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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Else on October 24, 2001, at 18:11:55
Over the past few weeks I have been feeling intensely bad. I thought it was a particularly long bout of PMS but PMS is supposed to end once you get your period, this didn't. I usually start feeling crappy around this time of year but I have been told that most people experience some mood fluctuactions as winter approaches. If this is the case then, what differentiates SAD from a "normal" mood drop in october. I have been having this problem since high school : Around october, I can't do my school work, my mind gets blurry, I cry for no reason, I have trouble both falling asleep and getting up in the morning.
I have problems with mood-instability in general but this is off-the-scale in terms of duration and intensity of bad mood compared to what I usually have to deal with. Can anybody relate to this? Thank you.
Posted by Mitch on October 25, 2001, at 0:40:33
In reply to SAD vs normal automn blues, posted by Else on October 24, 2001, at 18:11:55
> Over the past few weeks I have been feeling intensely bad. I thought it was a particularly long bout of PMS but PMS is supposed to end once you get your period, this didn't. I usually start feeling crappy around this time of year but I have been told that most people experience some mood fluctuactions as winter approaches. If this is the case then, what differentiates SAD from a "normal" mood drop in october. I have been having this problem since high school : Around october, I can't do my school work, my mind gets blurry, I cry for no reason, I have trouble both falling asleep and getting up in the morning.
> I have problems with mood-instability in general but this is off-the-scale in terms of duration and intensity of bad mood compared to what I usually have to deal with. Can anybody relate to this? Thank you.Else,
How far up north are you-latitude wise-or rather state or country-wise? I have seasonal wintertime depressions that normally start from last few days of Oct. thru mid-November and do not begin to resolve until late January and don't fully remit until late March. I am in Missouri.
Mitch
Posted by Noa on October 25, 2001, at 7:17:02
In reply to Re: SAD vs normal automn blues » Else, posted by Mitch on October 25, 2001, at 0:40:33
There probably is no distinct line where "normal" autumn blues end and SAD begins. I think the most important thing is the intensity of your symptoms, how much it interferes with your living, etc. You describe it as difficult. You might want to try out light therapy (talk to your pdoc first). Some of the light box companies have money-back guarantees--ie, use it for a month and if it doesn't help you, you can return it. Info on SAD, etc. at "tips" (link at top of babble page).
I also have a SAD component to my depression --this time of year I get sluggish, sleepy, have difficulty getting up in the morning. I have been using a light box for about a month and it is helping.
Posted by houstongirl on October 25, 2001, at 18:05:56
In reply to Re: SAD vs normal automn blues, posted by Noa on October 25, 2001, at 7:17:02
How long do you use your light box for each day? What time of day? First thing in the morning? And this may be a stupid question, do your eyes have to open for it to do any good? I have mine set on a timer to go on about 30 minutes before my 3 alarm clocks go off.
> I have been using a light box for about a month and it is helping.
Posted by Noa on October 26, 2001, at 18:23:40
In reply to Re: SAD - light therapy, posted by houstongirl on October 25, 2001, at 18:05:56
> How long do you use your light box for each day?
I've been using it about 30-45 min.
>What time of day? First thing in the morning?
Yep, although I sometimes (ver infrequently)supplement with a bit more in the afternoon if I'm home.
>do your eyes have to open for it to do any good?
I don't know. Good question.
>I have mine set on a timer to go on about 30 minutes before my 3 alarm clocks go off.
Does that help you wake up?
Posted by paxvox on October 27, 2001, at 20:46:46
In reply to SAD vs normal automn blues, posted by Else on October 24, 2001, at 18:11:55
Indeed, without reading the other posts, because I know what they are going to say about light therapy, I will profer my tid-bit.
I think you are describing classic SAD. My Pdoc says that those (like myself)who are sensitive to the hours of sunlight actually may begin this phasing as early as late July (which was news to me, but DID explain the horrible few weeks I had then!).
From my understanding of SAD, knowing that THAT is what is affecting your mood is winning half the battle, the other finding succesfull treatment. I can't say I have ever found the latter, as my Pdoc just wanted me to increase my Wellbutin to 400mg a day. I am pretty well set at 350mg, anything higher has untoward effects.
What meds are you currently taking, and have you discused this with your Pdoc? Although I have no experience with light therapy, the data suggests its efficacy. Look into it, don't just wish it away. SAD can be treated, if your Pdoc is of higher quality than what I have available in the small town I live in. Good luck, keep us posted.
PAX
Posted by houstongirl on October 29, 2001, at 13:28:03
In reply to Re: SAD vs normal automn blues » Else, posted by paxvox on October 27, 2001, at 20:46:46
I have been diagnosed with SAD, in addition to BPII w/atypical depression. The light does seem to help me wake up in the mornings. Switching the clocks back 1 hour made a CONSIDERABLE difference this morning. It was fully light out when I had to get up and it was MUCH easier to get up. I'm taking 100mg Celexa, 1500mg Depakote and 200mg Provigil to combat the drowsiness from the first two. I live in Houston, near the Texas Medical Center and am EXTREMELY fortunate to have access to some of the best doctors in the world.
Cristy
> Indeed, without reading the other posts, because I know what they are going to say about light therapy, I will profer my tid-bit.
>
> I think you are describing classic SAD. My Pdoc says that those (like myself)who are sensitive to the hours of sunlight actually may begin this phasing as early as late July (which was news to me, but DID explain the horrible few weeks I had then!).
>
> From my understanding of SAD, knowing that THAT is what is affecting your mood is winning half the battle, the other finding succesfull treatment. I can't say I have ever found the latter, as my Pdoc just wanted me to increase my Wellbutin to 400mg a day. I am pretty well set at 350mg, anything higher has untoward effects.
>
> What meds are you currently taking, and have you discused this with your Pdoc? Although I have no experience with light therapy, the data suggests its efficacy. Look into it, don't just wish it away. SAD can be treated, if your Pdoc is of higher quality than what I have available in the small town I live in. Good luck, keep us posted.
>
> PAX
Posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 22:34:51
In reply to Re: SAD vs normal automn blues, posted by houstongirl on October 29, 2001, at 13:28:03
I love autumn, not just for the turning leaves, but because you can pull out your sweaters and bundle yourself up. I also like rainy days and storms in particular. Somebody told me I like bad weather because it drives everyone else indoors, so I don't feel strange about being inside myself because everyone else is too. Also I like bad weather because I don't want anyone else to be outside enjoying themselves. Somebody told me all this so I guess I don't have SAD, I'm just evil.
Sigh....
Gracie
Posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:28:32
In reply to So what the hell do I have?, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 22:34:51
>
> I love autumn, not just for the turning leaves, but because you can pull out your sweaters and bundle yourself up. I also like rainy days and storms in particular. Somebody told me I like bad weather because it drives everyone else indoors, so I don't feel strange about being inside myself because everyone else is too. Also I like bad weather because I don't want anyone else to be outside enjoying themselves. Somebody told me all this so I guess I don't have SAD, I'm just evil.
> Sigh....
> GracieI`m with you-like rainy days-hate the sun. Guess I`m evil too. I read a book by judgmental shrink M. Scott Peck a few years ago in which he decided the reason he was unable to cure a patient was because she was "evil" and one of the traits that made him decide this was her preference for gray days. What a jerk!
Posted by llorona on October 31, 2001, at 16:29:14
In reply to Re: So what the hell do I have?, posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:28:32
> > I'm evil too....
or maybe we are all just depressed!
ha ha
> > I love autumn, not just for the turning leaves, but because you can pull out your sweaters and bundle yourself up. I also like rainy days and storms in particular. Somebody told me I like bad weather because it drives everyone else indoors, so I don't feel strange about being inside myself because everyone else is too. Also I like bad weather because I don't want anyone else to be outside enjoying themselves. Somebody told me all this so I guess I don't have SAD, I'm just evil.
> > Sigh....
> > Gracie
>
> I`m with you-like rainy days-hate the sun. Guess I`m evil too. I read a book by judgmental shrink M. Scott Peck a few years ago in which he decided the reason he was unable to cure a patient was because she was "evil" and one of the traits that made him decide this was her preference for gray days. What a jerk!
Posted by Noa on November 1, 2001, at 7:49:51
In reply to Re: So what the hell do I have?, posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:28:32
Peck said THAT????
Posted by wendy b. on November 1, 2001, at 14:11:16
In reply to Re: SAD vs normal automn blues » Else, posted by paxvox on October 27, 2001, at 20:46:46
> From my understanding of SAD, knowing that THAT is what is affecting your mood is winning half the battle, the other finding succesfull treatment. I can't say I have ever found the latter, as my Pdoc just wanted me to increase my Wellbutin to 400mg a day. I am pretty well set at 350mg, anything higher has untoward effects.
Wow, 400 mg of Wellbutrin, Pax. That sounds like a lot. I'm on 300 now, plus a ton of Neurontin. Isn't the doc afraid of seizure-type side effects? Or maybe the chance of having one is so small... What do you know about this? I love the Wellbutrin, keeps me happy, or happier than I would be in autumn. I think I have seasonal depression, too, but how much this year's was attributable to the Sept. 11 attacks is very hard to tell.Best,
Wendy
Posted by Jane D on November 2, 2001, at 1:06:41
In reply to So what the hell do I have?, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 22:34:51
My theories.
1. Social anxiety? Everyone else stays home in bad weather so I can have the world to myself.
2. My eyes have atrophied from never leaving the house sort of like the blind fish in caves.
3. Perversity. Other people like sun so I wont.
4. My personal favorite. Good taste. Autumn and rainy days are simply aesthetically superior.Seriously, I wonder if there could be some physical basis. There's an aside about perception and drugs in the thread about vitreous floaters below.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011025/msgs/82817.html
I've noticed that on medication my aversion to sunny summer days is reduced although I still think grey and stormy is better.Jane
>
> I love autumn, not just for the turning leaves, but because you can pull out your sweaters and bundle yourself up. I also like rainy days and storms in particular. Somebody told me I like bad weather because it drives everyone else indoors, so I don't feel strange about being inside myself because everyone else is too. Also I like bad weather because I don't want anyone else to be outside enjoying themselves. Somebody told me all this so I guess I don't have SAD, I'm just evil.
> Sigh....
> Gracie
Posted by paxvox on November 2, 2001, at 16:10:47
In reply to Re: SAD, autumn blues, Wellbutrin » paxvox, posted by wendy b. on November 1, 2001, at 14:11:16
I'll tell you, Wendy, 150 SR twice a day is about my upper limit, and I usually tolerate meds well. I had to back off at 400mg because of chest pain and headache. Interestingly, I was talking with my Internist the other day (as he was about to check me for mitral valve problems)and HE is taking 150SR three times a day. He used to take Amphetamines for ADD, but had to switch to increased WB. I don't know if I could handle "speed" right now! BUTTTTTT...... I can do fairly well with the 300 mg. The seizure risk is a POSSIBILITY, but I read a paper that was written by a doc who worked with WB when it was first being developed in the late 70's, and he said the seizure theshold is higher than the "safe" high end dosing, but a very realistic possibility when one went much higher.
PAX
Posted by Mair on November 3, 2001, at 11:12:26
In reply to Re: SAD, autumn blues, Wellbutrin » paxvox, posted by wendy b. on November 1, 2001, at 14:11:16
I've been on 400 mgs for lengthy periods of time to no ill effect. My pdoc told me that if i was going to have seizure problems, they'd surface relatively quickly. I think 450 is the recommended upper limit. I've generally reduced it to 300 when I've added augmentation drugs, but I'm not sure those reductions were really necessaary.
Mair
Posted by Cecilia on November 4, 2001, at 2:16:30
In reply to Re: So what the hell do I have? » Cecilia, posted by Noa on November 1, 2001, at 7:49:51
> Peck said THAT????
Yeah, I can`t remember what book, maybe People of the Lie. It was a case history about a difficult patient who liked to run out of gas on the way to see him so he would spend time with her siphoning gas, and who seemed to be unable to do the free association he wanted until one day she did it perfectly, told him she just wanted to show him she could, and immediately quit therapy. Frankly, I got the impression he was still obsessed with her and writing in his book about how she was evil was his way of getting back.
This is the end of the thread.
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