![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by triedit on August 23, 2001, at 10:13:57
In reply to Alcoholic or Addict? , posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
I think we all need to step back a minute. It's unfair to say that nobody on this board is addicted to thier meds. It is also unfair to say that everyone could be.
The bottom line is we all work our own program and from what I can see, this is a means for us to look at our meds, think about what is best, consider each other's input, and make our own choices. I think posting about addiction is a relavant topic. It happens. Its a reality of the world where general practitioners are allowed to prescribe psych drugs.
There are also alot of addictions. My husband is addicted to coca-cola. If I were, that would affect my meds. My sister abuses grapefruit juice (she swears it makes her lose weight and will drink it until her lips and throat are raw) and that too would affect some meds. I used to smoke. We all know that affects our lives and the lives of those around us.
The bottom line is, we are all different and we need to broaden our horizons. If any one post here helps someone, its a good post.
Posted by Phil on August 23, 2001, at 19:49:21
In reply to sweeping generalizations, posted by triedit on August 23, 2001, at 10:13:57
Rosa, I understand your point but these days Oxycontin is the drug of choice.:-( Out of all the meds I have been on in recent years, my current cocktail is WORKING..I'm actually happy. I have taken Klonopin and Ritalin for years; I have never abused them because I wanted to get well and I never had the urge to up the dose or snort the Ritalin, etc.
I come from a long line of people prone to addiction and have tremendous respect for the devious nature of drugs, alcohol, over-eating, and the 100's of other things we can get caught up in.
I have also sat in many 12 step meetings and have observed people that, in my non-professional opinion, should have been on anti-depressants.
My own mother, after 12 years of recovery from booze, fell into a depression that required immediate hospitalization and ECT. She didn't want to take meds afterwards and I always respected that.
I'm ramblin but bottom line,"We are all doing the best we know how."
Good luck to you on your recovery and thanks for bringing the subject up.Peace,
Phil
Posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 21:49:42
In reply to Alcoholic or Addict? , posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
Thank you for sharing your story, Rosa.
That's not what this board is about
Zo
Posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 21:51:16
In reply to Re: sweeping generalizations, posted by Phil on August 23, 2001, at 19:49:21
Thank you.
That is not the subject of this board.
Zo
Posted by AMenz on August 24, 2001, at 0:00:34
In reply to Alcoholic or Addict? , posted by Rosa on August 23, 2001, at 8:01:38
You're making the common mistake of thinking that addiction to tranquilizers and benzo's, etc is the same thing as taking antidepressants, antipsychotics etc which are not drugs that give an immediate high or low and therefore have the potentioal to create an addictive reaction.
People on this board have a disorder that requires medication, for which there is really not yet an optimal medical solution. You ought to become better informed before continuing to post here things such as just for today I won't take lithium. Then just for tomorrow I'll be insane.
> In my early twenties, I was prescribed Valium ...
>
> I kept renewing the prescription ... while continuing to drink alcohol. I did this for nearly fifteen years ... I also took Benzedrine for awhile. When I returned from overseas my doctor refused to refill my prescription ...
>
> After talking to the doctor, he said, "you don't need a tranquilizer, you need an antidepressant and changed my medication.
>
> Shortly after that I decided to quit drinking to see if it was really a problem ... it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. I was a problem drinker, I drank when I had a "problem". It is still a temptation. I have attended A.A. ever since.
>
> I have been on and off antidepressants since then ... Now, I only take them when I need them ... I only take them at night. (Trazadone) My doctor recommended taking them earlier in the evening or cutting them in half because I said I felt so bad in the morning after taking them.
>
> Prescription drugs have been more of a problem than alcohol ever was.
>
> Two years ago, I finally got up enough courage to go to N.A. I got there by using and abusing prescription drugs.
>
> Today, I am extremely careful what drugs I take.
>
> I have bradycardia (slow heart rate) and passed out during a heart cath. There are a number of heart medications I cannot take.
>
> I also take medications for high blood pressure. There are drug interactions between heart medications and blood pressure medication.
>
> That's my story.
>
> Rosa
>
> -------------------------
>
> > I have had very serious substance abuse problems
> > In the past and go to AA meeting and have been to NA and I work the steps. I could care less if I
> > Am addicted to prescribed medications. I have
> > Not been prescribed any medication that have
> > Caused me to crash my car, assault a person,
> > Spend all my money on drug deals, are end up
> > In jail(like alcohol and street drugs have). The prescribed medications I take
> > Help me from going back to my old alcoholic, drug
> > Addict ways. Thank for the suggestion but the
> > People on this board have serious psychological
> > Problems that NA just will not fix.
> >
> >
> >
> > > If you think you may have a problem with prescribed medications, the Just For Today Meditation may be for you.
> > >
> > > Rosa
> > >
> > > You can read the JFT online at http://www.jft.ca/jftmeditation
Posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 6:46:09
In reply to Re: sweeping generalizations, posted by Phil on August 23, 2001, at 19:49:21
Phil,
Thanks for your interest.
FindLaw: Health Law
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 re: Oxycontin
There are currently 13 lawsuits against the makers of Oxycontin for deaths related to the use of this addictive drug.
Rosa
Rosa, I understand your point but these days Oxycontin is the drug of choice.:-(
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2001, at 11:34:25
In reply to Re: Alcoholic or Addict? » Rosa, posted by Zo on August 23, 2001, at 21:49:42
> That's not what this board is about
I'm not sure I'd agree. This board is for medication-related issues, and addiction to prescription medication certainly is a medication-related issue.
Not all use of prescription medication, however, constitutes addiction.
Agreed?
Bob
Posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 16:12:55
In reply to Re: what this board is about, posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2001, at 11:34:25
> > That's not what this board is about
>
> I'm not sure I'd agree. This board is for medication-related issues, and addiction to prescription medication certainly is a medication-related issue.
Would it be accurate to say, this is not board that exists primarily for the discussion of the dangers of addiction to prescription medications or recovery from same?Thanks,
Zo
Posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 16:50:21
In reply to Re: what this board is about, posted by Dr. Bob on August 24, 2001, at 11:34:25
I agree, not all use of prescription medication constitutes addiction.
What do you think constitutes abuse of medication?
Rosa
That's not what this board is about
>
> I'm not sure I'd agree. This board is for medication-related issues, and addiction to prescription medication certainly is a medication-related issue.
>
> Not all use of prescription medication, however, constitutes addiction.
>
> Agreed?
>
> Bob
Posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 19:23:45
In reply to Abuse of Prescription Medication, posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 16:50:21
I hope you weren't asking me. This is not a subject that interests me, and not what I come to this board to discuss.
Sincerely,
Zo
Posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 22:31:14
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Rosa, posted by Zo on August 24, 2001, at 19:23:45
Zo, I've been coming to this board for a long time. I only say that to let you know that, as far as I can remember, I've never participated in a thread like this. I don't think that's it's an unreasonable subject to discuss.
Meds save my life and I will probably be on them for life. I'm fine with that. But to get angry at the subject matter, when you can just go to what interest you, doesn't really accomplish much...just my opinion.
Also, to deny that some people don't get in trouble with meds is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.
Doesn't hurt to kick this subject around occasionally.
(Above not meant to flame)Phil
Posted by Pennie Lane on August 24, 2001, at 22:38:43
In reply to Abuse of Prescription Medication, posted by Rosa on August 24, 2001, at 16:50:21
Rosa,
You probably already know the problems of abuse involving prescription medicine are not as simple as some replies to your post would indicate. But the problems of prescription drug abuse probaby cannot be solved by simply clicking to a narca-non site and contemplating certain prose, either. In part, the problems are cultural, and involve individuals' expectations and various views of what is considered "normal."
While some regulars at this site probably do have severe mental health problems, which in some cases have been improved by prescription medications, the correlation between etiology, diagnosis and treatment, in the mental health system at large, is tennuous and hardly consistent. The mental health system is used now, as it long has, as a place to bring family members who for whatever reason do not fit in, and where individuals can manipulate the systems to obtain the specific meds they prefer. The claim that anti-depressants and anti-psychotics are not often abused and therefore pyshciatric drugs are not commonly abused is a falacious argument. The claim that psych drugs help some people, therefore you should not be concerned about abuse in other situations is an indifferent and somewhat uncaring stance.
Oxycontin abuse is probably a poor example of abuse of prescription psych drugs. Oxycontin is a pain med, and most problems with Oxycontin stem from diversion or theft of legitimately prescribed dosages (including in some of the pending lawsuits.) Opiods of all sorts have long been diverted for unauthorized use, but psychiatric drugs also created the risk of diversion and abuse. The psychiatric drugs most likely to be abused include amphetamine-class drugs, and sedatives. The more respected a person is as a professional, the greater the likelihood that a doctor will trust their judgement and supply amphetamines or hypnotics based on casual complaints. Adult caretakers of youth, and caregivers for the elderly are also likely candidates for reporting symptoms that reflect the caregiver's personal preference for acceptable behavior instead of a legitimate psychiatric complaint.
Many psych drug abusers would seem to be the least likely; who would guess that the chief justice of the largest state court system in the United States would become a victim of his own abuse of prescription medications.
For anyone who is seriously interested in the problem of prescription drug abuse (and not for those interested in foisting moral judgements or for those anxious to defend their own choice of medications) former New York Chief Justice Sol Wachtler describes his experience with prescription drug abuse in "After the Madness."
A few excerpts from the Chief Justice's jailhouse memoire:
Introduction
(page 3, first words of book…) The facts of my case have been well publicized. I dwell on them not to excuse my wrongful conduct but to explain how I wound up in prison and how the abuse of drugs, even those legally prescribed, and untreated mental disorder, can destroy.
The decomposition of my life began slowly, almost imperceptibly. ...
(page 4) While suffering this profound depression, and not wanting to bear the stigma of seeing a psychiatrist, I attempted to self medicate. I was able to convince one doctor to prescribe Tenuate, an amphetaminelike drug I used to elevate my energy level and thereby mask my depression. (I took 1400 of them in a four month period). And because I could not sleep, I was able to convince another doctor to prescribe a hypnotic called Halcion (I took 280 of them during the same four months). Still another doctor gave me a prescription for Pamelor, an antidepressant. And there were others. All of these drugs taken by themselves have dangerous side effects. Taken together the reaction can be devastating. In my case it contributed to and exacerbated a diagnosed manic-depressive (bipolar) disorder.
(Page 7, from Watchler's post arrest psychiatric report by Doctors William A. Forsch (Cornell) and Frank T. Miller (Payne Whitney): “Judge Watchler’s severe mental illness is best categorized as drug induced and exacerbated bipolar disorder (manic depression).”
(page 9 before his arrest) ...I told the doctor only what I wanted to reveal...
(page 13) I was in Sedona, Arizona, to address the Nevada Bar Association. I couldn’t sleep. I had taken two Halcion and two Unisom and still I couldn’t sleep. Was it the three Tenuate I had taken that afternoon to keep me from depression? Maybe but at the time I didn’t think I really needed the sleep – what I needed was time to think....
...And suddenly it came to me, a manically induced epiphany...
Posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 23:31:29
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Rosa, posted by Pennie Lane on August 24, 2001, at 22:38:43
Was not trying to infer that Oxycontin was a psych drug. Just shootin the breeze. Probably should have mentioned Disco Bisquits; The late 70's wonder drug...Quaaludes. :-)
Posted by Rosa on August 25, 2001, at 7:49:36
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication Penny Lane, posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 23:31:29
Is this board limited to sedatives, antidepressants, antianxiety drugs and antipsychotics?
Rosa
> Was not trying to infer that Oxycontin was a psych drug. Just shootin the breeze. Probably should have mentioned Disco Bisquits; The late 70's wonder drug...Quaaludes. :-)
Posted by Pennie Lane on August 25, 2001, at 11:41:48
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication Penny Lane, posted by Rosa on August 25, 2001, at 7:49:36
Rosa:
re: "Is this board limited to sedatives, antidepressants, antianxiety drugs and antipsychotics?"
no, i don't think so, but that does cover a broad swath of psych drugs, and this board is focused on psych drugs. There has been discussion at times about whether psychiatric treatment can be discussed primarily from a pharmaceutical approach. I think a primary focus on medications tends to discount other factors that contribute to psychiatric complaints, but that is what PBSocial is supposed to be about. For my interests, the discussion there tends to be very social and casual. It is not as often focused on theoretical or scientific evidence of social/behavioral/cultural stressors that contribute to psychiatric problems.
The doc seems to have established a boundary here when he said this board (PB) does allow discussion of psychiatric drug abuse. For the sake of discussion, the abuse of Oxycontin, quaalude, GHB, rolfies, and other such drugs is interesting, but is not central to a discussion of psyhciatric drug abuse.
Sedatives and stimulants prescribed specifically for phsyciatric complaints are often abused, even by people in positions of authority, so discussion of abuse involving those drugs is particularly interesting. The abuse of other pshyc drugs, such as anti-depressents, is also very interesting, but can be problematic on this board. Some people are convinced, rightly or wrongly, that they have no personal issues but instead are effected by an exclusively biological disorder that is of an entirely different league than are psych symptoms related to a social situation or to life-stresses. I might disagree - people might feel they have enjoyed a normal youth, but might not realize how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results. So if you want to discuss that here, I might contribute, but you should know it has been a sensitive topic and if the discussion does not frequently touch on psych drugs, or maybe even if it approaches psych drugs from a critical angle, you might get booted over to PB.
Now, in the use and abuse of amphetamines, the topic would seem to fit here, but again, some people's opinion of the overall use of these drugs might be influenced by their own preference for amphetamines or by their need to defend the practice of ready access to psych drugs in general. (Or at least ready access for those who can afford access.)
Phil:
I didn't mean to insinuate that you were insinuating Oxycontin was a psych drug, though I realize it appeared to be the case. My intent was to focus on patterns of abuse that are particular to psych drugs. In most cases, those patterns involve selective reporting of symptoms intended to obtain prescriptions for a chosen drug, or in the misidentification of symptoms by caregivers who do not understand the social and behavioral complications effecting those they care for. Diversion and theft seems to be more of an issue with opiods than with psych drugs. People tend to obtain homemade amphetamines on the black market rather than through the medical community, and it is often arguable that their purpose is self-medication of the same symptoms for which a licensed practitioner would administer similar sympathomemetics.
Beneath the blue suburban skies
I sit and meanwhile back.>
> Rosa
>
> > Was not trying to infer that Oxycontin was a psych drug. Just shootin the breeze. Probably should have mentioned Disco Bisquits; The late 70's wonder drug...Quaaludes. :-)
Posted by Zo on August 25, 2001, at 17:35:09
In reply to Re: Zo, posted by Phil on August 24, 2001, at 22:31:14
Thanks, Phil. I didn't mean to sound angry. Just meant, I don't come here to be to be "saved" by anybody. . but may not have been alert to subject matter of thread. Not too alert last few days. Of course it's worth discussing.
Zo
Posted by Phil on August 25, 2001, at 19:21:12
In reply to Re: Zo » Phil , posted by Zo on August 25, 2001, at 17:35:09
No big deal. Have to agree with Pennie Lane also.
And the fireman rushes in
From the pouring rain
Very strange
Posted by Marie1 on August 26, 2001, at 8:35:16
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Rosa, posted by Pennie Lane on August 25, 2001, at 11:41:48
Pennie Lane,
What you have to say here about people thinking their depression has been caused solely by some neurotransmitter imbalance is interesting to me. I always thought my depression was purely biological, inherited from my looney tunes grandmother (I'm allowed; I too am "looney tunes :-)). My brother suicided, due to undiagnosed depression and that added to my theory about myself. Basically, I didn't feel that I had the stressors that typically contribute to a "situational depression". So went to g.p. and started Prozac, which luckily worked for me. This too reinforced the physiological depression theory. However, after 18 months in psychotherapy (after a bout of major depression), I'm beginning to wonder just how much of this illness really is bio-chemical. I also have abuse problems with alcohol and prescription meds. I've come to think my depression may be a combination of things, with a genetic predisposition to mental illness. Part of the problem is, I don't want to think my past was anything but normal. We weren't the Brady Bunch, but was it really that bad? Hard for me to say; that was my reality and I had nothing else to compare it to.
Anyway, I was curious if this is what you meant when you said "how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results."
I was also curious as to your background. Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist? Thanks for your thoughts.Marie
Underneath the blue suburban skies, I sit and meanwhile back at Pennie Lane....
Posted by Rosa on August 26, 2001, at 9:11:05
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Pennie Lane, posted by Marie1 on August 26, 2001, at 8:35:16
I hope this will help explain how we are affected by the environment in which we grew up. Although this is a social issue, it leads to being prescribed medication in some cases.
Here are the characteristics we seem to have in common due to being brought up in an alcoholic or dysfunctional home.
a. We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures.
b. We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process.
c. We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism.
d. We either become alcoholics, marry them, or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our abandonment needs.
e. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
f. We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us
to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. This enables us not to
look too closely at our own faults.g. We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
h. We become addicted to excitement.
i. We confuse love with pity and tend to "love" people who we can "pity" and "rescue".
j. We have stuffed our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost
the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much (denial).k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
l. We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings which we received from living with sick people who were
never there emotionally for us.m. Alcoholism is a family disease and we became para-alcoholics and took on the characteristics of the disease even though we did not pick up the drink.
n. Para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors.
(Adapted version) Tony A., 1977
Reprinted from WSO Newcomer, Page 2, with permission from Adult Children of
Alcoholics, World Service Organization,
P. O. Box 3216, Torrance, CA 90510
310/ 534-1815.
_________________________________For further information about Adult Children of Alcoholics, go to the following URL:
www.adultchildren.org
> Pennie Lane,
> What you have to say here about people thinking their depression has been caused solely by some neurotransmitter imbalance is interesting to me. I always thought my depression was purely biological, inherited from my looney tunes grandmother (I'm allowed; I too am "looney tunes :-)). My brother suicided, due to undiagnosed depression and that added to my theory about myself. Basically, I didn't feel that I had the stressors that typically contribute to a "situational depression". So went to g.p. and started Prozac, which luckily worked for me. This too reinforced the physiological depression theory. However, after 18 months in psychotherapy (after a bout of major depression), I'm beginning to wonder just how much of this illness really is bio-chemical. I also have abuse problems with alcohol and prescription meds. I've come to think my depression may be a combination of things, with a genetic predisposition to mental illness. Part of the problem is, I don't want to think my past was anything but normal. We weren't the Brady Bunch, but was it really that bad? Hard for me to say; that was my reality and I had nothing else to compare it to.
> Anyway, I was curious if this is what you meant when you said "how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results."
> I was also curious as to your background. Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist? Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Marie
>
> Underneath the blue suburban skies, I sit and meanwhile back at Pennie Lane....
Posted by Pennie Lane on August 26, 2001, at 12:59:22
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Pennie Lane, posted by Marie1 on August 26, 2001, at 8:35:16
Marie1,
It seems that, whether adverse mental health symptoms are primarily biological or psychological, they are always both.
The nature/nurture question has been thoroughly tossed around on this board in several threads, directly and indirectly, until it seems major proponents of either view can articulate and incorporate in their own theories elements of the other view. If there is a middle ground, and I believe that there is, a loose consensus tends to evolve around the idea that inherited physiological factors can predispose some people to crumble when exposed to certain environmental stresses. Stressors can include social/family influence, nutritional deficits or disease. But a hybrid theory, I don't beleive, means any individual's symptoms can conclusively be said to be exclusively caused by nature or nurture. For all our study, we might be close to finding out, but we still don't know.
For me, the hybrid of inherited and environmental influences might provide an answer to prosecutors’ favorite line against psychiatric defenses, which says "Daddy abused Johnny's brother too, but Johnny's brother didn't go kill anybody. Johnny killed because he is bad, not because he was abused." Well, maybe Johnny's brother inherited a different genetic predisposition. Or, of course, maybe brother by chance and opportunity just developed a different coping style (or never got caught in his aggressive deeds).
If we allow for a hybrid of inherited and environmental factors, we reach another interesting question. When and where were the genetic traits introduced? An interesting lesson in genetic predisposition can be found in the population of HIV positive individuals. Some who test positive for HIV never develop AIDS symptoms and live much longer than those who develop symptoms. As a caveat, I don't believe, for all the billions in spending, that influences of lifestyle and immunosuppressive behaviors have been thoroughly documented. But what has been reported with general acceptance is that a group infected with the most common type of HIV in the United States and that is resistant to AIDS symptoms is predominately of European origin.
Well that's about a racist disease! But the genetic differences of Europeans, and of other cultures have played a major role in world history. Examples include the destruction by disease of native nations on the American continent when Europeans arrived (natives had not inherited immune sensitivity to European diseases) and perhaps the impact of tropical diseases on European travelers in more southern climes.
With HIV, the genetic trait that is theorized to predispose select individual to survive with HIV is believed to result for the era of the plague in Europe. The same trait that allowed some individuals to survive the plague is believed to predispose their descendants to survive HIV. And since they survived the plague, carriers of that trait now represent a greater portion of the European/American population than descendants of individuals who were not immune to bubonic plague.
But could this tendency toward cultural influence in natural selection apply to mental health problems? I think so. Maybe, sometime back around Charlemagne, give or take a thousand years or more, people who kept to themselves, succumbed to authority and presented other symptoms listed in the WSO list Rosa posted - maybe people genetically predisposed to those behaviors were more likely to successfully reproduce. Certainly through the Inquisition, individuals of European origin who might have been genetically predisposed to individuality, self-direction and originality were not favored in the unnatural selection process that determined matters of survival in the dungeons and fiery pyres of that day. Similar processes might have favored certain traits in other groups, but I don't want to go any further out on thin ice by suggesting specific genetic traits that might inhabit minority populations. And it is hard if not impossible at this time to determine how much of most behavioral traits might be genetic or culturally determined.
Whether symptoms are primarily a product of genetic or environmental influences, our choices of treatment might be the same. It's not like genetic causes imply chemical fixes and environmental causes imply psychological fixes. Psychological help might assist us in coping with primarily genetic traits. Medications might help us in coping with primarily environmentally induced symptoms.
The challenge, at least in gleaning some guidance from a forum such as this one, is to assimilate what can be learned from others without letting others paint you into a corner in an effort to defend their own choices. For you and I to discuss environmental causes of symptoms might be threatening to others who are convinced their symptoms are exclusively genetic and can only be treated with medications. But the goal here, I think, is to assist individuals interested in sharing some control over their choice of treatment. To that end, nobody's authoritative argument based on their own experience should outweigh your authority to reach conclusions based on the entire body of evidence available to you.
Am I a psych? …ologist or …iatrist? Sure. As payment for my services, please send a check, with the "pay to" line blank, to this anonymous New York City post office box...
Not. At least not of the credentialed (and trained) professional variety. Like many people who visit discussions such as this, I believe that I have as much right to develop opinions based on the entire body of evidence available to me as do working professionals. I think we would all do well to be better informed consumers and less trusting of elite caregivers whose interests can be directed as much by market forces (or political environment) as they are by concern for the suffering of their clients.
Posted by Mitch on August 26, 2001, at 12:59:49
In reply to A Social Issue? » Marie1, posted by Rosa on August 26, 2001, at 9:11:05
> I hope this will help explain how we are affected by the environment in which we grew up. Although this is a social issue, it leads to being prescribed medication in some cases.
>
> Here are the characteristics we seem to have in common due to being brought up in an alcoholic or dysfunctional home.
>
> a. We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures.
>
> b. We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process.
>
> c. We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism.
>
> e. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
>
> g. We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
>
> k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
>Rosa,
Interestingly, half of these traits appear to be paraphrased criteria (DSM-wise) for social anxiety disorder. What if a LOT of people with substance abuse really are just social phobics that need specific treatment for that disorder? We know that our brain gets "rewired" in a more *rewarding* way when we interact with others in a positive benevolent manner. When "normal" people feel malaise or boredom they tend to seek out company to relieve the blues. The process becomes "self-correcting" and they tend not to become ill. Individuals with anxiety/depressive disorders often become isolated and can abuse drugs/alcohol instead. I heard somewhere that dopamine dysfunction in the brains of people with social anxiety/depression tends to perpetuate isolation. Perhaps the reason CBT can be effective is it "resets" your false assumptions about others and *confirms* the new more rational assumptions through the experience of social group "projects", resulting in brains gets *rewired* and the reward system "fixed". What if Alanon, Narcanon, church, sports/games, etc. fundamentally are therapeutic mechanisms to keep individual brains functioning properly through modulation of dopamine/reward systems?
M.
Posted by Pennie Lane on August 26, 2001, at 13:49:17
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication » Pennie Lane, posted by Marie1 on August 26, 2001, at 8:35:16
For all my profundity and rambling, I probably didn’t answer your question about, “if this is what you meant when you said ‘how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results.’"
Yes, that is essentially what I meant. Even if depression usually or sometimes involves a genetic bio-chemical factor, or a socially influenced bio-chemical factor, it remains to be answered whether that factor would produce depression in all circumstances. A person might be predisposed by birth or experience to a behavioral trait that would be acceptable in other cultural surroundings, but which is unacceptable and leads to depression in a particular culture. The depression could be a secondary expression. Depression has often been found to be a secondary symptom of another undiagnosed unperceptual impairment. The ease of identifying a common secondary symptom - depression - might interfere with more difficult efforts to identify a wide variety of unique primary factors that contribute to depression.
In another culture, the required physical activity (which tends to produce serotonin) or the social environment might not aggravate a depressive trait the same way our culture does. A comparison would be diabetes – some people never develop diabetes on a traditional indigenous diet, but are more genetically inclined than others to develop diabetes when they switch to a diet high in carbohydrates and starches. The inherent dopamine needs of individuals whose genetic history included a culture dependant on foods rich in dopamine precursors might incline them to reward deficit symptoms when they change diets – they might be predisposed to alcoholism (or to abuse of prescription meds) as a way of tweaking their dopamine activity.
I’m not saying I think depression is primarily genetic or situational in origin across the board. And I’m not saying meds or psychological therapy are the best treatment for symptoms of either origin. What I am saying is things are not as simple as they seem, and any combination of therapy, social activity, professionally directed medication or self-medication might prove helpful for any given individual’s unique set of symptoms and circumstances.
Posted by gilbert on August 26, 2001, at 23:27:24
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication, posted by Pennie Lane on August 26, 2001, at 13:49:17
Well the same old story about how taking meds violates the integrity of working your 12 step program. I have been sober 15 years from cocaine and vodka. I have been on xanax for the last 3 years...it has literally saved my life. After 10 years sober and suffering from severe panic and agoraphobia I was suicidal. I got help and meds and my life is wonderfull. The big book allows for medical use of medication which most people in AA and NA seem to read past or miss. The founder of the 12 steps Bill W. suffered from such severe depressions that he experimented with LSD after he had been sober many years so even the founder knew that those of us who are dual diagnosed I.E. addicts and panic or depressives would need medical attention. I have been put through hell trying to take "program acceptable drugs" to feel like I fell inbetween the lines and suffered needlessly. I do not get high off my xanax, I do not get thrown in jail, I do not run from bar to bar looking for quick sex....although I am older now so it would be more like slow sex, I feel normal for the first time in my life. I just came back from vacation and was able to drive across the Mackinaw bridge panic free for the first time in years. Thank God for modern science. When Rosa has been sober for a few more years she may realize that alcohol and valium was only a symptom of her illness and hopefully she will be able to get by without meds.....but I see tons of people at AA meetings who are suffering needlessly due the stigma of taking these drugs. Panic disorder and depression kill just like alcoholism the only difference is mental illness hasn't hit the chic status that addiction has. We just don't get the parade of movie stars on Larry King saying how they are fighting mental illness but boy if they get clean they run for those cameras.
Gil
Posted by Marie1 on August 27, 2001, at 7:40:15
In reply to Re: Abuse of Prescription Medication, posted by Pennie Lane on August 26, 2001, at 13:49:17
Pennie Lane,
Thank you. All of this is very interesting to me. As the mother of two daughters, it's important to me to grasp what I can about my illness, as the genetic predisposition is obviously quite strong in my family. My brother's suidice shocked us all deeply (even myself; I hadn't "been there, done that" yet). My remaining siblings (there were seven of us originally) don't seem to have inherited mentall illness, at least on the surface. But one sister is a former heroin addict and another brother just recently died from complications of obesity, which he has had all his life. I always wondered about that too. What was it about my brother that he turned to food as a coping mechanism? Why didn't I? How much control did he have over his body? That his life was made miserable by his physical condition is undeniable; how fucking unfair if he really had no recourse.
I have also wondered just why so many people (it seems) have developed depression during the 20th century. I know it was around before then, but these days it seems to be epidemic. I think this may be in part due to: 1. the relatively sedentary life style of people in this computer and labor-saving machinery age. We all know that consistent exercise contributes to healthy brains, but it's difficult to get exercise while going about the business of living, unless it's a scheduled activity; and 2. (and I even hesitate to post this) spirituality. Many of us, disturbed by the hypocrisy and self serving of many organized religions, have abandoned spirituality all together.
Okay, enough of my rambling, I'm off to work while the kids are enjoying (! :-)) their first day at school. Yeah!!!Marie
> For all my profundity and rambling, I probably didn’t answer your question about, “if this is what you meant when you said ‘how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results.’"
>
> Yes, that is essentially what I meant. Even if depression usually or sometimes involves a genetic bio-chemical factor, or a socially influenced bio-chemical factor, it remains to be answered whether that factor would produce depression in all circumstances. A person might be predisposed by birth or experience to a behavioral trait that would be acceptable in other cultural surroundings, but which is unacceptable and leads to depression in a particular culture. The depression could be a secondary expression. Depression has often been found to be a secondary symptom of another undiagnosed unperceptual impairment. The ease of identifying a common secondary symptom - depression - might interfere with more difficult efforts to identify a wide variety of unique primary factors that contribute to depression.
>
> In another culture, the required physical activity (which tends to produce serotonin) or the social environment might not aggravate a depressive trait the same way our culture does. A comparison would be diabetes – some people never develop diabetes on a traditional indigenous diet, but are more genetically inclined than others to develop diabetes when they switch to a diet high in carbohydrates and starches. The inherent dopamine needs of individuals whose genetic history included a culture dependant on foods rich in dopamine precursors might incline them to reward deficit symptoms when they change diets – they might be predisposed to alcoholism (or to abuse of prescription meds) as a way of tweaking their dopamine activity.
>
> I’m not saying I think depression is primarily genetic or situational in origin across the board. And I’m not saying meds or psychological therapy are the best treatment for symptoms of either origin. What I am saying is things are not as simple as they seem, and any combination of therapy, social activity, professionally directed medication or self-medication might prove helpful for any given individual’s unique set of symptoms and circumstances.
Posted by Marie1 on August 27, 2001, at 7:47:32
In reply to A Social Issue? » Marie1, posted by Rosa on August 26, 2001, at 9:11:05
Rosa,
I'm not sure about this list as it applies to me, although some of these charateristics I can relate to. Obviously, we're all different people with different genetic makeup and life experiences, so I think it's impossible to come up with a list of personality characteristics that apply to all who may have had a less than desirable childhood. But interesting, nevertheless.Marie
> I hope this will help explain how we are affected by the environment in which we grew up. Although this is a social issue, it leads to being prescribed medication in some cases.
>
> Here are the characteristics we seem to have in common due to being brought up in an alcoholic or dysfunctional home.
>
> a. We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures.
>
> b. We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process.
>
> c. We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism.
>
> d. We either become alcoholics, marry them, or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our abandonment needs.
>
> e. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
>
> f. We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us
> to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. This enables us not to
> look too closely at our own faults.
>
> g. We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
>
> h. We become addicted to excitement.
>
> i. We confuse love with pity and tend to "love" people who we can "pity" and "rescue".
>
> j. We have stuffed our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost
> the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much (denial).
>
> k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
>
> l. We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings which we received from living with sick people who were
> never there emotionally for us.
>
> m. Alcoholism is a family disease and we became para-alcoholics and took on the characteristics of the disease even though we did not pick up the drink.
>
> n. Para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors.
>
> (Adapted version) Tony A., 1977
>
> Reprinted from WSO Newcomer, Page 2, with permission from Adult Children of
> Alcoholics, World Service Organization,
> P. O. Box 3216, Torrance, CA 90510
> 310/ 534-1815.
> _________________________________
>
> For further information about Adult Children of Alcoholics, go to the following URL:
>
> www.adultchildren.org
>
> > Pennie Lane,
> > What you have to say here about people thinking their depression has been caused solely by some neurotransmitter imbalance is interesting to me. I always thought my depression was purely biological, inherited from my looney tunes grandmother (I'm allowed; I too am "looney tunes :-)). My brother suicided, due to undiagnosed depression and that added to my theory about myself. Basically, I didn't feel that I had the stressors that typically contribute to a "situational depression". So went to g.p. and started Prozac, which luckily worked for me. This too reinforced the physiological depression theory. However, after 18 months in psychotherapy (after a bout of major depression), I'm beginning to wonder just how much of this illness really is bio-chemical. I also have abuse problems with alcohol and prescription meds. I've come to think my depression may be a combination of things, with a genetic predisposition to mental illness. Part of the problem is, I don't want to think my past was anything but normal. We weren't the Brady Bunch, but was it really that bad? Hard for me to say; that was my reality and I had nothing else to compare it to.
> > Anyway, I was curious if this is what you meant when you said "how the norms they excepted effected their development, and what alternatives might have produced different results."
> > I was also curious as to your background. Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist? Thanks for your thoughts.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > Underneath the blue suburban skies, I sit and meanwhile back at Pennie Lane....
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