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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science » omega man, posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 5:22:48
Hell, if any one doesn't think that alternative medicines, herbal remedies, & different supplements aren't profit driven too, they're not very aware of how this system & its economics work. I worked in the health food business, managing one of a small chain of health food stores - *very* profit driven (sell the customer the most expensive brand by telling him it's the most effective, blah, blah...). The hypocrisy bothered me & if you don't think it's behind all such enterprises, you're looking at it with rose-tinted glasses.
I've got enough of a background in biology & sciences to know whether something sounds right or not. If you read claims carefully, you'll see how carefully so many of these claims nicely skirt around stating facts.
Sure, you may have well-meaning individuals who really believe that their own goals are to help others, but you can get that in any organisation from religion, to politics, to schooling, to medicine but the bottom line is "if it doesn't make good money, it'll fail".
So with anything, you should ask for proof to decide whether to trust it & give it a try or not. Is it backed with hard facts & solid information that is logical and/or sensible? If you don't know enough to make a decision, educate yourself.
Posted by Cam W. on June 11, 2002, at 13:38:18
In reply to Profit Driven Industries, posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
Posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 14:17:04
In reply to Profit Driven Industries, posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
As always IsoM you have a beautiful way with words and said it much better than I did! :)
Jon
Posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 0:45:49
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » IsoM, posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 14:17:04
I appreciate yours & Cam's remarks. I can get on a real rant about these sort of things but try to keep it under control. Right now what I'm working at - gardening & its paraphenelia in a garden centre is work I enjoy. When customers come in asking for pesticides, I have to serve them but they get a small speech (if they're willing to hear it) on the dangers & safe alternatives available. Seeing the Canadian government is phasing out a lot of poisons in the next few years, the chain store I work for is now "talking" the safe alternatives. It's not because they carein the least, it's because the alternatives are where the money will be.
I will tell any customer that's ready to buy something 'cause it looks pretty or seems like a good idea if it's cheaply made or won't grow. One of these days, I'll get in trouble from superiors with my attitude but in the meantime the customers are grateful & I may be building up a loyal clientele of my own. I hate power/money driven greed that runs this world now & am not afraid to state it.
Posted by JonW on June 12, 2002, at 1:53:14
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » JonW, posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 0:45:49
> I will tell any customer that's ready to buy something 'cause it looks pretty or seems like a good idea if it's cheaply made or won't grow. One of these days, I'll get in trouble from superiors with my attitude but in the meantime the customers are grateful & I may be building up a loyal clientele of my own. I hate power/money driven greed that runs this world now & am not afraid to state it.
IsoM,
I was a computer technician and sales person a couple of jobs ago at a local mom & pop shop and had similar experiences to this. I remember telling my customers how it made no sense to buy the most expensive part in many cases. There were several times when a competing processor, for example, beat out the latest one from Intel and at a less expensive price. And a couple of times this was even true not using the latest one from the competetor. Anyway, this type of thing was true for all types of hardware. On the software side, I would take note what reasons customers were bringing back their new computers for repair. In the future, I would then build them so customers were less likely to encounter the same problems. I would also educate the customers on how to keep from causing the problems themselves. In certain cases, I would create icons for the customer to double-click on when they encountered certain problems and this would run utilities I created to fix these problems and keep them from having to bring their computer in. Anyway, I geared what I did toward the customer and my boss hated that! I mean, he also loved me because I was one of the only people who would put up with him... but the way he saw it, if the customer is happy they are not in the store and therefore not spending money. He was ok being the one that caused their unhappiness. We also had a bar in the back and we were drunk a lot of the time, so maybe this explains his view on things :)
Jon
Posted by Cam W. on June 12, 2002, at 10:18:13
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » JonW, posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 0:45:49
IsoM - Yeah, it's the same in pharmacy. People think that OTC cold medications will "cure" a cold, but they only treat the symptoms. Very often people will come in and say that they are starting to get a cold and need to get better by the weekend because they have a wedding, party, function, etc. I always say that I can cover up the cold, but I can't cure it, and since the cold is only starting (ie. with very few symptoms) there really isn't much I can recommend.
The only way to really get rid of a cold is to let is run it's course (on average, 5 to 10 days, depending on the bug). A lot of non-dehydrating liquids can help you pee off the bug, but outside of that the body has to fight it. Sometimes a cold will disappear before it really starts (hurray immune system) but this is not because of the medication a person has taken for it.
(Yeah, yeah .... echinecea is sorta active, but not active enough to pay the price that they are asking for it)
The same is true for weight loss schemes. Last week I had a lady come in and ask me about apple cider vinegar. She had read on the Web about how great it was and wanted my advise. I had done a search on it a couple of years ago for a pdoc (efficacy, drug interactions, mechanism if action, etc.) and could really only find testimonials, no hard science (maybe it works minimally by slightly acidifying the urine).
I told the lady the lady that if she wanted to lose weight that output had to be greaer than input (not entirely true, but a good start) and she looked at me like I was stoopid. She shook her head and took the bottle of pills to checkout anyway. Why did she bother coming to me in the first place if she had all the answers.
Marketing is powerful (and scary). The more convincing the advertisement, the better something sells. People will buy products they don't need, just because the ads tell them to. I am sure that I am guilty of this, too (example - I bought an IMac as my first computer, as I was ... er, am ... fairly computer illiterate, and I was told that Macs are idiot proof - not for this idiot they aren't; and I cannot do some of the things that an IBM or such does).
No wonder third world countries hate us Westerners ... they've been sold on the hype that is inaccessible to them. - Cam
P.S. BTW - That DDT that I made in first-year Inorganic Chem. really did stop ants from coming into the basement suite I was living in at the time (couldn't tell you about the birds or cats, though).
Posted by omega man on June 12, 2002, at 19:52:55
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science » omega man, posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 5:22:48
Idealism..i'm prone to it...my ideal would be that some benevolent group, government organized would have the attitude..that the whole health picture is the "prime directive" and profit has little to do with it.
I did'nt take offence at anything you said..I just don't think profit as an end is healthy way to proceed scientifically on whole...its not good science...
I think this deserves a thread about how drugs get developed..
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:31:12
In reply to omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 14:32:36
The latest (Aug 2002) issue of Psychology Today, page 18
has an article on David Horrobin, M.D., who believes that much of
mental illness, including schizophrenia, comes from problems in the
synapses that convey neurotransmitters. He believes that many
symptoms are due to a shortage of arachidonic acid, which is
anti-inflammatory.His treatment for this shortage? Omega-3 EPA.
According to the article, Horribin is now also the chairman of Laxdale Ltd.,
a Scottish biotech company that makes EPA and other psychotropic substances.
Check it out --
Posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 21:14:32
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:31:12
Do you want to check that over again for me? I don't have access to that issue of Psychology Today. Reason I'm asking is that arachidonic acid is supposed to be very PRO-inflammatory, not anti-inflammatory. It's part of the omega-6 prostaglandin pathway. Was that a typing error or something?
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 22:00:53
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:31:12
Sorry, you're right -- Arachidonic acid is considered to be a participant in inflammation. Perhaps Psychology Today meant to call AA pro-inflammatory, not anti-inflammatory.
Nontheless, the study on treating schizophrenics with Omega-3's is interesting. Here's one using Laxdale Limited oil at http://jerrycott.com/user/peet.pdf
Posted by omega man on June 15, 2002, at 21:26:46
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science, posted by Cam W. on June 11, 2002, at 11:12:01
>So, my question to everyone is, is it the snake oil (eg pig vitamins, relative low doses of omega-3s, laying of hands, spiritual experience, etc.) that has "cured" the consumer; or is it an improved mental set (ie. a subconscious unconditional belief in these untested treatments) causing the remission?
I can't believe you Cam..you were hitting this same line about omega 3 two years ago..practically the same sentence..almost as if you cut and pasted it, word for word.
Don't the amount of threads now appearing tell you anything ?
Psychological ? How about I blindfold you feed you some omega 3 before you sleep and you tell me how you feel the next day..This is no subtle placebo...its a major refresh awareness enhancer, with profound mood stabilization for 8 hours. its had clinical trials at harvard and Sheffield..which if you feel like you want to stick in the mud you can argue lots of holes since the money is'nt there to be made on this chemical and hence the will to prove it beyond the academic interest.
Put it this way is there something you don't understand about this argument ? why would you say what you just said....and how many people suffer because something usefull does'nt get a look in because of attitudes entrenched by non-profitability, causing Pdocs to be blind to something really helpful ?
Omega 3 is in a category of its own..its effect is profound if your brain needs it.
Like I said its also really worrying that the trials don't appear in the search engines anymore.
Posted by omega man on June 15, 2002, at 21:30:25
In reply to Profit Driven Industries, posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
You seem to miss the point..read the original post that started the thread and answer those issues.
Posted by IsoM on June 15, 2002, at 22:33:13
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » IsoM, posted by omega man on June 15, 2002, at 21:30:25
I wasn't responding to the original post but making a comment on alternative treatments in general. Not to say that some aren't good but like everything else, it has to be weighed against what is known to be absolutely true & factual, & what is new & hypothetical. Based on what information we can dig up, a person needs to make a reasonable decision whether to try something or not.
About omega-3 oils, there's real science there, but there's not enough we know about it all yet. But I think people may be jumping the gun a little too fast. In trying to isolate just certain types of fats, other valuable lipids may be missed. When something new is learned, people tend to get overly hopeful that this new discovery is the answer to so many different ills. Trying to take only 'good' fatty acids & avoiding some of what's considered 'bad' (no, I don't mean obviously bad like trans-fatty acids like hydrogenated fats i.e. Crisco) but those like arachidonic acid is sometimes considered 'bad' as it forms more pro-inflammatory prostaglandins rather than the anti-inflammatory ones. But everything in the body needs to be balanced with an opposite. It's the balance that's most important, to not lean too far in one direction than another.
Remember when butter, tea, coffee, chocolate, eggs, milk etc were all considered bad foods? But 'new' evidence shows their benefits after all. I believe the same may be true of many fats & trying to separate some fatty acids from others & take more of those new 'good' ones may instead cause other problems not now known about.
CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) has now got researchers' interest. Where is it found? In animal fats (though not grain-fed animals). How much more will we learn? Vitamins, minerals, & amino acids are somewhat better understood as they've been researched & tested longer, but the study of lipids & their effects on health is pretty new. We honestly don't know enough about lipids & all the roles they play in our bodies. There's quite a few studies being done on CLA & its effects on people & animals right now. More is being learned all the time & retractions of what was previously accepted is being done frequently. What other types of lipids will be discovered to have protective effects on human health?
Time & time again, it comes back that eating a good, balanced diet with variety is the best preventative medicine of all. Only trouble is that trying to find truly natural unadulterated foods has become more & more difficult, not to mention expensive, unless you have your own land & farm. And people like convenience. They're willing to pay more money for foods that don't taste as good & are often unhealthy for us for the convenience. Cooking really healthy AND tasty meals is time-consuming. Yet we can't think we can get what we need by taking more supplements instead. (By the way, CLA capsules seem to be less than 50% effective as compared with natural CLA in foods & FAR more expensive, of course.)
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 0:31:56
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science » Cam W., posted by omega man on June 15, 2002, at 21:26:46
Where could one find a cheap, effective source of Omega-3 with "proper" EPA/DHA ratio -- and how woudl you go about finding a helpful dosage?
Will adding ground flax seed to my diet help?
Posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 2:09:12
In reply to Cheap source, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 0:31:56
I've got flax seed in the fridge...its not been opened since I tried it ages ago....the effect is slight and its horrible on the guts..
For brain problems..it did nought for me..but a ten minute awareness enhancement.
Posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 2:22:01
In reply to Essential Lipids » omega man, posted by IsoM on June 15, 2002, at 22:33:13
The body might need to be balanced..a perfect body and brain usually is...which may be the average genome..but what we end up as calls for extremes as we all know...
I suppose my problem is i feel passionately similarly to the guy who is advocating Nuerology replacing psychiatry...because he has had enough of the psycho-drivel and seeing it take slices out his life and sanity ..
Perhaps you have to experience omega 3..to understand why I get so heated...it cured me of Schizo-affective disorder...I can stand in a crowded street or be in a room of people and just take everything in when I get enough omega 3..also my mood is stable...nothing else touches that...and eating a balanced diet would'nt help..i'm eating the equivalant of 6 salmon a day..
Jesus had schizophrenia and he was a fisherman.. what better peer testing can you ask for than the son of god ??
Posted by IsoM on June 16, 2002, at 3:18:22
In reply to Re: Jesus took fish oil » IsoM, posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 2:22:01
I'm not disputing that omega-3 oils have helped you nor am I disputing that it may help many others too. All I'm saying is that a good balanced diet is the best way to go *IF* we could really get what we need from foods. Unfortunately, few of us can find foods that provide us with what we need. And I'm assuming that that a good diet is more a maintenence thing to keep us healthy rather than to 'cure' us - we'd need to be already physically sound to begin with (which few of us really are).
Heck, I take lipid supplements myself - flax oil & fish oils because I don't think we can get all we need from our diet & because my appetite isn't that big any more. I couldn't eat enough. But I want to make sure I keep my diet good & don't rely just on supplements for my nutritional needs. I've seen too many people with absolutely crappy diets think they can keep healthy by popping some extra vitamins & such. But if you're concerned about your health, mental & otherwise, you probably already do eat good.
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 11:27:32
In reply to Re: Cheap source » Bookgurl99, posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 2:09:12
> I've got flax seed in the fridge...its not been opened since I tried it ages ago....the effect is slight and its horrible on the guts..
>
> For brain problems..it did nought for me..but a ten minute awareness enhancement.Okay -- then, getting back to the original question, where have you found a cheap, reliable source of Omega-3's?
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 11:28:41
In reply to Re: Cheap source » Bookgurl99, posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 2:09:12
Posted by deli on June 16, 2002, at 13:50:43
In reply to Can we stop beating a dead horse here? (nm), posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 11:28:41
I believe that Omega 3 may play a big role in the treatment of mental illness. I have been taking it for a week and I can see some improvement. As far as I know, there are barely any side effects if any, if consumed in high dosages eg. 4-8 grams. Why don't some of us start our own semi-controlled study. We can begin taking a certain amount and report every 2-3 days.
I know it is not scientific, but I don't think pharmaceutical companys are going to do it. Could you imagine the millions in revenue lost if this worked.
Anyways, I am beginning to feel better and thought this could be a little experiment some of us could do. A lot of members in this group seem to know about research and such, maybe someone could design the study.P.S Getting off the subject, I agree in the suspension of the neurology guy. There is no need for foul language. But in my humble opinion he has made more sense than many retarded doctors I've known.
I am going on vacation for a week so won't be able to read posts. In case this takes off I will get back with you in a week.;)
Deli
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 14:24:51
In reply to Re: I have an idea, posted by deli on June 16, 2002, at 13:50:43
>In order for this to work, we'll need a readily comparable source -- will everyone use Omega-3 capsules from Walmart? Or what?
Posted by JonW on June 16, 2002, at 16:27:20
In reply to Re: I have an idea, posted by deli on June 16, 2002, at 13:50:43
>dosages eg. 4-8 grams. Why don't some of us start our own semi-controlled study. We can begin taking a certain amount and report every 2-3 days. I know it is not scientific, but I don't think pharmaceutical companys are going to do it. Could you imagine the millions in revenue lost if this worked.
Hi deli,
I applaud your idea, but there is no way for this to be scientific so why do it? First of all, there is no way for the study to be controlled or even "semi-controlled". What, are we going to buy our own placebos? -- we just won't tell ourselves which we're taking :) We also should be evaluated by a blind doctor, not by ourselves. And we need all of the results to be interpreted by people who know lots about math among other things. There are probably lots of other things that are necessary that those people who know lots about math and other stuff could tell us as well :)
> P.S Getting off the subject, I agree in the suspension of the neurology guy. There is no need for foul language. But in my humble opinion he has made more sense than many retarded doctors I've known.
This discussion doesn't belong here but I'll bite... Dr. Bob has decided not to allow "foul" language and so we should follow his rules. And I have to say, when you just said "retarded doctors", I consider that just as offensive as when LostBoyinNC1 said "bullsh*t doctors" -- which is to say I wasn't necessarily offended by either, but if "bullsh*t" is bad, what you said is every bit as offensive.
Jon
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 16, 2002, at 16:43:20
In reply to Re: I have an idea, posted by deli on June 16, 2002, at 13:50:43
> P.S Getting off the subject, I agree in the suspension of the neurology guy...
That is in fact off the subject, so that discussion should take place over at Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020510/msgs/5662.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 16:55:58
In reply to Re: Cheap source, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 16, 2002, at 11:27:32
I'm so happy to have omega 3 have'nt tried to get it cheaply..compared to the amount spent on drugs previously which I don't need to..its pennies to buy a bottle of this stuff every four weeks..
I go for quality..that is salmon oil...the health stores sell it here and so far no problems getting it...
Posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 17:00:43
In reply to Re: Cheap source » Bookgurl99, posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 2:09:12
I'm just replying to questions you posted...re-read..looks like youre getting confused..
you posted
>Will adding ground flax seed to my diet help?
I replied..and then you tell me not to reply *&*()
confusion...
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