![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by Janice on July 12, 2000, at 22:00:03
In reply to Tired but Can't Sleep Lately-Frustrated as Hell, posted by tina on July 11, 2000, at 20:52:18
hi tina,
guess #1: med change (sometimes my sleep is whacky for a few weeks after a change)
guess #2: environment change: quit smoking, exercising at different times, taking a medication that you used to take in the morning at night. (If you're like me -poor you - you may not only be emotionally sensitive, but also physically sensitive)
guess #3: stress - but you'd probably know it if this was the case tina. Sounds like you take good care of yourself, which makes me think it's probably guess 1 or 2.
Take care and hugs back. Janice
Posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 7:27:46
In reply to Re: Tired but Can't Sleep Lately-Frustrated as Hel, posted by Janice on July 12, 2000, at 22:00:03
Hey everybody: Still no sleep last night, well, maybe an hour. Just wired at bedtime. Took clonazepam and xanax but was still pretty energetic upon going to bed. Pacing and racing thoughts and I was shaky and fidgety. If you knew me, the fidgeting part would really surprise you. I don't fidget, ever. Always got slapped as a kid when I fidgetted so now I never do. Spent the night walking back and forth down the hall and drinking water and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy. Took more xanax and was able to fall asleep around 5 this morning but I woke up around 6-6:30 feeling groggy but right now I have the energy to run a marathon again. Geez, a little rest and relaxation would be nice. I used to want to sleep all day and now I just want to walk, pace and fidget. Am I losing my mind? Could this be a bi-polar manic episode? Help!
> hi tina,
>
> guess #1: med change (sometimes my sleep is whacky for a few weeks after a change)
>
> guess #2: environment change: quit smoking, exercising at different times, taking a medication that you used to take in the morning at night. (If you're like me -poor you - you may not only be emotionally sensitive, but also physically sensitive)
>
> guess #3: stress - but you'd probably know it if this was the case tina. Sounds like you take good care of yourself, which makes me think it's probably guess 1 or 2.
>
> Take care and hugs back. Janice
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2000, at 8:46:12
In reply to Re: Still No Sleep--Losing My Mind I Think, posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 7:27:46
Hi Jennifer - I wondered if any of these physical symptoms bring anything to mind? I look to you as this lots-of-knowledge person.
Kath
> Hey everybody: Still no sleep last night, well, maybe an hour. Just wired at bedtime. Took clonazepam and xanax but was still pretty energetic upon going to bed. Pacing and racing thoughts and I was shaky and fidgety. If you knew me, the fidgeting part would really surprise you. I don't fidget, ever. Always got slapped as a kid when I fidgetted so now I never do. Spent the night walking back and forth down the hall and drinking water and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy. Took more xanax and was able to fall asleep around 5 this morning but I woke up around 6-6:30 feeling groggy but right now I have the energy to run a marathon again. Geez, a little rest and relaxation would be nice. I used to want to sleep all day and now I just want to walk, pace and fidget. Am I losing my mind? Could this be a bi-polar manic episode? Help!
>
>
>
> > hi tina,
> >
> > guess #1: med change (sometimes my sleep is whacky for a few weeks after a change)
> >
> > guess #2: environment change: quit smoking, exercising at different times, taking a medication that you used to take in the morning at night. (If you're like me -poor you - you may not only be emotionally sensitive, but also physically sensitive)
> >
> > guess #3: stress - but you'd probably know it if this was the case tina. Sounds like you take good care of yourself, which makes me think it's probably guess 1 or 2.
> >
> > Take care and hugs back. Janice
Posted by Janice on July 13, 2000, at 9:29:12
In reply to Re: Still No Sleep--Losing My Mind I Think, posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 7:27:46
hi tina,
I usually feel pretty good during a hypomanic sleepless time. Usually sleeplessness in bipolar people causes the hypomania, unless you are experiencing a mixed episode. Tina, have you made a medication change recently?
I'd try not to sleep during the day just so I could hopefully sleep tonight. But you know yourself better than me and maybe a nap would be good if you could do one. I'll be thinking of you, Janice
Posted by Noa on July 13, 2000, at 10:30:38
In reply to Re: Still No Sleep--Losing My Mind I Think, posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 7:27:46
>and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy.
I don't know, but this sounds like it could be a symptom of nicotine withdrawal.
Posted by Greg on July 13, 2000, at 10:53:27
In reply to Re: Still No Sleep--Losing My Mind I Think, posted by Noa on July 13, 2000, at 10:30:38
Tina,
It never dawned on me when reading this before, but I think Noa could be onto something here. Having been been a war-torn veteran of several attempts to quit smoking, the itchy feeling was something I experienced along with irritability, shaking, and trouble sleeping (and the inevitable urge to bite the head off of everyone who spoke to me). I really think she may be on to something here. Is the nicotine patch or gum a possibility for you? Just a thought.
Hugs, Greg
> >and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy.
>
> I don't know, but this sounds like it could be a symptom of nicotine withdrawal.
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2000, at 13:27:11
In reply to Re: Still No Sleep--Losing My Mind I Think, posted by Greg on July 13, 2000, at 10:53:27
Tina - if your body is going through nicotine withdrawal there's a homeopathic for that also! Just thought of it. I know there's one in the tubes. The brand looks like it's NU-MEDICINE. The tube for n-withdrawal is yellowy-orange.
My other thought is to make sure your body has the vitamins that help with detoxification. Vitamin C is good. Once again, you can look through books at a natural food store. My "Bible" is "Prescription for Nutritional Healing". I got over my severe chemical sensitivities referring to this great book. It's expensive - I got mine on sale for $20. Around here, most natural food stores carry it & some even have a reference copy. There's a section in the book for smoking dependency. It says "The nutrients suggested are rocommended to correct probably smoking-related deficiencies & damage while you work to kick the habit. I'll list what it suggests. Essential: Coenzyme Q10 200mg twice/day - Aids oxygen flow to the brain; protects heart tissue. Also acts as an antioxidant to protect cells & the lungs. Vitamin C 5,000-20,000mg /day. Important antioxidant that protects against cell damage. Smoking drastically depletes the body of Vitamin C. Vitamin B complex 100mg daily (you can get time-released). Necessary in cellular enzyme systems often damaged in smokers. Use sublingual form if possible (dissolved under the tongue). Increases energy; needed for liver function. Folic acid 400mcg/day (I'm not sure if we can get large dose tablets of folic acid in Canada). Needed for the formation of red blood cells; important for healthy cell division & replication. Vitamin E - start with 200IU/day & increase by 200IU each month up to 800 IU daily. One of the most important antioxidants, needed to protect cells & organs from damage by the smoke.
It goes on to list "Very Important" and "Helpful".Good luck, Kath
Posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 15:13:00
In reply to Vitamin supplementation? To TINA, posted by Kath on July 13, 2000, at 13:27:11
Thanks for all the great ideas. Kath--I have that book. It's my bible too. Noa, you are probably right about the withdrawal although I have to tell you I don't even crave a cigarette. Not interested at all. Can I have withdrawal without even having a desire to smoke? Confusing. Janice--No med change recently. Still the same old stuff although I may have to get off meds due to some really high cpk levels on my liver function test last week. Doc doesn't like the look of it. Also found out from doc today that I am hypoglycemic which may explain the frequent panic and anxiety problems I have. Doing the diet change thing starting today although I don't really eat sugar except gram's cookies and that's infrequently.
Thankyou again everyone. As always your info and advice is highly intelligent and greatly appreciated. You guys are awesome.
Love Tina
> Tina - if your body is going through nicotine withdrawal there's a homeopathic for that also! Just thought of it. I know there's one in the tubes. The brand looks like it's NU-MEDICINE. The tube for n-withdrawal is yellowy-orange.
> My other thought is to make sure your body has the vitamins that help with detoxification. Vitamin C is good. Once again, you can look through books at a natural food store. My "Bible" is "Prescription for Nutritional Healing". I got over my severe chemical sensitivities referring to this great book. It's expensive - I got mine on sale for $20. Around here, most natural food stores carry it & some even have a reference copy. There's a section in the book for smoking dependency. It says "The nutrients suggested are rocommended to correct probably smoking-related deficiencies & damage while you work to kick the habit. I'll list what it suggests. Essential: Coenzyme Q10 200mg twice/day - Aids oxygen flow to the brain; protects heart tissue. Also acts as an antioxidant to protect cells & the lungs. Vitamin C 5,000-20,000mg /day. Important antioxidant that protects against cell damage. Smoking drastically depletes the body of Vitamin C. Vitamin B complex 100mg daily (you can get time-released). Necessary in cellular enzyme systems often damaged in smokers. Use sublingual form if possible (dissolved under the tongue). Increases energy; needed for liver function. Folic acid 400mcg/day (I'm not sure if we can get large dose tablets of folic acid in Canada). Needed for the formation of red blood cells; important for healthy cell division & replication. Vitamin E - start with 200IU/day & increase by 200IU each month up to 800 IU daily. One of the most important antioxidants, needed to protect cells & organs from damage by the smoke.
> It goes on to list "Very Important" and "Helpful".
>
> Good luck, Kath
Posted by Janice on July 13, 2000, at 18:30:08
In reply to Re: To EVERYONE, posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 15:13:00
Tina,
I'm so happy you found this out. Hypoglycemia could be the root of alot of your problems. This could turn out to be very great news for you - which, as an added bonus would include many good nights sleep for you.
take care, Janice
Posted by Jennifer on July 14, 2000, at 0:47:49
In reply to Jennifer - Any thoughts re Tina's 7/13 post?, posted by Kath on July 13, 2000, at 8:46:12
Tina,
My, what a long thread! Seems like you may not be the only sleepless one! Kath suggested I read your 7/13 post, and I have ended up reading the entire darn thread. I don't envy you one bit. I hate sleeplessness! Anyway, here's my 2 cents, which mixes in with a lot of everyone else's thoughts:
Hypoglycemia and "I'm a vegetarian"...hmmm, how balanced is your protien intake?
Quit smoking...wow, that's awesome! It takes about two weeks for your body to adjust chemically to not having the nicotine, even if you don't have cravings. I have absolutely NO idea, but without the nicotine, could your meds be absorbed differently? Good question for the pdoc, or someone here. Also, if it keeps up, maybe you would do better with the nicotine patch (much more easy to regulate than the gum) that way you could slowly lower your levels over several weeks. No risk of nicotine tox since you're not having any cig's on top of it.
Warm bath...great idea, but needs to be one hour before bedtime. You actually get tired from the cooling effect that occurs over the next hour.
Antioxidants...another awesome one to help conteract your bodies crud from the nicotine. As far as the homeopathic, watch that it isn't "true" homeopathic. Some just use that term for "natural" meds. Natural is great, but homeopathic is when they put only one part per million or billion of the stuff in purified water. If such a thing were possible, then an alcoholic would be able to drink "homeopathic" alcohol and not have withdrawal. Physiologically impossible! In other words, don't pay good money for a tiny half-oz bottle of clean water.
Xanax and other benzo's...hey, not good for sleep at all. As a matter of fact your sleep gets all screwed up if you use these for sleep instead of anxiety. Your EEG will show all these spindles that are from the benzo use. Too much brain activity while trying to sleep! If your pdoc won't give you sleeping meds (which would be a great idea short term) how about good old Benadryl (dyphenhydramine HCL) 50mg one our before bed? It's the same as Sominex. I'd hate to use it more than two weeks though, once you get over all the nicotine stuff.
Exercise...great for the body. Affects sleep in 2 ways. Morning exercise causes a decreased need for sleep, basically for every hr of workout, half-hour less sleep needed. Keep within reason though...This only works up to about 2 hr total decrease in sleep time. PM exercise is rotten for sleep. Your metabolism stays up for 4 hrs, and you can't sleep. No afternoon or PM exercise!
General sleep hygiene: Same sleep time and wake time within fifteen minutes every day. No naps. Bath one hour prior to bedtime. Milk, calcium, drugs :) one hour prior. Comfortable bed. No extra noise...use a fan or "white noise" machine if needed. Watch your pm diet. If you eat an early dinner with low carbo/protein, you are going hypoglycemic at night. Eat a nice balanced meal, and have a bedtime snack with your milk. Something long lasting. Not anything like graham crackers that spike your blood sugar and then drop it like a fly! Don't read or watch TV in bed. If it's too irresistable, get the TV out of there. Bed for sleeping only! If you can't sleep for over twenty to thirty minutes, get OUT OF BED and OUT of your room. Go downstairs and read. No online stuff, no movies. You may get caught up in it and won't go to bed when your body signals you to do so. Once tired again, try again...and again and again and again. Pacing? Don't. Increases that heart rate and metabolism. Do anything to calm down besides xanax. Do your nails, paint, write, color a darn coloring book, but don't do anything that will make you more "up".
Good luck! There are sleep disorder clinics if this keeps up over a month or so. Most likely it's short term. Keep up the great exercise and stuff to offset any stress (even good stress). Let us know how it's going...and we better not see any submissions between 10pm and 8am! Jennifer
> Hi Jennifer - I wondered if any of these physical symptoms bring anything to mind? I look to you as this lots-of-knowledge person.
>
> Kath
>
>
> > Hey everybody: Still no sleep last night, well, maybe an hour. Just wired at bedtime. Took clonazepam and xanax but was still pretty energetic upon going to bed. Pacing and racing thoughts and I was shaky and fidgety. If you knew me, the fidgeting part would really surprise you. I don't fidget, ever. Always got slapped as a kid when I fidgetted so now I never do. Spent the night walking back and forth down the hall and drinking water and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy. Took more xanax and was able to fall asleep around 5 this morning but I woke up around 6-6:30 feeling groggy but right now I have the energy to run a marathon again. Geez, a little rest and relaxation would be nice. I used to want to sleep all day and now I just want to walk, pace and fidget. Am I losing my mind? Could this be a bi-polar manic episode? Help!
> >
> >
> >
> > > hi tina,
> > >
> > > guess #1: med change (sometimes my sleep is whacky for a few weeks after a change)
> > >
> > > guess #2: environment change: quit smoking, exercising at different times, taking a medication that you used to take in the morning at night. (If you're like me -poor you - you may not only be emotionally sensitive, but also physically sensitive)
> > >
> > > guess #3: stress - but you'd probably know it if this was the case tina. Sounds like you take good care of yourself, which makes me think it's probably guess 1 or 2.
> > >
> > > Take care and hugs back. Janice
Posted by shar on July 14, 2000, at 1:11:27
In reply to Re: Thoughts re Tina's 7/13 post?, posted by Jennifer on July 14, 2000, at 0:47:49
Nicotene is a stimulus blocker extrodinaire, one of the benes that smokers get. Increased ability to focus and stay on task, etc. (This is generally speaking of course.)
So, if you've just given up a great stimulus blocker you'd be more aware of all the little mind/body/environment things that went on before but unnoticed. This could lead to restlessness, wanting to pace, etc.
When I've quit before, I don't recall that particular problem. I was more of the I want to scream all the time type.
Good luck with sleeping.
Oh--I have a favorite book on tape that I put on sometimes at bedtime. The speaker is good to listen to, the book is a Jungian analysis of abandonment, including telling about archetypes and myths.
So, it's almost like a story. That captures my attention pretty well, and helps when I'm thinking too hard at bedtime. If you have something like that, might be worth a try.
Shar
Posted by noa on July 14, 2000, at 7:05:24
In reply to Re: To EVERYONE, posted by tina on July 13, 2000, at 15:13:00
>Can I have withdrawal without even having a desire to smoke?
Yes! There is psychological withdrawal and physical withdrawal. I think you are experiencing the latter.
Posted by tina on July 14, 2000, at 9:40:55
In reply to Re: Thoughts re Tina's 7/13 post?, posted by Jennifer on July 14, 2000, at 0:47:49
>Jennifer, I'm going to answer your post through your post ok:
Tina,
>
> My, what a long thread! Seems like you may not be the only sleepless one! Kath suggested I read your 7/13 post, and I have ended up reading the entire darn thread. I don't envy you one bit. I hate sleeplessness! Anyway, here's my 2 cents, which mixes in with a lot of everyone else's thoughts:
>
> Hypoglycemia and "I'm a vegetarian"...hmmm, how balanced is your protien intake?-----Working on that now. Taking protein supplements on doc's orders. Amino acid breakdown or something like that anyway.
>
> Quit smoking...wow, that's awesome! It takes about two weeks for your body to adjust chemically to not having the nicotine, even if you don't have cravings. I have absolutely NO idea, but without the nicotine, could your meds be absorbed differently? Good question for the pdoc, or someone here. Also, if it keeps up, maybe you would do better with the nicotine patch (much more easy to regulate than the gum) that way you could slowly lower your levels over several weeks. No risk of nicotine tox since you're not having any cig's on top of it
---Don't want the patch. It's almost 2 weeks now and I want the nicotine out of my system as soon as possible so putting it back in in however small a dose is not an option I'd consider.>
> Warm bath...great idea, but needs to be one hour before bedtime. You actually get tired from the cooling effect that occurs over the next hour.
----willing to try this one. I'll keep you posted
>
> Antioxidants...another awesome one to help conteract your bodies crud from the nicotine. As far as the homeopathic, watch that it isn't "true" homeopathic. Some just use that term for "natural" meds. Natural is great, but homeopathic is when they put only one part per million or billion of the stuff in purified water. If such a thing were possible, then an alcoholic would be able to drink "homeopathic" alcohol and not have withdrawal. Physiologically impossible! In other words, don't pay good money for a tiny half-oz bottle of clean water.
---thanks for the heads up about the watery remedies. I'll keep my eyes peeled. Thinking of trying some sleep teas before bed. I love herbal teas so it might be a good idea. Valerian, hops, passionflower. I'll give them all a try. Can't hurt anyway.
>
> Xanax and other benzo's...hey, not good for sleep at all. As a matter of fact your sleep gets all screwed up if you use these for sleep instead of anxiety. Your EEG will show all these spindles that are from the benzo use. Too much brain activity while trying to sleep! If your pdoc won't give you sleeping meds (which would be a great idea short term) how about good old Benadryl (dyphenhydramine HCL) 50mg one our before bed? It's the same as Sominex. I'd hate to use it more than two weeks though, once you get over all the nicotine stuff.
-----you are right about the benzos messing up your sleep. I slept a little more last night but had the most awful nightmares, violent and really disheartening. Probably the benzos I took before bed. Maybe I'll try the benedryl too. I remember antihistamines making me drowsy so it's worth a try.
>
> Exercise...great for the body. Affects sleep in 2 ways. Morning exercise causes a decreased need for sleep, basically for every hr of workout, half-hour less sleep needed. Keep within reason though...This only works up to about 2 hr total decrease in sleep time. PM exercise is rotten for sleep. Your metabolism stays up for 4 hrs, and you can't sleep. No afternoon or PM exercise!----I generally exercise in the afternoon. I'll try switching it to the morning and see if it helps.
>
> General sleep hygiene: Same sleep time and wake time within fifteen minutes every day. No naps. Bath one hour prior to bedtime. Milk, calcium, drugs :) one hour prior. Comfortable bed. No extra noise...use a fan or "white noise" machine if needed. Watch your pm diet. If you eat an early dinner with low carbo/protein, you are going hypoglycemic at night. Eat a nice balanced meal, and have a bedtime snack with your milk. Something long lasting. Not anything like graham crackers that spike your blood sugar and then drop it like a fly! Don't read or watch TV in bed. If it's too irresistable, get the TV out of there. Bed for sleeping only! If you can't sleep for over twenty to thirty minutes, get OUT OF BED and OUT of your room. Go downstairs and read. No online stuff, no movies. You may get caught up in it and won't go to bed when your body signals you to do so. Once tired again, try again...and again and again and again. Pacing? Don't. Increases that heart rate and metabolism. Do anything to calm down besides xanax. Do your nails, paint, write, color a darn coloring book, but don't do anything that will make you more "up".
---no tv is bedroom now. Only sleeping is allowed in the bedroom. can't read before bed because I get too caught up in it and then stay up all night. The coloring book idea sounds like fun though. I'll try that one. I love to doodle. Maybe crosswords or something like that too.
>
> Good luck! There are sleep disorder clinics if this keeps up over a month or so. Most likely it's short term. Keep up the great exercise and stuff to offset any stress (even good stress). Let us know how it's going...and we better not see any submissions between 10pm and 8am! Jennifer
----Thanks for all the great ideas Jen. You do seem to be a person of lots of knowledge like Kath says. Thank you Kath for asking Jen to read my post. I love you guys for caring so much about my well-being. I hope we all sleep well tonight.
Hugs
Tina>
> > Hi Jennifer - I wondered if any of these physical symptoms bring anything to mind? I look to you as this lots-of-knowledge person.
> >
> > Kath
> >
> >
> > > Hey everybody: Still no sleep last night, well, maybe an hour. Just wired at bedtime. Took clonazepam and xanax but was still pretty energetic upon going to bed. Pacing and racing thoughts and I was shaky and fidgety. If you knew me, the fidgeting part would really surprise you. I don't fidget, ever. Always got slapped as a kid when I fidgetted so now I never do. Spent the night walking back and forth down the hall and drinking water and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy. Took more xanax and was able to fall asleep around 5 this morning but I woke up around 6-6:30 feeling groggy but right now I have the energy to run a marathon again. Geez, a little rest and relaxation would be nice. I used to want to sleep all day and now I just want to walk, pace and fidget. Am I losing my mind? Could this be a bi-polar manic episode? Help!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > hi tina,
> > > >
> > > > guess #1: med change (sometimes my sleep is whacky for a few weeks after a change)
> > > >
> > > > guess #2: environment change: quit smoking, exercising at different times, taking a medication that you used to take in the morning at night. (If you're like me -poor you - you may not only be emotionally sensitive, but also physically sensitive)
> > > >
> > > > guess #3: stress - but you'd probably know it if this was the case tina. Sounds like you take good care of yourself, which makes me think it's probably guess 1 or 2.
> > > >
> > > > Take care and hugs back. Janice
Posted by Jennifer on July 14, 2000, at 14:14:50
In reply to Re: Thoughts re Tina's 7/13 post? » Jennifer, posted by tina on July 14, 2000, at 9:40:55
Tina..looks like you're working on some great ways to increase sleep. The tea idea is awesome. Just do the "one hour" thing so you don't have to get up and pee 45 minutes after you fall asleep! I'm glad the nicotine is the last thing you would try, but remember, it's usually the physical part of smoking that people have a hard time giving up. That's why the patch works in so many people. If you've given up the habit, then the patch won't make you restart. Hey, remember, if you've been taking the Xanax regularly, you can have withdrawal (and won't sleep!), so be sure to taper down over 3 days or so. Good luck! Jennifer
> >Jennifer, I'm going to answer your post through your post ok:
>
> Tina,
> >
> > My, what a long thread! Seems like you may not be the only sleepless one! Kath suggested I read your 7/13 post, and I have ended up reading the entire darn thread. I don't envy you one bit. I hate sleeplessness! Anyway, here's my 2 cents, which mixes in with a lot of everyone else's thoughts:
> >
> > Hypoglycemia and "I'm a vegetarian"...hmmm, how balanced is your protien intake?
>
> -----Working on that now. Taking protein supplements on doc's orders. Amino acid breakdown or something like that anyway.
> >
> > Quit smoking...wow, that's awesome! It takes about two weeks for your body to adjust chemically to not having the nicotine, even if you don't have cravings. I have absolutely NO idea, but without the nicotine, could your meds be absorbed differently? Good question for the pdoc, or someone here. Also, if it keeps up, maybe you would do better with the nicotine patch (much more easy to regulate than the gum) that way you could slowly lower your levels over several weeks. No risk of nicotine tox since you're not having any cig's on top of it
>
>
> ---Don't want the patch. It's almost 2 weeks now and I want the nicotine out of my system as soon as possible so putting it back in in however small a dose is not an option I'd consider.
>
> >
> > Warm bath...great idea, but needs to be one hour before bedtime. You actually get tired from the cooling effect that occurs over the next hour.
>
>
> ----willing to try this one. I'll keep you posted
> >
> > Antioxidants...another awesome one to help conteract your bodies crud from the nicotine. As far as the homeopathic, watch that it isn't "true" homeopathic. Some just use that term for "natural" meds. Natural is great, but homeopathic is when they put only one part per million or billion of the stuff in purified water. If such a thing were possible, then an alcoholic would be able to drink "homeopathic" alcohol and not have withdrawal. Physiologically impossible! In other words, don't pay good money for a tiny half-oz bottle of clean water.
>
>
> ---thanks for the heads up about the watery remedies. I'll keep my eyes peeled. Thinking of trying some sleep teas before bed. I love herbal teas so it might be a good idea. Valerian, hops, passionflower. I'll give them all a try. Can't hurt anyway.
> >
> > Xanax and other benzo's...hey, not good for sleep at all. As a matter of fact your sleep gets all screwed up if you use these for sleep instead of anxiety. Your EEG will show all these spindles that are from the benzo use. Too much brain activity while trying to sleep! If your pdoc won't give you sleeping meds (which would be a great idea short term) how about good old Benadryl (dyphenhydramine HCL) 50mg one our before bed? It's the same as Sominex. I'd hate to use it more than two weeks though, once you get over all the nicotine stuff.
>
>
> -----you are right about the benzos messing up your sleep. I slept a little more last night but had the most awful nightmares, violent and really disheartening. Probably the benzos I took before bed. Maybe I'll try the benedryl too. I remember antihistamines making me drowsy so it's worth a try.
> >
> > Exercise...great for the body. Affects sleep in 2 ways. Morning exercise causes a decreased need for sleep, basically for every hr of workout, half-hour less sleep needed. Keep within reason though...This only works up to about 2 hr total decrease in sleep time. PM exercise is rotten for sleep. Your metabolism stays up for 4 hrs, and you can't sleep. No afternoon or PM exercise!
>
> ----I generally exercise in the afternoon. I'll try switching it to the morning and see if it helps.
>
> >
> > General sleep hygiene: Same sleep time and wake time within fifteen minutes every day. No naps. Bath one hour prior to bedtime. Milk, calcium, drugs :) one hour prior. Comfortable bed. No extra noise...use a fan or "white noise" machine if needed. Watch your pm diet. If you eat an early dinner with low carbo/protein, you are going hypoglycemic at night. Eat a nice balanced meal, and have a bedtime snack with your milk. Something long lasting. Not anything like graham crackers that spike your blood sugar and then drop it like a fly! Don't read or watch TV in bed. If it's too irresistable, get the TV out of there. Bed for sleeping only! If you can't sleep for over twenty to thirty minutes, get OUT OF BED and OUT of your room. Go downstairs and read. No online stuff, no movies. You may get caught up in it and won't go to bed when your body signals you to do so. Once tired again, try again...and again and again and again. Pacing? Don't. Increases that heart rate and metabolism. Do anything to calm down besides xanax. Do your nails, paint, write, color a darn coloring book, but don't do anything that will make you more "up".
>
>
> ---no tv is bedroom now. Only sleeping is allowed in the bedroom. can't read before bed because I get too caught up in it and then stay up all night. The coloring book idea sounds like fun though. I'll try that one. I love to doodle. Maybe crosswords or something like that too.
> >
> > Good luck! There are sleep disorder clinics if this keeps up over a month or so. Most likely it's short term. Keep up the great exercise and stuff to offset any stress (even good stress). Let us know how it's going...and we better not see any submissions between 10pm and 8am! Jennifer
> ----Thanks for all the great ideas Jen. You do seem to be a person of lots of knowledge like Kath says. Thank you Kath for asking Jen to read my post. I love you guys for caring so much about my well-being. I hope we all sleep well tonight.
> Hugs
> Tina
>
> >
> > > Hi Jennifer - I wondered if any of these physical symptoms bring anything to mind? I look to you as this lots-of-knowledge person.
> > >
> > > Kath
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey everybody: Still no sleep last night, well, maybe an hour. Just wired at bedtime. Took clonazepam and xanax but was still pretty energetic upon going to bed. Pacing and racing thoughts and I was shaky and fidgety. If you knew me, the fidgeting part would really surprise you. I don't fidget, ever. Always got slapped as a kid when I fidgetted so now I never do. Spent the night walking back and forth down the hall and drinking water and feeling like there were bugs crawling all over me and my skin was itchy like crazy. Took more xanax and was able to fall asleep around 5 this morning but I woke up around 6-6:30 feeling groggy but right now I have the energy to run a marathon again. Geez, a little rest and relaxation would be nice. I used to want to sleep all day and now I just want to walk, pace and fidget. Am I losing my mind? Could this be a bi-polar manic episode? Help!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > hi tina,
> > > > >
> > > > > guess #1: med change (sometimes my sleep is whacky for a few weeks after a change)
> > > > >
> > > > > guess #2: environment change: quit smoking, exercising at different times, taking a medication that you used to take in the morning at night. (If you're like me -poor you - you may not only be emotionally sensitive, but also physically sensitive)
> > > > >
> > > > > guess #3: stress - but you'd probably know it if this was the case tina. Sounds like you take good care of yourself, which makes me think it's probably guess 1 or 2.
> > > > >
> > > > > Take care and hugs back. Janice
Posted by tina on July 14, 2000, at 23:18:40
In reply to Re: back to tina, posted by Jennifer on July 14, 2000, at 14:14:50
hI all: It's after midnight on friday and I'm not sleepy. In fact, i'm fidgety, high-strung and a little freaky again. Feeling like I've had intravenous caffeine for 3 days. Really jittery. Trying not to pace Jennifer, by typing out my troubles on this board instead. I know for a fact "someone" out there is going to kill me in the morning when he reads this but like I said before, "it's better to talk then to act sometimes." I am beginning to really get frustrated with this sleep thing. It seems that as the hour gets later, I wake up more. When I hit 10 or so I am wired and jittery and anxious and pacing and the last thing I want to do is crawl into bed feeling like that. If this is just the nicotine withdrawal, when is it going to stop and why didn't I have it right after quitting. Is this some kind of delayed reaction? S**t!!I had the herbal tea, the hot bath, I even had the warm milk(allergic and all) but I feel even more "high" than last time this happened to me. This is some kind of freakish hell. It's not really panic attacks but like a constant pre-panic attack. just the racing pulse and pounding heart and serious need to run, fast and get out of here. If I wasn't car-less I'd probably be drivivng like a maniac down a deserted highway right now trying to clear my head. Thank god for psycho-babble. I can do something instead of pace and pull my hair out among other things. I have addressed the hypoglycemia issue by eating lots and regular today. high protein so as to account for the amino acid thing too. I have no idea what this is but it's awful. I feel like I have to move, run, burst out of my skin, I can't explain it properly. I just feel like I'm losing my mind and going completely out of control.
I came out of it the other night so I'm sure I'll come out of it tonight. I just wanted to rant a bit and keep myself busy while the xanax took effect(sorry Jen--really needed it tonight) Benzo's may not be good for sleep but they are good for general relaxation which is what I need right now. What causes this crazy, out of control, in a rush, must-do-everything-now-or-I'll-lose-my-mind episode? Does anyone understand this at all, am I making any sense or just rambling cuz I don't know anymore. Too much fog in my head. Oh, nevermind, ignore me. It'll stop eventually, always does. Just wish I could explain it or diagnose it or just chop it off and lead a normal life like everybody else.Oh, forget it. Goodnight everyone. I should delete this post but I'm nnot going to because if it made any sense maybe I'll get an explanation for this from onw of you out there. Thanks for listenign. Later.
Tina
Posted by Kath on July 14, 2000, at 23:30:45
In reply to Midnight and Im GOING NUTS-AGAIN--Oh Crap!!!!!, posted by tina on July 14, 2000, at 23:18:40
Hi Tina - don't know if you're hitting your "Refresh" button but I hear ya'. I'll post a longer one but send this first so you know you're not alone.
Kath
> hI all: It's after midnight on friday and I'm not sleepy. In fact, i'm fidgety, high-strung and a little freaky again. Feeling like I've had intravenous caffeine for 3 days. Really jittery. Trying not to pace Jennifer, by typing out my troubles on this board instead. I know for a fact "someone" out there is going to kill me in the morning when he reads this but like I said before, "it's better to talk then to act sometimes." I am beginning to really get frustrated with this sleep thing. It seems that as the hour gets later, I wake up more. When I hit 10 or so I am wired and jittery and anxious and pacing and the last thing I want to do is crawl into bed feeling like that. If this is just the nicotine withdrawal, when is it going to stop and why didn't I have it right after quitting. Is this some kind of delayed reaction? S**t!!I had the herbal tea, the hot bath, I even had the warm milk(allergic and all) but I feel even more "high" than last time this happened to me. This is some kind of freakish hell. It's not really panic attacks but like a constant pre-panic attack. just the racing pulse and pounding heart and serious need to run, fast and get out of here. If I wasn't car-less I'd probably be drivivng like a maniac down a deserted highway right now trying to clear my head. Thank god for psycho-babble. I can do something instead of pace and pull my hair out among other things. I have addressed the hypoglycemia issue by eating lots and regular today. high protein so as to account for the amino acid thing too. I have no idea what this is but it's awful. I feel like I have to move, run, burst out of my skin, I can't explain it properly. I just feel like I'm losing my mind and going completely out of control.
> I came out of it the other night so I'm sure I'll come out of it tonight. I just wanted to rant a bit and keep myself busy while the xanax took effect(sorry Jen--really needed it tonight) Benzo's may not be good for sleep but they are good for general relaxation which is what I need right now. What causes this crazy, out of control, in a rush, must-do-everything-now-or-I'll-lose-my-mind episode? Does anyone understand this at all, am I making any sense or just rambling cuz I don't know anymore. Too much fog in my head. Oh, nevermind, ignore me. It'll stop eventually, always does. Just wish I could explain it or diagnose it or just chop it off and lead a normal life like everybody else.Oh, forget it. Goodnight everyone. I should delete this post but I'm nnot going to because if it made any sense maybe I'll get an explanation for this from onw of you out there. Thanks for listenign. Later.
> Tina
Posted by Kath on July 14, 2000, at 23:39:24
In reply to Midnight and Im GOING NUTS-AGAIN--Oh Crap!!!!!, posted by tina on July 14, 2000, at 23:18:40
Hi Tina - What a bummer!! How sh--ty that this is going on & on & on. You know, when I was camping, I had an itchy rash on my hands & went to a walk-in clinic in Parry Sound & the doc suggested Benedryl tabs (50 mg I think it was). He said they might make me drowsy & BOY THEY DID. I took them before bed mostly, & would read a bit & then KONK out because they made me sleepy. At that point my Celexa was making me sleepy about 3/4 of an hour after taking it also, so I didn't get much reading done after taking my night meds. But I really wonder if Benedryl might be a good idea to try a bit before beditme?
Hey, guess what - along with similar family-member's names, and having the same health-reference "bible", & being Ontarians what else do you think we have in common? Guess............... it starts with the letter "V"...........it has to do with eating habits.............it's: Vegetarianism!!!
Just though you might find that interesting. I'm a lacto-vegetarian...have been for about 28 years of something like that. Both my kids were vegetarian since "in utero". My daughter still is; my son isn't. I'm just going to press the "Refresh" button to see if you know you're not alone burning the midnite oil.Hugs, Kath
> hI all: It's after midnight on friday and I'm not sleepy. In fact, i'm fidgety, high-strung and a little freaky again. Feeling like I've had intravenous caffeine for 3 days. Really jittery. Trying not to pace Jennifer, by typing out my troubles on this board instead. I know for a fact "someone" out there is going to kill me in the morning when he reads this but like I said before, "it's better to talk then to act sometimes." I am beginning to really get frustrated with this sleep thing. It seems that as the hour gets later, I wake up more. When I hit 10 or so I am wired and jittery and anxious and pacing and the last thing I want to do is crawl into bed feeling like that. If this is just the nicotine withdrawal, when is it going to stop and why didn't I have it right after quitting. Is this some kind of delayed reaction? S**t!!I had the herbal tea, the hot bath, I even had the warm milk(allergic and all) but I feel even more "high" than last time this happened to me. This is some kind of freakish hell. It's not really panic attacks but like a constant pre-panic attack. just the racing pulse and pounding heart and serious need to run, fast and get out of here. If I wasn't car-less I'd probably be drivivng like a maniac down a deserted highway right now trying to clear my head. Thank god for psycho-babble. I can do something instead of pace and pull my hair out among other things. I have addressed the hypoglycemia issue by eating lots and regular today. high protein so as to account for the amino acid thing too. I have no idea what this is but it's awful. I feel like I have to move, run, burst out of my skin, I can't explain it properly. I just feel like I'm losing my mind and going completely out of control.
> I came out of it the other night so I'm sure I'll come out of it tonight. I just wanted to rant a bit and keep myself busy while the xanax took effect(sorry Jen--really needed it tonight) Benzo's may not be good for sleep but they are good for general relaxation which is what I need right now. What causes this crazy, out of control, in a rush, must-do-everything-now-or-I'll-lose-my-mind episode? Does anyone understand this at all, am I making any sense or just rambling cuz I don't know anymore. Too much fog in my head. Oh, nevermind, ignore me. It'll stop eventually, always does. Just wish I could explain it or diagnose it or just chop it off and lead a normal life like everybody else.Oh, forget it. Goodnight everyone. I should delete this post but I'm nnot going to because if it made any sense maybe I'll get an explanation for this from onw of you out there. Thanks for listenign. Later.
> Tina
Posted by Kath on July 14, 2000, at 23:48:44
In reply to To TINA, posted by Kath on July 14, 2000, at 23:39:24
Tina - maybe you've been able to go to sleep. I hope so. Re: posting - ya' gotta' do what ya' gotta' do right? If it helps you keep sane, then go for it. I wonder if you can get some "not expired" Calm Fortes? I respect Jennifer's knowledge very much, but I have had lots of experience with homeopathics & even though the water-based ones have an infinitesimal amount (even unmeasurable) of active ingredients, my family & friends have had remarkable results from them. I imagine the lactose ones have the same amounts. You might want to read about how homeopathics were created & how they work to decide what you think.
Love, Kath
Posted by tina on July 15, 2000, at 10:19:03
In reply to Re: To TINA, posted by Kath on July 14, 2000, at 23:48:44
Hi Kath: Thanks for all those posts letting me know I wasn't alone. I always forget about the refresh option. We could have had a midnight chat. I was in such a state last night that I just got off the computer and started cleaning out the kitchen cupboards. They aren't that bad but they needed a little organizing and my hubby wasn't home so I knew I wasn't going to disturb anyone if I did it. So, there's one good thing that came out of my manic episode last night--got tidy cupboards now. I was quite a treat to wake up to that this morning. I did manage to fall asleep eventually but still woke up quite early this morning. My window was open and there were two cats going at it on the street. What a racket. Then the neighbor started his weed-whacker and that was it for sleeping. Oh well, I'm sure it'll stop eventually. Such is life right? I'm going to try some anti-histamines before bed since I'm suffering some terrible allergies anyway and see if they help.Thanks so much for wanting to be there for me last night. I only wish I HAD hit the refresh button. Wasn't really thinking too clearly at that point anyway. I hope you have a great weekend and I love ya hun. Take care-- Tina
- maybe you've been able to go to sleep. I hope so. Re: posting - ya' gotta' do what ya' gotta' do right? If it helps you keep sane, then go for it. I wonder if you can get some "not expired" Calm Fortes? I respect Jennifer's knowledge very much, but I have had lots of experience with homeopathics & even though the water-based ones have an infinitesimal amount (even unmeasurable) of active ingredients, my family & friends have had remarkable results from them. I imagine the lactose ones have the same amounts. You might want to read about how homeopathics were created & how they work to decide what you think.
>
> Love, Kath
Posted by CarolAnn on July 15, 2000, at 10:30:21
In reply to Midnight and Im GOING NUTS-AGAIN--Oh Crap!!!!!, posted by tina on July 14, 2000, at 23:18:40
Hey Tina,
this probably won't help you sleep, but I hope it will ease your anxiety a little.I read somewhere that there is such a thing as insomnia caused sleep 'phobia' (don't know if that's the right term). What happens is that after so many nights of not being able to get to sleep, you consciously or unconsciously begin fearing to even 'try' going to sleep. This would explain why you get more wired and jittery as 'sleep' time approaches. You are inwardly so worried that you won't sleep, that you begin to panic at the idea of trying to sleep.
Unfortunately, I don't really remember the solutions to this problem, except something like this: Keep very active during the day, but for as long as it takes, don't "try" to go to bed. Try not to think about whether or not you will sleep. Plan quiet activities that you can do(not in the bedroom), telling yourself that you don't 'have' to go to sleep. It may take several days to a week or more, but the main thing is to take the pressure of 'trying to sleep' off of yourself, by not planning to sleep. I really think that as long as there is nothing physically keeping you from sleeping, the above plan will work. You may still want to try Valerian(I would get it in pill form, for more concentrated effect), but just use it to relax yourself enough to do quiet activities at night, without the expectation of 'helping' you sleep. I really hope this method will work for you, I know that it was found to be extremely effective in the study I read. Good luck, CarolAnn
Posted by Sara T on July 15, 2000, at 12:45:35
In reply to Re: To TINA, posted by Kath on July 14, 2000, at 23:48:44
Tina-
I've been reading your thread and I sympathize greatly with you as I have gone through a bout with insomia lately too. Mine, however, was hormonal - perimenopause.
I've had good luck with Melatonin. But look for pharmaceutical grade Melatonin. It seems to me like somewhere I read that smoking may lower melatinon production, but don't take my word on that.
Also, being on the computer late at night will make you wired, IMHO.
Hope things get better soon,
Sara T.
Posted by tina on July 15, 2000, at 14:54:23
In reply to Re: To TINA, posted by Sara T on July 15, 2000, at 12:45:35
Thanks for the advice. I'll look into it. How's the little one? Terrible two's getting you down at all?
Love ya
Tina
> Tina-
>
> I've been reading your thread and I sympathize greatly with you as I have gone through a bout with insomia lately too. Mine, however, was hormonal - perimenopause.
>
> I've had good luck with Melatonin. But look for pharmaceutical grade Melatonin. It seems to me like somewhere I read that smoking may lower melatinon production, but don't take my word on that.
>
> Also, being on the computer late at night will make you wired, IMHO.
>
> Hope things get better soon,
>
> Sara T.
Posted by Kath on July 15, 2000, at 16:16:33
In reply to Re: To KATH, posted by tina on July 15, 2000, at 10:19:03
Hi Tina - Sorry we missed each other. Hope the anti-allergy tablets help you. You must be getting so tired.
Can't talk long now, but you're in my thoughts.
Warm thoughts & hugs, Kath
> Hi Kath: Thanks for all those posts letting me know I wasn't alone. I always forget about the refresh option. We could have had a midnight chat. I was in such a state last night that I just got off the computer and started cleaning out the kitchen cupboards. They aren't that bad but they needed a little organizing and my hubby wasn't home so I knew I wasn't going to disturb anyone if I did it. So, there's one good thing that came out of my manic episode last night--got tidy cupboards now. I was quite a treat to wake up to that this morning. I did manage to fall asleep eventually but still woke up quite early this morning. My window was open and there were two cats going at it on the street. What a racket. Then the neighbor started his weed-whacker and that was it for sleeping. Oh well, I'm sure it'll stop eventually. Such is life right? I'm going to try some anti-histamines before bed since I'm suffering some terrible allergies anyway and see if they help.Thanks so much for wanting to be there for me last night. I only wish I HAD hit the refresh button. Wasn't really thinking too clearly at that point anyway. I hope you have a great weekend and I love ya hun. Take care-- Tina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - maybe you've been able to go to sleep. I hope so. Re: posting - ya' gotta' do what ya' gotta' do right? If it helps you keep sane, then go for it. I wonder if you can get some "not expired" Calm Fortes? I respect Jennifer's knowledge very much, but I have had lots of experience with homeopathics & even though the water-based ones have an infinitesimal amount (even unmeasurable) of active ingredients, my family & friends have had remarkable results from them. I imagine the lactose ones have the same amounts. You might want to read about how homeopathics were created & how they work to decide what you think.
> >
> > Love, Kath
Posted by Jennifer on July 16, 2000, at 2:58:26
In reply to To TINA, posted by Kath on July 15, 2000, at 16:16:33
Dear Tina,
Are you awake? I just read your post from last night. I was doing some downloads into my computer and never had time to get over here. Sorry, I was up and maybe could have gotten into a "girl chat" with you and Kath. It's 12:51am right now, which I'm sure is more like 4am for you out there. I hope to goodness you are sleeping. I would like to know if you were able to try the Benadryl, and if it worked tonight. Also, after reading your post from last night, you were really in a "flight of ideas". Can you remind me again what medications you are on, and what time of the day you take them? I wanted to take one more gander at that since the 10pm is your real wire up time. Also, do you try to sleep before 10pm? It takes awhile to go into real deep sleep. You would need to take the Benadryl, and get to bed around 8:45 or so to try and psych out the 10pm "up time".
Well, I've added a little bit more down below in my typing, but as for now, good night, don't let the bed bugs bite. I've got to get to bed myself. You know you're either working hard, or having insomnia if you wake up the same day you go to bed. For me it's the working hard one today. I'll try and check back tonight. JenniferRe.. "homeopathics & even though the water-based ones have an infinitesimal amount (even unmeasurable) of active ingredients, my family & friends have had remarkable results from them."
>>I didn't mean to say that homeopathics didn't have the chance of some result. When doing a double blind study on a new medication, 50% of the people do not receive it, however a significant number will report positive effects from it. How? The placebo effect. Many people are angry or disagree with you if you tell them about the placebo effect, however it is actually a positive thing. By using this effect, people can lessen their symptoms without medications that may adversely effect their body. Why put something inside of you, if your brain has the ability to act in a similar manner?! Your brain will actually release chemicals due to what you believe, and cause a decrease in symptoms. This is a wonderful thing. In the olden days, nurses were allowed to give placebo's to patients, however that is no longer the case. Scientifically speaking only...if you have a kazillion water molecules, and one molecule of lactose, and you pour this evenly into 20 bottles, who got the molecule of lactose? :)
Hugs, Jen
Posted by tina on July 16, 2000, at 10:11:02
In reply to Re: To TINA, posted by Jennifer on July 16, 2000, at 2:58:26
Hey Jen: Thanks for the care and compassion. I haven't tried the Benedryl yet. Have to wait until I can scrape up some money. Just had some huge car repairs done and I have no job so I have no steady income. All these meds are already too expensive. In answer to your question, I take 600mg of moclobemide a day spread out over 4 meals. I take .5mg of clonazepam morning and evening and .5mg of xanax if I'm having a panic attack as needed. I took Celexa for a month and it gave me suicidal tendencies so I quit that. Been on the moclobemide for a little over 6 weeks now. Feeling exceedingly crappy day by day but I think that has a lot to do with the lack of sleep and not with the meds. I do try to go to bed before 10 but I can't seem to settle in. Don't know why. Will try the Benadryl when I can. Thanks again for caring so much.
Love
Tina> Dear Tina,
>
> Are you awake? I just read your post from last night. I was doing some downloads into my computer and never had time to get over here. Sorry, I was up and maybe could have gotten into a "girl chat" with you and Kath. It's 12:51am right now, which I'm sure is more like 4am for you out there. I hope to goodness you are sleeping. I would like to know if you were able to try the Benadryl, and if it worked tonight. Also, after reading your post from last night, you were really in a "flight of ideas". Can you remind me again what medications you are on, and what time of the day you take them? I wanted to take one more gander at that since the 10pm is your real wire up time. Also, do you try to sleep before 10pm? It takes awhile to go into real deep sleep. You would need to take the Benadryl, and get to bed around 8:45 or so to try and psych out the 10pm "up time".
> Well, I've added a little bit more down below in my typing, but as for now, good night, don't let the bed bugs bite. I've got to get to bed myself. You know you're either working hard, or having insomnia if you wake up the same day you go to bed. For me it's the working hard one today. I'll try and check back tonight. Jennifer
>
> Re.. "homeopathics & even though the water-based ones have an infinitesimal amount (even unmeasurable) of active ingredients, my family & friends have had remarkable results from them."
> >>I didn't mean to say that homeopathics didn't have the chance of some result. When doing a double blind study on a new medication, 50% of the people do not receive it, however a significant number will report positive effects from it. How? The placebo effect. Many people are angry or disagree with you if you tell them about the placebo effect, however it is actually a positive thing. By using this effect, people can lessen their symptoms without medications that may adversely effect their body. Why put something inside of you, if your brain has the ability to act in a similar manner?! Your brain will actually release chemicals due to what you believe, and cause a decrease in symptoms. This is a wonderful thing. In the olden days, nurses were allowed to give placebo's to patients, however that is no longer the case. Scientifically speaking only...if you have a kazillion water molecules, and one molecule of lactose, and you pour this evenly into 20 bottles, who got the molecule of lactose? :)
> Hugs, Jen
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