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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by katrina on March 27, 2001, at 9:30:55
Curious why zyprexa had a robust response for 5 days and then pooped out (it did improve my sleep and anxiety). Theories...?
Posted by SLS on March 27, 2001, at 18:47:31
In reply to Poop-out of zyprexa; start geodon-Comments, posted by katrina on March 27, 2001, at 9:30:55
Dear Katrina,
> Curious why zyprexa had a robust response for 5 days and then pooped out (it did improve my sleep and anxiety). Theories...?
What were you taking Zyprexa for? Depression?
What dosages have you been taking?
I have seen Zyprexa produce an antidepressant response in the absence of other drugs, but I didn't follow the people long enough to see how things turned out. One person felt well for a week, and then began to feel worse again. I never had the opportunity to speak to her again.
I think drugs like Zyprexa and Risperdal work best when combined with other medications.
You (and perhaps the person I spoke to) might have experienced what I like to call a "blip". A blip is a brief improvement that occurs very early in treatment that may last for hours or days. This is thought by some to be a good sign of eventual success.
It is critical to understand that the true long-term antidepressant response may not show up for weeks. It does not seem unusual that someone will experience an initial positive reaction when Zyprexa or Risperdal is first added, only to have this improvement disappear temporarily. After a few weeks, a trend towards improvement will be recognized, with the magnitude of improvement to grow steadily over the course of a few weeks to a few months in some cases. I know of two people for whom this was the scenario, myself being one of them.
Hopefully, the initial "blip" response you experienced indicates that you will eventually glean a robust antidepressant response. I hope so.
No guarantees, or course.
I am not familiar with the behavior of Zyprexa when it is used for schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, so I can't comment on "poop-out" when used for these illnesses.
Regarding Geodon, it might work great, but it is not yet a proven product for depression. My guess is that it will show itself to be effective in the role of an augmenting (helper) agent. It is not supposed to produce weight-gain. However, if you have no other issues with Zyprexa, like weight-gain, it might make sense to stick with it.
- Scott
Posted by katrina on March 27, 2001, at 20:41:03
In reply to Re: Poop-out of zyprexa; start geodon-Comments, posted by SLS on March 27, 2001, at 18:47:31
thanks...
I added zyprexa cuz it seemed like a good idea. I was in a pit and it literally pulled me out where zoloft wouldn't and then it pooped out. Might be some BPII issues??? my mind was clear, anxiety lifted, flatness gone, no anhedonia...it wore off, but my pdoc thinks it just produced a shift and then leveled off or something...I stopped it last night and started 20mgs of geodon because it did cause me to gain 5 pounds in 3 weeks where No med has ever done that so I thought I would give the geodon a try. We are thinking about lamictal.
Posted by Cece on March 28, 2001, at 3:18:03
In reply to Re: Poop-out of zyprexa; start geodon-Comments, posted by katrina on March 27, 2001, at 20:41:03
I've just added a small (12.5mg) dose of Zyprexa to my regimen which also includes mood stabilizes, a TCA, benzo, and thyroid. I'm trying it becuz I alos fall "into pits", bad pits- set off by some external event- rejection, sense of failure, overload of pressure/stress. I get really depressed, also agitated, physically tense, and labile. But I have had bad weight gain problems with other meds and am worried about this one.
I want to follow this thread and hear other people's experiences with Zyprexa v. Geodon- my pdoc has no experience yet with the latter, although he's willing to prescribe it.
How similar are the 2 meds in effect- anyone have enuf experience yet to venture an opinion?
Thanks,
Cece
Posted by katrina on March 28, 2001, at 11:19:32
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon?, posted by Cece on March 28, 2001, at 3:18:03
I am on day 2 of geodon at just 20mgs at night. I am on the thin side anyway and have never really had med. weight gain until the zyprexa, which caused me to gain 5 pounds in 3 weeks or so...not so bad cuz it helped my poor appetite...I do notice my appetite is down a bit after going off zyprexa. The jury is still out on the geodon cuz it's only been 2 days. Oh, I did not sleep as good last night...I woke up 3 times, but went back to sleep whereas with zyprexa I slept through the whole night (finally). I only took 2.5 mgs of zyprexa.
Posted by Cece on March 28, 2001, at 12:57:10
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon?, posted by katrina on March 28, 2001, at 11:19:32
Thanks for the response Katrina- discouraging as it is. I'm not on the thin side unfortunately! I have however recently re-added a small (25mg/day) amount of Topomax to my cocktail- I took it for almost a year, up to 100mg/day. It did not seem to do much as a mood stabilizer for me, and did give me some word-finding problems, BUT I lost 40 pounds (gained from other meds) while I was on it. I'm hoping that on a small dose, I might get some weight loss benefit without the cognitive problems. Don't know if this will counteract any Zyprexa effect however, given people's accounts. I took Z. for the first time last night- definitely feel calmer today.
I started Lamictal almost a year ago- I increased VERY slowly as I am real sensitive to meds, I take Depakote (250mg/day) which potentiates Lamictal, and my pdoc (at the time) is cautious with that drug. I've been at 125mg/day for about 3 months now. I got immediate benefit from the Lamictal, even at a very small dose, in terms of mood improvement- I was able to enjoy things that I hadn't been able to enjoy for a long time. My new pdoc thinks however that, especially in light of my recent fall into a pit, I need to keep building the Lamictal to achieve a real mood stabilization effect. He, and my past pdoc, both think that it's a great med.
Good luck,
Cece
> I am on day 2 of geodon at just 20mgs at night. I am on the thin side anyway and have never really had med. weight gain until the zyprexa, which caused me to gain 5 pounds in 3 weeks or so...not so bad cuz it helped my poor appetite...I do notice my appetite is down a bit after going off zyprexa. The jury is still out on the geodon cuz it's only been 2 days. Oh, I did not sleep as good last night...I woke up 3 times, but went back to sleep whereas with zyprexa I slept through the whole night (finally). I only took 2.5 mgs of zyprexa.
Posted by katrina on March 28, 2001, at 16:41:35
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon? » katrina, posted by Cece on March 28, 2001, at 12:57:10
Did you start at 25 mgs?
What is your mood disorder like?
Posted by Cece on March 29, 2001, at 23:21:03
In reply to tell me more about the lamictal, please, posted by katrina on March 28, 2001, at 16:41:35
Hi-
I started the Lamictal, as I recall at 12.5mg, and increased by 6.25mg every one to two weeks. Even at those tiny increases I got flushing and flu-like symptoms the second day after increase- quite tolerable once I got used to it, but an indication of sensitivity (which can actually be a good sign, and it seems it was). Remember that I also take Depakote (low dose, 250mg/day) which substantially potentiates the Lamictal. My pdoc had seen some scary reactions from Lamictal, and had become cautious with dosing. I am sure that if I had proceeded at the dose increases that are "normal", I would have really reacted badly and been scared off of what has turned out to be a good med for me. But plenty of people can handle the normal increases.
My disorder...hum. Well, it's Bipolar II, of some sort. My biggest problem is depression, but I have some hypomania, substantial anxiety, and have had what may be some mixed-state episodes. My past pdoc once said that I might pass for a regular anxious depressive except for my constant "simmering" quality. I thought that that was interesting- I do experience a constant inner pressure. I pass for normal in the world (or at least as a normal neurotic- I've gotten very good over the years at disguising myself), and even many of my friends have a hard time understanding why I take all these meds. But the fact is, I regularly become dysfunctional to some degree (sometimes horribly so) and hide out.
Does this help? What's your story (if you feel like talking).
Cece
> Did you start at 25 mgs?
> What is your mood disorder like?
Posted by katrina on March 30, 2001, at 8:40:35
In reply to Re: tell me more about the lamictal, please » katrina, posted by Cece on March 29, 2001, at 23:21:03
Much like you and yet probably very different...I am a recovering alcoholic and have been sober 4+ years. I am 31 now. This beast was waiting for me so let me tell ya that the drinking and drugging got REALLY bad before I stopped and yes, it was like gasoline on a fire with a mood disorder. Anyway, I am successful, smart and cute...but behind that has been mind numbing depression, periods of hypomania/aggression/irritability, etc. Of course, a pdoc put me on SSRI's, which are unhelpful. Since I have been sober (thus aware of what's going on) I can track my mood cycles within the year, within the month, the week and sometimes within the day. My depression is: hopelessness, extreme fatigue, self-loathing, suicidal plans/thoughts, huge desire to self-injure, but I do not, Isolation, A PIT--feel like I weigh 200 pounds, ya know. It can last 2 months at the lowest point and shift to mildly horrible at other times. I totally get that simmering idea big time or the inner anguish!! Anyway, I was not getting better on SSRI's and don't tolerate them too well. The hypomania periods seemed productive to me yet the spending and aggression were uncomfortable, ya know and afterwards the shift to depression is horrendous. My last pit felt bottomless-scary. HENCE, I tried zyprexa and what a difference it pulled me out of a pit yet pooped out and thus my transition to lamictal with my 50 mgs of zoloft because I know I need the stability. I switched to geodon, but zyprexa gave me better sleep so the jury is still out, but I have hope today and am giving the lamictal a shot. (day 2 25mgs) I will see Dubovsky in Denver in May. I am sure I've left a lot out, but in a nutshell...so wonderful of you to communicate...the common struggle is unique and yet not. Katrina
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 15:26:27
In reply to Cece-my details to date, posted by katrina on March 30, 2001, at 8:40:35
I think I can relate b/c, I am currently there w/depression, except for the 'sleep' problem which doesn't get min my way, I am so 'out' of it and anxious. I also have/had had suicidal thoughts that were unintentional but, they did exist.
Posted by KarenB on March 30, 2001, at 16:31:02
In reply to I think I can relate, posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 15:26:27
Hi everyone.
I have been on Geodon since the minute it came out - I am in my second month. It has done wonders for removing (completely) ruminating thought patterns and most of my anxiety issues...except during the monthly hell of PMDD. Nothing yet has seemed to put a dent in that mess but we'll see about this month.
Katrina - Seeing Dubovsky in Denver was the best move I ever made. A wonderful woman on this board gave up her own appointment for me when she could see that I needed to see him more than she, at the time. It takes months, as you know, to get an appointment. I had been misdiagnosed with ADD (only) when I actually suffer both ADD and Bipolar Disorder. It was the mood disorder causing most of my concentration issues, though, and the Adderall was provoking rapid cycling and some especially ugly mixed states. I share your and Cece's symptoms.
Let us know how it goes with the Geodon. I also got better sleep on Zyprexa but it made me groggy in the morning and I gained 20 lbs in 2 months!! Now, that's a depression all in itself. I am now in the process of sweating it off with exercise and diet but it hasn't been easy to lose. I have been slim all my life and this has been difficult for me.
Best of health to you all.
Karen
Posted by katrina on March 30, 2001, at 17:28:13
In reply to Re: I think I can relate/Geodon, posted by KarenB on March 30, 2001, at 16:31:02
Yeah, adderall made me cycle, too.
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 18:50:17
In reply to Re: I think I can relate/Geodon, posted by KarenB on March 30, 2001, at 16:31:02
Wow, I do feel really bad for you that you have gained extra weight. For a woman, it is psychologically important to remain fit/slim/thin and, once that is lost, life often turns bad but not always. I am a guy, I am 20, I find it hard enough to get my body into 'visually' appealing shape. FYI, I am 5'3, 155lbs, got some muscle but, am fat. My 'fat' has really nothing to do with the medicine, it has to do with me since I was like 5yrs old. I am actually to be honest, quite depressed about my body, OCD to the max except, not too much complusive hand washing but, I do wash hands up 10 times a day.
Argh, I am basically going insane well, I mean I think my self-esteem is in the dumps. I suppose we can all say that I have DISTORTED views of myself/the world. Anyways, enough of me, Good luck on your weight loss.
Posted by john bower on July 25, 2001, at 22:30:21
In reply to I think I can relate, posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 15:26:27
I take klonopin for sleep. Stayed awake more than 24 hours without sleep before using Zyprexa to sleep or Seroquel.
Then turned to Klonopin.
Posted by SCFields on August 13, 2001, at 13:01:23
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon?, posted by Cece on March 28, 2001, at 3:18:03
> Hi All,
I've been on Zyprexa for about 4 months (10 mg at nite). I sleep like a zombie. I used to only need 6 hrs a day ... now I need 8 or 9. I don't concentrate/listen near as well as I used to. But it sure killed my nervousness/anxiety and attacks and I've avoided any cycles. (I'm BP II).
I gained 5 lbs almost immediately, so I was prescribed topamax to help with the wieght gain (5 mg per day). I still gained another 5-6 lbs. I'm ready to try Geodon for the weight gain issue. Problem is topmax also causes drowsiness. I just don't seem to have much extra energy anymore. Does anyone know if it has the same fatigue factor as Zyprexa?Thanks!
Steve
Posted by SCFields on August 13, 2001, at 13:11:49
In reply to Cece-my details to date, posted by katrina on March 30, 2001, at 8:40:35
>"Gasoline on a fire with a mood disorder" is very aptly written. You really hit the nail on the head with that one ...
Posted by chloe on August 13, 2001, at 19:38:49
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon?, posted by SCFields on August 13, 2001, at 13:01:23
> I just don't seem to have much extra energy anymore. Does anyone know if it has the same fatigue factor as Zyprexa?
Steve,
In my experience, I found Geodon to be quite activating. Compared to Zyprexa, it's a pep pill, imho! Geodon has some AD qualities, and I was a bit hypomanic for the first few days on it. I had trouble sleeping and talked a blue streak in the beginning! I really liked how I felt on it, but then I developed tongue movements and had to discontinue.If you do a search in the archives, I think you will find a lot of info about how different these two drugs are. Geodon might be a nice option for you, if you feeling sluggish. It is less sedating and for me, somewhat energizing. Everyone reacts differently though...
Good luck!
chloe
Posted by SCFields on August 14, 2001, at 9:05:57
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon? » SCFields, posted by chloe on August 13, 2001, at 19:38:49
>Thanks for the info Chloe. I'll check the archives.
>I have a pdoc appt today and am going to ask to try the Geodon. The combo of topamax/zyprexa is something I will come back to, though, if the Geodon doesn't do it.
Posted by Jeroen on September 22, 2005, at 11:23:22
In reply to Re: Zyprexa v. Geodon? » katrina, posted by Cece on March 28, 2001, at 12:57:10
took it for 3 weeks and got TD from it lowest dosage
eye blinking, and uncontrollable eye movements, im now 1 year later and its improved but not gone, i feel a change in my nervous system, (neurological damage) too bad for me :(
This is the end of the thread.
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