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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 19:02:56
I have this reversed day-night thing with my body, meaning that I feel awful during the day, all I want to do is lay down, rest and try to sleep but then at night (especially late at night) I seem to perk up and feel almost *normal*. My sister read somewhere awhile back that if a depressed person stays awake for 24 hours they can re-set their body clock and rid themselves of the depression (which is often worse in the am and lifts in the pm). Has anyone heard of this?? Thanks.
Posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 20:20:30
In reply to Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression?, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 19:02:56
Hi Janelle,
It works for me. I generally pull an all-nighter at work at least once a month. I'm bipolar II, and staying up all night sometimes triggers a mild hypomanic response, which helps pull me up out of my can't-get-anything-done funk. However, others caution that some bipolars can be sent into full-blown mania by using this technique, so be careful.
It certainly doesn't end the depression, at least not for me, but it does help reset that clock and gives me a good break from the dullness. Stay active and expect to eat A LOT to stay awake!
I'll be interested in reading other people's experience too.
Mark H.
Posted by OldSchool on March 13, 2002, at 20:56:03
In reply to Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression?, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 19:02:56
> I have this reversed day-night thing with my body, meaning that I feel awful during the day, all I want to do is lay down, rest and try to sleep but then at night (especially late at night) I seem to perk up and feel almost *normal*. My sister read somewhere awhile back that if a depressed person stays awake for 24 hours they can re-set their body clock and rid themselves of the depression (which is often worse in the am and lifts in the pm). Has anyone heard of this?? Thanks.
The above is totally untrue. In fact its the opposite. You need sleep for your health. Sleep is your body's "damage control" system. Sleep is when your body and brain recover and rebuild for the next day. If you are chronically sleep deprived, for whatever reason, you arent going to be healthy.Also, severe sleep deprivation is one of the things which can cause psychosis to develop. Sleep deprivation is one of the worst things you can do for depression. If you stay awake long enough (four or five days), you will probably start to hallucinate.
What will make depression go away is getting good quality sleep for a change. Not sleep deprivation...that just worsens it.
Old School
Posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 21:44:48
In reply to Re: Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression?, posted by OldSchool on March 13, 2002, at 20:56:03
I think you may have misunderstood my post here - I was referring to staying awake for *only* 24 hours, ONE day, not 4-5 days. I know how important sleep is for your health, etc. I wasn't suggesting "severe sleep deprivation" at all! My sister had heard somewhere that keeping a depressed person up for just 24 hours could re-set their body clock so they would begin sleeping at night and being able to be awake and functional during the day.
Posted by christophrejmc on March 13, 2002, at 22:09:12
In reply to To OLD SCHOOL: » OldSchool, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 21:44:48
I guess it's worth a shot, but it doesn't do much for me. I also feel much better during the night-time (peak @ 12:00-3:00am). I've tried quite a few things, but I have never been able to normalise my sleep/mood rythym. Is it possible that you are bipolar and are experiencing ultra-ultra-rapid (ultradian) cycling?
I believe that during sleep deprivation therapy, patients are kept up until two hours before their usual waking time, and sleep until then. This is continued for 3-4 nights. The effect can be dramatic, but it rarely lasts longer than a few days. If you decide to do this, it would be best to do it under (professional) supervision. (Also, don't drive/etc. afterwards.)
-chris
Posted by OldSchool on March 13, 2002, at 22:40:13
In reply to To OLD SCHOOL: » OldSchool, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 21:44:48
> I think you may have misunderstood my post here - I was referring to staying awake for *only* 24 hours, ONE day, not 4-5 days. I know how important sleep is for your health, etc. I wasn't suggesting "severe sleep deprivation" at all! My sister had heard somewhere that keeping a depressed person up for just 24 hours could re-set their body clock so they would begin sleeping at night and being able to be awake and functional during the day.
Depriving yourself of sleep like that isnt going to make depression go away. If anything it will make it worse. The one day sleep deprivation thing has been discounted as a method to fight depression.The best way to fight depression is to take drugs, exercise a lot, sleep normaly, avoid booze.
Old School
Posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 23:03:03
In reply to Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression?, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 19:02:56
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020307/msgs/97735.html
http://www.today.uci.edu/releases/99releases/095ap99.html
http://www.amineptine.com/sleepdep.html
Posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 23:05:30
In reply to Re: Heard of staying awake? » Janelle, posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 23:03:03
Should have been this:
Posted by IsoM on March 13, 2002, at 23:05:38
In reply to Re: Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression?, posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 20:20:30
Mark, I'd so love to do this but I just can't make it that long without sleep. My clock could you resetting but even taking adrafinil, I still need so much sleep, narcolepsy aside.
Last night is an example. I went to bed about midnight as I was pretty tired, but I slept till noon. I don't WANT to sleep that long, but if I try to get by on only 8 hours, my brain starts scrambling.
I have the feeling that even if I were to stay awake 24 hours, I'd end up sleeping 18 or more hours on rebound.
Posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 23:16:09
In reply to Re: Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression? » Mark H., posted by IsoM on March 13, 2002, at 23:05:38
Judy,
I'm exactly the same way -- even "pushing it" by still being up at 9:15 p.m. here now.
However, if I'm stimulated by work and able to push through the midnight to four a.m. period, then I can actually sleep for about five hours and go back to work, then sleep like a log that night. If I went to bed at 2:00 a.m., I'd be completely trashed.
It's kind of exciting to be awake for all the natural rhythms that my body goes through during the night. I have to eat a lot and drink a lot of water. I still have to take my meds on time. I'll frequently consume a half-gallon of cranberry juice and nearly as much water in a single night.
For me, intentional deprivation is very different from not getting enough sleep. I really require 12 hours a night to feel well, yet the occasional intentional deprivation seems to do me good. I really can't speak for anyone else; it just works for me.
On my way to bed now...
Good to hear from you,
Mark H.
Posted by JohnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 23:25:01
In reply to To OLD SCHOOL: » OldSchool, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 21:44:48
Does your sister read psycho-babble?-John
> I think you may have misunderstood my post here - I was referring to staying awake for *only* 24 hours, ONE day, not 4-5 days. I know how important sleep is for your health, etc. I wasn't suggesting "severe sleep deprivation" at all! My sister had heard somewhere that keeping a depressed person up for just 24 hours could re-set their body clock so they would begin sleeping at night and being able to be awake and functional during the day.
Posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 23:51:15
In reply to Re: To OLD SCHOOL: » Janelle, posted by JohnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 23:25:01
Hi,
No, my sister does not read pyscho-babble! I just introduced her to it the other day! Did you ask because you thought maybe she read about sleep deprivation here on pyscho-babble??!??
-Janelle
Posted by JohnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 23:55:26
In reply to Answer to JOHNX2:, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 23:51:15
> Hi,
>
> No, my sister does not read pyscho-babble! I just introduced her to it the other day! Did you ask because you thought maybe she read about sleep deprivation here on pyscho-babble??!??
> -JanelleI thought maybe I had seen a thread on the subject yes.
-John
Posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 23:56:50
In reply to Re: Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression? » IsoM, posted by Mark H. on March 13, 2002, at 23:16:09
Mark,
First, a big THANKS for those links about sleep deprivation and depression - two of them were over my head (too technical for me to understand), but I get the impression that sleep deprivation can help reduce depression altough the effect doesn't last.
I'm curious to know what kind of work you do based on what you said about your schedule and also you mentioned something about auto-archiving posts here -- do you work for/with Dr. Bob?
You said that sometimes you are "stimulated by work and able to push through the midnight to four a.m. period" and then you can sleep for about five hours and go back to work, then sleep like a log that night. Sounds like you may not have *regular* (9-5) work hours if you're able to do this?
Also, why do you drink all that cranberry juice when you do the sleep deprivation - does cranberry juice have some kind of positive effects?
Thanks for any answers and info.
-Janelle
Posted by christophrejmc on March 14, 2002, at 1:25:53
In reply to Re: Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression? » Mark H., posted by IsoM on March 13, 2002, at 23:05:38
Have you ever stayed up an entire night?
A few months ago, I was staying up one night, and then sleeping ~12hrs the next night. My EDS-ish symptoms actually improved from it. I'm not sure how healthy my modified sleep schedule is, but my pdoc thinks I should try it again when I can plan my day around it better.
Do you get tired at night? Is it different from your daytime tiredness? For some reason, I only get tired during the day; I can (and sometimes do) lean against a wall during the day and microsleep, but it takes me hours to fall asleep at night.
Thanks for letting me bug you about sleep stuff again!
-Chris
Posted by Anna Laura on March 14, 2002, at 1:48:33
In reply to Heard of staying awake 24 hours to rid depression?, posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 19:02:56
> I have this reversed day-night thing with my body, meaning that I feel awful during the day, all I want to do is lay down, rest and try to sleep but then at night (especially late at night) I seem to perk up and feel almost *normal*. My sister read somewhere awhile back that if a depressed person stays awake for 24 hours they can re-set their body clock and rid themselves of the depression (which is often worse in the am and lifts in the pm). Has anyone heard of this?? Thanks.
Professor Smeraldi in Milan (northern Italy) has done plenty of research in this field.
He's using this method to speed up antidepressants effect. I've seen him on tv last week: he said his trials have been succesful.
The patient should stay awake 36 hours in order to revert the body clock (cycardian rithm).
Posted by IsoM on March 14, 2002, at 1:49:16
In reply to Re: sleep deprivation » IsoM, posted by christophrejmc on March 14, 2002, at 1:25:53
Hey, c'mon Chris, I'm feeling much better so you're going to have to work harder to bug me. You never answered my past question asking you if it was permissable to burp around you now? :-)
Yeah, I've stayed up all night a number of times. But I do need to be busy with something. I can't just watch TV or talk, not enough stimulation to keep me awake. I did my all-nighters when I was at university a few years ago. One night, I didn't quite make it through the night. I was sitting on my bed doing calculus homework (boy, is there tons of writing out formulas to do in that!), wondered why I was starting to have so much difficulty, & looked at the clock. It was 5:20 AM. I just shoved all my books & papers off the bed & crawled into bed fully clothed. I had to be up by 6:30. One guy in my bio lab asked how I could possibly do it. He said he was only 20 or so, & he sure couldn't.
And yes, my night-time tiredness does feel different than the day-time. The adrafinil is helping a great deal with my day-time sleepiness though now. In the day-time, I will feel overwhelmingly sleepy - seductively so, luring & tempting me to just lie down & drift off - bed is very hard to resist then & I can't keep my eyes open. Very, very sleepy, but not really tired. I have lots of energy if something comes along stimulating. It'll wake me up & I'll feel alert.
As the night wears on, I'll start feeling tired & kind of like I'm in a half-dream state - disembodied feeling sort of. Even with something exciting, I still feel disembodied. My waking state merges into a dream state. Hope this make sense.
Posted by Cruz on March 14, 2002, at 10:05:54
In reply to Re: sleep deprivation » christophrejmc, posted by IsoM on March 14, 2002, at 1:49:16
I've followed the anti-depressant effect of sleep deprivation for over 20 years. The reason I did so was back in about 1980 I discovered that I would snap out of depression by going without sleep for one night. When after I slept again the next night the depression would be back when I awoke. Then I discovered that If I went without sleep for two nights, the depression would not return for 2 weeks. I would then again go without sleep for 2 nights and depression would be relieved for another 2 weeks. Again and again I did this or tried to stay awake for the two nights to get the AD effect for two weeks. This worked for me until 1991 when I was involved with a motorcycle accident, in which I damaged my testicles. They were quit swollen for a number of weeks. Ever since then I have found I do not respond to sleep deprivation. I have concluded that the reason that I don't respond anymore to sleep deprivation is that my Sertoli cells which produce the hormonal protein Inhibin were damaged in the motorcycle accident and now do not produce significant amount of Inhibin. I am convinced that the reason for the AD effect of sleep deprivation is the result of an elevation of Inhibin. Now that my Sertoli cells are impared I can no longer enjoy the AD effect of sleep deprivation and have been trying AD after AD to find something to relieve my depression.
Posted by Mark H. on March 14, 2002, at 10:31:52
In reply to Questions 4 MARK H (hope you return here!) » Mark H., posted by Janelle on March 13, 2002, at 23:56:50
Hi Janelle,
Sorry I didn't answer sooner -- I went to bed.
No particular significance to the cranberry juice that I know of, except that it contains lots of sugar, water, and keeps my urinary system comfortable, while some other beverages can leave me feeling a bit ragged by morning. Whether it's my meds or just my system, making sure I get enough water is an important part of staying awake and keeping my system healthy when I intentionally sleep-deprive. I have to drink LOTS of water with my meds, I find.
I am *extremely* blessed in the support I receive in my life. I have been happily married to the love of my life for the past 18 years (in May), and she has seen me through my worst with a steadiness that is so wonderful I start tearing up even as I write these words. We have no children, which is a good thing for us.
I also work for an organization that has let me come to work at noon, one, even two or three in the afternoon, sometimes for months at a time, without firing me. This year, I have made a commitment to my colleagues to be at work by 10, but they also understand I cannot always make it that early. If I lost this job, I do not know what else I could do. It's in my field, it pays well and has great medical benefits, and my coworkers all treat one another as an extended family.
I don't work with Dr. Bob or have any association with UC; I apologize if my reference to "our" archiving process made it sound like I did. I meant "our" in the "all of us" sense, since we'll see our threads progressively disappear into the archives (but they're still there!).
My field is federal grants management and contracts administration, but I'm used these days primarily as the final editor for proposals and final reviewer of project budgets. However, I've also washed dishes and cars, and I worked in bookstores for 13 years -- and a few other things, as well. To live in this beautiful semi-rural part of northern California, I've had a series of jobs rather than a career -- a more than fair trade-off in my mind.
Pulling all-nighters is a normal part of finalizing grant proposals -- someone has to do it. And since I have the meds to stay awake when I need to, it's probably easier for me than for others. Also, my bipolar II personality is such that I enjoy working straight through on a project until it is completed. I think the longest work day I've had in the last year was about 27 hours.
Thank you for asking,
Mark H.
Posted by Janelle on March 14, 2002, at 17:31:50
In reply to Studied AD effect of sleep Dep for 20 yrs., posted by Cruz on March 14, 2002, at 10:05:54
Thank you very much for your detailed info about sleep deprivation. Something you mentioned at the end I don't quite follow:
You said that sleep dep no longer works for you after you injured your testicles in the motorcycle accident (sorry to hear about that) and you said that "my Sertoli cells which produce the hormonal protein Inhibin were damaged in the motorcycle accident and now do not produce significant amount of Inhibin." Then you said that "I am convinced that the reason for the AD effect of sleep deprivation is the result of an elevation of Inhibin."
What does the Inhibin (produced by the Sertoli cells) do for sleep cycles that apparently is not going on anymore for you?
Also, at one point you said that your SC's don't produce a significant amount of Inhibin then in another sentence you said that you have elevated inhibin - which is it?
Thanks, Janelle
Posted by Cruz on March 14, 2002, at 21:41:07
In reply to Question for CRUZ: » Cruz, posted by Janelle on March 14, 2002, at 17:31:50
In men Sertoli cells produce Inhibin, granulosa cells in women. Mine were damaged in a motorcycle accident. For many years when I used sleep deprivation my Sertoli cells were capable of elevating my level of Inhibin, now they are not.
I have expressed my theory to a number of researchers through the years at NIMH and elsewhere, so far they have ignored me.
This is the end of the thread.
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