![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 103 to 127 of 200. Go back in thread:
Posted by Reneeb on February 9, 2002, at 20:06:51
In reply to Re: Attitude to Women-3 Beer Effect » Reneeb, posted by bob on February 9, 2002, at 19:05:34
> > >
Bob, It wasn't intended for you. I believe the name on the posting was 3 Beer Effect. It's MY opinion that you should think about who you might offend when you make comments like "The b*tch was fat".
Posted by bob on February 9, 2002, at 23:52:51
In reply to Re: Attitude to Women-3 Beer Effect » bob, posted by Reneeb on February 9, 2002, at 20:06:51
> > > >
> Bob, It wasn't intended for you. I believe the name on the posting was 3 Beer Effect. It's MY opinion that you should think about who you might offend when you make comments like "The b*tch was fat".==================================================
I don't think you'll get much arguement about your opinion on that one.
Posted by ethan on February 10, 2002, at 0:05:16
In reply to Re: Some Men's Attitude Towards Women, posted by OldSchool on February 9, 2002, at 15:36:47
Well, I don't know your condition or what you're taking but I hear you cuz I been there done that.
I will not tolerate sexual side effects with these drugs (it isn't a matter of whether I can or not -- I simply WILL not). I've been down the Paxil and Zoloft roads (forget Prozac) and found that for me the loss of sexual function exacerbated my depression GREATLY, while the drug's "benefit" was simply to flatten out my personality and mood. This is called "Turning Into A Zombie."
The loss of sexual function made me more frustrated than I had been, made me isolate because I was ashamed I couldn't "function" anymore, and the damage from those months and years of trying these drugs have taken their toll on my self-esteem. Today the meds I take are not supposed to have sexual side effects, and yet I still have difficulties -- which are no doubt the aftermath of being put through the ringer with drugs that adversely affect sexual function, along with the original and continuing effects of the depression.
I know you're joking about the hooker (maybe not), and it's good to see you're trying to make light of the problem through humor, but the long term psychological damage sexual dysfunction can have on you is NOT GOOD.
Advice that was given me and which I pass along is:
Talk to your doctor about getting OFF the meds you are on that are robbing you of your sex drive OR see whether you can add a med that makes you more spunky (i.e., the side effects of one drug that offsets the side effects of another drug. Serzone was quoted me as one drug that can offset sexual side effects in other drugs, for example...WB is anot supposed to adversely affect sex drive, etc.
Naturally it depends on what is wrong with you, what you have tried before and what does and doesn't work for your condition (we all respond differently to different drugs and as much as the docs know about the meds they are still in the dark about plenty -- hence we are all our own guinea pigs). If sexual side effects are bothering you even a little you have to take that seriously and demand your pdoc look into and discuss with you every other treatment possibility available for your condition.
A lot has to do with diet and exercise, too. Exercise especially. Most of us are sitting on our beee-hinds typing away on this BB when we could be getting a half hour of aerobic exercise (even just fast walking). I know that's a big issue for me, one which definitely also affects my capacity to function sexually. I bet most of us with depression don't exercise nearly enough, and if we did we might be able to take less meds to get enough benefit and deal with less side effects. Just a thought my doc passed along to me.
For men especially to be robbed of their sexual identity (being relegated to the status of eunuch) is perhaps the most discouraging and underrated liability of taking psychotropic medications which adversely affect sex drive. Whether it's right or wrong, many men equate their intrinsic self worth with their ability to "rise" to various sexual occasions (so to speak). That aspect of man isn't going to change. It is, however, up to each of us to work with our doctors to find solutions to our conditions that do not emasculate us.
Sex is one of the easiest things to find in this world if you really want it. There are plenty of people who are willing to have sex for a price, infinitely more who would be willing to do so "recreationally" if approached with respect and honesty. Not isolating and making ourselves available to potential partners is part of the problem also. We can sit on a BB and type away and not be "out there" meeting people. Incidentally, as soon as I finish typing this, I'm outa here to head up to the local watering hole and see if I get lucky. It takes forcing yourself to be social, or else go to a strip club and get a lap dance, or whatever. But don't isolate. Perhaps the worst thing about drugs that rob us of our sexual abilities is that we are even denied the ability to masturbate.
It's our choice whether we take the drugs prescribed for us and when we find the sexual side effects ruining us, our responsibility to take action. Believe me, I know -- I learned the "hard" way (bad pun).
ethan
> > No wonder it seems like men & women can come from different worlds. Women generally equate sex with love, warmth, & a relationship. And many men generally equate it with recreation & release of tension.
>
> LOL Thats basically what sex is from the male point of view. Recreation and a release of tension AKA "getting off." Men like to get off and roll over and fall asleep. Not very romantic, but in reality its how most men are.
>
> >
> > I agree with the women's viewpoint. If you really want good sex, men, you need to form a strong bond. Good sex without love is just an illusion. A great physical feeling at the time, but doesn't last beyond the act.
>
> LOL I could make a reply but Im going to hold off cause I dont want to be blocked. Id also like to say that I havent had a good sex drive in four years and its dropped off even more in the last year. Id love to be able to have "animal lust" feelings again. Ditch the romance stuff...Id just like to feel horny again for a change.
>
> Old School
Posted by bob on February 10, 2002, at 0:31:16
In reply to Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of words), posted by ethan on February 10, 2002, at 0:05:16
Ethan:
I don't know what drugs you've found that have freed you from any sexual dysfunction whatsoever, but I'd contend that you're a rare bird indeed. Most males (and many females) experience sexual dysfunction on the meds and they live with it, because it's hard enough to find something that makes them feel better. I fear it's not as simple as not accepting it. Often people are trying to save their own lives. Usually during these times of crisis, sex takes the back burner. Of course, after the sex problem is solved one day, then there'll be the weight gain issue. That one doesn't exactly do wonders for people's self-esteem either.
Bob
Posted by christophrejmc on February 10, 2002, at 1:03:16
In reply to Re: Some Men's Attitude Towards Women » christophrejmc, posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 16:36:16
> My opinion only but sex without love can leave you feeling empty. Love without sex sounds purely frustrating!
I agree. By love without sex, I sorta meant any intimate contact at all. It wasn't so frustrating, but it led to some feelings of insecurity, inferiority, etc.
...
> It was a 18 yr old kid who somehow thought he'd found his "princess". When I told him he was younger than any of my sons, he freaked, thinking I had led him on!!
Not too old for me, sweety! (20/m/USA/will travel. wanna hook up?! ;) (Have you seen Harold & Maude?)
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 2:07:39
In reply to Re: Some Men's Attitude Towards Women » IsoM, posted by christophrejmc on February 10, 2002, at 1:03:16
Hey, I'm not as old as Maude!
I feel real weird saying this but I'm always being mistaken for someone in my late 30s which is silly. But I guess it pays to stay healthy & active. My idea was that so many people when older have such miserable health & so many physical problems that they can't enjoy life. I didn't ever want to get pathetic like that so I resolved to stay fit & look after myself. It wasn't to 'preserve' my looks but it helps. That & the fact I never was a sun worshipper or smoker, 'cept for 2 years when young.
Thanks for the offer :-) but now that I'm single again, it feels good not to always be answering to someone & doing what they want all the time.
(I know you were only joking - but you put a smile on my face.)
Posted by ethan on February 10, 2002, at 4:15:54
In reply to Re: Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of words) » ethan, posted by bob on February 10, 2002, at 0:31:16
Yeah, I was near suicide when I asked for help in 1992. So don't patronize me with the "some people are trying to save their lives" stuff. Of course they're trying to save their lives -- so am I; you think I'm on medication because I Want To Be???
It's all a big compromise, and one concession I refuse to make anymore is the sexual side effects. When I read people complaining about sexual side effects I encourage them to talk to their doctors about whether their medication can be modified. What's Wrong With THAT?
Since I went on meds back in the early 90s I've been on just about any and everything they can try on me, with sometimes benefits and sometimes not. What you say about all medications producing sexual side effects which adversely reduce sexual function is simply NOT TRUE. Not ALL drugs do this. SSRIs do, but some may do this less than others, and it's better to TRY something else in case it is a more appropriate choice than settle for a life of sexual purgatory.
Exercise and socializing (rather than isolating) also have more to do with saving lives from mental illness than you may be imagining. Without either the medications are simply Not Enough. For those who think their sex lives are "over" (and believe me, on Paxil that's just what happened to me), there are alternatives. But it takes diligence and experimentation.
Wellbutrin does not depress my sex drive. When I was on Serzone with the Wellbutrin my sex drive actually increased. Serzone made me dopey, so I had to stop it. I nearly crashed my car on that stuff. But it might work for someone else. The important thing is to be proactive with the doctor and insist on being given information about every possiblity available rather than just "settle" for whatever the doctor prescribes. I've seen people in group do this, completely unaware of the fact that their are other drugs out there than Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft.
I'm not unsympathetic with anyone who is placing as a lower priority their sexual function over other matters; that's a matter of choice. However the benefits of medication for ME were never good enough compared with the sexual side effects. I know others feel the same. It's a topic that warrants discussion.
So please don't tell me it's hard enough to fiind something that makes you feel better -- I've been there and I know that, and sometimes those drugs make you feel worse because of the side effects. There's nothing worse in treating depresesion to find drugs that work that you can not tolerate -- it's worse still when you are torn over living a life of sexual abstinence (as though you are being punished for getting well).
I never said I was freed of sexual dysfunction. You obviously read into what I wrote, not what I wrote. I still have problems -- but the drugs are likely no longer the main issue. Now my concern over these drugs is whether I can tolerate the other side effects (and that's a whole other story). But I would encourage anyone on SSRIs to talk to their doctor and insist on being given alternatives, IF they are unhappy with their sex lives as a result of the medication.
ethan
> Ethan:
>
> I don't know what drugs you've found that have freed you from any sexual dysfunction whatsoever, but I'd contend that you're a rare bird indeed. Most males (and many females) experience sexual dysfunction on the meds and they live with it, because it's hard enough to find something that makes them feel better. I fear it's not as simple as not accepting it. Often people are trying to save their own lives. Usually during these times of crisis, sex takes the back burner. Of course, after the sex problem is solved one day, then there'll be the weight gain issue. That one doesn't exactly do wonders for people's self-esteem either.
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 9:23:34
In reply to I know, I haven't got laid in 2 years!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 22:42:36
>I know, I haven't gotten laid in 2 years & that b*tch was fat (good thing I was wasted drunk at the time)! Of course I live in Texas where you practically have to marry a girl to have sex with her.
Please don't post anything that might lead others to feel put down or might offend them, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 9:26:53
In reply to Some Men's Attitude Towards Women, posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 14:47:24
> No wonder it seems like men & women can come from different worlds...
Now this is *definitely* something that should be at Psycho-Social-Babble instead of here. :-)
Bob
PS: And any discussion of posting policies should be at Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 9:30:20
In reply to Re: Two years is pathetic 3 beers!!, posted by Geezer on February 9, 2002, at 16:02:18
> Two years is pathetic 3 beers!!
Please don't put others down, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 9:35:56
In reply to Dr.Bob's dating service » bob, posted by Mr. Scott on February 9, 2002, at 18:57:10
> I would like to place you in charge of the new Psychobabble dating service.
Hmm, a personals board? :-)
> You can pair up nutsos with eachother.
I understand you're trying to be funny, and I don't want to over-react here, but please be careful not to put others down, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Bob on February 10, 2002, at 13:53:02
In reply to Re: Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of wo, posted by ethan on February 10, 2002, at 4:15:54
Gee, Ethan.
See below...
> Yeah, I was near suicide when I asked for help in 1992. So don't patronize me with the "some people are trying to save their lives" stuff. Of course they're trying to save their lives -- so am I; you think I'm on medication because I Want To Be???--------------------------------------------------
I never implied that you haven't been through as much hell as any of us here. I don't understand where you got the idea that I thought you were on medication because you wanted to be.
--------------------------------------------------
>
> It's all a big compromise, and one concession I refuse to make anymore is the sexual side effects. When I read people complaining about sexual side effects I encourage them to talk to their doctors about whether their medication can be modified. What's Wrong With THAT?--------------------------------------------------
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but here I defer to my original point, which is that the handful of effective antidepressants that don't have sexual side-effects may not work for a person (e.g. your experience with Serzone), and then they are left with the main line treatments, and suffer from the effects.
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Since I went on meds back in the early 90s I've been on just about any and everything they can try on me, with sometimes benefits and sometimes not. What you say about all medications producing sexual side effects which adversely reduce sexual function is simply NOT TRUE. Not ALL drugs do this. SSRIs do, but some may do this less than others, and it's better to TRY something else in case it is a more appropriate choice than settle for a life of sexual purgatory.--------------------------------------------------
No where in my post did I say ALL meds produce sex side effects. However, SSRIs are notorious for sexual dysfunction. Tricyclics are notorious for sexual dysfunction. MAOIs are not not friendly to sex. But sex isn't the only thing to consider. Someone may find an
AD in one of these groups that they can manage to perform on, and then any one of myriad other problems could surface, necessitating them stopping.--------------------------------------------------
>
> Exercise and socializing (rather than isolating) also have more to do with saving lives from mental illness than you may be imagining. Without either the medications are simply Not Enough. For those who think their sex lives are "over" (and believe me, on Paxil that's just what happened to me), there are alternatives. But it takes diligence and experimentation.--------------------------------------------------
I don't need to take your word for it with Paxil, I tried it also. I don't refute your idea of exercise and socializing, but if depression becomes severe enough, people cannot do this.
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Wellbutrin does not depress my sex drive. When I was on Serzone with the Wellbutrin my sex drive actually increased. Serzone made me dopey, so I had to stop it. I nearly crashed my car on that stuff. But it might work for someone else. The important thing is to be proactive with the doctor and insist on being given information about every possiblity available rather than just "settle" for whatever the doctor prescribes. I've seen people in group do this, completely unaware of the fact that their are other drugs out there than Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft.--------------------------------------------------
How do you know that people are unaware that there are other drugs?
--------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm not unsympathetic with anyone who is placing as a lower priority their sexual function over other matters; that's a matter of choice. However the benefits of medication for ME were never good enough compared with the sexual side effects. I know others feel the same. It's a topic that warrants discussion.--------------------------------------------------
I agree here. I have pretty severe anxiety and depression, and even if I'm helped by a med, I eventually become very, very frustrated with the sexual side effects, as well as weight gain. I fully realize that you are speaking for yourself, and so am I.
--------------------------------------------------
>
> So please don't tell me it's hard enough to fiind something that makes you feel better -- I've been there and I know that, and sometimes those drugs make you feel worse because of the side effects. There's nothing worse in treating depresesion to find drugs that work that you can not tolerate -- it's worse still when you are torn over living a life of sexual abstinence (as though you are being punished for getting well).--------------------------------------------------
I still contend that it is hard enough to find something that works. That doesn't go for all people, but everybody is different. I never said you hadn't "been there". I know what you mean about being "punished". I have felt that about all the intolerabilities of these meds.
--------------------------------------------------
> I never said I was freed of sexual dysfunction. You obviously read into what I wrote, not what I wrote. I still have problems -- but the drugs are likely no longer the main issue. Now my concern over these drugs is whether I can tolerate the other side effects (and that's a whole other story). But I would encourage anyone on SSRIs to talk to their doctor and insist on being given alternatives, IF they are unhappy with their sex lives as a result of the medication.
--------------------------------------------------
I think this was your statement: "I will not tolerate sexual side effects with these drugs (it isn't a matter of whether I can or not -- I simply will not)." I don't think it is such a great leap in logic to assume from that statement that you refuse to take any drugs that give you sexual side effects. Ergo, you must be free of drug side-effects that affect sexual function. Obviously my assumption has proved wrong, but I feel your first post didn't make that very clear. You mention later on that you are still experiencing some sexual dysfuntion, but you don't attribute this to current side effects, so my assumption would still be understandable. I totally agree with you (and I said something to this effect in my first post) that there are many other tolerability issues to these drugs besides the sex issue. That's why I'm contending that there are other issues to consider. The drugs that didn't affect my sexual funtion, also didn't adequately treat my problems and/or I could not tolerate them for other reasons.
--------------------------------------------------
I've tried Welbutrin. I have anxiety and OCD problems and this drug was very inappropriate for them. It didn't have much sexual dysfunction. I tried Serzone, but it knocked me flat on my ass, so I couldn't tell you what the sex side effects were. I tried Remeron, and never got passed the sedation, not to mention the weight gain. It did not affect sex. Welbutrin and Remeron did help somewhat with depression, but that's only part of my problem.
You never mentioned what cocktail you finally have arrived at that gives you minimal dysfuntion. I assume from your wording that you are no longer on Welbutrin or Serzone (and I do allow for the possiblity that this assumption is wrong).
Bob
>
Posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 19:53:40
In reply to Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of words), posted by ethan on February 10, 2002, at 0:05:16
> Well, I don't know your condition or what you're taking but I hear you cuz I been there done that.
>
> I will not tolerate sexual side effects with these drugs (it isn't a matter of whether I can or not -- I simply WILL not). I've been down the Paxil and Zoloft roads (forget Prozac) and found that for me the loss of sexual function exacerbated my depression GREATLY, while the drug's "benefit" was simply to flatten out my personality and mood. This is called "Turning Into A Zombie."
You must not have real clinical depression then. Id gladly trade my left nut for a drug that blasted me out of clinical depression. I could care less if it caused delayed ejaculation in me, just so long as it actually worked good at achieving remission.I only care about REAL drug side effects like EPS, TD, neuroleptic induced parkinsons, MAOI hypertensive crises, etc. etc. etc. The typical SSRI side effects like weight gain, headaches, nausea, sexual dysfunction etc. seem like wussy trivial side effects to me after what Ive been thru.
>
> The loss of sexual function made me more frustrated than I had been, made me isolate because I was ashamed I couldn't "function" anymore, and the damage from those months and years of trying these drugs have taken their toll on my self-esteem.I dont think you had real depression to begin with...you had what I call "Woody Allen" depression. Self esteem problems, dysthymia, situational depression, etc.
>Today the meds I take are not supposed to have sexual side effects, and yet I still have difficulties -- which are no doubt the aftermath of being put through the ringer with drugs that adversely affect sexual function, along with the original and continuing effects of the depression.
>Again...to someone who has had the real deal...severe clinical depression these sorts of side effects mean diddly.
> I know you're joking about the hooker (maybe not), and it's good to see you're trying to make light of the problem through humor, but the long term psychological damage sexual dysfunction can have on you is NOT GOOD.
Neither is having major depression longterm...does weird and bad things to your body and health.
>
> Advice that was given me and which I pass along is:
>
> Talk to your doctor about getting OFF the meds you are on that are robbing you of your sex drive OR see whether you can add a med that makes you more spunky (i.e., the side effects of one drug that offsets the side effects of another drug. Serzone was quoted me as one drug that can offset sexual side effects in other drugs, for example...WB is anot supposed to adversely affect sex drive, etc.I agree, those with milder depressions would probably be better off trying to fix it without drugs.
>
> Naturally it depends on what is wrong with you, what you have tried before and what does and doesn't work for your condition (we all respond differently to different drugs and as much as the docs know about the meds they are still in the dark about plenty -- hence we are all our own guinea pigs). If sexual side effects are bothering you even a little you have to take that seriously and demand your pdoc look into and discuss with you every other treatment possibility available for your condition.
>
> A lot has to do with diet and exercise, too. Exercise especially. Most of us are sitting on our beee-hinds typing away on this BB when we could be getting a half hour of aerobic exercise (even just fast walking). I know that's a big issue for me, one which definitely also affects my capacity to function sexually. I bet most of us with depression don't exercise nearly enough, and if we did we might be able to take less meds to get enough benefit and deal with less side effects. Just a thought my doc passed along to me.Exercise can really help mild depression probs.
>
> For men especially to be robbed of their sexual identity (being relegated to the status of eunuch) is perhaps the most discouraging and underrated liability of taking psychotropic medications which adversely affect sex drive. Whether it's right or wrong, many men equate their intrinsic self worth with their ability to "rise" to various sexual occasions (so to speak). That aspect of man isn't going to change. It is, however, up to each of us to work with our doctors to find solutions to our conditions that do not emasculate us.
>
> Sex is one of the easiest things to find in this world if you really want it. There are plenty of people who are willing to have sex for a price, infinitely more who would be willing to do so "recreationally" if approached with respect and honesty. Not isolating and making ourselves available to potential partners is part of the problem also. We can sit on a BB and type away and not be "out there" meeting people. Incidentally, as soon as I finish typing this, I'm outa here to head up to the local watering hole and see if I get lucky. It takes forcing yourself to be social, or else go to a strip club and get a lap dance, or whatever. But don't isolate. Perhaps the worst thing about drugs that rob us of our sexual abilities is that we are even denied the ability to masturbate.>
> It's our choice whether we take the drugs prescribed for us and when we find the sexual side effects ruining us, our responsibility to take action. Believe me, I know -- I learned the "hard" way (bad pun).
>
> ethanAll the women I meet are super horny and Im not. Its the depression, not the drugs. The drugs dont work good in me, so the best I ever get is about 30%. I used to have a sex drive, it kind of came back some on Wellbutrin. Remeron was good for sex too. It got real strong again for a few days on Amantadine here recently. But overall my sex drive is gone. Women dont want to be involved with a depressed guy with no sex drive. Honestly, I think women are the real sex fiends, not men. LOL I wish I could keep up with them but Im just worn out physically and mentally. Im 33 and feel like 83.
Old School
Posted by Bob on February 10, 2002, at 20:44:19
In reply to Re: no sex drive anymore, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 19:53:40
Women dont want to be involved with a depressed guy with no sex drive. Honestly, I think women are the real sex fiends, not men. LOL I wish I could keep up with them but Im just worn out physically and mentally. Im 33 and feel like 83.--------------------------------------------------
Man, I second that! I'm 33 going on 34, and I feel like I'm 83 going on 84! It makes me sad to see people who are 20, 30, even 40 or more years older than me living full lives. It hurts bad. Sometimes it absolutely astounds me what my life degenerated into.
Posted by spike4848 on February 10, 2002, at 20:59:00
In reply to Re: no sex drive anymore, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 19:53:40
Yeah .... I am shocked when I talk to my pdoc. He will say things like "Imipramine is a good drug but many of my patients stop it because of dry mouth and constipation." I can't believe people will stop a med because of DRY MOUTH! That is absured! And yes, these patient must not be experiencing true depression. I wonder if they have every struggled getting out of bed, not have enough energy to eat/shower, been housebound for months .... probably not.
Spike
Posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 22:55:48
In reply to Real Depression » OldSchool, posted by spike4848 on February 10, 2002, at 20:59:00
> Yeah .... I am shocked when I talk to my pdoc. He will say things like "Imipramine is a good drug but many of my patients stop it because of dry mouth and constipation." I can't believe people will stop a med because of DRY MOUTH! That is absured! And yes, these patient must not be experiencing true depression. I wonder if they have every struggled getting out of bed, not have enough energy to eat/shower, been housebound for months .... probably not.
>
> Spike
Yeah...I am the same way I am absolutely amazed at this stuff I hear from people about antidepressants. I can understand if the ADs are making you manic or hypomanic or whatever. Thats a serious side effect of antidepressants. However this stuff about weight gain, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, etc. while troubling and a pain in the ass sometimes, its not a big deal compared to real deal SEVERE clinical depression!!!Im not coming down on anybody, but I do chuckle sometimes when I read that kind of stuff. I instantly think to myself "this person never had real depression before." Thats always what pops into my mind. Id gladly trade ten or even twenty pounds weight gain and some delayed ejaculation and some dry mouth for a good drug that got me to full remission and kept me there longterm. GLADLY.
Old School
Posted by kiddo on February 10, 2002, at 23:12:19
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 22:55:48
Excuse me for interrupting here....
How can you say that someone has never had real depression before? People's experiences are different and what may seem like nothing to one person may be completely debilitating to another...
> Yeah...I am the same way I am absolutely amazed at this stuff I hear from people about antidepressants. I can understand if the ADs are making you manic or hypomanic or whatever. Thats a serious side effect of antidepressants. However this stuff about weight gain, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, etc. while troubling and a pain in the ass sometimes, its not a big deal compared to real deal SEVERE clinical depression!!!
>
> Im not coming down on anybody, but I do chuckle sometimes when I read that kind of stuff. I instantly think to myself "this person never had real depression before." Thats always what pops into my mind. Id gladly trade ten or even twenty pounds weight gain and some delayed ejaculation and some dry mouth for a good drug that got me to full remission and kept me there longterm. GLADLY.
>
> Old School
Posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by kiddo on February 10, 2002, at 23:12:19
> Excuse me for interrupting here....
>
> How can you say that someone has never had real depression before? People's experiences are different and what may seem like nothing to one person may be completely debilitating to another...
>
Its easy to say that. Because its the truth. Real depression is not just this sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts stuff, sure thats a big part of it...the emotional part of it. But REAL depression...clinical depression...is where you have the above plus your body starts falling apart on you. Severe depression does weird things to your body. Severe depression totally screws up your sleep...and Im not talking oversleeping here. Try severe, total insomnia. Severe depression makes you lose thirty pounds without trying and makes you totally lose your appetite. Like you eat a third of your normal meal and you are full. Real depression destroys your cognition and makes you demented where you cant think clearly or remember anything. Real depression is where you totally lose your sex drive and cant get it up anymore. Real depression is where when you have an orgasm...no semen comes out you have a dry ejaculation and the orgasm feels shitty like it wansnt even a real orgasm.Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
Youd be amazed at what cutting out booze totally will do for dysthymia.
Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
Old School
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2002, at 0:05:43
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by kiddo on February 10, 2002, at 23:12:19
Thanks for saying that, kiddo. It needed to be said. It doesn't seem to me to be all that useful to get into comparisons of depression. If someone is suffering and perhaps having suicidal thoughts, does it really matter if vegetative symptoms of depression are present?
I'm not depressed right now, but there are times that just the suggestion that my suffering was "only" mild depression would be have been extremely disturbing to me. And for the record, I was diagnosed at the time with major depressive disorder, recurrent, moderate.> Excuse me for interrupting here....
>
> How can you say that someone has never had real depression before? People's experiences are different and what may seem like nothing to one person may be completely debilitating to another...
>
>
> > Yeah...I am the same way I am absolutely amazed at this stuff I hear from people about antidepressants. I can understand if the ADs are making you manic or hypomanic or whatever. Thats a serious side effect of antidepressants. However this stuff about weight gain, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, etc. while troubling and a pain in the ass sometimes, its not a big deal compared to real deal SEVERE clinical depression!!!
> >
> > Im not coming down on anybody, but I do chuckle sometimes when I read that kind of stuff. I instantly think to myself "this person never had real depression before." Thats always what pops into my mind. Id gladly trade ten or even twenty pounds weight gain and some delayed ejaculation and some dry mouth for a good drug that got me to full remission and kept me there longterm. GLADLY.
> >
> > Old School
Posted by jane d on February 11, 2002, at 0:15:51
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
Real depression is...
Being totally self centered and unable to care about anybody elses pain.
Being hostile to the entire world. Finding someone else to blame for everything.
Posted by kiddo on February 11, 2002, at 0:37:37
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
>Its easy to say that. Because its the truth. Real depression is not just this sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts stuff, sure thats a big part of it...the emotional part of it. But REAL depression...clinical depression...is where you have the above plus your body starts falling apart on you. Severe depression does weird things to your body. Severe depression totally screws up your sleep...and Im not talking oversleeping here. Try severe, total insomnia. Severe depression makes you lose thirty pounds without trying and makes you totally lose your appetite. Like you eat a third of your normal meal and you are full. Real depression destroys your cognition and makes you demented where you cant think clearly or remember anything. Real depression is where you totally lose your sex drive and cant get it up anymore. Real depression is where when you have an orgasm...no semen comes out you have a dry ejaculation and the orgasm feels shitty like it wansnt even a real orgasm.
>
I disagree. Real depression IS the sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts “stuff” you are talking about. People respond to depression in different ways…because you have insomnia doesn’t mean that if someone sleeps 22 out of 24 hours doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically depressed. Severe depression can also make you GAIN thirty pound without trying and not increasing your appetite. Real depression affects different people in different ways…as for the dry ejaculation, I can’t comment, as I’m a woman. However, I don’t understand if REAL depression is not being able to get it up, how could you even have a dry ejaculation…but again, I’m “only” a woman…depression regardless of how ‘severe’ is still REAL DEPRESSION!!!!! Suicidal thoughts with or without other symptoms of clinical depression are a very serious matter, and someone that’s suffering from fake depression doesn’t have suicidal thoughts.
>
> Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
>Depression is depression and I’m not going to argue the matter of physical vs. mental illness. Why should it be formally reclassified as a Neurological disease? What if you sleep ‘too good’? Is your physical health going to deteriorate as well? Your symptoms are not the only symptoms of depression. There isn’t only “one” way to be depressed….Different people process things differently, the same disorder/disease can have different effects on different people. If that weren’t the case then we’d only need one med for each disorder, right?
> Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
>Thanks for the apology, you are graphic…I realize you are trying to point out the differences between the different FORMS of depression, and I agree there are differences…BUT they are all REAL DEPRESSION!
> A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
>I disagree again…ppl become REALLY depressed (vs. unreal) by weight gain, lack of sexual desire/performance, and other side effects of medication. True, being able to sleep is a relief, as well as WAKING UP can be. To you drug effects seem trivial, however, that isn’t the situation with everyone.
> Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
>
I’m sorry you put it that way too. It’s really sad because you know; people with “life stress” kill themselves everyday. Why do you think these people party so much, and drink too much alcohol? Why do you think they aren’t really depressed in the first place?> Youd be amazed at what cutting out booze totally will do for dysthymia.
What about the ones with Dysthymia that DON’T drink?>
> Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
>
Your attitude regarding Psychiatry really concerns me. I’m amazed at your hatred toward the mental health field. What exactly do you consider ‘real mental illness’? I don’t know what a psychiatrist did to you to warrant such venom toward all psychiatrists, but it sure seems that way. I don’t have much patience either, and I’ve been through more than my share of bad things in life.Have your meds cured you? Are you now functioning, sleeping, eating normally, and being a normal person in society? I’m not trying to be facetious, sarcastic and/or whatnot, I’m honestly curious as to how your meds have helped.
Kiddo
> Old School
Posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
In reply to Re: Real Depression » OldSchool, posted by kiddo on February 11, 2002, at 0:37:37
>
>
>
> I disagree. Real depression IS the sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts “stuff” you are talking about. People respond to depression in different ways…because you have insomnia doesn’t mean that if someone sleeps 22 out of 24 hours doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically depressed. Severe depression can also make you GAIN thirty pound without trying and not increasing your appetite. Real depression affects different people in different ways…as for the dry ejaculation, I can’t comment, as I’m a woman. However, I don’t understand if REAL depression is not being able to get it up, how could you even have a dry ejaculation…but again, I’m “only” a woman…depression regardless of how ‘severe’ is still REAL DEPRESSION!!!!! Suicidal thoughts with or without other symptoms of clinical depression are a very serious matter, and someone that’s suffering from fake depression doesn’t have suicidal thoughts.
Look, I am just trying to make you aware that there are varying degrees of severity of mental illness. Have you ever been to a mental hospital and been to the "lockup" ward? Where the psychotic people are? Where the doctors just keep you drugged up for days. Are you going to honestly tell me that "dythymia" is as severe or as serious as that?There are varying degrees of severity when it comes to mood disorders. For example, classic manic depression (bipolar disorder) is WAY more serious than dysthymia. And the melancholia subtype of major depression (severe sleeping, eating, sex drive and cognition probs) is way more severe than dysthymia.
A person with dysthymia can usually still generally function in the world, still work some type of job, etc. It is irritating to read about people who stop modern class antidepressants for trivial reasons (sexual dysfunction, weight gain, dry mouth) when your depressed as dirt, cant sleep good and losing weight like crazy and cant work cause you cant think clearly.
>
>
> >
> > Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
> >
>
> Depression is depression and I’m not going to argue the matter of physical vs. mental illness. Why should it be formally reclassified as a Neurological disease?Because all severe forms of mental illness are brain based illnesses. Severe mental illness causes changes in the brain. Things would be much better for all of us if society just started thinking of these problems as neuro diseases and not as "emotional" problems. Trust me on this, all of us "mentally ill" people would be taken much more seriously if our society perceived our problems as physically based, neuro diseases of the brain.
All behavior, both normal and abnormal, is mediated thru neuronal function ie, the brain.
> What if you sleep ‘too good’? Is your physical health going to deteriorate as well? Your symptoms are not the only symptoms of depression. There isn’t only “one” way to be depressed….Different people process things differently, the same disorder/disease can have different effects on different people. If that weren’t the case then we’d only need one med for each disorder, right?
>
>
> > Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
> >
>
>
>
> Thanks for the apology, you are graphic…I realize you are trying to point out the differences between the different FORMS of depression, and I agree there are differences…BUT they are all REAL DEPRESSION!Sure its all real depression, but there are degrees of severity. Some cause disability more than others. Dysthymia or situational depression rarely causes longterm disability.
>
>
>
> > A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
> >
>
>
>
> I disagree again…ppl become REALLY depressed (vs. unreal) by weight gain, lack of sexual desire/performance, and other side effects of medication.LOL...again its obvious you never had real depression before.
>True, being able to sleep is a relief, as well as WAKING UP can be. To you drug effects seem trivial, however, that isn’t the situation with everyone.
Sure its not the situation with everyone. For people who have milder forms of depression, these folks havent yet experienced the severe breakdown in basic physiological bodily functions that severe depression causes. What psychiatry classifies as "somatic" complaints. For someone who hasnt yet experienced the real thing, SSRI side effects are bothersome.
All I have to say about that is wait til you get nailed by the big one. Real melancholic SEVERE major depression. Or psychotic depression. Or manic depression. LOL hehehe Trust me, you wont care about "SSRI side effects" anymore. You will thank God just for the fact you have these drugs so you can sleep and not end up going crazy.
>
>
>
> > Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
> >
>
>
> I’m sorry you put it that way too. It’s really sad because you know; people with “life stress” kill themselves everyday. Why do you think these people party so much, and drink too much alcohol? Why do you think they aren’t really depressed in the first place?A person with true depression...clinical depression wouldnt even be partying to begin with. Plenty of people with dysthymia or mild depression self medicate with booze and recreational drugs however.
I found after I became clinically depressed my response to booze totally changed. I found out that I didnt get a beer buzz anymore and booze didnt make me feel loose and happy anymore. Booze just made me sadder, more depressed, cry more and made my insomnia MUCH worse.
Many cases of "mild depression" and dysthymia are caused by or exacerbated by alcohol. And too often the person doesnt even realize its the booze causing their dysthymia. Cut out booze totally and see how your mood lifts if you have dysthymia.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
> >
>
>
> Your attitude regarding Psychiatry really concerns me. I’m amazed at your hatred toward the mental health field. What exactly do you consider ‘real mental illness’?Here is my personal definition of "real mental illness."
1) schizophrenia and all psychotic disorders
2) classic manic depression AKA bipolar type 1
3) major depression, especially the melancholia or psychotic depression subtypes
4) all of the anxiety disorders>I don’t know what a psychiatrist did to you to warrant such venom toward all psychiatrists, but it sure seems that way. I don’t have much patience either, and I’ve been through more than my share of bad things in life.
>
> Have your meds cured you? Are you now functioning, sleeping, eating normally, and being a normal person in society?Hell no. Im hanging out on psychobabble arent I? What do you think people who hang out here are like? Many of them are treatment resistant.
>I’m not trying to be facetious, sarcastic and/or whatnot, I’m honestly curious as to how your meds have helped.
As Ive already told you several times, meds dont work for me very good. Somewhat, enough to keep me afloat and alive but thats all. Im hardly in remission which is what Id like. Like I said, Id gladly trade some "SSRI side effects" for a drug that sent me into remission and kept me there. Antidepressant side effects are rather trivial to me.
Old School
>
>
> Kiddo
>
>
> > Old School
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2002, at 11:27:54
In reply to Re: no sex drive anymore, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 19:53:40
> You must not have real clinical depression then.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them or their experiences. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration (or emailed to me directly).
Posted by pedr on February 11, 2002, at 12:42:07
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
Just my 2d's worth...
At certain stages of my depression I've been suicidal for weeks, had panic-level fear and terror for days, sat and stared at the wall for days, cycled around looking for people to crash into and sometimes just felt so low just being alive was undescribably sickening.At the moment I'm on wellbutrin and reboxetine and whilst 50% of my time is bloody horrible, I manage to get to work most of the time and to go out once every couple of weeks or so. From the drugs I get nausea, headaches and severe constipation every day. I agree with OldSchool that these forms of side-effects are *NOTHING* compared to catatonic depression or terror like you've never experienced before.
*HOWEVER*, before I got depression I simply did not know that it was possible to feel that bad. I thought feeling hurt after falling out with a mate was "really bad" - that was the only point of reference I had. So, I think that when people complain of side-effects and dysthymia, that does not make them weak or whingers, they simply do not know any worse. To them, it is the worst they've felt and thus is bloody disturbing. This is perfectly understandable really I think, even though I often think "I'd bite my own arm off to have just sexual dysfunction to worry about".
Errr, that's about it. Cheers all and best wishes.
pete.
Posted by spike4848 on February 11, 2002, at 18:47:42
In reply to Re: blocked for week » OldSchool, posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2002, at 11:27:54
Sorry for my prior statement, I was just thinking back to an instance where I was trying pamelor .... the constipation, dry mouth and fatigue were not that bad. My pdoc told me that several of his patients stopped it because of dry mouth. So I thought either my side effects were mild or the other patient's depression was mild. I was JEALOUS of the other patient and which I could just discard a med because of dry mouth.
But everyone's depression is real .... I mean would who fake it .... there is no glamour or gain in depression.
Sorry
Spike
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