![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 48. Go back in thread:
Posted by laural on October 20, 2000, at 1:43:48
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by Sharon J. on October 19, 2000, at 23:39:20
hi--
after years of almost blatent denial, i finally started researching my illness. i told my mother this and it really seemed to make her happy. i must admit, i feel a strong compulsion to run to the computer everytime i wake up to see what's new, but i think it may be for a few reasons 1) human contact of any form--i can't of course speak for the rest but i for one have been very ugly in the past and lost many of my friends, in addition to rejecting some friends due to their apathy or unacceptance of my illness 2) human contact and support by those who really understand maybe not ME but my illness 3) information information information
I think everything that was said is relevant--support groups sometimes do take a lot out of your time but as noa said, as long as its not interfering
i'm new too and i think part of my heavy usage of this site is because my need for it hasn't yet been tempered
as far as chronic illness--yeah i guess that's right, there is no cure right now, and anybody with a chronic illness i think needs to have this kind of support--my mom told me she went to a conference with two ladies from her work and they both have diabetes. she said over dinner and at the hotel room that is ALL they talked about with each other. : )
Posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 2:12:23
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
Glyn,
Welcome to Babble. I'm sure your insights will be appreciated, and pretty soon you may be an "expert" as well. I respond to posts and usually end up stepping in it again, and opening my big mouth and insulting someone, so I hope people are feeling generous.In terms of a big picture, the prime commonality, is that we all have some form of psych condition, and most of us are interested in alleviating its effects via medication, and/or therapy.
Many of us become involved in doing extensive research on meds, and asking questions, because we have had bad experiences or we find out our pdocs don't know much. (I have trouble with the description of "morbid fascination" -- If I had cancer or an immune disorder for which there were no hard and fast "cures" I would be hard at work learning as much as I could about that also.) Other people with more complex conditions to deal with, have to do a lot more work, and log more hours, than someone with depression alone. Maybe it's just me, but I'd want a hobby that's a lot more fun.
I agree that many people here are well educated (via institutions or self-learning) and articulate, and a pleasure to read.
As for the "alarming" number of "confessions" (I am feeling humor here, not being caustic) about doing illegal drugs, my guess would be that if we infer causation, many more people would be posting here. Probably (IMHO) the correlation is self-medicating the psych condition, especially if it occurred early in life.
Another commonality I see is the willingness of people to help each other. Not all people help with all problems presented, but I think there are very few posts on suicide, or bad med experiences that go unanswered. And, usually nobody hesitates to say "get thee to the ER" if something appears to be really wrong.
As for a cure, would that there was one! I am pretty sure I will be on meds for life. I am trying now to find a combo that will work. I may be looking for another combo in a year. The psych meds world is changing every day, with new meds, and new hope. So, if I don't stay on top of what is happening, I am at a real disadvantage.
Good luck to you! You didn't indicate your "condition", but good luck if you are looking for meds to help, and I think you will like this site.
Shar
Posted by JohnL on October 20, 2000, at 6:14:27
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
GLYN,
I think your observations are right on. Some of the finest, smartest, and most caring people are right here. People I've never even seen! Why don't I meet these kinds of articulate intelligent people in real life? I must be walking among them everyday and just don't realize, I guess. Perhaps it takes a safe board like this for people to open up and show their true colors.One point I must state my opinion on. That is, cures do exist. I've seen plenty of people, even right here at this board populated with the toughest cases, get totally cured. A total cure is simply correcting whatever chemistry is awry causing the symptoms.
What makes finding a cure so difficult I think is the way we go about it. I would think for example that we need to first identify through a series of steps what chemistry is underlyiing the patient's symptoms, so we will narrow down our choices as to how to correct that chemistry. For example, is this patient's symptoms dopamine related? Serotonin? Norepinephrine? None of the above, but instead electrical instability? Chemical instability? Thyroid, even if blood tests are within range? We don't try to figure out what system in the brain is malfunctioning. Instead, we go with generally accepted principles of psychiatry which basically endorse trying this drug first, that one second, maybe add on this one or that one, etc. And hopefully through all this guessing we will stumble onto something that works. I believed in this way for many years. But one day I asked myself, why don't they try to figure out what the real problem is? I mean, for example, with the popularity of SSRIs, you can't possibly try to convince me that all these people have low serotonin. No way. That's only a tiny piece of the pie. There's a lot more to it than that.
When the real root cause is identified and then corrected, total cure is available. Of course, it will take longterm pharmacotherapy to maintain that cure. But we first have to identify what system in the brain is malfunctioning. There is a series of logical steps we can take to do that. Unfortunately, I know of only 6 doctors in the entire country that use these steps.
John
Posted by Snowie on October 20, 2000, at 7:14:25
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
Glyn,
If you will allow me to reply after your paragraphs, it will enable me to keep better track of my thoughts:
> We are all morbidly fascinated with our problems so much so that they appear to be as much a hobby as they are a burden - no offence intended as I am the worst for this.
Not really for me. I rarely ask advice here, and if I do it's probably because I'm pretty desperate. The nature of my problems make it difficult for me to ask for help on most Boards, possibly for fear of risking rejection, although I worry about it less and less these days. Over the years I've read a lot, have experienced different drugs first-hand, and am happy to share this info.
> We are all extremely intelligent, articulate, informed and, I would guess, fairly high achievers or gross under achievers (I myself have three degrees - BA, MSC, PhD - and work as an academic - thanks mainly due to my consistently manic attributes). I am consistently amazed by the quality and high level of writing which I see on this site - far more sophisticated in most than many of my MSc students.Seems that way. Most of us pride ourselves in our ability to communicate through the written word.
> Almost all of you (I dont include myself in this just yet) are more informed about our meds than most docs are.
This is definitely true. I'm seeing a new pdoc, and when he asked me to describe my problems, I did so using terminology that I do here. He then asked me to describe my problems in normal terms, but I found that I couldn't. These words (such as "agoraphobia") have become a part of my normal vocabulary since becoming informed.
> An alarming number of us confess to have taken some kind of illegal drug in the past (Cannabis, LSD etc). The old causation correlation debate applies here though and because there appears to be a relationship it is not easy to say if one caused the other.
Sorry ... not me. I never did anything.
> Despite all of our travailing, very few of us seem to have been "cured" or feel satisified by the meds we are taking.I don't think the meds cure us, since if we were cured we wouldn't need the meds. I think the meds control our condition, which is different from being cured.
> All of these are just my immediate observations and I'd love to know if anybody with more experience of this site has any more. There might well be some illuminating information about our conditions (which also all seem to share some common characteristics)within the "bigger picture". What do you think? Feel free to call me a charlatan,
>
> One thing I know for sure is I am extremely grateful for you all.
>
> GlynGreat insight, Glyn. Isn't it amazing what you can learn by reading and observing?
Snowie
Posted by laural on October 20, 2000, at 7:18:22
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by JohnL on October 20, 2000, at 6:14:27
But we first have to identify what system in the brain is malfunctioning. There is a series of logical steps we can take to do that. Unfortunately, I know of only 6 doctors in the entire country that use these steps.
> JohnJohn! PLEASE tell me who these doctors are! laural
Posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 7:21:59
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL » GLYN, posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 2:12:23
Thanks for all of the responses which I found fascinating. I of course intended no offence (though I see you are all also the type to not take offence easily) by stating that there
appeared to be a degree of introspective fascination which we all share. What I wonder about is whether this is indeed a response or in fact a personality trait which we all share and is perhaps more causative - its a tentative conclusion and so I dont add much credence to it - but hear me out (sorry if I ramble as these meds are slowing me mentally).Also,as I said, so many of the people on this site strike me as not only very well informed but remarkably intelligent (whatever that is). I'm an educational sociologist by trade and I can't help thinking in terms on personality and cognitive "Types" when I observe the commonalities of behaviour (if indeed this is a form of behaviour) that a group display. Of course, some of that will be learnt from our similarly-afflicted contemporaries (certain protocols etc) and some will be characteristics of our conditions (if indeed they are anything other than part of our grossly misunderstood personalities) and our common pursuit to understand and treat them.
HOWEVER, what I can't seem to help also noticing is what appears to be the result of more fundamental and intrinsic aspects of character/peronailty traits which we all share and MAYBE (just maybe) are mistaken as mental illness when in fact they are a form of outstanding,atypical mental capacity. Lets remind ourself of a few things here, its already been stated earlier on this site just how many geniuses and astonishly high achievers throughout history have displayed some form of what "others" have termed as illness on the grounds that they deviate from the common understanding of what it is to be "normal" (which usually follows the lowest common denominator). Its been said before that this idea of normaility evolves and shifts depending on whichever particular subculture we belong to and where we find ourselves in history. Therefore as many postmodernists have concluded of late, the value of these constructions as a measure of objective reality or normality is defunct and instead relies on the masses subscribing to them - either voluntarily, or more typically, from fear of being otherwise - as any teenager in school how much freedom they have to express their individuality and you will soon see the power of these pressures to conform. However, those considered to be mentally ill share some traits which dont seem to have varied nearly as much throughout history and between individuals (on a fundamental level).
If there is one consistent thread of belief to be seen amongst the masses it is this: "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die." ARe we all people whose metal capacity will not allow us to do otherwise than to "reason why" and question the (utterly illfounded in my opinion) excuses and constructs which society has developed to make excuse for the otherwise meaningless, dangerous and remarkably subjective world that we all live in - but few share.
Here's a few ideas which are probably utterly heretical and totaly wrong but I'm going to state them anyway:
Depression and Anxiety
BELIEF OF THE NORM (just my definition and its poor): Depression is an illness in which the ability to enjoy the "good" things in life is lost and the motivation and "normal" abilities of the individual are affected. Anxiety is the constant state of alarm in response to percieved danger or insecurity that is beyond and above that which is reasonable.
MY HYPOTHESIS: Depression is a quite understandable response of the person who is equipped with sufficient intelligence to find flaw in the mechanisms that society clings to in order to deny and alleviate an otherwise pointless existence and painfull world. We live in a world of pain, death, sorrow and few meanings - why aren't we all depressed? Anxiety is also a normal response as we live in a constant state of danger in which the promises of saftey which the world offers us are only believable by those who choose not to dare examine them.I cant speak for other illnesses as I have never had them but maybe they too are quite justified responses for people incapable (through analytical reasoning and mental ability) to subscribe to artificially and incidental constructed values and beliefs which would make us "normal". Afterall, what is cognitive behavioural therapy if not a retraining on the mind to conform to these ideas - I'm not having a go at CBT as it works very well (90% of time in many cases such as agorophobia) but it is pure brainwashing and self dellusion through repetition.
Anyway, I'm rambling and I can't think clearly due to the drugs I'm on but what if.....
We embrace our uniqueness and stop fearing it as "abnornmal" but recognise it as a form of genius - yes, genius - we are genetically incapable of delluding ourselves and can't help but "reason why"???????
We recognise that we do live in a world where meaning, contentment, happiness and security are based on mass dellsuion which our minds are incapable of purchasing wholesale and so we must seek out our own meanings and wrestle with them.
I should say though that perhaps religion or belief in a transcendant and intelligent God offer many solutions to our problems - though unless we buy our own bible and explore them for ourselves we simply embrace another set of contructions - however, if you can embrace them then this is probably not such a bad thing.
One thing that set me off thinking was Freud's statement towards the end of his career that he now realised that psychoanalysis was itself the very disease is sought to cure - in other words, an analytical fascination and sometimes morbid concern with our mental processes, their meaning and their relationship to the "norm" may in itself be the root of many of our problems and a symptom which sustains them.
PS - I know I'm talking rubbish and others such as the philosopher Foucault have said it all much better - in fact, I'm going to read his works on madness now!
Love to hear your ideas....
Posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 8:24:13
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
>
> We are all morbidly fascinated with our problems so much so that they appear to be as much a hobby as they are a burden - no offence intended as I am the worst for this.
>I finally have a hobby I can be proud of (hee hee). When I had my last visit with my pdoc, he asked me if I had any hobbies, and I said no.
Next week, I can revise my answer with an enthusiastic YES!
I just re-read my post... I'm pretty pathetic.
Posted by laural on October 20, 2000, at 8:28:23
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 7:21:59
hi glyn--
i wish i had the energy to respond to you as elequently as you, but i can barely see fit to punctuate--this site is comprised of pretty smart people, wise too, and i think maybe you can loose sight of the fact that there may be people reading out there who are too intimidated to join in who are just as depressed. 1) i've know depressives much slower than i and closer to the "norm" 2) those "geniuses" had generally pretty darn short retched life spans and like them i would be dead by now if it weren't for trying to find my place within the "norm"
IMO< yes, i do think depression knocks down those self-defense mechanisms that those in the norm use to keep sane in a totally random world but those self-defense mechanisms are there for a reason: well-being and survival. Not all self-defense mechanisms are bad--most stunt your growth as an individual, but some sheild you from the true face of god, so to speak. all i know is that you have some limited control over what happens around you with positive or negative thinking and if you surround yourself with negativity and madness you'll find yourself in a catch-22 and create more--
Posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 11:07:35
In reply to Yay, I finally have a hobby., posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 8:24:13
Christina,
Gee, of all the things I've thought about you when reading your posts, pathetic was never one of them.Now stop that!! I find your posts interesting, fun, asking good questions, etc. Not pathetic.
Arghhh. Don't say that to yourself, although I know we all do it! It's so awful to read that you would even think that about your sweet self.
Shar
>
> >
> > We are all morbidly fascinated with our problems so much so that they appear to be as much a hobby as they are a burden - no offence intended as I am the worst for this.
> >
>
> I finally have a hobby I can be proud of (hee hee). When I had my last visit with my pdoc, he asked me if I had any hobbies, and I said no.
>
> Next week, I can revise my answer with an enthusiastic YES!
>
> I just re-read my post... I'm pretty pathetic.
Posted by Sharon J. on October 20, 2000, at 11:38:29
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 7:21:59
Hi. I made a comment in this thread earlier on, and I said before that I was found it "interesting" where this thread was going. I want to own that I was angry when I first read the start of the this thread. (Is the starting message in a thread called a 'Post'?) I am brand new here, only discovering this site Tuesday night, by accident. I took personally some of what Glyn said in her descriptions of those who use this site (morbidly fascincated with illness, this is a hobby, etc.) I guess I felt those descriptions were judgemental and condescending to me, and I resented being lumped in as "us" and "we" and, well, I got a real bad taste in my mouth
I have been reading along as more and more of you add your wonderful viewpoints and amazing observations, and I want to say that now I am truly awestruck and grateful to where this thread is going. It is symbolic, to me, of what I see other threads I have read -- openness begets openness, and I feel so relieved to see that what I can expect here is folks, like me, who are real. That's way cool. And who are really, really great in expressing what is important to them, and that there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience and everyone lends in a hand when the have something to say that might help. I am a new kid on the block. And I really like the neighborhood, and I am glad to be one of "us" and "we". And that's what I have to say in regards to my own personal *OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL.* After all, whatever I see in others has more to do with what I see in myself than anything else. And the good news is..I like what I see!
Posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 12:19:47
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by Sharon J. on October 20, 2000, at 11:38:29
I'm glad you feel that way as I do too. I was worried about condeming anybody and I hoped that people would see where I was coming from which is why I further elaoborated my post. I am the kind of person who finds tremendous relief in self analysis and analysis of the groups which I associate with and have to be careful sometimes to not be as strikingly and cruely honest about others as I am with myself. I take back "morbid fascination" as its completely the wrong term and instead would like to offer "introspective self analysis" as "morbidity" can mean pertaining to the body and the self as well as connotating darkness and death (the latter is often mistaken for the first and I should have chosen another term).
Also, I think its great that we find a hobby in our illnesses as long as this is a constructive and healing exercise and not one that perpetuates our problems - wisdom is required to know the difference. Learning to try and forgot and not dwell on problems can be importanbt to recovery where anxiety is concerned as anxiety about anciety is often what leads to (and sustains) a nervous breakdown - at least for me. HOWEVER, I'm sure that carefully monitoring moods and being aware of the self is vital where mood disorders and episodic problems are concerned.
I'd be heartbroken to think I caused anybody any distress and if this is the case I truely apologise - I guess I just feel the need to stand back and take a long hard look at myself sometimes (a kind of a self audit) and I dont wish to drag others down with me.
My main purpose was to encourage people by highlighting what I consider to be great and admirable strengths, abilities and value and in their "weaknesses".
I genuinely believe (after having studied the people on this site) that mental distress can be a price we pay for remarkable insight and cognitive abilities. But then, I might be manic and having dellusions of granduer! But its unlikely as I see the same to a greater extent in others.
God bless you all with your struggles and I truely hope that you find relief - whether it be through acceptance or triumph.
As the alcoholics annonymous prayer goes:
"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can and wisdom to know the difference"
(BTW - I'm not an evangelist or anything so please dont think the refences to God are a precursor to the "full-on gospel")
Posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 12:26:51
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by Sharon J. on October 20, 2000, at 11:38:29
Welcome. I really admire your ability to be up-front about what you are/were feeling, and to let us know the real you.
I did not like certain phrases either, but I am so good at offending people, I tried to mention it within my post and be real nice about it. I'm afraid that's not the real me, but I'm sort of in "low profile" mode right now.
So, I really appreciate your knack for saying something in a non-offensive way, and hope I will learn from you.
Shar
Posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 14:26:19
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL » GLYN, posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 2:12:23
(I have trouble with the description of "morbid fascination" -- If I had cancer or an immune disorder for which there were no hard and fast "cures" I would be hard at work learning as much as I could about that also.)
James here....
I do too (trouble with description, morbid fascination). My present doc flat out says I do so well because I am informed. It is common in the medical community to want patients to not ask questions or be informed. "Take this pill, don't ask questions" The assumption is that medical knowlage is only for the few. If I am going to have a condition for the rest of my life and take meds it is only logical to read up. I have met with a docs who was not comfortable with my questions and knowlage. I told them that since I am paying and they don't seem to have the time or are not comfortable with me I will find someone else.
james
Posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 14:42:08
In reply to Re: Yay, I finally have a hobby.---Arghhhh! » Christina, posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 11:07:35
Shar, Thanks for your kind words....
I think that my lack of a real hobby is pathetic.
I am not.
I've thought a lot about a hobby. I'm not very artistic, but i enjoy working in the yard. I've thought about planting a vegetable garden. Maybe in the spring.
Others have spoken about ceramics. I did ceramics while in a psychiatric hospital (ya know, part of the recreational therapy), and now when I think about doing them again, I get the heebie jeebies. I made a vase... It was ugly just like my mood while in the hospital.
Posted by Sharon J. on October 20, 2000, at 17:30:37
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 12:19:47
Hi, all. Thanks Shar and Glyn for your responses to me with regards to this thread. As I said, I am brand new here. I found this site quite by accident when my search engine found a URL which linked to a thread in Psychobabble when I was desperately searching for information to understand a real wierd problem about my meds...never even went to the web to seek information on my own before...was truly blessed when I happened to "click" on just the right reference and ended up here. I addressed my original plea for information and "help" and titled it: DOES THIS MAKE SCENTS? and posted it on 10/18. I got quite a few responses already and some really wonderful input in just the past 3 few days. I don't know if this is appropriate to do in this circle, but, if anybody would mind reading what is in that thread and can offer anything at all with regards to it, I'd be grateful. Thanks alot.
Posted by MarkinBoston on October 20, 2000, at 17:51:02
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
Interesting observations, here's my feedback. I too am "treatment resistant" like most here. I've been through lots of meds which eventually resolve my major unipolar melancholic episodes, help some with dysthymia, but not much in comparison to the side effects, and nothing for underlying anhedonia. My enjoyment of things and motivation are definately subnormal during major episodes and enjoyment always subnormal. Memory and cognitive skills return to suprnormal after major episodes (normal for me).
> We are all morbidly fascinated with our problems so much so that they appear to be as much a hobby as they are a burden - no offence intended as I am the worst for this.
Well, I've spent less time here as I'm starting to feel pretty good on 20mg Ritalin AM, 5g 1% Androgel bid, 50mg. Serzone bid. The first two I think make the biggesst difference for me and the subtheraputic level of Serzone helps and more of it increased memory problems (morning fog turning to panic while trying to remember where my keys or whatever are).
Some people may be here for the sense of community or shared common cause. I have a number of hobbies, but lose interest in them during episodes and priority shifts to health. When healthy, there are many things I'd rather do than spend personal time on a computer.
> We are all extremely intelligent, articulate, informed and, I would guess, fairly high achievers or gross under achievers.
I fall into that last catagory, and upon just turning 40 got really pissed off about the time I've wasted, fettered by this disease. I've had accounts and email addresses on "the net" for 25 years, started working for DEC at 16 fixing operating system bugs, dropped out of college, interviewed at Microsoft in 1982 with Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates, and turned down the job offer because the job wasn't interesting enough; they didn't have an ARPAnet connection, and DOS on an 8080 PC was a pathetic excuse for a computer compared to what I had been using. I am mad at myself for not having more motivation and in hindsight see it as component of long standing dysthymia. Same with a mostly single status resulting from long term anhedonia. Oh, and while I may be bright, I don't spell well.
> Almost all of you (I dont include myself in this just yet) are more informed about our meds than most docs are.
This is a current problem for me. The last three doctors I've seen in 6 months have not liked it. My pdoc of 8 years is supportive, and unlike the others appears to listen well and exchange knowledge. It seems to bruse their ego that I want to work with them on a course of treatment instead of just accepting their standard treatment for whatever issue. Spending more time on pubmed then they do, when its their job, irritates them too. I wish more doctors were as open-minded and unthreatened as my pdoc. This week's friction was splitting up my dose of Androgel to bedtime and waketime to decrease aromatization to estridiol, which elvates my already high levels, which twice resulted in panic attacks. The manufacturer advocates once a day use following the morning shower without much explination, but I infer its to reduce undesireable transfer to a female partner, but that is not a factor for me now. He turned down my request for very low dose Arimidex to reduce T- >E2 conversion, and didn't appreciate me suggesting giving Clomid to men to more quickly restore endogenous testosterone production when going off gel, patch, or shots. Both he termed as for research use, not clinical use, though anabolic steroid using athletes routinely do both. I'm sure he thinks I'm crazy (psyc history, you know), and though I was relieved to find that in men too, increased estradiol levels result in heightened stress response like I've felt, reading the study abstracts from PubMed won't change his opionion of my mental state.
Like JohnL, I've been frustrated at the lack of protocol for treating depression. I'm also frustrated by the trouble I've had finding a MD with expertise in both endocrinology and depression, despite the interrelationship in my case. Sometimes a pdoc will screen for hypothyroidism, but I don't know many wanting a full endocrine workup. Even endocrinologists seldom use the extended assays requiring numerous samples because hormone levels can have cycles, spurts, an/or dramatic 15-minute level changes. There's also the link between endocrinology (hypercortisolism) and hypertension, and newer types of anti-hypertensives are also antiaxiolytic.
> An alarming number of us confess to have taken some kind of illegal drug in the past (Cannabis, LSD etc). The old causation correlation debate applies here though and because there appears to be a relationship it is not easy to say if one caused the other.
I'd love to feel as good as the average person and illegal drugs must have some positive attributes if the government goes through the hassle of creating legislation. I don't know of any laws banning ingestion of purely toxic substances like gasoline, bleach, Draino etc.. Other factors at work here are that psyc meds stigmatize, but the value of sharing information outweighs that fear; we're shameless! Since HIV, having to talk openly about sex became a life or death issue, and a little embarassment was nothing compared to the pain of losing a loved one. Also more open is discussion of schedule I drug use to the degree that even our elected officials have talked about their own use.
As for having tried some schedule I drugs, well, I've tried far more antidepressants. No stigma in that. Even if I were a person adverse to trying new things (foods, activities, positions, travel), a pdoc would encourage trying a new drug or dosage if it might work (better). So some of us may have been more experimental to begin with or encouraged to be by Russian Roulette of psyc drug choice leading to more drugs experienced than if there were a more scientific approach to narrow down treatment candidates.
As to causation correlation debate, I think making a drug illegal causes more research funding to support the political decision. A drug I would like to see made illegal is the heartburn drug Tagamet (citimidine) which is now off patent and over the counter and can cause depression and hypogonadism besides having many drug interactions. But without "abuse potential", and large sales -its not likely to be made illegal despite newer, safer drugs.
So, being bright, more free-thinking, and post Vietnam and Watergate, I don't assume the FDA/DEA, drug companies, and AMA have my health and interests as their top priority and know what's best for me.
> Despite all of our travailing, very few of us seem to have been "cured" or feel satisified by the meds we are taking.
I'm fairly satisfied with the progress I'm making and how I feel now. When I'm "cured" or health treatment is no longer an acute concern, I'll spend my time other than here.
Concerning your hypothesis about disillusion, I don't find it true. All my major episodes have resulted from prolonged exogenous stress. I've tried thinking "happy thoughts" without success and still try, having done some cognative therapy work in the mid 80's. Acceptance of nature and what I can't control is important. The times I feel hopeless is when I have trouble finding a good doctor who can listen, keeps current, is willing to spend time with a patient, doesn't feel threatened, and has expertise and experience in treating my seemingly simple, interrelated symptoms. I also feel hopeless when treatment isn't working and I feel most avenues have been exhausted. Then I stumble upon this site and hope returns as I find others in similar situations and reporting benefit from many atypical combinations I had not considered.
One footnote on panic. One paper I came across on a small study sample subjected to 5 days of public speaking showed two thirds adapted to the stressor during that period with lowering HPA stimulation (cortisol levels), while one third maintained high cortisol levels throughout. So, many are predisposed to having panic.
Posted by coral on October 20, 2000, at 17:55:55
In reply to Re: Yay, I finally have a hobby.---Arghhhh!, posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 14:42:08
During my first depressive episode, I was doing some work in clay and made a self-mask, actually molded from my face. Due to improper clay, the mask came out very distorted, with a couple of large cracks, but it represented exactly how I was feeling at the time. I've kept it as a visual reminder of the HELL that I will NOT go back to, under any circumstances. The second depressive episode (much less severe and much shorter in duration) scared the living daylights out of me. I was completely blindsided by it, and although I took immediate and effective measures to tackle it, and I do believe I'm on the healing side, it still has me scared. I literally have immersed myself in attempting to understand, learn, heal, and, frankly, "morbid fascination" fit me to a tee. On a particularly bad day a week ago, I spent six hours scouring the net and this board for information while not doing anything else for the remainder of the day, including dressing, bathing or eating.
By NO means do I intend to minimize others' struggles, and find myself humbled and in awe of the people on this board who have fought this battle their entire lives. But, for me, this second episode is almost like having flashbacks. In addition to three and a half years of my life, I came within a hair's breath of losing everything, and am still (six years later) rebuilding financially. I will do anything (short of harming another person) to conquer this depression. Having said that, on my worst days, my best intentions fail me and I'm wrapped up in a blanket on the couch, knowing that I'll probably have a hellish night -- so, I sit counting the hours, even minutes, until the dawn of the next day, hoping it'll be better --- rather like keeping a vampire at bay until the sunlight returns.
One element that I haven't seen (or missed!) in this thread is the amount of energy that depression requires. Maybe I'm just deluding myself, but during the bad times, if I'm at least researching depression, et al, I don't feel like a complete failure.
Also, I will admit to extreme curiosity about this invisible marauder, this thief that ravaged my life once and attempted to a second time. It's like having been mugged and the self-education is like learning self-defense, especially given that I received such incredibly awful and harmful medical advice the first time.
I find depression to be crushingly boring, not unlike being stuck next to a gum-cracking, incessant chatterbox on an overseas flight. I desperately want to think about other things, and will, just as soon as this plane lands.
As far as the world being a painful place --- yes, it is, but it's also beautiful. There is joy in this life and I intend to get back to where joy is an integral part of my life.
Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 20:14:43
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 14:26:19
> (I have trouble with the description of "morbid fascination" -- If I had cancer or an immune disorder for which there were no hard and fast "cures" I would be hard at work learning as much as I could about that also.)
>
> James here....
>
> I do too (trouble with description, morbid fascination). My present doc flat out says I do so well because I am informed. It is common in the medical community to want patients to not ask questions or be informed. "Take this pill, don't ask questions" The assumption is that medical knowlage is only for the few. If I am going to have a condition for the rest of my life and take meds it is only logical to read up. I have met with a docs who was not comfortable with my questions and knowlage. I told them that since I am paying and they don't seem to have the time or are not comfortable with me I will find someone else.
>
> james
If my first doctor had treated me successfully with one of the first few drugs tried, my only morbid fascination would be with why I had no morbid fascinations.I wish I didn't know a god-damned thing about psychiatry except for what pills to take in the morning.
- Scott
Posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 20:31:25
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 20:14:43
Why, I wonder, are people still objecting to my description of "morbid fascination" when I completely withdrew it in an earlier post and instead offered a better description? Please read this earlier post as I think posts which continue to reiterate the same points which I have already gave answer to appear more as a defence strategy than a valid and justified reply. I wonder if people would have been as offended if I had called you all "mad", "crazy" or "loonies" - I doubt it. So why does this cause such offence and what might this be saying about how you are coming to terms with your "illness".
As I said, I NEVER intended any offence and would hope that people are able to make up their own minds about what I have said. I dont mean to say that introspection is a wrong thing at all - rather that it is interesting as it may indicate a form of intelligence or ability that in some way contributes to our condition.
Please dont take offence and no more posts on the subject of "morbid introspection" as its making me unduly guilty and paranoid. I love your introspection (morbid or not) and want to encourage it but would also like to add a further element of analysis.
Posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 21:40:08
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 12:19:47
My main purpose was to encourage people by highlighting what I consider to be great and admirable strengths, abilities and value and in their "weaknesses".
James here....
Yes and no. Depression has never helped me with anything but ADD has been a great help once i mastered the downsides of it.
james
Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 22:05:10
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 20:31:25
Hi Glyn.
Sorry...No offense was ever taken. At this point, the issue of perspective has taken on a life of its own and is no longer a continuing response to you personally. I had no idea who said it in the first place. Now that I do, you know what you can do? Please write more. It was gracious of you to follow up your first post with a contemplative ammendment.
See ya'...
- Scott
> Why, I wonder, are people still objecting to my description of "morbid fascination" when I completely withdrew it in an earlier post and instead offered a better description? Please read this earlier post as I think posts which continue to reiterate the same points which I have already gave answer to appear more as a defence strategy than a valid and justified reply. I wonder if people would have been as offended if I had called you all "mad", "crazy" or "loonies" - I doubt it. So why does this cause such offence and what might this be saying about how you are coming to terms with your "illness".
>
> As I said, I NEVER intended any offence and would hope that people are able to make up their own minds about what I have said. I dont mean to say that introspection is a wrong thing at all - rather that it is interesting as it may indicate a form of intelligence or ability that in some way contributes to our condition.
>
> Please dont take offence and no more posts on the subject of "morbid introspection" as its making me unduly guilty and paranoid. I love your introspection (morbid or not) and want to encourage it but would also like to add a further element of analysis.
Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 22:09:04
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 21:40:08
> My main purpose was to encourage people by highlighting what I consider to be great and admirable strengths, abilities and value and in their "weaknesses".
>
> James here....
>
> Yes and no. Depression has never helped me with anything but ADD has been a great help once i mastered the downsides of it.
>
> james
I don't know, James. I was told that people who are depressed have a more accurate perception of the world.:-)
- Scott
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:28:35
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by stjames on October 19, 2000, at 22:38:25
> Do keep in mind this list is weighted toward those who are having trouble with meds.
Yes, some folks who used to be regulars said they were moving on when they felt better.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:34:09
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 7:21:59
This sounds nice, Glyn, but my guess is that there are as many people who are just as smart and aware but don't suffer mental illness.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:34:57
In reply to Yay, I finally have a hobby., posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 8:24:13
> I just re-read my post... I'm pretty pathetic.No, but pretty amusing!!
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