![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
Well, about fifteen minutes ago I couldn't, um, rise to the occasion.
We tried and tried to get the ole jimmy up but to no avail. What the hell is wrong with me? I'm on Xanax 1.5mg, And amitryptyline 50mg.
I am going to get a completely new set of drugs because this just cannot happen anymore. Is there anything out there other than viagra? Are there any drugs that increase the sex drive to supplement AD's? I'm probabaly pissin in the wind with these questions but, damn is it EVER frustration, and embarasing.
Posted by JohnL on November 10, 2000, at 4:53:42
In reply to Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
> Well, about fifteen minutes ago I couldn't, um, rise to the occasion.
>
> We tried and tried to get the ole jimmy up but to no avail. What the hell is wrong with me? I'm on Xanax 1.5mg, And amitryptyline 50mg.
>
> I am going to get a completely new set of drugs because this just cannot happen anymore. Is there anything out there other than viagra? Are there any drugs that increase the sex drive to supplement AD's? I'm probabaly pissin in the wind with these questions but, damn is it EVER frustration, and embarasing.Buffet,
I have mixed emotions. On one hand I'm so sorry for your troubling side effects because I know how frustrating and demoralizing that can be. On the other hand, I'm so glad...because I'm not the only one!Yeah, me too. Dittos on everything you said. To have impotence with a drug that isn't working all that well is one thing. At least then you have yet one more good reason to try a different drug. But in my case, when I have impotence with drugs that work better than anything in ten years, it is extremely disturbing.
In your case it's impossible to tell what the guilty culprit is. It could be either the Xanax or the Amitriptyline. Or it could be that one or the other is fine, but the combination is guilty. No way to tell at this point. That makes the situation even more frustrating, not knowing which drug(s) is responsible.
My best guess would be Amitriptyline is the guilty one. But that by no means rules out Xanax. Either one or both could be guilty.
Remedies are few. Yohimbe herb can work, but comes with some difficult side effects of its own, including agitation, anxiety, insomnia. In my experience it has been successful in allowing sex to occur, but the erection is still subpar. And the side effects make the whole thing a dread. Viagra for me worked about the same. It allowed at least enough erection for sex, but not a full erection, but also came with its own side effects of deep agitation and overall uncomfortableness. It just made me dread the whole sexual experience. Too much work. Sex shouldn't be such a troubling effort.
You could try a drug holiday from either or both of the drugs, perhaps one at a time, to see which is guilty. But in all likelihood, it may be time to start the process of accepting that your current meds will have to be replaced with other choices. That's a tough decision. But you might have to start thinking about it. Actually, the next time you attempt sex and fail, the decision becomes real easy. Sad it has to be this way. I can only tell you, you aren't alone. I hear ya. All I can say is, "Damn!". Damn, damn, damn!
John
Posted by JohnL on November 10, 2000, at 4:55:59
In reply to Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
I was just thinking. Do you realize a prisoner locked up in solitary confinement has a better sex life than you and me? Geez.
John
Posted by Sassy on November 10, 2000, at 17:56:07
In reply to Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
> Well, about fifteen minutes ago I couldn't, um, rise to the occasion.
>
> We tried and tried to get the ole jimmy up but to no avail. What the hell is wrong with me? I'm on Xanax 1.5mg, And amitryptyline 50mg.
>
> I am going to get a completely new set of drugs because this just cannot happen anymore. Is there anything out there other than viagra? Are there any drugs that increase the sex drive to supplement AD's? I'm probabaly pissin in the wind with these questions but, damn is it EVER frustration, and embarasing.Hi Buffet,
I'm not a man, a doctor or a pharmacist, and I
certainly don't want to lead you in the wrong
direction.I heard remeron counteracts this problem and
was wondering if you might be able to drop
the xanax and take the remeron at night.You will have to go through a week or two
of adjusting to the medicine, but one thing for
sure, you won't experience any anxiety.You might call you pdoc and ask for some samples.
I don't know how this mixes with your other
med.The guy at the store was telling me that exilir
ginseng root works like viagra. This may aggravate you.Sassy
Posted by stjames on November 10, 2000, at 20:10:46
In reply to Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
Hmmm.....
1) IF it is a one time thing it is normal, it does
happen to men. Trust me, I'm gay, I should know about men.2) If it continues either or both of your meds are well known to cause this.
James
Posted by Cindy W on November 10, 2000, at 20:44:37
In reply to Re: Somewhat PG-13..., posted by stjames on November 10, 2000, at 20:10:46
> Hmmm.....
>
> 1) IF it is a one time thing it is normal, it does
> happen to men. Trust me, I'm gay, I should know about men.
>
> 2) If it continues either or both of your meds are well known to cause this.
>
> JamesBuffet, James is right...occasional failure to rise to the occasion at times is completely normal (from fatigue, overwork, whatever). If it keeps recurring, you might want to discontinue then reintroduce the meds one at a time...SSRI's are famous for this side effect, and from personal experience, I've found that changing to another med is the only way to counteract this, for me (tried Prozac, Luvox, Zoloft; only Serzone and Effexor-XR didn't shut me down).--Cindy W
Posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 23:58:10
In reply to Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
Thanks for the answers and support. I've tried yohimbe before but to no avail. The thing that worries me is I just got married, my sex drive is very low and practically have to force myself to get aroused. I'm 25, my wife is very attractive (to me), and I used to be able to get going in about 3 seconds flat... AHGHHHHHHHH!!!
Someone tell me more about remeron. I have had success with prozac and a little with zoloft, but they have pooped out and I have to take a very HIGH dose to get the effects. I need something with some gusto, because I'm treatment resistant. But I need my sex life back and soon or I'm going to lose it.
Prisoners have better sex lives?? ugh, thats a scary thought johnl, : )
Buffet
Posted by stjames on November 13, 2000, at 1:51:50
In reply to Re: Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 23:58:10
You might try cutting the Xanax the day of the, ah, activities.
Viagra would be a possibility.james
Posted by MarkinBoston on November 15, 2000, at 15:35:24
In reply to Somewhat PG-13..., posted by Buffet on November 10, 2000, at 0:21:02
Since your drive and performance are both affected, have your endocrine levels checked. Depression will tend to raise cortisol levels and lower testosterone levels. Tell your primary MD that your libido has declined and you've had some instances of functional difficulties, or notice an absense of "morning wood". The first screening check is for total testosterone. This doesn't really mean a whole lot, especially since the "normal" scale includes men from 18-80 years old, and while the lab may say you're normal, when its age corrected, you could be low. There are no age correction stats out there, so apply reason when interpreting results.
If the numbers are out of range, then a more telling set of tests are done, including: total testosterone, free testosterone, LH, FSH, E2 (estradiol), cortisol, and prolactin. Possibly a few more. This is getting out of range for primary care physician and you'll probably get a referral to an endocrinologist - hopefully one not specialising in diabetes or women's health, and having experience in Cushing's syndrome and male hormone replacement therapy. My first endo said my testosterone was low because I was depressed and to go see a pdoc, while its also true that low testosterone can cause depression. In either case, cause or symptom, managing testosterone and estradiol is easy to do and makes you feel better. Managing cortisol is hard to do and there are lots of side effects from those drugs that have to be managed with others. Email me if you want more info.
Posted by Buffet on November 16, 2000, at 0:05:46
In reply to get a testosterone level check, posted by MarkinBoston on November 15, 2000, at 15:35:24
> Since your drive and performance are both affected, have your endocrine levels checked. Depression will tend to raise cortisol levels and lower testosterone levels. Tell your primary MD that your libido has declined and you've had some instances of functional difficulties, or notice an absense of "morning wood". The first screening check is for total testosterone. This doesn't really mean a whole lot, especially since the "normal" scale includes men from 18-80 years old, and while the lab may say you're normal, when its age corrected, you could be low. There are no age correction stats out there, so apply reason when interpreting results.
>
> If the numbers are out of range, then a more telling set of tests are done, including: total testosterone, free testosterone, LH, FSH, E2 (estradiol), cortisol, and prolactin. Possibly a few more. This is getting out of range for primary care physician and you'll probably get a referral to an endocrinologist - hopefully one not specialising in diabetes or women's health, and having experience in Cushing's syndrome and male hormone replacement therapy. My first endo said my testosterone was low because I was depressed and to go see a pdoc, while its also true that low testosterone can cause depression. In either case, cause or symptom, managing testosterone and estradiol is easy to do and makes you feel better. Managing cortisol is hard to do and there are lots of side effects from those drugs that have to be managed with others. Email me if you want more info.
-------I will definitely keep this in mind if they continue and/or get worse after I change my meds around. I'm going in to a p'doc next week (haven't been to one in four years), and have only used a few regular doc's for treatment. Hopefully, he will know what is best and maybe a med change could prove beneficial.
The 'wood' and desire situation fluctuates. Two days ago, not a problem at all. Tonight, no sex drive! I didn't do anything different with the meds. Also, if I don't take the xanax, I'm too anxious, and when I do take it it affects my performance a little, but not a lot.
Maybe it could have something to do with the hormones. Maybe my heavy use of GHB last year got everything out of wack. Or, maybe it's the elections, who the hell knows. But, if I don't find relief after the p'doc I'm looking at doing some major blood work. Thanks for the advice yall.
Buffet
Posted by Maniz on November 16, 2000, at 12:50:14
In reply to get a testosterone level check, posted by MarkinBoston on November 15, 2000, at 15:35:24
One of the supposed modes of action of St. John´s Wort is that it acts by modulating the levels of corticotrophin releasing factor by its direct action on interleukin 6 (IL-6).
"Maybe" SWJ "could" modulate cortisol.
DHEA is used for depression, but I can not remeber if it has any effect (lowering) on cortisol.
>Managing cortisol is hard to do and there are >lots of side effects from those drugs that have >to be managed with others. Email me if you want >more info.
Posted by MarkinBoston on November 16, 2000, at 14:46:35
In reply to SJWort CRF Re: get a testosterone level check » MarkinBoston, posted by Maniz on November 16, 2000, at 12:50:14
> One of the supposed modes of action of St. John´s Wort is that it acts by modulating the levels of corticotrophin releasing factor by its direct action on interleukin 6 (IL-6).
>
> "Maybe" SWJ "could" modulate cortisol.
>
> DHEA is used for depression, but I can not remeber if it has any effect (lowering) on cortisol.Lowering cortisol is a good thing and will indirectly restore testosterone levels - survival drive (cortisol) takes precidence over sex drive (testosterone).
Yeah, there are studies showing that DHEA and increased testosterone levels do reduce depression in men. The downside is that it can be a bumpy ride. Supplimenting testosterone or any of its over the counter precursors like DHEA will result in additional aromatization of testosterone into estrogens which is associated with heightened cortisol response to stress (ie panic), weepiness, low self worth, depression, and other PMS-like symptoms. Ideally, you want to take a small dose of an anti-aromatse like Arimidex to block most of the conversion of testosterone into estrogen. Men need some estrogen to maintain healthy HDL (good) cholesterol levels so too much Arimidex isn't good either. Have the blood levels checked before and during treatment. Three readings are often called for because labs screw up (pick a lab and stick with it because there are differences between them) and your own variances. Time of day matters too, with the highest levels being in the morning for most hormones, and midnight being the lowest. Testosterone will be about 30% lower at 4pm than 8am, so if your blood draw is in the morning, you could be "low-normal", while if it were at 4:30PM, you'd be below normal and less chance that the HMO would question need for treatment.
My experience with taking a prohormone suppliment with chrysin (an anti-aromatase suppliment) was that I felt no different after one day, and really depressed on the second. I stopped taking them then, and after the third day, I was back to normal. My guess was the pro-hormone worked and the chrysin didn't do its part. I didn't run out for a blood test to see for sure, much less feeling like even wanting to get out of bed or the house.
What I've been on for the last 6-8 weeks has been 5g Androgel bid (1% testosterone gel) delivering 10mg/day + 20mg Ritalin 1x morning + 100mg Serzone @6-8pm + 1 Dyazide AM (diuretic anti-hypertensive). My t went from 250 to 875 and E2 went from 55 to 110. My E2 (estrodiol) was high-normal to begin with and too high now, which I'm going to try again to convince my MD to treat with Arimidex (1/2 tab EOD). I feel better - good enough to return to the gym, have put on muscle, and lost 20 lbs too. Despite the AMA having once claimed that anabolic steroids don't increase muscle mass, they were wrong. No more sexual difficulties other than low libido, which is how I will present to my MD in hopes of justifying getting my E2 down into the normal range, with a hint of also reducing the risk of gynomastia. Finding an endocrinologist that knows mens' health and psyc interactions seems as hard as finding a Dr. Jensen - near impossible and frustrating.
Posted by Maniz on November 16, 2000, at 15:43:37
In reply to Re: SJWort CRF Re: get a testosterone level check » Maniz, posted by MarkinBoston on November 16, 2000, at 14:46:35
I have seen publicity regarding indole-3-carbinol to protect from "bad" estrogen (16-alpha-hydroxyestrone.
www-life-enhancement.com (and other) is marketing a product (Maleratio) containing indole-3-carbinol, diindolylmethane, ascorbigen, chrysin, etc..
What do you think of indole-3-carbinol ?
Will it be better to try to avoid testosterone-estrogen conversion than supplementing tetosterone?
Thanks
>My E2 (estrodiol) was high-normal to begin with and too high now, which I'm going to try again to convince my MD to treat with Arimidex (1/2 tab EOD). I feel better - good enough to return to the gym, have put on muscle, and lost 20 lbs too. Despite the AMA having once claimed that anabolic steroids don't increase muscle mass, they were wrong. No more sexual difficulties other than low libido, which is how I will present to my MD in hopes of justifying getting my E2 down into the normal range, with a hint of also reducing the risk of gynomastia. Finding an endocrinologist that knows mens' health and psyc interactions seems as hard as finding a Dr. Jensen - near impossible and frustrating.
Posted by MarkinBoston on November 17, 2000, at 11:02:44
In reply to Re: SJWort CRF Re: get a testosterone level check » MarkinBoston, posted by Maniz on November 16, 2000, at 15:43:37
First, I thought blocking testosterone aromatase conversion to estrogens made the most sense, since my LH level was low, my E2 high, and I have excess fat. In older men, gonad function declines and LH tends to be high, signaling the gonads to produce more testosterone - primary hypogonadism.
Since I was able to show (borderline) clinical need for treatment, I went the MD route with my HMO paying most of the costs. MDs just want to go the direct route and suppliment T(estosterone) and not anything fancy where they would have to catch up on reading, risk HMO payment rejection, a malpractice lawsuit, or spend more than the allocated 15 minutes for an office visit.
OK, so, its not optimal, but its a step in the right direction that will still improve my physical health, mood, energy, and motivation. And it has. Yeah, I'd lose fat quicker if my E2 was in check, but I'm still making progress with the maximum theraputic dose of Androgel. I would not be able to take that dose if I was not on blood pressure medication - it was essential. The first attempt, without it, I was at stage II hypertension and could see my arteries throbbing, so be sure to monitor bp.
If I had just taken an aromatase blocker, I'd probably have a lower testosterone level and lower E2 level and about the same progress, as a guess. I might not have needed the bp med either.
There is one good byproduct of testosterone, DHT, and I don't know if any of those agents block it. I don't want to go bald, so a reasonable level is best.
Suboptimal has still been OK. One study on giving steroids to men showed that exercise+ steroids produced the best results, 2nd was steroids and no exercise, 3rd was exercise and no steroids, and the no steroids / no exercise group worsened their lean/adipose tissue balance.
By the way, when I got my Androgel refill, I asked the pharmacist if he had seen men getting scripted for Arimidex, Clomid, or Tamoxifen, and he said he had seen a few. Unfortunately, they were busy and I couldn't ask which doctors might have written those scripts. Next time I see him I will, and hopefully he can tell me, and I can think about switching to that doctor.
Posted by Maniz on November 17, 2000, at 20:13:00
In reply to blocking T - E2 conversion, posted by MarkinBoston on November 17, 2000, at 11:02:44
Hi,
Thanks for the details.
I am afraid you are wrong here. In fact baldness is caused by testosterone to DHT conversion. The fact that I have hair problems made me think I can have testosterone problems. The drug finasteride blocks testosterone-DHT conversion, but I am not sure if I want to take it due to possible side effects (ginecomastia, impotence, although rare).
Now there is another theory for prostate and baldness problems involving estrogens. I think the mentioned carbinol estrogen regulators are much safer than finasteride and maybe effective too.
> There is one good byproduct of testosterone, DHT, and I don't know if any of those agents block it. I don't want to go bald, so a reasonable level is best.
Posted by JohnB on November 17, 2000, at 22:22:28
In reply to Re: blocking T - E2 conversion » MarkinBoston, posted by Maniz on November 17, 2000, at 20:13:00
Just saw something in the health-food store called Estro-Block For Men containing "calcium d-glucarate and male specific herbs"
Posted by stjames on November 18, 2000, at 1:17:08
In reply to get a testosterone level check, posted by MarkinBoston on November 15, 2000, at 15:35:24
> Since your drive and performance are both affected, have your endocrine levels checked. Depression will tend to raise cortisol levels and lower testosterone levels. Tell your primary MD that your libido has declined and you've had some instances of functional difficulties, or notice an absense of "morning wood".
The first screening check is for total testosterone. This doesn't really mean a whole lot, especially since the "normal" scale includes men from 18-80 years old, and while the lab may say you're normal, when its age corrected, you could be low.James here.....
This conserns me because it seems you are advocating making up stuff
to get testosterone. Any androgen carries the risk of cancer, this is clear.
I suspect we will pay the price in years to come; we are all to
willing to use harmones quite freely in infertility. AFAIK there
is not testosterone injection that comes close to the even dosing
the body can produce. There is quite a peak in the fist week after
an injection.I would be more comfortable if you had gone to an Endo and gotten a
learned opinon, without inflating symptoms. Supplementing androgens
can have significant negative effects, long term. I think you mentioned this,
I don't think we have really good studies on what is the normal range of Testosterone
throughout a man life, and how signicacant a devation from norm makes good risk/benifit ratio.I would be intrested in you opinions on this.
james
Posted by MarkinBoston on November 20, 2000, at 15:43:28
In reply to Re: blocking T - E2 conversion » MarkinBoston, posted by Maniz on November 17, 2000, at 20:13:00
I'm not sure in what respect I was in error. DHT is far more anabolic and androgenic than testosterone, benefitting lean tissue/bone growth and sexual function more strongly, but too much exagerates male pattern baldness and prostrate growth. So, there's too little, good, and too much. There's no black or white.
I think finasteride is available in shampoo form, topically blocking receptors. Most of the anti-fungal drugs like (ketoconizole)it a hepatoxic.
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the details.
>
> I am afraid you are wrong here. In fact baldness is caused by testosterone to DHT conversion. The fact that I have hair problems made me think I can have testosterone problems. The drug finasteride blocks testosterone-DHT conversion, but I am not sure if I want to take it due to possible side effects (ginecomastia, impotence, although rare).
>
> Now there is another theory for prostate and baldness problems involving estrogens. I think the mentioned carbinol estrogen regulators are much safer than finasteride and maybe effective too.
>
>
> > There is one good byproduct of testosterone, DHT, and I don't know if any of those agents block it. I don't want to go bald, so a reasonable level is best.
Posted by MarkinBoston on November 20, 2000, at 17:05:45
In reply to Re: get a testosterone level check, posted by stjames on November 18, 2000, at 1:17:08
If one is having symptoms of testosterone deficiency, get your level checked. Its just as if one had symptoms of anemia. Simple blood test.
Testosterone and estrogen will both cause some types of cancer to grow faster. Being alive puts you at risk for getting cancer. Some of the prostrate cancer/enlargement drugs block androgens while some of the breast cancer drugs block estrogens. If you have cancer, talk to your oncologist before any hormone replacement therapy.
Chances are good sexual function and healthy lean to adipose tissue ratios are not your primary concern.Androderm and testoderm do resemble normal daily serum levels. Shots absolutely not, and Androgel is nearly constant.
I don't know how you twisted what I said into saying to make stuff up to get testosterone. You have to get lots of blood tests on not just testosterone, but free T, FSH, LH, E2, lipids, cortisol, prolactin, and others to better understand what is going on, and then a PSA level and rectal palpitation to screen for prostrate cancer. After starting, you have to measure T and E2 for correct dosing. You don't "make up" all those blood test values.
I've seen a couple endos, both confirming low t.
No, there are no good studies on what healthy levels of testosterone are for men by age. Men's health is where women's health was 40 years ago.
Complicating matters is the DEA/FDA which has created a propaganda war against androgens. Knowledge and information are enemies of bad policy, so there isn't funding for studies.
There is no doubt that athletes who increase their androgen levels to 10x or 100x physiologic levels for long periods of time and don't manage blood pressure, estrogen level, or discontinuation will experience the undesirable side effects the DEA uses to scare people away from anabolic steroid use.
I'm not easily frightened by side effects of drugs - I'm used to them. Most of the psyc meds I've taken at one time or another have had some undesirable side effects. Pdocs know this and half the game is managing dosages, administration times, and adding other meds to counteract side effects. Steroids, correctly dosed, with management of side effects have positive benefits if you show symptoms that would benefit from their use. If you have symptoms of depression, an antidepressant might help you. If you have symptoms of hypogonadism, androgens might help you. That's all.
One last thing: Viagra. Over-hyped and over used. Its to treat blood flow problems. It doesn't address endocrine imbalances. The FDA/DEA will approve drugs like this more easily because it doesn't threaten their propaganda war on steroids. Its easy money for the drug company because any MD can write a script for it and send the patient on his way. No extensive blood work needed, no endo consult, no bruised male egos if t is low. Most wives have enough challenge getting their husbands to see a doctor for anything, never mind all the stigma of not being "man enough" in bed - the guy doesn't want to see it printed on a lab report.
Until more men are proactive in demanding better treatment for reproductive health like women do, the situation won't improve. If you're having problems, be man enough to tell your doctor.
> This conserns me because it seems you are advocating making up stuff
> to get testosterone. Any androgen carries the risk of cancer, this is clear.
> I suspect we will pay the price in years to come; we are all to
> willing to use harmones quite freely in infertility. AFAIK there
> is not testosterone injection that comes close to the even dosing
> the body can produce. There is quite a peak in the fist week after
> an injection.
>
> I would be more comfortable if you had gone to an Endo and gotten a
> learned opinon, without inflating symptoms. Supplementing androgens
> can have significant negative effects, long term. I think you mentioned this,
> I don't think we have really good studies on what is the normal range of Testosterone
> throughout a man life, and how signicacant a devation from norm makes good risk/benifit ratio.
>
> I would be intrested in you opinions on this.
>
> james
Posted by Maniz on November 20, 2000, at 18:59:34
In reply to Re: blocking T - E2 conversion » Maniz, posted by MarkinBoston on November 20, 2000, at 15:43:28
Hi and sorry this is offtopic
> I'm not sure in what respect I was in error.
Just that I was focusing in balding
>DHT is far more anabolic and androgenic than testosterone, benefitting lean tissue/bone growth and sexual function more strongly, but too much exagerates male pattern baldness and prostrate growth. So, there's too little, good, and too much. There's no black or white.
>
> I think finasteride is available in shampoo form, topically blocking receptors.I could not find it.
Sure I will prefer to use it as shampoo (and be safe from side effects, one I forgot is fetal problems)
> Most of the anti-fungal drugs like (ketoconizole)it a hepatoxic.
this one yes, ketoconazole comes as shampoo.
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thanks for the details.
> >
> > I am afraid you are wrong here. In fact baldness is caused by testosterone to DHT conversion. The fact that I have hair problems made me think I can have testosterone problems. The drug finasteride blocks testosterone-DHT conversion, but I am not sure if I want to take it due to possible side effects (ginecomastia, impotence, although rare).
> >
> > Now there is another theory for prostate and baldness problems involving estrogens. I think the mentioned carbinol estrogen regulators are much safer than finasteride and maybe effective too.
> >
> >
> > > There is one good byproduct of testosterone, DHT, and I don't know if any of those agents block it. I don't want to go bald, so a reasonable level is best.
Posted by SLS on November 20, 2000, at 20:54:42
In reply to Re: get a testosterone level check » stjames, posted by MarkinBoston on November 20, 2000, at 17:05:45
What about using HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin)?
I think chronic testosterone administration allows for testicular atrophy. Not sure.
- Scott
> If one is having symptoms of testosterone deficiency, get your level checked. Its just as if one had symptoms of anemia. Simple blood test.
>
> Testosterone and estrogen will both cause some types of cancer to grow faster. Being alive puts you at risk for getting cancer. Some of the prostrate cancer/enlargement drugs block androgens while some of the breast cancer drugs block estrogens. If you have cancer, talk to your oncologist before any hormone replacement therapy.
> Chances are good sexual function and healthy lean to adipose tissue ratios are not your primary concern.
>
> Androderm and testoderm do resemble normal daily serum levels. Shots absolutely not, and Androgel is nearly constant.
>
> I don't know how you twisted what I said into saying to make stuff up to get testosterone. You have to get lots of blood tests on not just testosterone, but free T, FSH, LH, E2, lipids, cortisol, prolactin, and others to better understand what is going on, and then a PSA level and rectal palpitation to screen for prostrate cancer. After starting, you have to measure T and E2 for correct dosing. You don't "make up" all those blood test values.
>
> I've seen a couple endos, both confirming low t.
>
> No, there are no good studies on what healthy levels of testosterone are for men by age. Men's health is where women's health was 40 years ago.
>
> Complicating matters is the DEA/FDA which has created a propaganda war against androgens. Knowledge and information are enemies of bad policy, so there isn't funding for studies.
>
> There is no doubt that athletes who increase their androgen levels to 10x or 100x physiologic levels for long periods of time and don't manage blood pressure, estrogen level, or discontinuation will experience the undesirable side effects the DEA uses to scare people away from anabolic steroid use.
>
> I'm not easily frightened by side effects of drugs - I'm used to them. Most of the psyc meds I've taken at one time or another have had some undesirable side effects. Pdocs know this and half the game is managing dosages, administration times, and adding other meds to counteract side effects. Steroids, correctly dosed, with management of side effects have positive benefits if you show symptoms that would benefit from their use. If you have symptoms of depression, an antidepressant might help you. If you have symptoms of hypogonadism, androgens might help you. That's all.
>
> One last thing: Viagra. Over-hyped and over used. Its to treat blood flow problems. It doesn't address endocrine imbalances. The FDA/DEA will approve drugs like this more easily because it doesn't threaten their propaganda war on steroids. Its easy money for the drug company because any MD can write a script for it and send the patient on his way. No extensive blood work needed, no endo consult, no bruised male egos if t is low. Most wives have enough challenge getting their husbands to see a doctor for anything, never mind all the stigma of not being "man enough" in bed - the guy doesn't want to see it printed on a lab report.
>
> Until more men are proactive in demanding better treatment for reproductive health like women do, the situation won't improve. If you're having problems, be man enough to tell your doctor.
>
>
> > This conserns me because it seems you are advocating making up stuff
> > to get testosterone. Any androgen carries the risk of cancer, this is clear.
> > I suspect we will pay the price in years to come; we are all to
> > willing to use harmones quite freely in infertility. AFAIK there
> > is not testosterone injection that comes close to the even dosing
> > the body can produce. There is quite a peak in the fist week after
> > an injection.
> >
> > I would be more comfortable if you had gone to an Endo and gotten a
> > learned opinon, without inflating symptoms. Supplementing androgens
> > can have significant negative effects, long term. I think you mentioned this,
> > I don't think we have really good studies on what is the normal range of Testosterone
> > throughout a man life, and how signicacant a devation from norm makes good risk/benifit ratio.
> >
> > I would be intrested in you opinions on this.
> >
> > james
Posted by MarkinBoston on November 21, 2000, at 16:43:00
In reply to Re: get a testosterone level check, posted by SLS on November 20, 2000, at 20:54:42
> What about using HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin)?
>
> I think chronic testosterone administration allows for testicular atrophy. Not sure.
>
> - ScottDepends. If LH is high, then the gonads arn't producing enough, so supplimenting would up the t, the pituitary would sense this and lower LH accordingly. If LH remains in a normal range, then the gonads will continue to be exercised. If LH goes below normal, then the gonads won't be trying to produce testosterone. Note the feedback system usually responds within 15 minutes, so values are up and down in addition to a daily rhythm.
For most, non-elderly men, chronic testosterone supplimentation will result in atrophy. One reason athletes "cycle" on and off steroids, another is to reset the desensitization of receptors to anabolic hormones - much like we would become desensitized to benzos or dopamine agonists.
HCG seems only to be used for boys with delayed puberty and not many shots of it. Most of these hormones have short half-lives and only athletes are determined enough to put up with daily IM injections. Older folks with money who want to stay young will also inject daily, usually with Human Growth Hormone.
Clomid also stimulates testosterone production and is used by athletes when they end a cycle - it helps start up their own production again when they withdraw supplimentation. The FDA approved use is for women wishing fertility. It ups FSH levels, and increases sperm counts in men besides stimulating egg production in women.
This is the end of the thread.
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