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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 17:05:22
I've been taking caplets of omega-3 from fish oil for almost a week now. I am up to 4 1000-mg caplets per day, which translates to 720 mg of EPA and 480 mg of DHA.
I am feeling a little better in past few days, but of course, have no idea if it is at all related to the fish oil.
The slight "essence of fish" when I burp is the only issue, and not one that bothers me, really.
Does anyone know how much omega-3, and how much specifically of either EPA or DHA I should be aiming for for benefits in treating depression? Someone mentioned 1000mg--but is that combined EPA and DHA? Is one more important than the other?
Thanks
Posted by linkadge on January 11, 2003, at 17:58:43
In reply to Fish Oil update and questions, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 17:05:22
Some studies show that 1 g of epa per day
is effective in aleviating some symptoms of depression. The Dha is less studies but
probably still important.Linkadge
Posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 18:50:45
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions, posted by linkadge on January 11, 2003, at 17:58:43
Thanks. I did some browsing and found a post by Henry O.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021122/msgs/128879.html
that gives some info links on fish oil. This one:
http://www.bipolarchild.com/newsletters/0501.html
is very good. It also touches on the epa vs dha thing, saying one scientist thinks of the difference as dha=structure and epa-function. fwiw.
In any event, I also read some articles about that study you are refering to, I think, where one gram of epa was looked at vs. 2 gm, 3, 4, and placebo, and showed that 1 was effective. There was another by Stoll on bipolar that used something like 10 gms of epa. That is a lot of fish oil!
Aparently, there are "pure" epa preparations available in England, acc. to one site I read.
I also learned from browsing that most oil preps have more epa than dha in them.
So, with my current product, to get 1 gm of epa per day, I will have to take 6 caplets each day.
BTW, I was just thinking about fish in my diet. I have essentially been a vegetarian for almost 40 years, since early adolescence but have been a fish eating vegetarian for the past dozen or so years. In my late 20's, I found myself having yearly fish cravings that would last about 2-3 weeks, and would be satisfied by eating a tuna sandwich from the local deli for lunch every day. Then I'd be sick of the fish binge and stop, and the craving would not appear until about 1 year later. This happened for a few years, only the cravings started to stay with me for longer periods and I started widening my repetoire of fish foods, and it stopped being a binge kind of thing. Finally, when the cravings for fish became more normalized, ie, less of intense, episodic thing, I realized that my body was seeming to need it, and just decided that fish would become part of my diet. I guess I had reached an age (thirties) when the moral inconsistency of being a fish eating vegetarian didn't bother me as it once would have. It requires a fair amount of denial, which I think develops with age! Denial helps me not focus too much on the origins of the fish food. Of course, I did once freak out in a pub in England when my fish meal came and I saw that it was a whole fish, head tail and all. They were very kind and took it back, but probably were muttering, "crazy american" under their breath, I'm sure.
Anyway, now that I have read some material that seems to suggest that people with depression are deficient in the omega 3 essential fatty acids, I wonder if that is why I had these fish cravings. I also wonder what role my not eating fish before that might have had in my developing depression. Hmmm....I'll never know, will I. Oh well.
Posted by BekkaH on January 11, 2003, at 20:00:14
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 18:50:45
Noa, hi. If you don't mind my asking, what other meds are you on besides omega-3 FA's and Adderall-XR? Thanks.
Bekka
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 11, 2003, at 20:03:20
In reply to Fish Oil update and questions, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 17:05:22
optimal depression treatment is at 1000mg or 1 gram of EPA. Schizophrenia is at 2000mg of EPA or 2 grams of EPA. Bipolar hasn't been ironed out as well, but the authority seems to be Andrew Stoll and the doses were all over the map.
EPA seems to be to key as opposed to DHA. I use Omegabrite (and no I don't sell it!). Aside from pure EPA which no one seems to make except a pharma company is Scotland I think Omegabrite gets the most frequent plugs from varying sources I've read. At www.omegabrite.com you can get the oil and the book. No fishy burps either...
The interesting part however is that omegabrite is owned by Andrew Stoll's wife and Andrew Stoll is the #1 credited omega-3 researcher in the US, but considering all the studies for pharmaceuticals are subsidized by the pharma companies themselves I guess the situation isn't entirely unique.
Scott
PS. The stuff is helpful there is no question in my mind. After stopping for a few days I notice it..
Posted by BekkaH on January 11, 2003, at 22:28:14
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions, posted by Mr.Scott on January 11, 2003, at 20:03:20
Mr. Scott,
Hi. In his book, Andrew Stoll recommends some other brands of Omega-3 FA's, in addition to his own brand.Bekka
Posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 22:45:47
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions-Noa, posted by BekkaH on January 11, 2003, at 20:00:14
Here is my cocktail:
Adderall XR 30 mg x 3
Synthroid 50 mcg
Cytomel 12.5 mcg x2
Effexor XR 262.5
Serzone 500 mg (about 2 hours before bed)
Lorazepam .25 mg (about 2 hours before bed)
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Chromium Picolinate 400 mcg
Multivitamin
Fish oil-- I am up to 1200 mg omega3 (720 EPA and 480 DHA)
I also take:
Glucophage XR (metformin) for insulin resistance)
Tetracylcine (for skin)
Alesse (b.c. for regulating hormones)I am a walking medicine cabinet, essentially. I remember when my previous pdoc first wanted me to add a 2nd AD and I balked at the idea. I envy people who respond to one med.
Posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 23:05:24
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions-Noa » BekkaH, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 22:45:47
I continue to read what I can on this, and as I am surfing on this topic, I came across the site below. Apparently, there is a study underway at NIH on bipolar and omega-3s, that is recruiting participants.
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/c/w2r/show/NCT00010868?order=1&JServSessionIdzone_ct=pd5igfg4n1
Posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 23:07:04
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions , posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 23:05:24
Oh, I guess nevermind--you guys probably already knew about this. It is Dr. Stoll's study at McLean Hospital in Boston. I guess he is looking at larger numbers of people now, though.
Posted by HenryO on January 12, 2003, at 5:08:15
In reply to Fish Oil update and questions, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 17:05:22
I have posted some good links and info on brand and doses in my update above that will answer many questions.
Posted by Arthurgibson on January 12, 2003, at 6:53:18
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions, posted by HenryO on January 12, 2003, at 5:08:15
I am starting to get suspicious that some of these posts may be pushing commercial product. No offence intended to those who are posting with the best of intentions at heart.
I repeat what I have said before on this board. I take a swig of cheap cod liver oil (less than US$1.00 per bottle) morning and evening and I have felt a dramatic improvement on my depression and anxiety problems since July 2002. I have dropped all other medication and feel better than I have for years. My sleep and vision have also improved.
So before you spend heaps of money on expensive capsules, try the cheap stuff and see if it works. Most people can not afford the dear stuff and they should not be put off trying the low cost alternative.
I live in the UK and shop at TESCO. Their low cost low fat margarine has large amounts of EPA. This must also help to suplement this vital ingredient.
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 12, 2003, at 20:53:19
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions-Mr. Scott, posted by BekkaH on January 11, 2003, at 22:28:14
Yes I did see that. Thanks for pointing it out again.
Posted by BekkaH on January 12, 2003, at 21:14:18
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions-Noa » BekkaH, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 22:45:47
> Here is my cocktail:
> Adderall XR 30 mg x 3
> Synthroid 50 mcg
> Cytomel 12.5 mcg x2
I envy people who respond to one med.
>
**********************************************Hi Noa. Thank you for that information. I envy those who can tolerate polypharmacy. I can barely tolerate one med, let alone two. I experience terrible drug interactions. I imagine that the older I get, the more of a problem that will become since elderly people must often be on multiple medications. I'm interested to know why you take BOTH synthroid AND cytomel. Also, do the thyroid medications cause a problem with Adderall, as far as increasing the likelihood of palpitations, etc.? Are you hypothyroid or is the thyroid medication used for AD augmentation?
Thank you.
Bekka
Posted by Noa on January 12, 2003, at 22:30:56
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions-Noa, posted by BekkaH on January 12, 2003, at 21:14:18
>>I envy those who can tolerate polypharmacy.
My problem is that I couldn't tolerate higher doses of the one AD (effexor), so combining helped. At this dose, the side effects are more bearable, and the Serzone counteracts some of the side effects, while adding more AD effect.
>>I'm interested to know why you take BOTH synthroid AND cytomel.
Because it is more effective for hypothyroid. Synthroid (T4) is the more stable, storage form, of the hormone, while Cytomel (T3) is the less stable, but active form. There is research saying that for some people, there may be a problem converting T4 to T3, so their TSH and T4 blood tests might be normal, but the hormone isn't able to act on cells. BTW, there are also other brands of T4 and T3. See the following for more info:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Noa_s_thyroid_links_000963272558/
>>Also, do the thyroid medications cause a problem with Adderall, as far as increasing the likelihood of palpitations, etc.?
I haven't had any problems. BTW, my endo told me to split the cytomel dose because it is shorter acting, and also to help prevent big fluctuations in the amount in my system, which I think can contribute to palpitations.
>>Are you hypothyroid or is the thyroid medication used for AD augmentation?
Both. My orignial pdoc introduced it to augment, and had me tested. He found that I was "subclinically" hypothyroid. But it was only after seeing an endo (a few years later), who diagnosed primary hypothyroidism and upped the thyroid doses to treat it more aggressively, that I began to really respond to my antidepressants. I went to the endo after the hypothyroid symptoms had gotten much worse--I was pretty sick--some of the symptoms were edema, brain fog, extreme fatigue, weakness (eg, I couldn't open the front door to my office building!), limb pain, and of course, horrible depression.
Posted by HenryO on January 13, 2003, at 2:19:43
In reply to Cod liver oil, posted by Arthurgibson on January 12, 2003, at 6:53:18
You are right. I apologize for being so enthusiastic about a specific comercial brand. Anything that meets certain criteria and personal tolerances is sufficient. However, cod liver oil taken in doses high enough to achive 1000mg of EPA per day would have a toxic amount of vitamin A. It is interesting though that something as yucky tasting as cod liver oil has had such a folk following historically. There must be something to it. Since it helps you, then I hope it works forever. Come to think of it, I've never tried it. I am sure we will hear from someone one of these days who has very negative response to fish oil. We all have such idiosyncratic responses to psychoactive substances, it is simply baffling. Can you imagine what will be learned over the next 20 to 50 years?
Posted by BekkaH on January 13, 2003, at 6:44:51
In reply to Re: Fish Oil update and questions-Noa, posted by Noa on January 12, 2003, at 22:30:56
Thank you, Noa.
Posted by Noa on January 13, 2003, at 18:13:06
In reply to Re: Cod liver oil, posted by HenryO on January 13, 2003, at 2:19:43
I was thinking something similar about old folk remedies like cod liver oil. My only exposure to cod liver oil is from watching old tv broadcasts of The Little Rascals, which I think is from the 30s and 40s--remember how they had to get their cod liver oil? I have to ask my mom and dad if they had to take it as kids.
It also makes me think of "snake oil salesmen", which is now used as a euphemism for the kind of con-artist sales person. In old movies, like The Rain Maker, the snake oil salesman traveled around trying to sell snake oil as a panacea to all that ails you.
Now I wonder if the idea of snake oil didn't originate from someone's experience that it did help people feel better.
About the cod liver oil, though....is it possible it was used as a kind of laxative like mineral oil was?
Posted by Sara Field on January 16, 2003, at 8:02:37
In reply to Re: Cod liver oil » HenryO, posted by Noa on January 13, 2003, at 18:13:06
> About the cod liver oil, though....is it possible it was used as a kind of laxative like mineral oil was?
When I was a child I was given cod liver oil to soften my BMs so you are correct!
This is the end of the thread.
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