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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 28, 2002, at 22:24:23
Ive read this before in a few places. The availability of ECT is scarce, mostly located at teaching hospitals. Some rural states the ECT availability is about nil. The emotional anti-ECT activists got it taken out of all the public mental health facilities a long time ago. Former military personnel who get their treatment at VA centers dont have the option of getting ECT at VA psychiatric wards anymore. Now its become an almost exclusive form of depression treatment. Its expensive, very expensive. Few psychiatrists do it anymore.
Ive read stories about movie stars and rock stars strung out on hard drugs coming out of rehab so messed up that the only thing that will fix them is ECT.
I do know Medicaid (the government insurance for the poor) will pay for ECT. But overall Im just a little concerned that ECT, the most effective treatment for really severe mood disorders is becoming the treatment for mainly the afluent and wealthy. Has anyone else ever wondered about this? Im concerned that the fears and stigmas of ECT in past decades have made its availability so scarce that now only the rich and affluent have the option of getting it.
The rest of us just get the medication merry go round with a little bit of cheap therapy thrown in.
Posted by Bob on July 29, 2002, at 0:47:44
In reply to Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 28, 2002, at 22:24:23
> The rest of us just get the medication merry go round with a little bit of cheap therapy thrown in.I think you might be romanticizing ECT a little bit. I believe most people, if not just about everyone, who undergoes ECT goes back on ADs. I haven't heard any stories personally of someone who is seriously ill, gets ECT, and then is med free. I could be wrong. Additionally, I'm not sure that ECT is a complete panacea - it is not always effective.
Posted by Phil on July 29, 2002, at 7:00:56
In reply to Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 28, 2002, at 22:24:23
ECT is still the most effective AD. Some people now go for once a month maintenance ECT which, I think, keeps them off of AD's.
Here in Austin, only two doctors do ECT and one is retiring. The other will only do ECT on people over 55. Weird.
ECT saved a family members ass. It should be more readily available.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 11:19:32
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy? » LostBoyinNC1, posted by Bob on July 29, 2002, at 0:47:44
>
> > The rest of us just get the medication merry go round with a little bit of cheap therapy thrown in.
>
> I think you might be romanticizing ECT a little bit. I believe most people, if not just about everyone, who undergoes ECT goes back on ADs. I haven't heard any stories personally of someone who is seriously ill, gets ECT, and then is med free. I could be wrong. Additionally, I'm not sure that ECT is a complete panacea - it is not always effective.
>I never ever said that people who undergo effective ECT dont go back on meds. In fact its well known that to prevent relapse they must always go back on meds. ECT is the most effective treatment for causing FULL REMISSION in the most severe mood disorders and thats a hard fact and has been studied into the ground. There are more than fifty studies backing this up. Nothing and i mean NOTHING has the efficacy at treating severe mood disorder states like psychotic depression, manic depression and the melancholia subtype as ECT.
>
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 11:34:14
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by Phil on July 29, 2002, at 7:00:56
> ECT is still the most effective AD. Some people now go for once a month maintenance ECT which, I think, keeps them off of AD's.
> Here in Austin, only two doctors do ECT and one is retiring. The other will only do ECT on people over 55. Weird.
> ECT saved a family members ass. It should be more readily available.Yeah...this is what Im afraid of. That I might need ECT someday real bad and it wont be available to me. Either you will have to be rich and affluent to get it or live in a large metro area. The asshole anti-ECT activists are trying to make it harder and harder to get ECT. Most of the anti-ECT activists want to totally ban all ECT. I wonder how many people they scare off and prolong severe illness and disability. Sometimes I wonder if the federal government should be brought into this issue, to stop the anti-ECT verbal terrorist activity which goes online everyday. Many of the websites which claim to provide information about ECT are totally bogus websites, run by mentally ill individuals (many of whome are obviously psychotics in denial of their own mental illness) who have no idea what they are talking about.
Just because ECT used to be abused a lot and the old forms of it messed people up doesnt mean that there isnt a lot to it as far as treating severe depression. Modern ECT is safe and fundamentally different from the type of ECT portrayed in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."
ECT isnt used as a form of "behavioral control" anymore like it used to be and like Ive described repeatedly, that the modern form of it you are properly oxygenated and that prevents the breath holding and oxygen deprivation to your brain which was responsible for the brain damage claims back in the old days.
For example I recently found out that ECT is no longer done in the nearby town of Greensboro, NC where I live. Its done nowhere near where I live anymore I found out recently. If I want to have ECT Id have to travel to Winston Salem (almost an hour from me) or Charlotte (over an hour) or UNC or Duke Hospitals (an hour and a half from me). Thats ridiculous. It should be available closer to me than that. What about people who live in truly rural areas who need ECT? What do they do? Die? Committ suicide? Lie around in their own shit cause they cant get out of bed from catatonic depression?
Posted by Compucat on July 29, 2002, at 13:50:41
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 11:34:14
I've recently become interested in ECT as a treatment, simply because looking back, I probably should have had it in February to kick me out of severe depression (I would say I am about 40% out of this current bout).
So, I have started investigating what is available around my area. LostBoy, I live in the suburbs of a large city in Canada, and I guess I have gotten used to hour long drives to get to any major medical treatment facility *grin*. However, I do understand that having treatments as an outpatient would be pretty challenging regarding travel/support, etc.
I know there is a mental health hospital in my general area (within that one hour drive) that performs ECT (they did it on my Dad years back).I shouldn't speak before I get all of my information, but I am under the impression that the majority of ECT patients there are older.
There is also a university hospital here (again that infamous 1 hour plus drive) that has a mood disorders clinic that takes in (either inpatient or outpatient) a limited number of patients. I am not sure if ECT treatments are performed there though - it's possible that patients may be referred to the mental health hospital instead).
In Canada, with our social health system, I wouldn't say that ECT has become a treatment for the wealthy. However, it seems more and more that in the future there could possibly be a true two-tier health system here, and if that is the case, I assume many different treatments, ECT or otherwise, could become something that requires the patient to pay outside of their government health care plan.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 17:45:59
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by Compucat on July 29, 2002, at 13:50:41
> I've recently become interested in ECT as a treatment, simply because looking back, I probably should have had it in February to kick me out of severe depression (I would say I am about 40% out of this current bout).
Same here. If I had it to do all over again I would have taken the advice of my psychiatrists and had it several years ago.
.
> There is also a university hospital here (again that infamous 1 hour plus drive) that has a mood disorders clinic that takes in (either inpatient or outpatient) a limited number of patients. I am not sure if ECT treatments are performed there though - it's possible that patients may be referred to the mental health hospital instead).You should be able to get competent ECT as an outpatient these days, in any location. With the improvements and safety of modern ECT, there is no reason anyone needs to go inpatient for it these days except for maybe the first treatment or two.
>
> In Canada, with our social health system, I wouldn't say that ECT has become a treatment for the wealthy. However, it seems more and more that in the future there could possibly be a true two-tier health system here, and if that is the case, I assume many different treatments, ECT or otherwise, could become something that requires the patient to pay outside of their government health care plan.
Yeah...I have a feeling in the future ECT is going to be the depression treatment for the rich. The rest of us will be relegated to drugs and cheesy forms of talk therapy.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 29, 2002, at 17:55:38
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by Compucat on July 29, 2002, at 13:50:41
Thank your local ECT activists, who are a small but loud minority, for making ECT harder and harder to obtain. The cult of scientology is behind much of it, but also some of these "psychiatric survivors" groups are behind a lot of it. Most of these folks refuse to believe anything is wrong with them, despite the fact they live marginal lives and hallucinate, hear things and cant think straight. Many of them draw SS disability because they wont get treated. Because they are politically organized now and vocal, we the sufferers of mental illness who would like to get better have it even harder.
Recently Max Fink's ECT website was taken down. It was very informative about ECT. It was one of the few good ECT websites around. I agree Max Fink is not an angel by any means and probably did some distasteful things to patients in the fifties and sixties before psychiatry reform, but the guy knows what he is talking about when it comes to ECT and severe mental illness. He is an expert in catatonia as well.
Posted by Ritch on July 29, 2002, at 22:35:44
In reply to Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 28, 2002, at 22:24:23
> Ive read this before in a few places. The availability of ECT is scarce, mostly located at teaching hospitals. Some rural states the ECT availability is about nil. The emotional anti-ECT activists got it taken out of all the public mental health facilities a long time ago. Former military personnel who get their treatment at VA centers dont have the option of getting ECT at VA psychiatric wards anymore. Now its become an almost exclusive form of depression treatment. Its expensive, very expensive. Few psychiatrists do it anymore.
>
> Ive read stories about movie stars and rock stars strung out on hard drugs coming out of rehab so messed up that the only thing that will fix them is ECT.
>
> I do know Medicaid (the government insurance for the poor) will pay for ECT. But overall Im just a little concerned that ECT, the most effective treatment for really severe mood disorders is becoming the treatment for mainly the afluent and wealthy. Has anyone else ever wondered about this? Im concerned that the fears and stigmas of ECT in past decades have made its availability so scarce that now only the rich and affluent have the option of getting it.
>
> The rest of us just get the medication merry go round with a little bit of cheap therapy thrown in.Hi,
IF they could arrange ECT for folks that need it which would make ECT look very CHEAP compared to medications and psychotherapy to the insurance companies it would probably have a new found renaissance! The insurance companies are looking for every way to cut down on costs. I wonder if you could get one maintenance ECT session for *less* money than a couple of AD scripts and a pdoc visit twice a month? Of course, that would assume doing it say on a Friday (taking one day off work), and being able to return on the following Monday. Don't know just guessing here. Economics seem to rule when everybody is losing money. Anybdoy have any $$ numbers $$ on a maintenance ECT session?
Mitch
Posted by deli on July 30, 2002, at 16:21:06
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy? » LostBoyinNC1, posted by Ritch on July 29, 2002, at 22:35:44
>
>
> IF they could arrange ECT for folks that need it which would make ECT look very CHEAP compared to medications and psychotherapy to the insurance companies it would probably have a new found renaissance! The insurance companies are looking for every way to cut down on costs. I wonder if you could get one maintenance ECT session for *less* money than a couple of AD scripts and a pdoc visit twice a month? Of course, that would assume doing it say on a Friday (taking one day off work), and being able to return on the following Monday. Don't know just guessing here. Economics seem to rule when everybody is losing money. Anybdoy have any $$ numbers $$ on a maintenance ECT session?
>
> Mitch
>
>
I don't think drug companies would like your idea!!
Deli
;)
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 16:39:44
In reply to Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?mitch, posted by deli on July 30, 2002, at 16:21:06
> >
> I don't think drug companies would like your idea!!
> Deli
> ;)
>
Yeah thats another thing Ive not mentioned on here before. The drug companies dont like ECT because ECT is so effective, its major competition for the pharmaceutical companies. When Max Fink had his ECT website up, he discussed this aspect of ECT. He says that the pharmaceutical companies stymie interest and research in ECT. While ECT might be the best choice for a lot of people.
Posted by Chloe on July 30, 2002, at 19:27:10
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?mitch, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 16:39:44
Posted by Ritch on July 30, 2002, at 22:16:04
In reply to Re: Has ECT become the treatment for the wealthy?mitch, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 30, 2002, at 16:39:44
Posted by mist on July 31, 2002, at 0:00:59
In reply to Look for a ShockMart in your neighborhood soon! :) (nm), posted by Ritch on July 30, 2002, at 22:16:04
This is the end of the thread.
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