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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
I have read on previous post that a person with ADD would not feel the urge to abuse their stimulant. I never had this problem untill I went on Adderall. My ADD has always been manifested in terms of disorganization, learning disabilities and lack of focus,but I also tend to be apathetic and procrastinate. My Adderall works well during the day but when evening falls I never want to chill out and I often take a fell extra and stay up at night.
Posted by bampf on December 27, 2002, at 10:37:25
In reply to Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
I've had similar problems and in the past, i used to drink heavily in the evening to soothe the come down. But I've found a more healthy strategy (I hope!) by taking large doses of the amino acid L-Phenylalanine (1.5g.to 2.5g.)in the evening. It apparently refreshes the brain with "fuel" to re-synthesize neurotransmitters that are depleted throughout the day by the drug's action
Posted by IsoM on December 27, 2002, at 12:53:21
In reply to Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
Taking an extra in pill in the evening because you don't wish to go to bed isn't abusing stims. It sounds more like you're an evening person & not a morning person. I hate getting up. When I'm in my warm, cozy bed, only half-awake, drifting in & out of dreaming, getting up is the last thing I want to do. Each morning I must make myself leave that coxy retreat. I think I'm lazy.
But then when evening comes around, I don't want to go to bed, especially if I'm involved in doing something. I want to milk the enjoyment to the last. It's only when I've had a taxing day at work or have a headache & feel sore all over that bed sounds good.
I wish the days were much longer than 24 hours. I'd like to sleep 10-12 hours at a stretch & then stay up 18-20. Maybe I'm just an alien whose home world has a 30 hour day/night cycle.
^_* just kidding, I'm not that crazy.The best thing is to force yourself NOT to take that extra pill in the evening. Is there anyone at your home who could take control of your pills for a few days to make sure? How about forcing yourself to get up earlier so by evening, you will be sleepier? There's ways that you could work around this.
Posted by Alara on December 27, 2002, at 23:28:10
In reply to Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
I know a guy who is in his thirties, a successful career man with a family, who abuses dexies every day. He was originally prescribed the drug during childhood for ADD. I wonder how much longer his body will take it.
Posted by viridis on December 28, 2002, at 3:27:53
In reply to Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
I agree with IsoM -- taking a pstim at night isn't "abuse" in itself, unless you're using it to get high or stay up for days on end.
I'm a night person and when I get involved in a project etc., I find I'm much more productive in the evening-night. Sometimes, if I need to focus, I'll take a low dose of Adderall at night, and I certainly don't think I'm misusing it. I'd stay up either way; I'd just prefer to be organized and on target if I'm working on something. When I eventually get around to going to sleep, the amphetamine doesn't seem to be any impediment -- if anything, I feel more relaxed and satisfied at having achieved a goal.
I guess it just depends on your motivation for using it, whether you're escalating the dose, and whether it has a negative effect on your life (e.g., chronic lack of sleep). If it does cause a problem, then obviously you should seek a solution; if not, then I wouldn't worry.
Posted by Nala on December 28, 2002, at 15:02:48
In reply to Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
Also diagnosed with ADD & Bipolar II (hence Hx of substance abuse) Yes, I have. In fact, I have used most my prescribed drugs recreationally if I'm not feeling well or have a severe mood swing. Adderall, klonopin whatever.
Posted by Caleb462 on December 29, 2002, at 0:39:55
In reply to Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by noelle on December 27, 2002, at 5:50:19
I don't see why a person with ADD or ADHD would be less likely to abuse a stimulant.
One of the things that bothers me a lot is the common perception that stimulants have a "reverse effect" on ADD/ADHD patients, which is completely FALSE.
I'm not implying you share this perception, just making a comment.
Posted by Noelle on December 29, 2002, at 4:32:47
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim? » noelle, posted by IsoM on December 27, 2002, at 12:53:21
For clarifications, I think what I like is that 40 minutes of complete clarity, confidence and vigilance. My last psychologist suggested that I was merely treating the symptoms of my depression. How do I avoid a complete lack or organizations. I am also adding agian because I am so sick of the way effexor makes me feel and the multitude of other ad's. I am not depressed on AD's but I can't function I get so unmotivated. Its not just one in the evening its alot more sometimes. During the day I never get the urge to over do it. I guess I could try to talk with someone but it seems that I would have a black mark or something. I'm not sure what to do next.
Posted by Noelle on December 29, 2002, at 4:41:32
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by bampf on December 27, 2002, at 10:37:25
Interesting, What are "large" doses of L-pheylanine. I'm assuming it is an amino acid? What made you decide to start taking this, how long have you been taking it and where do you get it
Posted by viridis on December 29, 2002, at 5:42:25
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by Caleb462 on December 29, 2002, at 0:39:55
Well, amphetamines (Adderall) make me feel calm and focused, whereas from what I've read (and seen) these drugs can make non-ADD people hyper and euphoric. I have no problem with sleeping after taking Adderall (or Provigil), while some others take stimulants to stay awake.
Of course, it may not be a fair comparison, because I never take "recreational" amounts, and find anything above a low dose slightly annoying. But I think that the paradoxical (=reverse) effect of stimulants on ADDers is real, apparently compensating for problems with dopamine and norepinephrine availability in key areas of the brain that regulate concentration and impulse control.
In any case, stimulants work well for me and many others with attention problems, and I have no interest in abusing them -- it wouldn't work for me anyway.
Posted by BrittPark on December 30, 2002, at 18:42:20
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by Caleb462 on December 29, 2002, at 0:39:55
> One of the things that bothers me a lot is the common perception that stimulants have a "reverse effect" on ADD/ADHD patients, which is completely FALSE.
My psychiatrist says that his adult ADD patients almost always get a relaxed sensation from stimulants. He even went so far as to say that that reaction is the best diagnostic criterion for ADD.I'm gonna do a little Medlining, but meanwhile do you have some references about ADD patient's reaction to stimulants?
Cheers,
Britt
Posted by BrittPark on December 30, 2002, at 18:59:53
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by Caleb462 on December 29, 2002, at 0:39:55
It's not just my psychiatrist. Here are some references:
Gainetdinov RR, Wetsel WC, Jones SR, Levin ED, Jaber M, Caron MG.
Role of serotonin in the paradoxical calming effect of psychostimulants on hyperactivity.
Science. 1999 Jan 15;283(5400):397-401.
PMID: 9888856 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Millard WJ, Standish LJ.
The paradoxical effect of central nervous system stimulants on hyperactivity: a paradox unexplained by the rate-dependent effect.
J Nerv Ment Dis. 1982 Aug;170(8):499-501.
PMID: 6808087 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Arnold LE.
Paradoxical dextroamphetamine response.
Psychosomatics. 1981 Sep;22(9):805. No abstract available.
PMID: 7313058 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Sorry I couldn't include abstracts as MedLine seems to have it's abstract server down. I'm not sure if all of these support my psychiatrist's contention, but the titles are suggestive.
Cheers,Britt
Posted by viridis on December 30, 2002, at 21:29:21
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim? » Caleb462, posted by BrittPark on December 30, 2002, at 18:42:20
Funny, my psychiatrist said almost exactly the same thing.
Posted by IsoM on December 31, 2002, at 0:33:53
In reply to Re: Would someone with ADD abuse a stim?, posted by Caleb462 on December 29, 2002, at 0:39:55
Caleb, I have ADHD (note the hyperactivity part). When I take Dexedrine, it may not seem to some that I'm calmed down. I talk quickly & gesture lots. I'm bubbly & cheerful. But the funny thing is that's my normal state. While I may seem very animated to some, perhaps even over animated, I'm much calmer inside. And when I wish to be still & read or listen to something, I can, without fidgeting so much - or falling asleep. The calm that a person with ADD feels is internal - a sense of focus & organisation; that the world isn't spinning about.
If I took Dexedrine & became very quiet & still, I'd be worried instead. Much depends on what a person's normal personality is like. I've always been a very lively cheerful person, even as a small child. Everyone of my baby & childhood pictures show the same expression - a big smile from ear to ear. A quieter person with ADD would be equally as calm but show it more.
Posted by viridis on December 31, 2002, at 1:00:00
In reply to Stims calm a person with ADHD? » Caleb462, posted by IsoM on December 31, 2002, at 0:33:53
IsoM expressed the reaction of ADDers to stimulants very well -- a sense of "internal calm" that allows appropriate focus, even if the person seems very animated because it's characteristic of their personality. This describes my reaction to stimulants almost perfectly.
Posted by cybercafe on December 31, 2002, at 11:59:44
In reply to Re: Stims calm a person with ADHD?, posted by viridis on December 31, 2002, at 1:00:00
> IsoM expressed the reaction of ADDers to stimulants very well -- a sense of "internal calm" that allows appropriate focus, even if the person seems very animated because it's characteristic of their personality. This describes my reaction to stimulants almost perfectly.
yeah... i get that effect from large doses of pepsi, but ritalin sr seems to do little for me
Posted by IsoM on December 31, 2002, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Stims calm a person with ADHD?, posted by cybercafe on December 31, 2002, at 11:59:44
Cybercafe, have you tried any other stimulants besides Ritalin? Ritalin doesn't give me that calm like Dexedrine does. I don't know what it is about Ritalin but there's a difference I can feel. It gives focus & alertness but with a somewhat jittery (or something??) feel. No wholly bad but I didn't care for it much at all.
Posted by Caleb462 on January 1, 2003, at 1:23:17
In reply to Stims calm a person with ADHD? » Caleb462, posted by IsoM on December 31, 2002, at 0:33:53
Well, my belief has always been that a low dose stimulant (particularly the "feel-good" stimulants like the amphetamines) will give ANYONE
that sense of "inner focus". This can be easily interpreted as a calming effect, particularly if the person usually lacks inner focus, such as an ADD or ADHDer.Apparently, there is some research to show that there may be a true "reverse effect" going on. It just always seemed unlikely to me.
Posted by viridis on January 1, 2003, at 1:47:41
In reply to Re: Stims calm a person with ADHD?, posted by cybercafe on December 31, 2002, at 11:59:44
I've never tried Ritalin, but any substantial amount of caffeine makes me very edgy and nervous, so a megadose of Pepsi would definitely be out (besides, I prefer Coke -- as in Coca-Cola).
Posted by viridis on January 1, 2003, at 2:08:12
In reply to Re: Stims calm a person with ADHD?, posted by Caleb462 on January 1, 2003, at 1:23:17
"Feel-good" doesn't necessarily equal "inner focus". I've been around enough people who use stimulants recreationally to know the difference, and it really is different if you have ADD. I can't get a high from stimulants, but I definitely get a psychiatric benefit from low doses.
Posted by Caleb462 on January 1, 2003, at 2:47:22
In reply to Re: Stims calm a person with ADHD? » Caleb462, posted by viridis on January 1, 2003, at 2:08:12
> "Feel-good" doesn't necessarily equal "inner focus". I've been around enough people who use stimulants recreationally to know the difference, and it really is different if you have ADD. I can't get a high from stimulants, but I definitely get a psychiatric benefit from low doses.
Yes, I'm aware. I just meant that the "feel-good" stimulants, those with strong dopamine action, are
less likely to cause nervousness, jitters, and more likely to promote that "inner focus." I'm speaking of low doses, of course.You can't get high off of a stimulant?
At theraputic doses, perhaps not, but it would probably be just as easy for you to get high snorting crystal meth as anybody else.. and that's my only point.
This is the end of the thread.
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