![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NikkiT on May 25, 2000, at 14:32:43
Well, saw the pdoc again today, and was in a pretty bad way while I was there, but was in and out within 10 minutes. he's changed the effexor to something called Nefazodone (Dutonin), 100mg a day for a week, then 200 mg. he said the effexor could ahve been causing the panic attacks, and said if I was no better in 3 weeks when I go back he's going to hospitilise me. I showed him my arm, and tried to explain the suicide thoughts, but he seemed in a real rush.
So yet more meds to try... when will this ever end. he also said the side effects when starting could be a bit rough... I really have had enough of all this.
Anyway, got home about 4 hours before my husband, and really felt like cutitng again, but managed to avoid it. My husband said I was very pale when he got in, and made me prove I hadn't cut again (which I think is pretty good).
Oh well, lets just hope these work...
Nikki xx
Posted by Tina1 on May 25, 2000, at 17:46:36
In reply to new meds yet again, posted by NikkiT on May 25, 2000, at 14:32:43
Hi Nikki: I am on the nefazodone too. Just started it yesterday and have been a little off all day today. It makes me feel a little sick, not really bad though. I am a low dose responder so everything makes me feel a little bit sick at first. The one good thing about taking it that I have already noticed is that I slept like a baby last night. It's been a while since I''ve said that. I had an overwhelming urge to slash my arm to bits yesterday but managed to put it off too, don't know how long that will last. It seems to relieve me faster than any med I've ever taken but it has to stop. I hate wearing long sleeves so much and explaining that I fell or played to rough with my dog. No one believes that anymore. I hope the nefazodone works for you and soon. I worry about you and think of you often. Do keep in touch, our situations do seem similar. What is your psych history, if you don't mind sharing? You can use my personal e-mail if you want, I'd love to hear from you. If you've written all of it down already in a past thread just tell me where to look and you won't have to re-write it. I'm just curious as to how similar our experience is, I know we have similar symptoms and I'm wondering about our backgrounds. Kind of like my own psychological study to see if "patients with similar life experience suffer from similar psychological disorders" Sounds like a ph.d thesis doesn't it? OR you can just tell me to go to hell and forget it. Keep in touch, luv ya--Tina
> Well, saw the pdoc again today, and was in a pretty bad way while I was there, but was in and out within 10 minutes. he's changed the effexor to something called Nefazodone (Dutonin), 100mg a day for a week, then 200 mg. he said the effexor could ahve been causing the panic attacks, and said if I was no better in 3 weeks when I go back he's going to hospitilise me. I showed him my arm, and tried to explain the suicide thoughts, but he seemed in a real rush.
>
> So yet more meds to try... when will this ever end. he also said the side effects when starting could be a bit rough... I really have had enough of all this.
>
> Anyway, got home about 4 hours before my husband, and really felt like cutitng again, but managed to avoid it. My husband said I was very pale when he got in, and made me prove I hadn't cut again (which I think is pretty good).
>
> Oh well, lets just hope these work...
>
> Nikki xx
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 18:36:34
In reply to Re: new meds yet again, posted by Tina1 on May 25, 2000, at 17:46:36
Nikki and Tina,
Nefazodone (called Serzone here in the States) works nicely for some people. Here are some things to look out for:
1. Initial side effects can indeed be rough. Many here have reported feeling rage and emotionality during the first few weeks, but that this wore off. Same deal with sedation, coordination and balance problems, fogginess. If you can get through the first month, these things are likely to go away.
2. As discussed by Adam and others above, it seems that some people react badly to a metabolite of nefazodone (what is left when the body begins to break the nefazodone down). One theory is a genetic vulnerability--perhaps a missing enzyme or something. Perhaps Adam can chime in here and explain this more (I know he can explain it *better*).
I find nefazodone helpful with sleep and to a certain extent, with anxiety. I recently increased my nefazodone dose and decreased my effexor dose, and I do feel better with this recipe than I did before. The effexor has a tendency to make me antsy, agitated, fidgety, sleepless.
I worry about you having to go through 3-4 weeks of hellish symptoms and difficult side effects on top of that. Is it possible for your doctor to prescribe an anxiolytic medicine for short term use to help if you have panic symptoms, during the period of time before the nefazodone really kicks and and the initial bad effects wear off?
Finally, the idea of the rushed interview with the doc really irks me. Do you have any alternatives? Perhaps a private doc for a one time consult just to get a more thorough evaluation of your med needs?
Posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 7:15:31
In reply to new meds yet again, posted by NikkiT on May 25, 2000, at 14:32:43
Well, I managed to fall asleep at 6am this morning (only for the alarm to go off at 7:20..) but I've worked out how to make my first million.. I'm going to getRidley Scott to make films of some of my dreams... This one was particularly bizarre!!! Can't wait to see if the new drug helps me sleep, I need some decent nights.
Noa, thanks for the info... I had read about Serzone, but didn't know that this was my new med..
Tina... My psych history. Don't actually know really. I guess (looking back) it all started in my teens, but it wasn't until 2 years ago I faced up to it and started seeking help. This was a few months after I had lost my dad (who I was incredibly close to - total daddies girl) and within a few months on a med (which I can't remember now for the life of me) I was fine. Met husband, moved away from home towm, found whole new life, everything was wonderful - Till middle of last year. Since then I have gone steadily down and down and down. On my 5th lot of meds since that time, and hopefully this is th eone for me.. as long as I get through these next few weeks.
You're only one day ahead of me on the serzone then?? I'll drop you an email so we can compare experiences - I too seem to get affected really easily by all side affects for a while.Good luck, and thanks tons
Nikki x
Posted by z on May 26, 2000, at 9:04:26
In reply to Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 7:15:31
nikki and tina,
z here. it seems like i'm asking this a lot lately
but have you tried paroxetine? i just told kelly
that i went through a time of death ideation and
paroxetine really brought me out of it!all the best,
z
Posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 10:59:10
In reply to Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 7:15:31
I know this will sound stupid.. but even though I'm not 100% sure, I am pretty sure I've been on that.. I'll ahve to check my box of left over meds when I get home though!
Actually, this is a silly point.. pdoc won't give me anymore sleeping pills inacse of addiction / over dose, yet in my left over meds box I have 3 boxes of 72 75mg Effexor, 1 month supply of Paxil and numerous others... I have SO much left over due to all the med changes!!
Nikki
Posted by Tina1 on May 26, 2000, at 11:19:31
In reply to Re: Tina, Noa and last night, posted by z on May 26, 2000, at 9:04:26
You know what? My main problem is the fact that I feel trapped. No matter what the situation, I can''t seem to let go of that. I know that I won't commit suicide even though I think about it because I'm too afraid to die. I am also, however, afraid to live. When I get like this I find myself wanting to do crazy things like skydiving or drag racing but I am always to afraid. I'm trapped in my fear and don't know how to get out. Meds might take away the panic attacks but they do nothing for the real fear of everything. I'm just kinda depressed today, feeling hopeless. I can't use suicide as a way out because of the fear so I am trapped. Sometimes I think the brave thing to do would be to die but I can't even do that. Sorry, just rambling. I get way too philosophical sometimes. Nikki, I love ya and feel for you and Noa, you're about the bravest person I know. Thanks for always listening.
z, I know you're new here but you've got some really good ideas so far, keep 'em coming and thanks for caring.> nikki and tina,
>
> z here. it seems like i'm asking this a lot lately
> but have you tried paroxetine? i just told kelly
> that i went through a time of death ideation and
> paroxetine really brought me out of it!
>
> all the best,
> z
Posted by ruth on May 26, 2000, at 12:36:01
In reply to Too afraid of everything, posted by Tina1 on May 26, 2000, at 11:19:31
I wonder if just starting with doing very small
things you're afraid of would help...instead of
trying to start with the big things like skydiving, etc.
Just try doing one small thing each day...for instance,
if you feel afraid of smiling at someone or just
saying "hi" to a stranger, try it, and praise and
reward yourself for doing the smallest thing.
Don't beat yourself up for being afraid, treat
yourself with kindness, treat yourself as you would
treat a scared child, with tenderness and encouragement.Baby steps, that's the key, I think.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 12:58:32
In reply to Re: Too afraid of everything, posted by ruth on May 26, 2000, at 12:36:01
Getting up every morning to face the day shows a ton of courage.
Nikki, Paxil is paroxetine. I thought it had a different name in the UK, though.
Have you been addicted before, or is the doc's fear just the generic one about anxiolytics.
there are things he could give you to help with sleep that are less conducive to addiction, I am sure. Anyway, I think you would only need it for a few weeks, because as soon as you are used to the Serzone, and are on enough of it, your sleep should improve.
Tina, Nikki, "hang in there." Keep on writing to us.
Posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 7:40:03
In reply to Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 7:15:31
yet again, it was day light when I fell alseep... nearly 6am. I can;t do this much more.
On another quick note.. Tattoos... when ever I've had a major crisis over the past couple of years, I've got a tattoo.. My most recent one - about 2 months ago, is pretty large. Was this my previous self harm release?? (the last one hurt like hell!)
Posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 7:44:47
In reply to Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 7:15:31
Ah ha.. the dreaded Paxil (Or seroxat as it is known in the UK)... Oooh no, never going near that little number again. It is, I believe, what has set me on such a destructive course at the moment. OK, I was depressed, but until this entered my system, I could just about cope. I think it was this med that pushed me over the edge as it were, and now I can't seem to find that rope ladder to get back on top again.
> Well, I managed to fall asleep at 6am this morning (only for the alarm to go off at 7:20..) but I've worked out how to make my first million.. I'm going to getRidley Scott to make films of some of my dreams... This one was particularly bizarre!!! Can't wait to see if the new drug helps me sleep, I need some decent nights.
>
> Noa, thanks for the info... I had read about Serzone, but didn't know that this was my new med..
>
> Tina... My psych history. Don't actually know really. I guess (looking back) it all started in my teens, but it wasn't until 2 years ago I faced up to it and started seeking help. This was a few months after I had lost my dad (who I was incredibly close to - total daddies girl) and within a few months on a med (which I can't remember now for the life of me) I was fine. Met husband, moved away from home towm, found whole new life, everything was wonderful - Till middle of last year. Since then I have gone steadily down and down and down. On my 5th lot of meds since that time, and hopefully this is th eone for me.. as long as I get through these next few weeks.
> You're only one day ahead of me on the serzone then?? I'll drop you an email so we can compare experiences - I too seem to get affected really easily by all side affects for a while.
>
> Good luck, and thanks tons
>
> Nikki x
Posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 9:13:13
In reply to Why is everything so bad at 5am?? Oh, and tattoos, posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 7:40:03
Hi Nikki: I gotta say yes to the tattoo thing. It might be your way of taking the pain out of your own hands because you feel so guilty when you do it yourself, just my humble opinion. I often wish someone else would hurt me so I didn't have to do it myself and wouldn't have to explain it to anyone. I also have hellish mornings. It takes a half hour just to convince myself that getting up is necessary. I am my most dizzy, depressed and anxious at about 7am and can't get up. I've been on the celexa for a month and I think it's not working. The Xanax makes me tired but doesn't do a thing for the anxiety and I had to stpo the serzone after 3 days because it made me so ill. Spent last night nauseated and totally doubled over. No more of that crap. I am getting really hopeless now. I don't necessarily disagree with tatoo's but I do think that someone should get one for the right reasons. If it's just the self-harm thing you should probably not do it but if you really like tatoos then go for it. I'm not saying self-harm is good but maybe it isn't the problem, maybe you like tatoos--do you? Anyway, sorry I'm not much help this morning, I'm having a bad day and I think it's only going to get worse. I'm tired, so tired of feeling this way. My doc tells me to get out and exercise, walk, see the world but I can't even get out of bed. I'm so screwed. Does psychotherapy help you? I've seen 4 psychiatrists in the last 3 years but it never helps. They give me meds and I try to talk about my problems but I don't have any. I have a husband that loves me Unconditionally, a great house, car, family that loves me even though they drive me nuts and a great dog. I have everything I could ever want but I can't be happy about it. I don't feel lucky or blessed. I feel cursed. Cursed to hurt as many people as I can, I'd like them all to go away so I don't have to cause anyone any more pain. I feel like an ungrateful bitch. The shrinks I go to tell me that I have everything and that meds will make me feel better about it but they poop out on me. I'm wallowing again--sorry. I'm just so sick of this crap. I hate to bring you down, I know you have your own troubles. I wish I could help you with them but in the end I guess we all have to help ourselves. I just don't know how, I'm at the end of my rope. In the opposite to you, I've got 10 rope ladders hanging down for me but I just don't know which one to climb. I'm afraid to climb the wrong one and it'll break and send me plummeting to the pits of hell again. I hope I haven't screwed up your day by my whining. Can't help you to day but I'm listening whenever you need an ear. Keep in touch and take care of yourself.---Tina
> yet again, it was day light when I fell alseep... nearly 6am. I can;t do this much more.
>
> On another quick note.. Tattoos... when ever I've had a major crisis over the past couple of years, I've got a tattoo.. My most recent one - about 2 months ago, is pretty large. Was this my previous self harm release?? (the last one hurt like hell!)
Posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 10:16:34
In reply to Re: Why is everything so bad at 5am?? Oh, and tattoos, posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 9:13:13
What time are you taking the serzone? When I first started taking it, the instructions from my pdoc were to take it at night. I had always taken the trazodone about 1 hour before desired bedtime, and within an hour, I was very sleepy. But with Serzone, I find it takes a number of hours. It is a much less intensely sedating drug for me than trazodone, but longer lasting. So, in the beginning, I was taking it at night, still having some difficulty falling asleep, and then having the most awful time trying to wake up in the morning. So, I began to take it much earlier, around 6pm. This has worked much better. Interestingly, while I was on lithium, for about 3 months, the serzone took effect very quickly, so during that period, I took the serzone before bed. But now that I am off lithium, I am back to the 6 pm dosing time. Except that sometimes I forget to have it with me, and take it later. On weekends, I am less vigilant about taking it early enough, because I can go to sleep later and sleep in later in the morning.
Posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 11:41:38
In reply to Re: Why is everything so bad at 5am?? Oh, and tattoos, posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 10:16:34
Were you asking me about the serzone Noa or Nikki? I took it at night because I am so sensitive to side effects. When I woke in the morning I was so nauseous and cranky I had to stop. The one thing I hate to be is nauseous. The doc told me if it makes me very ill that it's not for me and that I should stop. I need something though, I can't take it anymore.
> What time are you taking the serzone? When I first started taking it, the instructions from my pdoc were to take it at night. I had always taken the trazodone about 1 hour before desired bedtime, and within an hour, I was very sleepy. But with Serzone, I find it takes a number of hours. It is a much less intensely sedating drug for me than trazodone, but longer lasting. So, in the beginning, I was taking it at night, still having some difficulty falling asleep, and then having the most awful time trying to wake up in the morning. So, I began to take it much earlier, around 6pm. This has worked much better. Interestingly, while I was on lithium, for about 3 months, the serzone took effect very quickly, so during that period, I took the serzone before bed. But now that I am off lithium, I am back to the 6 pm dosing time. Except that sometimes I forget to have it with me, and take it later. On weekends, I am less vigilant about taking it early enough, because I can go to sleep later and sleep in later in the morning.
Posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 11:57:03
In reply to To Noa, posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 11:41:38
I was asking about both of you. Is your anxiety/agitation the same or worse right now? With serzone, I got very agitated initially, and was very emotional for a few weeks. That wore off.
Posted by Jennifer on May 27, 2000, at 12:18:54
In reply to Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 26, 2000, at 7:15:31
May want to check with an endocrinologist too. Might not help, but often in reponse to stress/depression/anxiety, the hormone, cortisol, is at higher levels in the body. Since this is your stress hormone, your body thinks you're stressed and won't let you sleep. Also affects your dreams too. (of course, so do all the above diagnoses too!) Cortisol usually turns on around 5 am to help you wake up. Obsviously you don't notice the rise...maybe because it's already there. Just another thought to help support the income of all the physician's, not just pdocs :o) Jen
> Well, I managed to fall asleep at 6am this morning (only for the alarm to go off at 7:20..) but I've worked out how to make my first million.. I'm going to getRidley Scott to make films of some of my dreams... This one was particularly bizarre!!! Can't wait to see if the new drug helps me sleep, I need some decent nights.
>
> Noa, thanks for the info... I had read about Serzone, but didn't know that this was my new med..
>
> Tina... My psych history. Don't actually know really. I guess (looking back) it all started in my teens, but it wasn't until 2 years ago I faced up to it and started seeking help. This was a few months after I had lost my dad (who I was incredibly close to - total daddies girl) and within a few months on a med (which I can't remember now for the life of me) I was fine. Met husband, moved away from home towm, found whole new life, everything was wonderful - Till middle of last year. Since then I have gone steadily down and down and down. On my 5th lot of meds since that time, and hopefully this is th eone for me.. as long as I get through these next few weeks.
> You're only one day ahead of me on the serzone then?? I'll drop you an email so we can compare experiences - I too seem to get affected really easily by all side affects for a while.
>
> Good luck, and thanks tons
>
> Nikki x
Posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 14:06:26
In reply to Re: Tina, Noa and last night, posted by Jennifer on May 27, 2000, at 12:18:54
I've only taken one serzone so far, and that was about 9:30pm last night. this will carry on for a week, when I will take on am and pm.
Had a very bad day, feel very sick, very dizzy, nearly fainting, so terribly tired, and now, at 8pm, so so scared I'll be spending yet another night like the last two. I cannot face that, but I don't know what I can do.
At least it's saturday, so I can drink myself to sleep!! But I'm also too scared to stay in bed longer, incase it affects the next nights sleep, plus, these dreams are so intense and so disturbing.
Tina - I don't actually get any psychotherapy. My pdoc deals just with the drugs it seems,a nd not any talking. Asked if I could get some therapy, and he said that it's not really something he arranges, and that my stress management classes in July will solve everything anyway.
So, I go onto my regular chat site (been chatting there for 3+ years, and actually met my husband there!!), stupidly opened upto someone, and now one of the b******s there has copied these posts I made, and is using them to wage a war against me, and telling everyone how metally ill I am, what a nutter I am, and whe I ever I argue my case, he is twisting everything saying I'm simply taking my metal illness out on him, and that I should not be listened to due to the fact I am "mad".
and now, my new little nephew is in the special care unit really poorely...
My head hurts!
Posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 15:17:04
In reply to Re: Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 14:06:26
Nikki, I am sorry to hear your nephew is not doing well. And that you are suffering, too. The chatroom you frequent--is it moderated? Is there any recourse to the harassment?
As for serzone--what about taking it earlier, maybe you will fall asleep earlier?
Alcohol might help you fall asleep, but it might also interfere with good sleep. Just keep that in mind.
Your doc said he doesn't arrange for you to see a psychotherapist. But can you arrange to see one on your own?
Is there anything you can occupy yourself with, even if for a short time, that is comforting or soothing or at least distracting? Is your hubbie around this weekend?
Posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 15:49:56
In reply to Re: Tina, Noa and last night, posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 14:06:26
I'm so sorry to hear about your nephew. I am also sorry that you are having a bad time of it too, understandable though. I'm not good company right now so I won't go on and on again, I'll just leave it at that. Please take care of yourself and my prayers are with your nephew and family.----tina
> I've only taken one serzone so far, and that was about 9:30pm last night. this will carry on for a week, when I will take on am and pm.
>
> Had a very bad day, feel very sick, very dizzy, nearly fainting, so terribly tired, and now, at 8pm, so so scared I'll be spending yet another night like the last two. I cannot face that, but I don't know what I can do.
>
> At least it's saturday, so I can drink myself to sleep!! But I'm also too scared to stay in bed longer, incase it affects the next nights sleep, plus, these dreams are so intense and so disturbing.
>
> Tina - I don't actually get any psychotherapy. My pdoc deals just with the drugs it seems,a nd not any talking. Asked if I could get some therapy, and he said that it's not really something he arranges, and that my stress management classes in July will solve everything anyway.
>
> So, I go onto my regular chat site (been chatting there for 3+ years, and actually met my husband there!!), stupidly opened upto someone, and now one of the b******s there has copied these posts I made, and is using them to wage a war against me, and telling everyone how metally ill I am, what a nutter I am, and whe I ever I argue my case, he is twisting everything saying I'm simply taking my metal illness out on him, and that I should not be listened to due to the fact I am "mad".
>
> and now, my new little nephew is in the special care unit really poorely...
>
> My head hurts!
Posted by juniper on May 28, 2000, at 3:15:54
In reply to Re: Why is everything so bad at 5am?? Oh, and tattoos, posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 9:13:13
tina,
many things that you said strike a chord of remembrance with me. i don't know if these are thoughts that many depressed people have, or thoughts that, well, at least two depressed people have had. i have certainly felt that all those i knew would be better off without me, because i do seem to cause many people pain. the pain seemed proportionate--the more i cared for a person, the more pain i'd cause them. now i think that maybe this was because those whom i truly cared for usually returned the sentiment, and my disclosures and closeness to them (which inevitably contained some pain as i was very depressed) hurt them because of their tremendous empathy. i went through a period where i'd say i was moderately sexually promiscuous, because i realized my worth in making others happy, and was amazed at the fact that i could actually feel pleasure. and i've felt like an ungrateful, unworthy bitch. i know now that i never was, but the feeling was there and undeniable. in fact, i really hated myself. that's hard. i felt powerless over my own thoughts and actions, and hated myself for my impotence in these matters. i think that with anyone else, i'd have felt compassion, not hate. and now, looking back over old journals, i feel disconnected from the girl who was in so much pain, and i feel sorry for her. and i know, in the way that everyone else knew, that she (i) was never a selfish bitch, and while i did cause many people whom i loved pain, they stepped into our relationship with open eyes and they chose to stick around. and i realize that i did not cause them only pain, but i sometimes gave them joy, insight, and loyalty.
it does not sound to me like your psychiatrists have much empathy or even fundamental psychological knowledge if they tell you that you have everything and that meds will make you feel better. they very well may, and hopefully will, but how can they judge that you have everything? you too say this, and i wonder if you borrowed this phrase from your psychiatrists, or if they borrowed it from you.
i've often thought that one of the worst things in the world would be that i reach my dream (which happens to be to own a little house in the mountains with a pottery wheel and a kiln, a kitten, and a job, involving helping others, that i adore) but i still call into work sick to stay home and cry, or hurt myself. it is scary to think that i can have everything i want (in one way), and that i can get by with an existance that seems enviable, yet still i'll know that my possibilities for happiness lie just over there, somehow out of reach.
obviously, you do not have everything. i am glad that you have a strong and loving support system, but what is it that really want for your children? i am going to assume that it is for them to be happy. obviously what you want for your children is something, and it is something that you are missing. i remember looking out my window at a gorgeous day, and feeling even sadder, because i didn't have the ability (as much as i wanted to) to enjoy it.
maybe talk therapy would help you....you say that you don't have any problems, but a trained therapist who is willing to work with you, and whom you connect with (though this search can take a while and be exhausting....but isn't it more exhausting to keep on living like this?) may be able to brainstorm ideas with you, and in talking regularly, you may (or may not) identify certain patterns, or feelings.
from all the posts i have read by you, you have never given the impression that you are remotely close to a selfish bitch. you appear to be very supportive, giving, and unpretentious. it is hard, but try to regard yourself with even half the love with which you regard your family. you're a part of each member, and deserve not only to love your parts in them, but in yourself also.good luck, and please keep posting your feelings and insights. it's not whining, it is acknowleging and taking a risk to share with others.
thanks,
juniper
Posted by Tina1 on May 28, 2000, at 10:00:57
In reply to a 4am post to tina, posted by juniper on May 28, 2000, at 3:15:54
Thank you juniper. It was sweet of you to answer my ramblings with such caring and compassion. This site is so full of rare unique individuals, I didn't know there was so much caring in the world until I found babble. I just wwanted to clarify something though--I have no children and don't plan to because I am positive that I would be a bad parent. If my mind ever changes on that score I think I would adopt because I believe that there are already so many children who don't have homes. I heard what you said and it hit home with me, gave me a lot to think about. Thank you for caring so much.--Tina
> tina,
> many things that you said strike a chord of remembrance with me. i don't know if these are thoughts that many depressed people have, or thoughts that, well, at least two depressed people have had. i have certainly felt that all those i knew would be better off without me, because i do seem to cause many people pain. the pain seemed proportionate--the more i cared for a person, the more pain i'd cause them. now i think that maybe this was because those whom i truly cared for usually returned the sentiment, and my disclosures and closeness to them (which inevitably contained some pain as i was very depressed) hurt them because of their tremendous empathy. i went through a period where i'd say i was moderately sexually promiscuous, because i realized my worth in making others happy, and was amazed at the fact that i could actually feel pleasure. and i've felt like an ungrateful, unworthy bitch. i know now that i never was, but the feeling was there and undeniable. in fact, i really hated myself. that's hard. i felt powerless over my own thoughts and actions, and hated myself for my impotence in these matters. i think that with anyone else, i'd have felt compassion, not hate. and now, looking back over old journals, i feel disconnected from the girl who was in so much pain, and i feel sorry for her. and i know, in the way that everyone else knew, that she (i) was never a selfish bitch, and while i did cause many people whom i loved pain, they stepped into our relationship with open eyes and they chose to stick around. and i realize that i did not cause them only pain, but i sometimes gave them joy, insight, and loyalty.
> it does not sound to me like your psychiatrists have much empathy or even fundamental psychological knowledge if they tell you that you have everything and that meds will make you feel better. they very well may, and hopefully will, but how can they judge that you have everything? you too say this, and i wonder if you borrowed this phrase from your psychiatrists, or if they borrowed it from you.
> i've often thought that one of the worst things in the world would be that i reach my dream (which happens to be to own a little house in the mountains with a pottery wheel and a kiln, a kitten, and a job, involving helping others, that i adore) but i still call into work sick to stay home and cry, or hurt myself. it is scary to think that i can have everything i want (in one way), and that i can get by with an existance that seems enviable, yet still i'll know that my possibilities for happiness lie just over there, somehow out of reach.
> obviously, you do not have everything. i am glad that you have a strong and loving support system, but what is it that really want for your children? i am going to assume that it is for them to be happy. obviously what you want for your children is something, and it is something that you are missing. i remember looking out my window at a gorgeous day, and feeling even sadder, because i didn't have the ability (as much as i wanted to) to enjoy it.
> maybe talk therapy would help you....you say that you don't have any problems, but a trained therapist who is willing to work with you, and whom you connect with (though this search can take a while and be exhausting....but isn't it more exhausting to keep on living like this?) may be able to brainstorm ideas with you, and in talking regularly, you may (or may not) identify certain patterns, or feelings.
> from all the posts i have read by you, you have never given the impression that you are remotely close to a selfish bitch. you appear to be very supportive, giving, and unpretentious. it is hard, but try to regard yourself with even half the love with which you regard your family. you're a part of each member, and deserve not only to love your parts in them, but in yourself also.
>
> good luck, and please keep posting your feelings and insights. it's not whining, it is acknowleging and taking a risk to share with others.
>
> thanks,
> juniper
Posted by juniper on May 28, 2000, at 16:38:52
In reply to Re: a 4am post to tina, posted by Tina1 on May 28, 2000, at 10:00:57
tina,
you are right that there are so many wonderful, unique and caring individuals here--it gives me faith (maybe not in humanity, but in individuals).
i am sorry to assume that you have children, i think i must have taken "family" to mean one with kids. i've got to watch silly assumptions like this. i hope that you are doing well, please keep in touch.good wishes,
juniper
Posted by Tina1 on May 28, 2000, at 21:24:37
In reply to Re: a 4am post to tina, posted by juniper on May 28, 2000, at 16:38:52
No prob J. not having children is a bone of contention between my mother and I but that's life. It wasn't silly to think I had kids. after reading my post again it did sound like I eluded to having kids. Ireally am at my wits end with this bout, I'm in round 4 and the ref is about to call it a k.o. Lost and confused. Thanks for caring Hugs--Tina
> tina,
> you are right that there are so many wonderful, unique and caring individuals here--it gives me faith (maybe not in humanity, but in individuals).
> i am sorry to assume that you have children, i think i must have taken "family" to mean one with kids. i've got to watch silly assumptions like this. i hope that you are doing well, please keep in touch.
>
> good wishes,
> juniper
Posted by juniper on May 29, 2000, at 4:09:35
In reply to Re: apost to Juniper, posted by Tina1 on May 28, 2000, at 21:24:37
having or not having children is obviously a personal choice, but i think in this society sometimes a woman's worth is tied into her uterus. as if we don't have enough expectations to begin with.
i use the phrase down for the count sometimes---when i am exactly this. you seem to be thinking about changing meds, have you thought any more about this? if xanax is not working for anxiety then maybe it would be a good idea to try klonopin, or another anti-anxiety med. these medications are usually easier to switch than antidepressants because they don't remain in your system as long and show results quickly. i'd say it is worth a try. if you keep doing what you've done, you will keep getting what you've gotten. sometimes i think that just because time passes i should be feeling better, but time doesn't change things, i have to actively do that. it makes sense, it's just hard to grasp.
have you thought about finding a talk therapist?(i'm going to be computerless for the next couple days, as i make my way to grad. school, but i'll be sending extra powerful good wishes, and prayers, your way)
peace,
juniper
This is the end of the thread.
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