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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BeardedLady on November 19, 2002, at 16:26:04
A new article came out about EPA helping depression. It's a type of fish oil. What makes it different from Omega 3?
beardy
Posted by linkadge on November 19, 2002, at 16:36:55
In reply to FISH OIL v. EPA, posted by BeardedLady on November 19, 2002, at 16:26:04
EPA is one of the components of fish oil,
DHA is the other. Generally fish oil or
fish body oil is supplied with a certain ratio
of EPA to DHA.Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 16:46:01
In reply to FISH OIL v. EPA, posted by BeardedLady on November 19, 2002, at 16:26:04
> A new article came out about EPA helping depression. It's a type of fish oil. What makes it different from Omega 3?
>
> beardyEPA is one of the major components of fish oil. For some reason, Western medical science wants to isolate one chemical at a time, and see what that does. I think it's bad enough that people are relying on fish oil (a by-product made from scraps), rather than eating fish itself, which not only gives you the omega-3 fats you need, but also a lot of other nutritious substances.
There is growing evidence that the other omega-3 fat (DHA) found in high concentration in fish oil has effects as a signalling compound (regulating gene activity), as well as being a major structural component of a healthy brain. Your brain is about 60% fat, and about 1/4 of that ought to be DHA. Seafood just happens to be the best way to get these two fatty acids in decent concentrations.
Posted by oracle on November 19, 2002, at 17:28:43
In reply to Re: FISH OIL v. EPA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 16:46:01
Seafood just happens to be the best way to get these two fatty acids in decent concentrations.
Actually, Hemp seed oil is the higest. Also high in the hard to find (in great concentrations) linoleic and gamma-linolenic acids. Hemp seed oil
does not contain THC.
Posted by BeardedLady on November 19, 2002, at 17:44:20
In reply to Re: FISH OIL v. EPA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 16:46:01
> EPA is one of the major components of fish oil. For some reason, Western medical science wants to isolate one chemical at a time, and see what that does.
I guess that's science's job.
>I think it's bad enough that people are relying on fish oil (a by-product made from scraps), rather than eating fish itself, which not only gives you the omega-3 fats you need, but also a lot of other nutritious substances.
It's hard, when you have a family, to eat the appropriate amount of omega 3 fatty fish for dinner more than twice a week. Besides, if this is said to help depression, you have to have it every day. The nutritious substances would come on those two nights a week we have salmon, which I buy five pounds at a time.
> There is growing evidence that the other omega-3 fat (DHA) found in high concentration in fish oil has effects as a signalling compound (regulating gene activity), as well as being a major structural component of a healthy brain. Your brain is about 60% fat, and about 1/4 of that ought to be DHA. Seafood just happens to be the best way to get these two fatty acids in decent concentrations.
Well, then I guess there's no hope for me, since I eat canned tuna or canned salmon three days a week for lunch, salmon twice a week for dinner, and crabcakes once a week.
I was hoping for something to boost the anti-depressant benefits of my Serzone, because I am irritated and angry all the time lately.
But anything is worth a try, so I'll let you know what happens.
beardy
Posted by catmint on November 20, 2002, at 2:26:05
In reply to Re: FISH OIL v. EPA, posted by oracle on November 19, 2002, at 17:28:43
>Actually, Hemp seed oil is the higest. Also high in the hard to find (in great concentrations) linoleic and gamma-linolenic acids. Hemp seed oil
does not contain THC.
Gamma-linolenic acid is avialable directly from the oils of black currant seeds, evening primrose seeds, and borage seeds. Alpha-linolenic acid is found abundantly in the oils of flax, chia and pumpkin seeds; also in dark green leafy vegetables, and soy products.I had no idea that hemp seed oil contained EPA and DHA. THe source I use says that it is found only in fish such as salmon, tuna, and trout; also mother's milk and most snakes (snake oil, yum)!
Most people in the western world are deficient in essential fatty acids inluding GlA, due to rampant stress levels.
Where can I get more info about hemp seed oil?
Thanks, Amy
Posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 3:17:57
In reply to FISH OIL v. EPA, posted by BeardedLady on November 19, 2002, at 16:26:04
You did get my email I sent you as an answer to the EPA & omega-3 that you sent me, didn't you?
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 5:47:15
In reply to Re: FISH OIL v. EPA » BeardedLady, posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 3:17:57
Or does it? I was under the impression
that EPA and DHA could only be found in
fish/animal sources. I believe that HEMP contains
Alpha Linolic which is then converted to
EPA and DHA, (although some may have an
impaired conversion process) Just to
be on the safest side I would take fish
oil or any other direct source of EPA + DHA,
these are the ones used in the studies
and plus these two fats go right to the brainLinkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 8:32:31
In reply to Hemp doesn't contain EPA DHA !??!?, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 5:47:15
> Or does it? I was under the impression
> that EPA and DHA could only be found in
> fish/animal sources.Hemp oil has no appreciable amounts of EPA or DHA. The only 'vegetarian' source of either is algal oil, and it contains only DHA. There is one product that I know of, containing this alga-based DHA, called Neuromin. Your body will convert some of it to EPA, but not any more efficiently than it does the opposite. See below:
I believe that HEMP contains
> Alpha Linolicalpha-linolenic is 18:3 omega-3
gamma-linolenic is 18:3 omega-6
alpha-linoleic is 18:2 omega-9Hemp oil (like flaxseed oil) is a good source of alpha-linolenic acid.
which is then converted to
> EPA and DHA, (although some may have an
> impaired conversion process)Females are consitutionally more efficient at the elongation and desaturation processes than are males, presumably to provide for the demands of pregnancy and lactation. It may be a sampling artifact, but in the first study, males converted none of a radio-labelled alpha-linolenic acid sample to DHA. An alternative explanation is that it takes time to induce enzymes on that pathway, and conversion might gradually increase (from zero), given time for the body to adjust.
From the first abstract:
"Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very
low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for
maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals."
Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):355-64Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of
alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men*.Burdge GC, Jones AE, Wootton SA.
Institute of Human Nutrition, Level C, West Wing, Southampton General
Hospital, Tremona Road, Southampton, SO16 6YD, UK.The capacity for conversion of alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to n-3 long-chain
polyunsaturated fatty acids was investigated in young men. Emulsified
[U-13C]ALNA was administered orally with a mixed meal to six subjects
consuming their habitual diet. Approximately 33 % of administered [13C]ALNA
was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h. [13C]ALNA was
mobilised from enterocytes primarily as chylomicron triacylglycerol (TAG),
while [13C]ALNA incorporation into plasma phosphatidylcholine (PC) occurred
later, probably by the liver. The time scale of conversion of [13C]ALNA to
eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) suggested that
the liver was the principal site of ALNA desaturation and elongation,
although there was some indication of EPA and DPA synthesis by enterocytes.
[13C]EPA and [13C]DPA concentrations were greater in plasma PC than TAG, and
were present in the circulation for up to 7 and 14 d, respectively. There
was no apparent 13C enrichment of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in plasma PC,
TAG or non-esterified fatty acids at any time point measured up to 21 d.
This pattern of 13C n-3 fatty acid labelling suggests inhibition or
restriction of DHA synthesis downstream of DPA. [13C]ALNA, [13C]EPA and
[13C]DPA were incorporated into erythrocyte PC, but not
phosphatidylethanolamine, suggesting uptake of intact plasma PC molecules
from lipoproteins into erythrocyte membranes. Since the capacity of adult
males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of
pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate
membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals.Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):411-421
Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapentaenoic and
docosahexaenoic acids in young women.Burdge GC, Wootton SA.
Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, Southampton, UK.
The extent to which women of reproductive age are able to convert the n-3
fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA),
docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) was investigated
in vivo by measuring the concentrations of labelled fatty acids in plasma
for 21 d following the ingestion of [U-13C]ALNA (700 mg). [13C]ALNA
excursion was greatest in cholesteryl ester (CE) (224 (sem 70) &mgr;mol/l
over 21 d) compared with triacylglycerol (9-fold), non-esterified fatty
acids (37-fold) and phosphatidylcholine (PC, 7-fold). EPA excursion was
similar in both PC (42 (sem 8) &mgr;mol/l) and CE (42 (sem 9) &mgr;mol/l)
over 21 d. In contrast both [13C]DPA and [13C]DHA were detected
predominately in PC (18 (sem 4) and 27 (sem 7) &mgr;mol/l over 21 d,
respectively). Estimated net fractional ALNA inter-conversion was EPA 21 %,
DPA 6 % and DHA 9 %. Approximately 22 % of administered [13C]ALNA was
recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h of the study. These results
suggest differential partitioning of ALNA, EPA and DHA between plasma lipid
classes, which may facilitate targeting of individual n-3 fatty acids to
specific tissues. Comparison with previous studies suggests that women may
possess a greater capacity for ALNA conversion than men. Such metabolic
capacity may be important for meeting the demands of the fetus and neonate
for DHA during pregnancy and lactation. Differences in DHA status between
women both in the non-pregnant state and in pregnancy may reflect variations
in metabolic capacity for DHA synthesis.Int J Vitam Nutr Res 1998;68(3):159-73
Can adults adequately convert alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) to
eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3)?Gerster H.
Vitamin Research Department, F. Hoffman-Roche Ltd, Basel, Switzerland.
A diet including 2-3 portions of fatty fish per week, which corresponds to
the intake of 1.25 g EPA (20:5n-3) + DHA (22:6n-3) per day, has been
officially recommended on the basis of epidemiological findings showing a
beneficial role of these n-3 long-chain PUFA in the prevention of
cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases. The parent fatty acid ALA
(18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used
by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of
the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and
restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that
whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA
occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restricted. The use of ALA labelled
with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated
fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and
3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to
50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an n-6/n-3 PUFA ratio not exceeding
4-6. Restricted conversion to DHA may be critical since evidence has been
increasing that this long-chain metabolite has an autonomous function, e.g.
in the brain, retina and spermatozoa where it is the most prominent fatty
acid. In neonates deficiency is associated with visual impairment,
abnormalities in the electroretinogram and delayed cognitive development. In
adults the potential role of DHA in neurological function still needs to be
investigated in depth. Regarding cardiovascular risk factors DHA has been
shown to reduce triglyceride concentrations. These findings indicate that
future attention will have to focus on the adequate provision of DHA which
can reliably be achieved only with the supply of the preformed long-chain
metabolite.
Just to
> be on the safest side I would take fish
> oil or any other direct source of EPA + DHA,
> these are the ones used in the studies
> and plus these two fats go right to the brain
>
> LinkadgeAbsorption of these two fatty acids from the gut is strongly influenced by the amount of fat in the meal in which they were consumed. Always take fish oil with your fattiest meal of the day. If you eat "Atkins-style", you have no worries.
Lar
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:19:27
In reply to Re: Hemp doesn't contain EPA DHA !??!?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 8:32:31
http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/hort/hemp/hempthesis.htm#essential
Essential Fatty Acid Profile
Average values for the essential fatty acid profiles of hemp seed oil from eight varieties of industrial hemp are given in Table 3. The values for linoleic acid (omega-6), gamma linolenic acid (GLA), and linolenic acid (omega-3) fall well within the values for other hemp varieties around the world (see Table 4). It is particularly interesting to note that the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids are almost exactly three to one (Table 3) for all varieties. This is the nutritionally optimum ratio for human health, and Jones (1995) feels that a precise three to one ratio will be desirable for future production of hemp seed for human consumption. Table 5 provides the complete fatty acid profile for the eight varieties of industrial hemp. The N refers to number of sites averaged and Felina 34 and Fedora 19 had 15 and 14 sites averaged respectively.
Again, geographic effects cannot be detected from these data due to the large sampling range and averaging of EFA content across this range. Varietal differences appear minute, the only exception being FIN-314 which exhibits a GLA content of 4.22 %. This result concurs with Callaway et al. (1996) who reported a GLA content of 4 % in samples of FIN-314 seed. The high GLA content of FIN-314 relative to the other varieties examined in this report warrants further investigation and trials of this variety in northern Ontario. This may prove to be an important characteristic as GLA is of particular interest to the pharmaceutical industry.
Przybylski et al. (1997) demonstrated that European varieties grown in Manitoba showed a ten percent increase in linolenic acid and GLA content compared to the original seeds. Such a comparison was not possible for the data presented in this report since the original seeds were not analyzed for fatty acid content, and future studies will be necessary to test whether seeds grown in Northern Ontario show increased EFA content over the original European seeds.
Posted by catmint on November 20, 2002, at 14:03:14
In reply to Re: Hemp doesn't contain EPA DHA !??!?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 8:32:31
>Absorption of these two fatty acids from the gut is strongly influenced by the amount of fat in the meal in which they were consumed. Always take fish oil with your fattiest meal of the day.
Larry, please explain. I usually take fish oil in the morning after a meal of rice, walnuts, and milk. That is not a non-fat meal, still it is probably low-fat. Is that enough fat to absorb the EPA/DHA?
Amy
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 14:21:37
In reply to Re: absorption of fatty acids » Larry Hoover, posted by catmint on November 20, 2002, at 14:03:14
> >Absorption of these two fatty acids from the gut is strongly influenced by the amount of fat in the meal in which they were consumed. Always take fish oil with your fattiest meal of the day.
>
> Larry, please explain. I usually take fish oil in the morning after a meal of rice, walnuts, and milk. That is not a non-fat meal, still it is probably low-fat. Is that enough fat to absorb the EPA/DHA?I base that opinion on the following study, and other similar reports. It is the total fat content of a meal which determines the secretion of the emulsifying components in bile, and also of the pancreatic enzyme lipase (which hydrolyzes the triglycerides to their free fatty acid form). If the fish oil supplement is the only really fatty component of the meal, there may not be enough total fat to trigger the release of the chemicals needed to facilitate its uptake.
Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1988 Oct 31;156(2):960-3
Absorption of eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid from fish oil triacylglycerols or fish oil ethyl esters co-ingested with a high-fat meal.
Lawson LD, Hughes BG.
Murdock Pharmaceuticals, Springville, Utah 84663.
The absorption of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) from fish oil triacylglycerols and fish oil ethyl esters consumed in a high-fat meal (44 g total fat) by male volunteers was measured and compared to values previously reported for consumption in a low-fat meal (8 g total fat). Absorption of EPA, but not of DHA, from fish oil triacylglycerols was significantly improved from 69% to 90% by co-ingestion with the high-fat meal. Absorption of both EPA and DHA from fish oil ethyl esters was increased three-fold, to about 60%, by co-ingestion with the high-fat meal, indicating that absorption of fatty acid ethyl esters is highly dependent on the amount of co-ingested fat.
>
> Amy
>
This is the end of the thread.
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