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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Janelle on April 3, 2002, at 1:03:12
Beardy:
I was afraid that if I responded to your post under that rather long thread that has already scrolled somewhat up the board that you might miss it, so I've brought it down here.
First, thanks for the info about green tea. I had no idea you'd have to consume such a massive quantity to get any medicinal benefits. How about caffeine *benefits* so to speak, meaning would you have to drink massive cups of it to get the energy boost, alertness, etc. that you could get from one, maybe two cups of coffee?
Also - chocolate has antioxidants? Wow!
To address your "question" about my thoughts and difficulty reading, although you didn't phrase it as a question, I think I understand what you're getting at. Indeed, some of my posts are long and seem to require much concentration. (thanks for saying that I do a very good job of writing and making my concerns clear - I was a professional writer in another life, pre-illness) HOWEVER, for some odd reason (that even I can't put my finger on!) I am *able* to get on this board and WRITE things out (posts) yet unable to READ anything that's more than a few paragraphs or anything that is one long essay with no paragraphs to break it up. For example, if I click on a topic here that sounds of interest or relevance, if the actual typed message inside is long and especially if it's long with no paragraph breaks, I immediately space out, feel overwhelmed, feel a physical anxiety response and cannot focus on it to read it. I have to get off that post ASAP.
As for your suggestion to practice meditation I have to say "been there, done that" -- my thoughts are SO d@mn intrusive they override any ability to relax and get into a meditative state. Any suggestions for getting around this???
My intrusive thoughts are incredibly POWERFUL - it's as if they control me. Argh.
I also get *performance anxiety* about being able to meditate - I go through the "am I doing it right/properly" kind of thing.
I have another question about something - you wrote: "If you feel helped by your meds to the point that you are able to stop your thoughts, then it is all the more reason you should practice meditating." Why do you say this? If the meds would help me to stop the thoughts, why would this be all the more reason for me to meditate? Just curious. I don't quite follow.
Alas, such is not the case anyway - so far, NO MED is able to help me stop the thoughts.
I have gotten some relief from SIMPLE exercise, and when I say simple, I do mean simple, as in a brisk walk daily if possible. Someone also told me that when the thoughts are driving me up the wall that when I exhale I should do it through my mouth, like blowing out (blowing out the nervous energy created by the racing thoughts) and that works too!
Thanks for all you wrote further above and for answering my questions that I raised in here!
-Janelle
Posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2002, at 9:10:08
In reply to BEARDY: re green tea, rems for anxiety, more:, posted by Janelle on April 3, 2002, at 1:03:12
Janelle:
THIS IS VERY LONG! BUT A LOT OF IT IS YOUR PREVIOUS POST! PLEASE READ IT!
> First, thanks for the info about green tea. I had no idea you'd have to consume such a massive quantity to get any medicinal benefits. How about caffeine *benefits* so to speak, meaning would you have to drink massive cups of it to get the energy boost, alertness, etc. that you could get from one, maybe two cups of coffee?
I'm sure others would argue about those benefits, but I have discovered it's mostly hype. One or two cups of green tea can't do diddly for you health wise. As for caffeine, because we tend to drink smaller cups of tea, you'd probably have to drink two cups to equal the caffeine in a cup of coffee.
But as caffeine contributes to and triggers (in some) anxiety, I can't see why that's a route you'd want to take. If you need more energy, get yourself a mega B vitamin complex; these apparently help you metabolize food better, turning it into energy more efficiently. It has been a godsend for me since I discovered it a few months ago. (NatureMade, Super B--since you may ask!)
> Also - chocolate has antioxidants? Wow!
Indeed. The Japanese have actually started using it in health regimens and adding the information to their packaging.
> I am *able* to get on this board and WRITE things out (posts) yet unable to READ anything that's more than a few paragraphs or anything that is one long essay with no paragraphs to break it up. For example, if I click on a topic here that sounds of interest or relevance, if the actual typed message inside is long and especially if it's long with no paragraph breaks, I immediately space out, feel overwhelmed, feel a physical anxiety response and cannot focus on it to read it. I have to get off that post ASAP.Except for the physical anxiety part, I think everyone has that reaction to things without paragraph breaks, with small type, with long paragraphs. But as I said before, you'll find many internet sites easier to read than these posts. They are often broken up with pictures and captions and blurbs and ads. The type is bigger, and the paragraphs are, generally, much shorter.
> As for your suggestion to practice meditation I have to say "been there, done that" -- my thoughts are SO d@mn intrusive they override any ability to relax and get into a meditative state. Any suggestions for getting around this???
Uh--to quote a shoe ad: Just Do It.
> My intrusive thoughts are incredibly POWERFUL - it's as if they control me. Argh.
Still, I think practicing is part of how you learn to do it.
> I also get *performance anxiety* about being able to meditate - I go through the "am I doing it right/properly" kind of thing.
Well, that's a personality thing, rather than a mental illness thing. Some people have to buy all the gear before they start anything. I like to get a book about the subject before I start. The idea about meditation is so against the performance anxiety thing! It's a way to relieve yourself of stress and pressure. To stop and do absolutely nothing. And the idea is not to control your thoughts, either. It's just to let them come, while reminding yourself that breathing is a better thing to think about. My therapist had me use a mantra, which I changed to "I AM." I repeat that over and over and over. It has even helped me fall asleep at night.
> I have another question about something - you wrote: "If you feel helped by your meds to the point that you are able to stop your thoughts, then it is all the more reason you should practice meditating." Why do you say this? If the meds would help me to stop the thoughts, why would this be all the more reason for me to meditate? Just curious. I don't quite follow.
Then you won't be as discouraged as you are now. You will be able to practice, and you'll be able to use the skill always, even if the meds poop out.
Some people believe they should sit back and let the meds cure them. But I think you have to do a little work yourself. People with physical illnesses, like asthma, for example, should not rely on their steroids and inhalers and pills and do nothing to help themselves. I have seen folks with a good diet and lots of exercise send their asthma into remission, so that inhalers were only needed in emergencies!
> Alas, such is not the case anyway - so far, NO MED is able to help me stop the thoughts.
Then you really have to try everything you can try. But don't expect overnight success! It doesn't take a week to get fat, yet people expect to lose all their weight in an instant! Reprogramming your brain is no exception. It takes a long time. Don't expect to try something every day for a week and have it work by the end of the week. And putting a time limit on it will almost guarantee your failure.
> I have gotten some relief from SIMPLE exercise, and when I say simple, I do mean simple, as in a brisk walk daily if possible. Someone also told me that when the thoughts are driving me up the wall that when I exhale I should do it through my mouth, like blowing out (blowing out the nervous energy created by the racing thoughts) and that works too!
Do everything that works!
Good luck.
beardy : )>
Posted by Janelle on April 3, 2002, at 14:55:04
In reply to Re: BEARDY: re green tea, rems for anxiety, more: » Janelle, posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2002, at 9:10:08
Beardy,
First, thanks for the *warning* that your last post was very long, but that it contained a lot of my previous one - I am pleased to report that I had NO problem reading it ALL. In fact, it was a breeze! :-)
I have a few lingering questions here:
>As for caffeine, because we tend to drink smaller cups of tea, you'd probably have to drink two cups to equal the caffeine in a cup of coffee.
I happen to drink either black or green tea in the SAME MUG that I drink coffee in, so does this mean that I WOULD get approx. the same amount of caffeine from a mug of tea that I would in coffee? (actually, I think that either tea has more caffeine than coffee or vice versa).
For some odd reason, in my current fragile state, with my nervous system out of whack, one cup of coffee sends me into a jittery tailspin (I am a longtime one cup of java drinker and it NEVER did this before), but tea has NEVER given me the jitters. Perhaps the way caffeine is included in tea is more *gentle* or subtle than its presence in coffee. Coffee has always made me more awake, alert, etc. than tea.
> If you need more energy, get yourself a mega B vitamin complex; these apparently help you metabolize food better, turning it into energy more efficiently. It has been a godsend for me since I discovered it a few months ago. (NatureMade, Super B--since you may ask!)
You did anticipate that I'd ask what brand of mega B complex you take! I currently take quite a few different vitamins, including a multiple that has B in it, but I guess I need to augment it with more B? I don't have any fear about doing that because B vitamins are water soluble (they don't remain stored in the body) What part of the country are you in? I ask cuz I'm just trying to determine if the NatureMade brand you mentioned would be available where I live.
BTW, how did you "discover" the mega B vitamins?
I think that's all the questions I have. I read and understood everything you wrote, I thank you for all of it, I greatly appreciate your comments and will take them to heart.
-Janelle :-)
Posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2002, at 15:29:57
In reply to BEARDY: a bit more! » beardedlady, posted by Janelle on April 3, 2002, at 14:55:04
Janelle:
Whoops--wrong about the tea. There's about 45mg. in a cup of tea and about 135 in a cup of coffee (8 oz.). But green tea has less--between 15 and 30 mg.
> For some odd reason, in my current fragile state, with my nervous system out of whack, one cup of coffee sends me into a jittery tailspin (I am a longtime one cup of java drinker and it NEVER did this before), but tea has NEVER given me the jitters. Perhaps the way caffeine is included in tea is more *gentle* or subtle than its presence in coffee. Coffee has always made me more awake, alert, etc. than tea.
That's because tea has way less caffeine, not because it's gentle. Caffeine is caffeine.
> You did anticipate that I'd ask what brand of mega B complex you take! I currently take quite a few different vitamins, including a multiple that has B in it, but I guess I need to augment it with more B? I don't have any fear about doing that because B vitamins are water soluble (they don't remain stored in the body) What part of the country are you in? I ask cuz I'm just trying to determine if the NatureMade brand you mentioned would be available where I live.
East coast. I believe NatureMade is everywhere in the states.
> BTW, how did you "discover" the mega B vitamins?
I drink Tension Tamer tea when I've had a rough day. It contains b vitamins. So I looked them up and found that they are the stress fighters, and I needed some help with that. I also discovered that they help metabolize food and convert it into energy better. So I tried it and felt better the next day.If I were you, I'd take a break from caffeine. (I was getting migraines--still have them--and my neurologist made me quit all caffeine, including my morning cup. Now I drink decaf, which has about 5 mgs.)
Good luck.
Beardy : )>
Posted by IsoM on April 3, 2002, at 15:51:50
In reply to BEARDY: a bit more! » beardedlady, posted by Janelle on April 3, 2002, at 14:55:04
Janelle, it all depends on how long someone steeps their tea. The longer tea is steeped, the more caffeine will leach from it.
Black tea (what's called orange pekoe) is simply green tea from the same plant, Camellia sinesis (means Chinese camellia) that has been fermented & dried. Oolong tea is partially fermented - halfway between the two. Don't steep your tea too much & the caffeine levels will remain low.
Posted by Janelle on April 4, 2002, at 0:48:21
In reply to Re: BEARDY: a bit more! » Janelle, posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2002, at 15:29:57
You wrote: "I was getting migraines--still have them--and my neurologist made me quit all caffeine, including my morning cup. Now I drink decaf, which has about 5 mgs.)"
Interestingly, I have a good friend who gets HORRIBLE intense migraines and her doctor told her to drink COFFEE right away when she gets a migraine - the caffeine in coffee constricts the blood vessels and helps soothe migraines. Drinking coffee works for her migraines. Interesting ... conflicting advice! Hmmm ...
Posted by Janelle on April 4, 2002, at 0:51:35
In reply to Caffeine in Tea vs. Coffee » Janelle, posted by IsoM on April 3, 2002, at 15:51:50
Iso, you are INCREDIBLE. Is there ANYTHING you do NOT know about? Now I discover that you are an expert on TEA. First, biology/anatomy and related stuff, then computers, and now tea! LOL! You are awesome! :-)
So, you are saying that Black tea (what's called orange pekoe) starts out as green tea from the same plant, Camellia sinesis (means Chinese camellia) and then it is fermented & dried. I am guessing that this process is what turns it black?
Again, I'm blown away by your knowledge in such a wide variety of subjects ... incredible ...
tee-tea!
Janelle
Posted by Roo on April 4, 2002, at 9:59:42
In reply to BEARDY: re green tea, rems for anxiety, more:, posted by Janelle on April 3, 2002, at 1:03:12
> As for your suggestion to practice meditation
I have to say "been there, done that" -- my
thoughts are SO d@mn intrusive they override
any ability to relax and get into a meditative
state. Any suggestions for getting around this??
Janelle--I'm gonna butt into this one. I've been practicing
meditation for a year or so...and had these same type
questions and problems when I first started, and still do (and
so do experienced meditators)...it's just part of the process...
the goal isn't to get RID of your thoughts--your not in a battle
to rid yourself of them....You just notice, and come back to the breath....you
just say to yourself "hmmmm....my mind is noisy...how interesting", and come
back to the breath, over and over and over again.>
> I also get *performance anxiety* about being
able to meditate - I go through the "am I doing
it right/properly" kind of thing.This is really common. The truth is there is no right way.
You would just notice that thought "am I doing it right?" and
come back to the breath. No judgements, just noticing. No right
or wrong. It's a really simple thing, but it's hard to do.
One teacher recommended that when you meditate, and you start
noticing your thoughts racing...you simply say to yourself "thinking"
(gently, non judegementally) and come back to the breath. I do that
sometimes, and it's helpful because you start to realized YOU are not
your THOUGHTS. Thoughts are just thoughts...it's just what our mind does...
but it's not who we are. Believe me, if you do it this way, you will find
yourself saying "thinking" every 2 seconds, but that's okay...that's just
how it is, and your job is to just notice it, not to judge it.>
I hope this is helpful. Meditation has changed my
life. I need it as much as I need exercise and it has
become a really important part of my daily life. And it's
helped me not to get freaked out by my negative thoughts b/c
I don't take it personally...it's just the mind doing it's
yackey yack thing, no big deal. It's easy to get drawn into
the drama of our thoughts/emotions...but if you can just notice
your thoughts, and not try and figure them out, and feel your emotions,
without feeling there's something "wrong"....it really helps lead you
to a greater calm and freedom and wisdom.
This is the end of the thread.
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