of parasites."
>>>>>>>> Again, as with candida, couldn't someone be tested to see if they have parasites?
Wouldn't this be easy to determine?>>>>>>>Another thought...with stress being such a factor in leading to leaky gut, which leads to malabsorption, which leads on and on and on to so many problems....that is why Skilled Relaxation is said to be SOOOO important by many natural healers, because it decreases stress, thereby healing the leaky gut problem, thereby resolving a host of problems....stress definitely SUCKS!
Just my Canadian 2 cents (about 1.4 cents U.S.).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's worth a WHOLE lot more than 1.4 cents to me Lar! I'd rather pay you for your awesome ideas/thoughts/insights than the lousy Dr's I've had that haven't done squat! Take care Larry! You RULE this board!
Posted by McPac on April 23, 2003, at 0:35:59
In reply to Larry, Re: The gut, and mental illness (long), posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 20:02:30
Why can't I replace my Zoloft w/ natural means....this goes for other drugs too....what I mean is this...lithium & Zoloft work for me...BUT they have crummy side effects...so, why is it so hard for even a top-notch place like Pfeiffer Treatment Center to replicate that effect using natural means? to see the mechanisms of action of drugs and then replicate it with natural means? Carl Pfeiffer said that for ANY drug that can treat a condition that there is a natural alternative that can also do it (that's known as "Pfeiffer's Law")....so then how come they can't study drugs' actions and then replicate them? I guess what I'm also asking is how come Pfeiffer's literature on natural treatments makes SO MUCH SCIENTIFIC SENSE and is based on fact (chemistry, physiology, biology and all that good stuff) YET I can take any number of synthetic, man-made drugs and get VERY effective FAST results and Pfeiffer's treatment consists of handfuls of vitamins, minerals, etc., and after 4 MONTHS I don't even feel much of a difference? (I've noticed some positive things but NOT major effects like w/ drugs). Why do artificial drugs work better than the REAL natural ingredients?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 23, 2003, at 11:31:27
In reply to Larry..Question I've been wondering for long time, posted by McPac on April 23, 2003, at 0:35:59
> Why can't I replace my Zoloft w/ natural means....this goes for other drugs too....what I mean is this...lithium & Zoloft work for me...BUT they have crummy side effects...so, why is it so hard for even a top-notch place like Pfeiffer Treatment Center to replicate that effect using natural means? to see the mechanisms of action of drugs and then replicate it with natural means? Carl Pfeiffer said that for ANY drug that can treat a condition that there is a natural alternative that can also do it (that's known as "Pfeiffer's Law")....
Do you *really* think that's true? I seem to know a lot about similar subjects, but am *I* cured? Physician, heal thyself? Pfeiffer may well be on to some useful treatments, but they're not perfect, and they *are* running a business.
>so then how come they can't study drugs' actions and then replicate them? I guess what I'm also asking is how come Pfeiffer's literature on natural treatments makes SO MUCH SCIENTIFIC SENSE and is based on fact (chemistry, physiology, biology and all that good stuff)
I think it's human nature to want to answer the question "Why?", but don't confuse making sense with being correct and complete.
>YET I can take any number of synthetic, man-made drugs and get VERY effective FAST results and Pfeiffer's treatment consists of handfuls of vitamins, minerals, etc., and after 4 MONTHS I don't even feel much of a difference? (I've noticed some positive things but NOT major effects like w/ drugs). Why do artificial drugs work better than the REAL natural ingredients?
Pharmaceutical drugs are targetted at very specific biochemical events, and they drastically influence the outcome of those events. Whether that's good or bad is quite a different question to answer. Psychotropic medication is potent medicine, but it might be analagous to killing a gnat with a sledgehammer.
I think that, generically, the answer to your question is in matching your expectations to more likely outcomes. If Pfeiffer had a cure, we'd already know it.
I think in metaphor/simile, so forgive me my expressing things this way....
Picture yourself as an older car, tired and burning oil. You can get bursts of power out of it by burning higher octane fuel, and you can cut oil consumption by using heavier oil, but you're going to get more out of the car if you go "high maintenance", and consider the environment you're operating in. Using that car to pull a load up a hill will require that you accomodate that old motor, or serious problems will occur.
In my thinking, psychotropic meds are more like the high-octane boost or the heavy oil. They mask the problem, and do nothing to remedy the underlying difficulties. Moreover, it would always be a mistake to expect the car to run "as new".
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 23, 2003, at 12:14:00
In reply to Larry, Re: The gut, and mental illness (long), posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 20:02:30
> >>>>>>>>>>Is there a lab test that could tell someone if they were/were not properly absorbing their nutrients?
Not that I know of. You use presumptive arguments. If deficiency is associated with a symptom, you have the symptom, and supplementation relieves the symptom, you may be on to something. You learn about yourself. You test things. You go with what seems to work.
> >>>>>>>>>Lar, here is a question that I have been wondering myself: Pfeiffer knows that neurotransmitters are made from amino acids (among other things) YET they don't have me on many amino acids at all, barely NONE (I think methionine is the only one). I would have thought a balanced amino acid supplement would have been useful. What do you think?Restoring digestive processes (acid release and proteolytic enzyme function) solves the whole problem nicely. Protein deficiency due to low intake is unheard of, except in third world countries.
> 1. "Any hidden food allergy or allergies."
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Do these allergies cause psychiatric problems due to Leaky Gut Syndrome, which leads to malabsorption problems? I have both food allergies (intolerance) and outdoor allergies. The food allergies cause my eyes to itch a lot. Could they also be causing far more serious problems? How can I tell if they are?The only way I know is via elimination diets.
> Gluten is the bad boy in celiac sprue, and if you look at the data, about 2/3 of all people with celiac disorder have depression.
>
> >>>>>>I've read about gluten/casein free diets for psychiatric problems. Yet NEVER had a doctor mention it to me.Doctors are trained to deal with overt clinical signs. I keep thinking of thyroid when I think of this, but your thyroid has to virtually shut down before a doctor will diagnose you as hypothyroid. However, it would be inconceivable that one day someone woke up, and their thyroid didn't work. There must be shades of gray between the black and the white.
When you're looking at food intolerances, both acute and chronic exposure are issues. Acute exposure can lead to very obvious digestive complaints, but chronic low-level exposure will also adversely affect digestive processes.
You mention casein as a possible irritant. You look at processed foods, and take note of how many times you see phrases in the ingredient list like, "modified milk ingredients", and similar. What the hell is that? And what is it doing in e.g. a baked sweet roll?
It becomes a huge effort to truly control for incidental exposure, and proper elimination and rechallenge (the process of purposeful intake of a potential irritant to confirm its effect).
> 2. "A yeast condition known as candida."
>
> Whether candidiasis is a clinical entity or not is debatable
>
> >>>>>>>>>I know this is controversial...but I don't know why....aren't there tests to show whether one has candida?Only for massive overt infection, not for the chronic form most mentioned in the alternative literature.
> >>>>>>>>>Again, I am on nothing from Pfeiffer (as far as I know) to address digestive enzyme issues. Yet Pfeiffer is supposed to be very highly regarded in what they do (nutritional biochemical treatment). Why don't they know about this point (I'm sure they do)...so, why don't they treat it?You'd better ask them, not me. Sorry. That was a bit snide. You can't hurt yourself by trying enzyme therapy.
> 4. "A lack of the ability to produce enough stomach acid."
>
> The effect is iatrogenic (doctor-caused) hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) or achlorhydria (absent stomach acid). Doctors would have you believe that these situations are benign, but I must vehemently disagree.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Is this because Dr's WANT us to keep coming back over and over again, because they want to prescribe their high-priced drugs instead or what?They have been taught that the low-acid conditions are benign. Think about it. You come in to the doctor complaining of heartburn, he gives you a pill that solves the heartburn problem. He's not trained to predict whether the solution will itself create a new problem, particularly one so subtle that its true impact may take years to develop.
> So what to do about it? I came to believe that four supplements would have a significant impact: B-12, betaine, bromelain, and magnesium. So, what was the outcome of my supplement trials? Within two weeks I stopped using omeprazole. I have not had GERD since (over a year now). My irritable bowel has been substantially stable
>
> >>>>>>>>>Would these 4 ingredients be useful for most folks that had malabsorption issues?
> (I'm taking all of these except for the bromelain).It depends on the individual circumstances. Those worked for my GERD. And, I believe that I also addressed one major factor influencing my own malabsorption syndrome. I can't generalize from my experience to all people.
> >>>>>>>>Why can some people eat nothing but pure trashy diets, JUNK foods, constant sweets, chocolate non-stop, mega caffeine, even drink non-stop booze, chain smoke, yet NOT have these psychiatric problems.....I'm rambling but WHY are WE SO affected by even slight dietary transgressions! (You don't have to answer, I'm just venting because sometimes it seems like any little fart can push US (psych. patients) over the edge!)We're canaries. Somebody has to be the canary.
> restoring the supply of nutrients and regulation of digestion will result in a shift in bacterial populations.
>
> >>>>>>>>Larry, important point here....I recently read that, for MOST folks, diet wasn't much of a factor in causing this "bad" bacteria shift but rather STRESS was the big factor! Sure makes sense to me!!! STRESS is the SOB that leads to everything going haywire in the body and eventually mind! I'm NOT talking very scientific there, I know, but in plain English STRESS is the precursor of all the bad things that follow. (I sometimes think that if I could live on my own island that most of my problems would vanish).Stress isn't the bad boy, it's how you deal with it. Stress is unavoidable, and natural. Our environment has always been stressful. Chronic stress, *in the absence of restorative diet*, can lead to health problems. The phrase I emphasized there was one I made up in hopes of concisely defining the issue. Fed properly, you will handle stress better. I know there are a zillion exceptions, but how often do you think diet when you think stress?
> That said, taking probiotics cannot hurt, and may well help the process along. I have yet to see convincing evidence of efficacy
>
> >>>>>>>I have read many accounts (NOT clinical studies) of people/natural practitioners citing very positive results but of course the allopathic monopoly doesn't want anybody hearing that. The "natural" methods receive puny funding, comparatively speaking to the allopathic monopoly. I take many studies w/ a grain of salt.The issue is one of controlling variables, not one of not wanting to learn the outcome. By far, the bulk of all the reports citing beneficial effects from probiotics are anecdotal and not double-blind.
Statistics cannot be applied to individuals, right? Well, it works both ways. You cannot generate statistics from individual experience. In other words, you can't define a pattern from anecdote.
> , except in the case of subjects who have been treated with massive doses of systemic antibiotics (like me, right now, for the pneumonia). I will certainly take probiotics after I'm off the antibiotics.
>
> >>>>>>>>> If you took both anti- and pro- biotics at the same time they would just negate each other correct (just wondering)?I'd just kill the probiotic culture. I'd be wasting my money. 24 hours after my last dose of antibiotic, I'll start taking the probiotics.
> 6. "A lack of various nutrients"
>
> I think you know where I stand on that.
>
> >>>>> So...solving a malabsorption problem (caused by leaky gut for example) could result in somebody maybe not even needing many additional supplements?It depends on the individual. Leaky gut syndrome is a conceptual entity, not a defined process.
> 7. "The possibility of parasites."
>
> >>>>>>>> Again, as with candida, couldn't someone be tested to see if they have parasites?
> Wouldn't this be easy to determine?Most of the time.
> >>>>>>>Another thought...with stress being such a factor in leading to leaky gut, which leads to malabsorption, which leads on and on and on to so many problems....that is why Skilled Relaxation is said to be SOOOO important by many natural healers, because it decreases stress, thereby healing the leaky gut problem, thereby resolving a host of problems....stress definitely SUCKS!It's another factor, which alone, cannot solve the problem. You will have the best oucomes through combining a number of techniques. Your approach should address physical, social, psychological, environmental, and spiritual factors.
Lar
Posted by pelorojo on April 23, 2003, at 15:03:00
In reply to Re: Larry..Question I've been wondering for long time, posted by Larry Hoover on April 23, 2003, at 11:31:27
> In my thinking, psychotropic meds are more like the high-octane boost or the heavy oil. They mask the problem, and do nothing to remedy the underlying difficulties. Moreover, it would always be a mistake to expect the car to run "as new".
>
Is that true ("do nothing to remedy the underlying difficulties")? I thought there was speculation that anti-depressants (SSRIs, at least) stimulate neurogenesis in some strategic parts of the brain and that was part of how they worked. If true, it seems that in some way it would get at the underlying problem -- no ?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 24, 2003, at 10:41:18
In reply to Re: Larry..Question I've been wondering for long time » Larry Hoover, posted by pelorojo on April 23, 2003, at 15:03:00
> > In my thinking, psychotropic meds are more like the high-octane boost or the heavy oil. They mask the problem, and do nothing to remedy the underlying difficulties. Moreover, it would always be a mistake to expect the car to run "as new".
> >
> Is that true ("do nothing to remedy the underlying difficulties")? I thought there was speculation that anti-depressants (SSRIs, at least) stimulate neurogenesis in some strategic parts of the brain and that was part of how they worked. If true, it seems that in some way it would get at the underlying problem -- no ?Yes, when they work. I don't mean to sound defensive, but it's reasonable to assume that there are always conditions under which a statement is true, and others where it is not. My choice of language does suggest an absolute, and I didn't really mean it that way....
So, I'll expand on this a little bit. Recent functional neuroimaging studies have shown that there are trends towards the restoration of normal metabolic levels in different regions of the brain when antidepressant treatment is associated with remission of symptoms, but some regions of abnormal metabolic functioning are not restored to normalcy. The reasonable conclusion is that antidepressant therapy is an incomplete treatment for depression; the underlying pathology continues, even in remission. This failure to treat whatever else is still wrong may be related to the phenomenon of med poop-out (my speculation).
Neil Young said that "rust never sleeps". I think he was right.
Lar
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol 2002 Dec;12(6):527-44Functional anatomical correlates of antidepressant drug treatment assessed
using PET measures of regional glucose metabolism.Drevets WC, Bogers W, Raichle ME.
Neuroimaging in Mood and Anxiety Disorders Section, National Institutes of
Health, NIMH/MIB, Bethesda, MD, USANeurophysiological studies of major depression performed using PET imaging
have shown abnormalities of regional cerebral blood flow (CBF) and glucose
metabolism in multiple prefrontal cortical and limbic structures that have
been more generally implicated in emotional processing. The current study
investigated the effects of antidepressant drug treatment in these regions
using PET measures of glucose metabolism. Subjects with primary MDD (n=27)
were imaged while unmedicated and depressed, and, of these, 20 were
rescanned following chronic antidepressant drug treatment. Regional
metabolism was compared between unmedicated depressives and controls and
between the pre- and post-treatment conditions in regions-of-interest (ROI)
where metabolism or flow had previously been shown to be abnormal in
unmedicated depressives. At baseline, the mean metabolism was increased in
the left and right lateral orbital cortex/ventrolateral prefrontal cortex
(PFC), left amygdala, and posterior cingulate cortex, and decreased in the
subgenual ACC and dorsal medial/dorsal anterolateral PFC in the unmedicated
depressives relative to controls, consistent with the results of previous
studies. Following treatment, metabolism significantly decreased in the left
amygdala and left subgenual ACC, and corresponding changes in the orbital
and posterior cingulate cortices approached significance. The metabolic
reduction in the amygdala and right subgenual ACC appeared largely limited
to those subjects who both responded to treatment and remained well at 6
months follow-up, in whom the reduction in amygdala metabolism tightly
correlated with the reduction in HDRS scores. The magnitude of the
treatment-associated, metabolic change in the amygdala also correlated
positively with the change in the stressed plasma cortisol levels measured
during scanning. These data converge with those from other PET studies to
indicate that primary MDD is associated with abnormal metabolism in limbic
and paralimbic structures of the mesiotemporal and prefrontal cortices.
Chronic antidepressant drug treatment reduces metabolism in the amygdala and
ventral ACC in subjects showing a persistent, positive treatment response.
In contrast, the persistence of the abnormal metabolic deficits in the
dorsomedial/dorsal anterolateral PFC in MDD during treatment may conceivably
relate to the histopathological changes reported in these regions in post
mortem studies of MDD.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 24, 2003, at 15:59:37
In reply to Larry, Re: The gut, and mental illness (long), posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 20:02:30
> The last I recall hearing from him, he had been stable for over one year, and was continuing to refine his personal protocol. He gave me some tips
>
> >>>>>> I'd love to know them.I found a few messages Allen sent me, though they're not the ones I was looking for. I've tried to contact Allen to see if he would mind if I shared them with others. I'll let you know.
Until then, you may want to do some reading here:
http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/Depression.htm
There are a number of articles that cover things like candida and food sensitivities and so on. Food for thought, is how I look at it.
Lar
Posted by McPac on April 25, 2003, at 11:58:58
In reply to Re: Allen Darman's ideas » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on April 24, 2003, at 15:59:37
Thanks for ALL of your responses Lar!!
Posted by medlib on April 25, 2003, at 18:33:27
In reply to Re: Larry..Question I've been wondering for long time, posted by Larry Hoover on April 24, 2003, at 10:41:18
Hi Lar--
Very interesting abstract! Would you be willing to share how/where you found it? Browsing NIMH, keyword search, or...? If keyword, do you remember what terms you used where? Thanks!---medlib
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2003, at 19:06:28
In reply to Re: Larry..Question re abstract » Larry Hoover, posted by medlib on April 25, 2003, at 18:33:27
> Hi Lar--
>
> Very interesting abstract! Would you be willing to share how/where you found it? Browsing NIMH, keyword search, or...? If keyword, do you remember what terms you used where? Thanks!---medlibI used keywords histopathology and depression, if I recall correctly. I did that search a few weeks ago in regards to another discussion elsewhere on the net. I was seeking support for my argument that antidepressants were an incomplete treatment for depression, and that expectations that they were (a complete treatment)lay at the root of much disappointment with that treatment modality.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2003, at 22:31:29
In reply to Re: Larry..Question re abstract » Larry Hoover, posted by medlib on April 25, 2003, at 18:33:27
> Hi Lar--
>
> Very interesting abstract! Would you be willing to share how/where you found it? Browsing NIMH, keyword search, or...? If keyword, do you remember what terms you used where? Thanks!---medlibI just checked Medline....the keywords I used were "histology" and "major depression".
Lar
Posted by bluedog on April 25, 2003, at 22:43:25
In reply to Re: Larry..Question re abstract, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2003, at 19:06:28
> > Hi Lar--
> >
> > Very interesting abstract! Would you be willing to share how/where you found it? Browsing NIMH, keyword search, or...? If keyword, do you remember what terms you used where? Thanks!---medlib
>
> I used keywords histopathology and depression, if I recall correctly. I did that search a few weeks ago in regards to another discussion elsewhere on the net. I was seeking support for my argument that antidepressants were an incomplete treatment for depression, and that expectations that they were (a complete treatment)lay at the root of much disappointment with that treatment modality.
>
> Lar
>
Thanks for that LarryThat abstract was excellent.
I happen to completeley agree with you. Doctors, especially psychiatrists do have this tendency to place too much emphasis on pharmacological treatment of depression.
However in fairness to Pdocs they do have their use in an OVERALL treatment plan and they don't really have any useful training beyond prescribing the psychotropic meds that can ASSIST in your recovery from whatever mental illness ails you.
I have come to realize more and more that I am responsible for my own recovery using all the tools at my disposal using a holistic approach. I use my Pdoc for the pharmacological aspect of my treatment but as soon as I start talking about natural remedies and trying to discuss nutritional approaches or dietary supplemental approaches whether they be vitamins, minerals or herbs my Pdoc's eyes just glaze over. I think this would be the case for most Pdocs.
So I don't waste my time trying to "teach" my Pdoc new approaches to treatment that may work but I simply let him know what I am doing so that he can assess the safety of whatever I am doing in the context of the particular meds he has prescribed.
My Pdoc is not against me using a multi-pronged treatment approach to my illness that includes alternative methods and he in fact encourages this approach. It's just that he does not have the formal training to deal with these approaches himself and I respect him for being upfront enough with me to admit this to me. In fact I happen to have a very good working relationship with my Pdoc and he respects the knowledge and insight that I have gained into my illness through my own research and through participation in sites like PB and he now allows me a LOT of latitude when it comes to what meds I take and the doseages of my meds that I take. If I come up with an approach or a med I want to try and give him the research to back up my arguments...then 9 times out of 10 he will actually go along with my suggestions.
Perhaps Pdocs of the future will receive training that embraces using holistic approaches (such as nutritional approaches) and they will use these natural methods FIRST before casually reaching for their prescription pads to write out a script for the latest SSRI the drug reps have just told them about.
There you have my thoughts on this issue Larry.
warm regards
bluedog
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