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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dennis on February 11, 2001, at 15:42:53
It seems to me that taking antidepressants is a lot like taking small doses of amphetamines or cocaine. If you think about it, people who take ADs suffer the same problems as people useing these illegal drugs, and people useing ADs can feel euporic. All the drugs work in slightly different ways but they all affect the same chemicals in your brain, such as seritonin or dopamine for example. Users of ADs experience withdrawal after stoping the drug, they can build a tolerance to the drug needing higher doses and eventually experience AD poopout, a person useing ADs can have problems with proper mental functioning. I have also noticed that when a antidepressant works, the improved mood or happiness feels very artificial, not exactly the kind of happy feeling you would feel if you were drug free. It seems to me that drugs like amphetamines and other illegal drugs that we as a society have classified as dangerous and haveing no medical value are exactly like antidepressants drugs. It seems to me that SSRIs are not fixing a chemical imbalance in the brain, they are makeing a chemical imbalance in the brain which makes the person feel better. Thats the way I see it, I just thought I would share my view of ADs with you.
Posted by Sulpicia on February 11, 2001, at 18:56:19
In reply to antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 11, 2001, at 15:42:53
> It seems to me that taking antidepressants is a lot like taking small doses of amphetamines or cocaine. If you think about it, people who take ADs suffer the same problems as people useing these illegal drugs,
I disagree. There are numerous motivations for using illicits, like peer-pressure and experimentation, inter alia, and they are by far and away different from clinical depression. It is true that people who are depressed or who suffer from untreated ADD/HD are more likely to use drugs to self-medicate.
Interestingly, the drug of choice tends to be alcohol.
>and people useing ADs can feel euporic.I have been treated with ADs for several bouts of depression and I have never felt euphoria. People with undiagnosed bipolar disorders can be pushed into mania by some ADs. But my experience is simply that, my own.
>All the drugs work in slightly different ways but they all affect the same chemicals in your brain, such as seritonin or dopamine for example.
If you want to correct/help/alter mood, yes, you are limited by neurochemistry. I suppose you could make a case either for or against ECT.
>Users of ADs experience withdrawal after stoping the drug, they can build a tolerance to the drug needing higher doses and eventually experience AD poopout, a person useing ADs can have problems with proper mental functioning. I have also noticed that when a antidepressant works, the improved mood or happiness feels very artificial, not exactly the kind of happy feeling you would feel if you were drug free. It seems to me that drugs like amphetamines and other illegal drugs that we as a society have classified as dangerous and haveing no medical value are exactly like antidepressants drugs. It seems to me that SSRIs are not fixing a chemical imbalance in the brain, they are makeing a chemical imbalance in the brain which makes the person feel better. Thats the way I see it, I just thought I would share my view of ADs with you.
Keep in mind that the millions of people who are happy with their ADs tend not to post on forums such as this. I have never developed a tolerance to an AD or a loss of effectiveness. All drugs have side effects; prescription drugs are a cost/benefit calculation. Individual reaction varies. Problems w/cognitive functions that an individual is willing to put up with pale in comparison to problems of suicidal ideation or action. How do you define artificial? Are you speaking from experience here? This is not something I've ever experienced. Amphetamines are not illegal; they are a schedule II drug proven effective for the treatment of ADD/HD and narcolepsy; ritalin similarly so, and is now being looked at as an adjuvant in the elderly who are recovering from strokes. Pain management specialists regularly use stimulants to counteract the somnolence of opiate therapy for severe chronic pain.
We don't know exactly how ADs work and we definitely are not clear on how amphetamines help the symptoms of ADD/HD ergo no analogy can be logically sustained.
At abusively high dosages illicit users of amphetamines may/might/probably/could experience tolerance and addiction. IMHO the real difference between ADs and amphetamine is that ADs don't seem to alter the pleasure circuits in the brain -- yes, if they work you feel normal. After addiction, in some funny way you've altered the pleasure threshold and normal feels bad -- it's like everything has been re-set.I'm basing this on my experience with tofranil [3x] and paxil [1x and stopping now]and adderall for ADD. Clearly the makers of the new SSRIs have some explaining to do to the people who are experiencing tremendous difficulty getting off them.
Just one person's opinion.
Posted by bornunderabadsign on February 12, 2001, at 3:17:10
In reply to antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 11, 2001, at 15:42:53
>I have also noticed that when a antidepressant >works, the improved mood or happiness feels very >artificial, not exactly the kind of happy >feeling you would feel if you were drug free.
So does telling someone a secret that exposes yourself and gone awry, so does making a decision that you regret the next morning. Such an affect is most likely a result of cognition.
A solicitous happiness really isn't hapiness at all, is it?
>It seems to me that drugs like amphetamines and >other illegal drugs that we as a society have >classified as dangerous and haveing no medical >value are exactly like antidepressants drugs.Amphetamines do have an accepted medical value- first as a bronchal dilator (Benzedrine), among other things, and now primarily as treatment for ADD/ADHD and narcolepsy.
>It seems to me that SSRIs are not fixing a >chemical imbalance in the brain, they are >makeing a chemical imbalance in the brain which >makes the person feel better.
What of a woman who inherits a proclivity for breast cancer? Doesn't treatment of such a condition take away from who she really is? Such an artificial act as medical treatmenmt is surely unreasonable.
What of Parkinson's Disease- a disease than involves the same cells as ADD/ADHD, just further back in the midbrain. Surely employers must value such a phenomenon as being unable to move, we're all different after all.
I think medicine is an empowerment, of who we *are* behind the biology, so, quite opposite, I posit that malady without remedy is the abberant and artificial state.
Also, I think it is much more likely that we have developed a neurobiological mechanism that makes us feel quite certain that our conciousness is impermiable, and, if it sometimes is, that such action is the greatest of enormities.
In other words, part of the magic of the gears than turn in our mind is their ability to convince us, despite the obvious, that they are mere imagination.
Posted by Sulpicia on February 12, 2001, at 11:15:26
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by bornunderabadsign on February 12, 2001, at 3:17:10
> I like your thinking about thinking!
S.
Posted by MarkinBoston on February 12, 2001, at 13:21:47
In reply to antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 11, 2001, at 15:42:53
I agree with the drugs are drugs thinking. They all have benefits, side-effects, and risks. That doesn't translate into which ones are legal or illegal as much as politics. Cigarettes are highly addictive and kill over 400,000 Americans a year. GHB, pot, mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD are far less addictive and don't kill many people, yet are illegal. Pot and GHB even have medical value. GHB is up for FDA approval next month as an orphan drug.
> It seems to me that taking antidepressants is a lot like taking small doses of amphetamines or cocaine. If you think about it, people who take ADs suffer the same problems as people useing these illegal drugs, and people useing ADs can feel euporic.
I think many people using illegal drugs are self-medicating to treat a problem, bio-chemical, situational, or psychological. So, someone addicted to cocaine or meth may have a dopaminergic brain dysfunction for example. Meth is actually schedule II, but is the current DEA whipping boy.
> All the drugs work in slightly different ways but they all affect the same chemicals in your brain, such as seritonin or dopamine for example. Users of ADs experience withdrawal after stoping the drug, they can build a tolerance to the drug needing higher doses and eventually experience AD poopout, a person useing ADs can have problems with proper mental functioning.
There is some doublespeak. When Effexor raises blood pressure or temperature, its a side-effect. When cocaine or E does it, its risk of death. When someone drives a car under the influence of alchohol or an illegal drug, they are a criminal while other impairments are aften not prosecuted like: being tired and falling asleep, taking Benedryl, being old and cognitively impaired etc.
> I have also noticed that when a antidepressant works, the improved mood or happiness feels very artificial, not exactly the kind of happy feeling you would feel if you were drug free. It seems to me that drugs like amphetamines and other illegal drugs that we as a society have classified as dangerous and haveing no medical value are exactly like antidepressants drugs. It seems to me that SSRIs are not fixing a chemical imbalance in the brain, they are makeing a chemical imbalance in the brain which makes the person feel better.
ADs may create an artificial feeling for some, but its a closer approximation of normal than nothing at all or illegal drugs which have very different methods of action. ADs are unlike many illegal drugs in that more does not make you feel better, so the addictive aspect of taking more and more does not exist.
My personal beef with the AMA/DEA/FDA is about treatment for excess weight. Their mantra is: "Eat a blanced diet and exercise regularly." The problem is that the mantra is not working. Saying it louder or more often isn't slowing the problem.
Amphetimines are considered undesireable for weight management because they are short-term in nature. I don't disagree, but so is the mantra, with study after study showing 90% don't continue to diet and exercise, gaining the weight back. So, what's the difference? Both are temporary.
The AMA used to claim anabolic steroids didn't work. This was like big tobacco saying cigarettes wern't addictive. Now the tune is: OK, they work, but have very little application. One of the risk factors for heart disease is abdominal (visceral) fat. So, what best targets that? The mantra? No. Its anabolic steroids and Growth Hormone. Yet, the AMA reserves them only for those who are deficient, when even physiologic (within the range found in normal people) doses would combat the problem. The AMA simply atributes where you get fat to genes. More accurately, its hormone levels affected by genes, age, and adiposity level.
Posted by bornunderabadsign on February 12, 2001, at 15:53:21
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs » bornunderabadsign, posted by Sulpicia on February 12, 2001, at 11:15:26
> > I like your thinking about thinking!
> S.Thanks. I'm OCD. Big surprise, huh? :)
Posted by Mark H. on February 12, 2001, at 17:03:18
In reply to antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 11, 2001, at 15:42:53
I've said this before here, but it might bear repeating.
In the past, the "lower" classes self-medicated using alcohol, tobacco and illegal or marginal drugs; the "upper" class expected their doctors to make them feel better, regardless of the cause of their suffering; and the vast "middle" class was expected to suck it up and go to work unmedicated, no matter how they felt.
Today, millions of members of the lower and middle class are refusing to self-medicate (quitting alcohol, tobacco and completely avoiding illegal drugs) and refusing to accept the model that only the rich should be helped with serious medical problems that involve mood and thinking. Despite some problems, duly noted, I think this is a good thing.
It is tragic and bizarre that we are willing to spend billions of dollars warehousing self-medicators in prison rather than focusing on positive, medically supervised alternatives to illegal self-medication.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by San on February 13, 2001, at 20:00:36
In reply to antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 11, 2001, at 15:42:53
> It seems to me that taking antidepressants is a lot like taking small doses of amphetamines or cocaine. If you think about it, people who take ADs suffer the same problems as people useing these illegal drugs, and people useing ADs can feel euporic. All the drugs work in slightly different ways but they all affect the same chemicals in your brain, such as seritonin or dopamine for example. Users of ADs experience withdrawal after stoping the drug, they can build a tolerance to the drug needing higher doses and eventually experience AD poopout, a person useing ADs can have problems with proper mental functioning. I have also noticed that when a antidepressant works, the improved mood or happiness feels very artificial, not exactly the kind of happy feeling you would feel if you were drug free. It seems to me that drugs like amphetamines and other illegal drugs that we as a society have classified as dangerous and haveing no medical value are exactly like antidepressants drugs. It seems to me that SSRIs are not fixing a chemical imbalance in the brain, they are makeing a chemical imbalance in the brain which makes the person feel better. Thats the way I see it, I just thought I would share my view of ADs with you.
> Cut all the intellectual, philophical postulating on the "true nature of psychotropic medications." I really don't care whether my "happiness" is "artificial" or not. All I know is when I was severely depressed, I lost my job and could have lost everything I have. Now, because I take AD "drugs" and am able to get out of bed, go to work everyday, and earn a regualr paycheck instead of taking up space on the welfare rolls as mentally disabled. If I had to eat a pile of poo every morning to keep functioning in this world, I would do it! Thank God it's only a few pills at bedtime.---San
Posted by dennis on February 13, 2001, at 22:17:31
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by San on February 13, 2001, at 20:00:36
I am sorry if my post upset you. I wasnt really trying to say ADs are bad, I was just stateing my observations or my personal view on drugs and ADs, I take an AD myself and it helps me and I am glad that the drug is available for me to take. I was just trying to make a point, that these drugs are simply drugs, there not any better or worse than anything else, and there is two different ways to think about it, one, that these drugs are fixing a chemical imbalance, two that these drugs are simply drugs and make you feel happier if your lucky and are not fixing any chemical imbalance. I think the more logical choice is option #2. I just thought that most people believe option #1 to be correct, because they dont want to think that there normal depressed drug free state of being is how they were born to live, so there must be some chemical imbalance, I am just saying lets not kid ourselfs, however you feel when your drug free is your normal state of being how nature intended you to be, if you want to take drugs to change how you feel thats fine, there are some people out there that medicate themselves with heroin, and thats ok with me. Maybe you already understand this, maybe I am not saying anything you dont already know, I am just talking what I am thinking, you know it upsets me, the government regulates drugs that it feels are dangerous, marijuana helps me greatly in my life, it helps with my depression and anxiety, but since the government has made it schedule 1 illegal, I cannot grow it myself, I cannot smoke it, and it is extremely difficult for me to get, and I am upset, drugs are drugs, theres no difference between a legal and a illegal drug, there just all drugs, I can give you 100% guarantee that marijuana is far safer than say effexor, but nobody understands that. I am very disapointed in how our society views drugs. I am very young and I have much yet to learn.
Posted by dennis on February 14, 2001, at 0:26:41
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 13, 2001, at 22:17:31
well I guess I shouldnt say nobody understands, obviously there are some people that do understand, for some reason I feel bad about my last post, I feel it is redundant or that most people just wouldnt care about what I am saying, or would think it was dumb or something, well anyway I do not require any response so you can just ignore it if you want.
Posted by San on February 14, 2001, at 19:25:33
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 13, 2001, at 22:17:31
> I am sorry if my post upset you. I wasnt really trying to say ADs are bad, I was just stateing my observations or my personal view on drugs and ADs, I take an AD myself and it helps me and I am glad that the drug is available for me to take. I was just trying to make a point, that these drugs are simply drugs, there not any better or worse than anything else, and there is two different ways to think about it, one, that these drugs are fixing a chemical imbalance, two that these drugs are simply drugs and make you feel happier if your lucky and are not fixing any chemical imbalance. I think the more logical choice is option #2. I just thought that most people believe option #1 to be correct, because they dont want to think that there normal depressed drug free state of being is how they were born to live, so there must be some chemical imbalance, I am just saying lets not kid ourselfs, however you feel when your drug free is your normal state of being how nature intended you to be, if you want to take drugs to change how you feel thats fine, there are some people out there that medicate themselves with heroin, and thats ok with me. Maybe you already understand this, maybe I am not saying anything you dont already know, I am just talking what I am thinking, you know it upsets me, the government regulates drugs that it feels are dangerous, marijuana helps me greatly in my life, it helps with my depression and anxiety, but since the government has made it schedule 1 illegal, I cannot grow it myself, I cannot smoke it, and it is extremely difficult for me to get, and I am upset, drugs are drugs, theres no difference between a legal and a illegal drug, there just all drugs, I can give you 100% guarantee that marijuana is far safer than say effexor, but nobody understands that. I am very disapointed in how our society views drugs. I am very young and I have much yet to learn.
>Dennis, honey, are you a little manic????? San
Posted by dennis on February 14, 2001, at 20:47:23
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by San on February 14, 2001, at 19:25:33
> >Dennis, honey, are you a little manic????? SanI dont know? Am I? why dont you tell me whats wrong with me because I dont know, I know I have severe anxiety, I am pretty sure I have aspergers syndrome, I could just be crazy, what do you think, I feel bad about my last post, it makes me feel like an idiot.
Posted by Bryce on February 14, 2001, at 21:18:06
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 14, 2001, at 20:47:23
>
> I dont know? Am I? why dont you tell me whats wrong with me because I dont know, I know I have severe anxiety, I am pretty sure I have aspergers syndrome, I could just be crazy, what do you think, I feel bad about my last post, it makes me feel like an idiot.
Dennis,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of your posts. You're just giving an opinion. Nothing more nothing less. It's hard because your opinion happens to be the towards the minority on this board. However you made some good points and I agree about legalization. I don't smoke regularly but I do every know and then. It is a shame the amount of money we waste every year on it. It needs to be put towards drug education and therapy. This war on the drugs is really a war on the people like you who use it to self medicate for one reason or another. I laugh at the idea that we have a compassionate society when thousands of kids like you are locked away behind bars for 5-10 years on minor drug charges. These are bright kids who for one reason or another went down the wrong path. Well anyway I am rambling. Look everyone on this board has got one problem or another. It's not ok but that is the way it happens to be for now. Don't be so hard on yourself. You're young, you have a lot of options yet to try. The last thing you need is the added stress of your own criticism. We're all human here bud.Good luck.
P.S. Have you seen or are you seeing a doc? Just wondering.
Posted by San on February 14, 2001, at 21:32:01
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 14, 2001, at 20:47:23
>
> > >Dennis, honey, are you a little manic????? San
>
> I dont know? Am I? why dont you tell me whats wrong with me because I dont know, I know I have severe anxiety, I am pretty sure I have aspergers syndrome, I could just be crazy, what do you think, I feel bad about my last post, it makes me feel like an idiot.Dennis, ease up on yourself! You simply expressed what you were feeling and you have every right to do it. Nothing that you wrote should make you "feel like an idiot." Hang in there-San
Posted by dennis on February 14, 2001, at 22:49:25
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by Bryce on February 14, 2001, at 21:18:06
>
Look everyone on this board has got one problem or another. It's not ok but that is the way it happens to be for now. Don't be so hard on yourself. You're young, you have a lot of options yet to try. The last thing you need is the added stress of your own criticism. We're all human here bud.
>
> Good luck.
>
> P.S. Have you seen or are you seeing a doc? Just wondering.I appreiciate your post trying to make me feel better, thats nice of you, but no I am not seeing a doctor anymore because they could not help me, the doctors put me on prozac and then stuck me in the hospital when I didnt get better, then I got out of the hospital after a few months and still very depressed and I was still on prozac! Actually my depression started when I became extremely happy for the first time in my life when I was 13, its still a mystery to me what happened, its a long story so I will leave it out of this message, but anyway I have just completely lost interest in seeing a doctor because of my past bad experiences with them. My anxiety is getting very very bad right now, do you think I should go to a doctor and have the doc give me something for my anxiety? I think when we are through talking on this thread I dont think I am going to come here anymore, psycho babble is bad for my health. Obviously I am a very troubled young man, any advise you could give me might help.
Posted by MarkinBoston on February 15, 2001, at 11:28:15
In reply to Re: antidepressants are drugs, drugs are drugs, posted by dennis on February 14, 2001, at 22:49:25
>I have just completely lost interest in seeing a doctor because of my past bad experiences with them. My anxiety is getting very very bad right now, do you think I should go to a doctor and have the doc give me something for my anxiety?
YES, go to the doctor and get something for your anxiety! It won't fix everything, or might not help forever, but you will feel better and be more able to function. It will buy you time to find out more about what's going on and how to treat it. Many of the anxiety meds are benzo's which can be addictive, lose potency, and if you are on them too long might give you withdrawl problems. A doc will put you on a very short leash if you have a history of not being able to self-control how much drug you take, if they are willing to give you something at all. You must try to find another medication that works long term during the short time that its best to take a benzodiazapine (Xanax, Klonipin etc.).
FYI, I have a friend who used to smoke regularly, but she had to quit because she developed increased anxiety after almost 20 years of pot smoking, while another friend has no such problems and has been regularly getting high for 35 years. The same drug will do different things to different people (anti-depressants included!).
Nearly all of us have been frustrated with doctors and the whole medical system. Many go as far as educating themselves on the type of brain chemical imbalance they have as much or more as the psychiatrists they've seen, and some order medications overseas and self-treat.
Finding an effective medication for brain disorders is unfortunately much closer to illegal drug use than other medicines. Much closer to "Yo, dude. This sh*t is da' bomb! You gotta' try it!... don't feel nothin' yet? Here, have some more!" than "based on the lab results, there is an excess of X which is successfully treated by taking Y mg. of Z daily."
Most of us have tried numerous drugs looking for something that works well: "Doood, bummer that other sh*t sucked, I got new sh*t that'll fix you right up!"
There's a lot of drug possibilities out there that can help you. If pot helped you, then you know there exists at least one for you. Likely, some legal, pharmaceutical grade drug helps too and you don't have to worry about getting busted or ripped off. You don't need that anxiety.
This is the end of the thread.
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