![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 61. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 4:26:06
I can't seem to access my previous post on Adrafinil and Amisulpride. To make a long story short, Adrafinil has been wonderful at treating my longstanding stubborn anhedonia. Finally something that works! Yes!!
It's hard to find much information on Adrafinil. But the stuff I did find--posted below--I can say from personal experience is completely true. Everything this literature says about Adrafinil is absolutely true and accurate. The drug is everything the literature says it is. What a wonderful medication! Adrafinil...SALUTE!!!
ADRAFINIL: What is; (a.k.a. Olmifon) (Description & information below)
NOTE:not to be confused with "Anafranil (a.k.a. clomipramine)" the Antidepressant.Adrafinil provides alertness in most without the feeling often felt with stimulants that usually are prescribed for a person with
narcolepsy. Such as amphetamines etc. Also the possibility of tolerance is low with its continued use. There is however a
need for certain Liver function tests
on a regular basis with its continued use. Normally the same types of required testing as with the medication " cylert " which is
commonly prescribed in the USA. It is also used in certain parts europe as a "antidepressant". It is the combination of
Adrafinil's releasing stimulantive arousal effect(s), and its antidepressant effects that some doctors in europe recommend
Adrafinil over its newer form of Modafinil. There have been studies done in the United States "measuring depression in
individuals with sleep disorders",. In one study it was suggested that the
"rate of narcolepsy and depression is estimated to be between 30-52%".
ADRAFINIL (Olmifon)Rapidly restores vigilance and alertness in older people and the physically and mentally tired. Has a powerful
antidepressant action far superior to that of fluoxetine (Prozac) and clomipramine (Anafranil) and is without any serious
side effects. Adrafinil restores your powers of concentration, memory and intellectual function. When administered to
older people who have lost interest in life, adrafinil makes them want to take part in life again and they find that they
have renewed energy and vigor. Adrafinil may be correctly described as an anti-aging drug because it directly combats
degeneration in the part of the brain that allows you to take pleasure in life. Elderly people very often have disturbed
sleep patterns and take many naps during the day. Adrafinil restores a youthful sleep/wake cycle of full alertness in the
daytime and deep restorative sleep at night. After several weeks of treatment with Adrafinil daytime sleepiness
disappears, interest in intellectual activity is restored and depression lifts. It is very important to note that this improved
quality of alertness is NOT accompanied with mental excitation and insomnia as occurs with amphetamine or caffeine.
The correct dosage is 300 to 600 mg per day. The dosage can be adjusted according to response. Remember it takes
three weeks for all the effects of Adrafinil to become apparent. Do not use Adrafinil if you have any type of kidney or liver
problem or if you suffer from epilepsy.Where all other drugs have failed, Adrafinil has quickly become the star my show. I can't say enough good about it. JohnL
Posted by Aylse on April 14, 2000, at 9:17:54
In reply to Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 4:26:06
JohnL,
What marvelous news. Such a blessing for you. I have long read your kind and helpful posts to others and have wished there was help for you. God bless you...it's about time!
Aylse
Posted by elise on April 14, 2000, at 15:17:45
In reply to Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 4:26:06
> I can't seem to access my previous post on Adrafinil and Amisulpride. To make a long story short, Adrafinil has been wonderful at treating my longstanding stubborn anhedonia. Finally something that works! Yes!!
>
> It's hard to find much information on Adrafinil. But the stuff I did find--posted below--I can say from personal experience is completely true. Everything this literature says about Adrafinil is absolutely true and accurate. The drug is everything the literature says it is. What a wonderful medication! Adrafinil...SALUTE!!!
>
>
> ADRAFINIL: What is; (a.k.a. Olmifon) (Description & information below)
> NOTE:not to be confused with "Anafranil (a.k.a. clomipramine)" the Antidepressant.
>
> Adrafinil provides alertness in most without the feeling often felt with stimulants that usually are prescribed for a person with
> narcolepsy. Such as amphetamines etc. Also the possibility of tolerance is low with its continued use. There is however a
> need for certain Liver function tests
> on a regular basis with its continued use. Normally the same types of required testing as with the medication " cylert " which is
> commonly prescribed in the USA. It is also used in certain parts europe as a "antidepressant". It is the combination of
> Adrafinil's releasing stimulantive arousal effect(s), and its antidepressant effects that some doctors in europe recommend
> Adrafinil over its newer form of Modafinil. There have been studies done in the United States "measuring depression in
> individuals with sleep disorders",. In one study it was suggested that the
> "rate of narcolepsy and depression is estimated to be between 30-52%".
>
>
> ADRAFINIL (Olmifon)
>
> Rapidly restores vigilance and alertness in older people and the physically and mentally tired. Has a powerful
> antidepressant action far superior to that of fluoxetine (Prozac) and clomipramine (Anafranil) and is without any serious
> side effects. Adrafinil restores your powers of concentration, memory and intellectual function. When administered to
> older people who have lost interest in life, adrafinil makes them want to take part in life again and they find that they
> have renewed energy and vigor. Adrafinil may be correctly described as an anti-aging drug because it directly combats
> degeneration in the part of the brain that allows you to take pleasure in life. Elderly people very often have disturbed
> sleep patterns and take many naps during the day. Adrafinil restores a youthful sleep/wake cycle of full alertness in the
> daytime and deep restorative sleep at night. After several weeks of treatment with Adrafinil daytime sleepiness
> disappears, interest in intellectual activity is restored and depression lifts. It is very important to note that this improved
> quality of alertness is NOT accompanied with mental excitation and insomnia as occurs with amphetamine or caffeine.
> The correct dosage is 300 to 600 mg per day. The dosage can be adjusted according to response. Remember it takes
> three weeks for all the effects of Adrafinil to become apparent. Do not use Adrafinil if you have any type of kidney or liver
> problem or if you suffer from epilepsy.
>
> Where all other drugs have failed, Adrafinil has quickly become the star my show. I can't say enough good about it. JohnLjohn, i started to take provigil yesterday. I am curious as to how it differs from adrafinil. Am I correct in assuming that adrafinil also has a n antidepressent component to it? How would you compare dosage to dosage with provigil? Did you get agitated at all at the beginning taking it, like I was somewhat today at 200 mg. provigil??? Do you know if provigil has a cumulative effect also? Have you taken prozac ---that is what i take also and am very anxious, so i also take neurontin with it. Sorry to ramble, i am not sure what to do!!!! thanks, elise
Posted by JanetR on April 14, 2000, at 16:47:39
In reply to Re: Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by elise on April 14, 2000, at 15:17:45
>
>
> > I can't seem to access my previous post on Adrafinil and Amisulpride. To make a long story short, Adrafinil has been wonderful at treating my longstanding stubborn anhedonia. Finally something that works! Yes!!
> >
> > It's hard to find much information on Adrafinil. But the stuff I did find--posted below--I can say from personal experience is completely true. Everything this literature says about Adrafinil is absolutely true and accurate. The drug is everything the literature says it is. What a wonderful medication! Adrafinil...SALUTE!!!
> >
> >
> > ADRAFINIL: What is; (a.k.a. Olmifon) (Description & information below)
> > NOTE:not to be confused with "Anafranil (a.k.a. clomipramine)" the Antidepressant.
> >
> > Adrafinil provides alertness in most without the feeling often felt with stimulants that usually are prescribed for a person with
> > narcolepsy. Such as amphetamines etc. Also the possibility of tolerance is low with its continued use. There is however a
> > need for certain Liver function tests
> > on a regular basis with its continued use. Normally the same types of required testing as with the medication " cylert " which is
> > commonly prescribed in the USA. It is also used in certain parts europe as a "antidepressant". It is the combination of
> > Adrafinil's releasing stimulantive arousal effect(s), and its antidepressant effects that some doctors in europe recommend
> > Adrafinil over its newer form of Modafinil. There have been studies done in the United States "measuring depression in
> > individuals with sleep disorders",. In one study it was suggested that the
> > "rate of narcolepsy and depression is estimated to be between 30-52%".
> >
> >
> > ADRAFINIL (Olmifon)
> >
> > Rapidly restores vigilance and alertness in older people and the physically and mentally tired. Has a powerful
> > antidepressant action far superior to that of fluoxetine (Prozac) and clomipramine (Anafranil) and is without any serious
> > side effects. Adrafinil restores your powers of concentration, memory and intellectual function. When administered to
> > older people who have lost interest in life, adrafinil makes them want to take part in life again and they find that they
> > have renewed energy and vigor. Adrafinil may be correctly described as an anti-aging drug because it directly combats
> > degeneration in the part of the brain that allows you to take pleasure in life. Elderly people very often have disturbed
> > sleep patterns and take many naps during the day. Adrafinil restores a youthful sleep/wake cycle of full alertness in the
> > daytime and deep restorative sleep at night. After several weeks of treatment with Adrafinil daytime sleepiness
> > disappears, interest in intellectual activity is restored and depression lifts. It is very important to note that this improved
> > quality of alertness is NOT accompanied with mental excitation and insomnia as occurs with amphetamine or caffeine.
> > The correct dosage is 300 to 600 mg per day. The dosage can be adjusted according to response. Remember it takes
> > three weeks for all the effects of Adrafinil to become apparent. Do not use Adrafinil if you have any type of kidney or liver
> > problem or if you suffer from epilepsy.
> >
> > Where all other drugs have failed, Adrafinil has quickly become the star my show. I can't say enough good about it. JohnL
>
> john, i started to take provigil yesterday. I am curious as to how it differs from adrafinil. Am I correct in assuming that adrafinil also has a n antidepressent component to it? How would you compare dosage to dosage with provigil? Did you get agitated at all at the beginning taking it, like I was somewhat today at 200 mg. provigil??? Do you know if provigil has a cumulative effect also? Have you taken prozac ---that is what i take also and am very anxious, so i also take neurontin with it. Sorry to ramble, i am not sure what to do!!!! thanks, eliseDear John, congratulatins! you deserve it. Is adrafinil an alternative to stimulants for ADD? Best Wishes Jan
Posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 17:46:10
In reply to Re: Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by elise on April 14, 2000, at 15:17:45
> john, i started to take provigil yesterday. I am curious as to how it differs from adrafinil. Am I correct in assuming that adrafinil also has a n antidepressent component to it? How would you compare dosage to dosage with provigil? Did you get agitated at all at the beginning taking it, like I was somewhat today at 200 mg. provigil??? Do you know if provigil has a cumulative effect also? Have you taken prozac ---that is what i take also and am very anxious, so i also take neurontin with it. Sorry to ramble, i am not sure what to do!!!! thanks, eliseElise,
Other than the fact that Modafinil is a very close descendent of Adrafinil, I really don't know much about it. I suspect they have many similarities, though perhaps some subtle differences as well. According to the literature I dug up, the Europeans who use these as antidepressants prefer Adrafinil. But you know how that is...we all respond so differently. As an earlier post proves, Modafinil can cause euphoria. Sounds like pretty good antidepressant action to me!To answer your question, I did not experience any agitation when starting Adrafinil. I certainly expected to though, because every other norepinephrine drug I've tried has caused agitation and/or worsened depression. I definitely had low expectations for it when I started Adrafinil. Whether Modafinil is the same or not, I don't know. As far as I do know though, Modafinil does indeed have a cumulative effect. Though you may feel it doing something immediately, it really takes days to weeks for it to fully work. Similar to antidepressants.
Since it is nearly impossible to find anything in literature pertaining to either of these drugs being used in depression, I believe they are very overlooked. In Europe--as the literature I posted shows--Adrafinil is prescribed as an antidepressant (even though it's technically a psychostimulant). I would assume Modafinil is very similar. The biggest difference I think is the cost. Adrafinil is way cheaper.
Up until about a month ago, I had been on Prozac for over a year. It definitely saved me from the clutches of depression, but did nothing to cure my anhedonia. I was undepressed yet lifeless. It wasn't until I stopped taking Prozac that I realized how badly it had been affecting my sleep, how it caused anxiety that I wasn't quite aware of, and how it basically numbed me so that nothing could possibly have cured my anhedonia as long as Prozac was in the mix. Prozac definitely had some merits, but it created some handicaps as well. I still have a little in my system. I think I could keep using it, but only at about 5mg a day. Any more than that actually creates more problems than it fixes. For me anyway.
So, what to do? Good question. Been there too many times. Things get confusing when we are starting one drug and hoping to stop another. Keep in mind Prozac's very long halflife (about 9 days) allows you to stop taking it abruptly at any time smoothly. It will still linger for more than a week. So if you want to taper down or stop, to see how the Modafinil does on its own, that's no problem. Just keep in the back of your mind the possibility of starting up the Prozac again if you notice yourself deteriorating quickly. Best to get back to where you were before making any other adjustments in that case. And as my pdoc always tried to impress on me...one thing at a time. So you might want to just keep the Neurontin right where it is until you are more aware of what Modafinil is doing.
Posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 17:57:10
In reply to Re: Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by JanetR on April 14, 2000, at 16:47:39
Is adrafinil an alternative to stimulants for ADD? Best Wishes Jan
Yes. Adrafinil is prescribed for symptoms of ADD or ADHD as well as narcolepsy. It's hard to make out the French language on the package label, but that's what it appears to say. The package label has it classified as a psychostimulant. I've also tried Ritalin, which worked immediately! But it worked too good...very abusive and addictive in my possession. Also tried Adderall. It too worked immediately, much smoother. It provided energy but no benefit in mood or motivation. Adrafinil is providing good mood, energy, motivation, and interest. I almost feel...well..."normal". But it hasn't even been a month yet, so we'll have to see how it goes. So far so good. It wouldn't be the first time an ADD medication cured depression, just as sometimes antidepressants cure ADD. As I always say, it all depends on the person's underlying chemistry.
Posted by elise on April 14, 2000, at 21:53:23
In reply to Re: Adrafinil vs Modafinil...Elise., posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 17:46:10
>
> > john, i started to take provigil yesterday. I am curious as to how it differs from adrafinil. Am I correct in assuming that adrafinil also has a n antidepressent component to it? How would you compare dosage to dosage with provigil? Did you get agitated at all at the beginning taking it, like I was somewhat today at 200 mg. provigil??? Do you know if provigil has a cumulative effect also? Have you taken prozac ---that is what i take also and am very anxious, so i also take neurontin with it. Sorry to ramble, i am not sure what to do!!!! thanks, elise
>
> Elise,
> Other than the fact that Modafinil is a very close descendent of Adrafinil, I really don't know much about it. I suspect they have many similarities, though perhaps some subtle differences as well. According to the literature I dug up, the Europeans who use these as antidepressants prefer Adrafinil. But you know how that is...we all respond so differently. As an earlier post proves, Modafinil can cause euphoria. Sounds like pretty good antidepressant action to me!
>
> To answer your question, I did not experience any agitation when starting Adrafinil. I certainly expected to though, because every other norepinephrine drug I've tried has caused agitation and/or worsened depression. I definitely had low expectations for it when I started Adrafinil. Whether Modafinil is the same or not, I don't know. As far as I do know though, Modafinil does indeed have a cumulative effect. Though you may feel it doing something immediately, it really takes days to weeks for it to fully work. Similar to antidepressants.
>
> Since it is nearly impossible to find anything in literature pertaining to either of these drugs being used in depression, I believe they are very overlooked. In Europe--as the literature I posted shows--Adrafinil is prescribed as an antidepressant (even though it's technically a psychostimulant). I would assume Modafinil is very similar. The biggest difference I think is the cost. Adrafinil is way cheaper.
>
> Up until about a month ago, I had been on Prozac for over a year. It definitely saved me from the clutches of depression, but did nothing to cure my anhedonia. I was undepressed yet lifeless. It wasn't until I stopped taking Prozac that I realized how badly it had been affecting my sleep, how it caused anxiety that I wasn't quite aware of, and how it basically numbed me so that nothing could possibly have cured my anhedonia as long as Prozac was in the mix. Prozac definitely had some merits, but it created some handicaps as well. I still have a little in my system. I think I could keep using it, but only at about 5mg a day. Any more than that actually creates more problems than it fixes. For me anyway.
>
> So, what to do? Good question. Been there too many times. Things get confusing when we are starting one drug and hoping to stop another. Keep in mind Prozac's very long halflife (about 9 days) allows you to stop taking it abruptly at any time smoothly. It will still linger for more than a week. So if you want to taper down or stop, to see how the Modafinil does on its own, that's no problem. Just keep in the back of your mind the possibility of starting up the Prozac again if you notice yourself deteriorating quickly. Best to get back to where you were before making any other adjustments in that case. And as my pdoc always tried to impress on me...one thing at a time. So you might want to just keep the Neurontin right where it is until you are more aware of what Modafinil is doing.john,
thanks for your answer to my questions! I have been on prozac for probably 6 years....and never realized how much i really was affected negatively until you mentioned your problems with it! I thought it was just me. I never really thought that maybe the anxiety i felt was compounded by the prozac ---that's why i was put on neurontin! I think i will decrease my prozac to 20 mg. tomorrow and go to 100 mg. modafinal also and give it a few days. Will let you guys know how it goes. thanks again. elise
Posted by JohnL on April 15, 2000, at 3:45:49
In reply to Re: Adrafinil vs Modafinil... john, posted by elise on April 14, 2000, at 21:53:23
> john,
> thanks for your answer to my questions! I have been on prozac for probably 6 years....and never realized how much i really was affected negatively until you mentioned your problems with it! I thought it was just me. I never really thought that maybe the anxiety i felt was compounded by the prozac ---that's why i was put on neurontin! I think i will decrease my prozac to 20 mg. tomorrow and go to 100 mg. modafinal also and give it a few days. Will let you guys know how it goes. thanks again. eliseElise,
It's strange how the negative effects of Prozac were so subtle that I didn't realize it was the Prozac. One day I figured oh what the heck, and did 80mg Prozac. There is a strategy with Prozac where large doses can be taken every few days instead of smaller doses daily. So I thought I would play with it. A few hours after dosing the 80mg, I became agitated, withdrawn, numb, and even more depressed. I spent the rest of the day curled up on a couch totally withdrawn. It was only then that I recognized the anxiety created by Prozac. I had read in literature about the common side effects of anxiety with Prozac, but I figured I must be immune because it didn't seem to have any side effects at all...other than lousy sleep quality. But after that 80mg, I came to know the negative side effects, and realized I had them all along...just more subtle at lower doses. I thought it was just me. But it wasn't. It was the drug.Since then I have experimented more, and discovered that 5mg is helpful...better than none at all. At 10mg I think I'm on the borderline where that anxiety stuff starts to kick in. So for me, 5mg to 10mg a day is about the limit. More is not always better.
Anyway, like I mentioned earlier, stopping or lowering Prozac abruptly is no problem, if you want to try experimenting with doses. You might find 20mg every other day, or once every three days, is better than any dose taken on a daily basis. Even if you skip a day or two, it's still in your system doing its job. It takes 9 days to be half gone. But of course, the possibility always exists that you may need a higher dose taken daily. In that case, another med to reduce the anxiety side effects would be warranted. My favorite for such a remedy is 2.5mg to 5mg Zyprexa. Not the benzos or anticonvulsants. But as we discussed earlier, one thing at a time...so we know what each modification's results are. Don't want to confuse things too much. I'm wishing you the best. JohnL
Posted by elise on April 15, 2000, at 10:28:34
In reply to Re: Prozac...Elise, posted by JohnL on April 15, 2000, at 3:45:49
>
> > john,
> > thanks for your answer to my questions! I have been on prozac for probably 6 years....and never realized how much i really was affected negatively until you mentioned your problems with it! I thought it was just me. I never really thought that maybe the anxiety i felt was compounded by the prozac ---that's why i was put on neurontin! I think i will decrease my prozac to 20 mg. tomorrow and go to 100 mg. modafinal also and give it a few days. Will let you guys know how it goes. thanks again. elise
>
> Elise,
> It's strange how the negative effects of Prozac were so subtle that I didn't realize it was the Prozac. One day I figured oh what the heck, and did 80mg Prozac. There is a strategy with Prozac where large doses can be taken every few days instead of smaller doses daily. So I thought I would play with it. A few hours after dosing the 80mg, I became agitated, withdrawn, numb, and even more depressed. I spent the rest of the day curled up on a couch totally withdrawn. It was only then that I recognized the anxiety created by Prozac. I had read in literature about the common side effects of anxiety with Prozac, but I figured I must be immune because it didn't seem to have any side effects at all...other than lousy sleep quality. But after that 80mg, I came to know the negative side effects, and realized I had them all along...just more subtle at lower doses. I thought it was just me. But it wasn't. It was the drug.
>
> Since then I have experimented more, and discovered that 5mg is helpful...better than none at all. At 10mg I think I'm on the borderline where that anxiety stuff starts to kick in. So for me, 5mg to 10mg a day is about the limit. More is not always better.
>
> Anyway, like I mentioned earlier, stopping or lowering Prozac abruptly is no problem, if you want to try experimenting with doses. You might find 20mg every other day, or once every three days, is better than any dose taken on a daily basis. Even if you skip a day or two, it's still in your system doing its job. It takes 9 days to be half gone. But of course, the possibility always exists that you may need a higher dose taken daily. In that case, another med to reduce the anxiety side effects would be warranted. My favorite for such a remedy is 2.5mg to 5mg Zyprexa. Not the benzos or anticonvulsants. But as we discussed earlier, one thing at a time...so we know what each modification's results are. Don't want to confuse things too much. I'm wishing you the best. JohnLa few weeks ago i had been depressed and increased my dosage (per doc's ok) to 60 mg. day. A week later, i was sooo manic and that i painted my whole living and dining room myself and was so agitated that i was didn't know what hit me. I guess i know now. Thanks for the tip---I will try the 20 mg. tomorrow (of course i already forgot and took 30 mg. today --- but I only took 100 mg. provigil) . thanks again, elise
Posted by noa on April 15, 2000, at 14:08:50
In reply to Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 4:26:06
John, this is encouraging, to hear you say you might enjoy something, look forward to something.
I have tried in vain thus far to get info on adrafinil on the net. In pubmed, the only abstracts my search produced were animal studies. There was one site with info in French, but, alors, mon frances c'est tres tres mal.
I don't know if you have read Adam's recent posts about oral selegline, now that he is off the patch study. He is finding it a bit too stimulating, and it seems to be causing OCD-spectrum symptoms, such as nail biting, scratching, etc. I also have such problems, including skin picking (which I have discovered today is being termed a number of things, including "dermotillomania", "neurotic excoriation", etc.), and I am wondering if it is caused or made worse by effexor or ritalin, both of which are very activating/stimulating in my system. So, while I am curious as to whether adrafinil might be something I should try, I also wonder if it is too much in that stimulating camp for me.
John, I hope this turns out to be a long term success for you. Please keep us posted.
Posted by Ant-Rock on April 15, 2000, at 15:06:10
In reply to Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 4:26:06
Hi John, First of all, way to go with finding your new med. I'm sure you've waited a long time to feel this well and you deserve this breakthrough. I'm truly happy for you. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a lot from you and the many others here.
I do have a question,
would combining adrafanil & Ritalin be a bad idea. I only take 10mg/day ritalin and it hasn't hepled me with my biggest problem which is anhedonia. I feel much the same way you described, and reading about your success has peaked my interest in this med. I see my p-doc this week and had planned on asking to increase the ritalin, but now maybe adding adrafanil instead of increasing would be a better idea. Any suggestions?Anthony
Posted by elise on April 15, 2000, at 17:05:45
In reply to Re: Prozac...Elise, posted by JohnL on April 15, 2000, at 3:45:49
>
> > john,
> > thanks for your answer to my questions! I have been on prozac for probably 6 years....and never realized how much i really was affected negatively until you mentioned your problems with it! I thought it was just me. I never really thought that maybe the anxiety i felt was compounded by the prozac ---that's why i was put on neurontin! I think i will decrease my prozac to 20 mg. tomorrow and go to 100 mg. modafinal also and give it a few days. Will let you guys know how it goes. thanks again. elise
>
> Elise,
> It's strange how the negative effects of Prozac were so subtle that I didn't realize it was the Prozac. One day I figured oh what the heck, and did 80mg Prozac. There is a strategy with Prozac where large doses can be taken every few days instead of smaller doses daily. So I thought I would play with it. A few hours after dosing the 80mg, I became agitated, withdrawn, numb, and even more depressed. I spent the rest of the day curled up on a couch totally withdrawn. It was only then that I recognized the anxiety created by Prozac. I had read in literature about the common side effects of anxiety with Prozac, but I figured I must be immune because it didn't seem to have any side effects at all...other than lousy sleep quality. But after that 80mg, I came to know the negative side effects, and realized I had them all along...just more subtle at lower doses. I thought it was just me. But it wasn't. It was the drug.
>
> Since then I have experimented more, and discovered that 5mg is helpful...better than none at all. At 10mg I think I'm on the borderline where that anxiety stuff starts to kick in. So for me, 5mg to 10mg a day is about the limit. More is not always better.
>
> Anyway, like I mentioned earlier, stopping or lowering Prozac abruptly is no problem, if you want to try experimenting with doses. You might find 20mg every other day, or once every three days, is better than any dose taken on a daily basis. Even if you skip a day or two, it's still in your system doing its job. It takes 9 days to be half gone. But of course, the possibility always exists that you may need a higher dose taken daily. In that case, another med to reduce the anxiety side effects would be warranted. My favorite for such a remedy is 2.5mg to 5mg Zyprexa. Not the benzos or anticonvulsants. But as we discussed earlier, one thing at a time...so we know what each modification's results are. Don't want to confuse things too much. I'm wishing you the best. JohnLHey John ---
I took 100 mg. provigil and 30 mg prozac today and guess what? I fell asleep!!! Of course I didn't have the anxiety i had yesterday on 200 mg. , but I certainly did not feel motivated to much of anything. So, I guess I need More than 100 provigil, and I defin tly will cut back my prozac to 20 mg. ,,but in the meantime, since the half life of prozac is so long, how would you dose it for the next few days? Would you skip a day of prozac and increase provigil tomorrow, - I guess my ? is, how would you ramp up on the provigil and decrease prozac??? Thanks again. elise
Posted by JohnL on April 16, 2000, at 1:08:03
In reply to Re: Info on my new wonderdrug....(to JohnL), posted by Ant-Rock on April 15, 2000, at 15:06:10
> Hi John, First of all, way to go with finding your new med. I'm sure you've waited a long time to feel this well and you deserve this breakthrough. I'm truly happy for you. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a lot from you and the many others here.
> I do have a question,
> would combining adrafanil & Ritalin be a bad idea. I only take 10mg/day ritalin and it hasn't hepled me with my biggest problem which is anhedonia. I feel much the same way you described, and reading about your success has peaked my interest in this med. I see my p-doc this week and had planned on asking to increase the ritalin, but now maybe adding adrafanil instead of increasing would be a better idea. Any suggestions?
>
> AnthonyAnthony,
It would sure be nice if we could ask your question of a qualified physician, but of course Adrafinil is hardly known outside of Europe. My best judgement is that Ritalin and Adrafinil could be combined. Of course it would be highly experimental. But then, a lot of what is done in psychiatry is. A lot of what we know about established popular drugs was derived from experimentation and accidental discovery. For example, Zyprexa as a mood stabilizer and/or an antidepressant, not just an antipsychotic.Ritalin and Adrafinil work in different ways. They work in such a way that there would be no duplication of mechanisms or opposition of mechanisms. I see no reason it couldn't be tried. Adrafinil though requires time. Unlike Ritalin--which, as you know, kicks in quickly--Adrafinil takes days to months to fully work. Three weeks is a minimum. I still have some Ritalin leftover and was pondering the same thing. I'm certainly doing better than in years, but admittedly I'm not quite 100%. So continued tweeking and experimentation is not unlikely. Ritalin+Adrafinil sounds fine to me. That's my best guess. JohnL
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 16, 2000, at 1:25:20
In reply to Re: Adrafinil + Ritalin...Anthony, posted by JohnL on April 16, 2000, at 1:08:03
> Adrafinil takes days to months to fully work. Three weeks is a minimum. I still have some Ritalin leftover and was pondering the same thing. I'm certainly doing better than in years, but admittedly I'm not quite 100%. So continued tweeking and experimentation is not unlikely.
I know how hard it is to go even one more hour feeling less than 100% when you think there is something in your magic bag of tricks that might make you feel even better. Patience can be a difficult task to suffer. Please be careful.
- Scott
Posted by allisonm on April 16, 2000, at 20:21:08
In reply to Re: Adrafinil + Ritalin...Anthony...JohnL, posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 16, 2000, at 1:25:20
JohnL,
Weren't you taking Remeron at one time? Are you still?
Posted by allisonm on April 16, 2000, at 20:30:18
In reply to Question for JohnL, posted by allisonm on April 16, 2000, at 20:21:08
JohnL,
Sorry, I didn't see your previous thread. 7.5mg.
Tnx.
Posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 10:45:26
In reply to RE: DC, posted by AndrewB on April 17, 2000, at 7:47:39
Andrew:
I have a couple of questions for you, please:
You might remember that I tried Reboxetine thru my Pdoc here in the US, and it didn't work for me. That, however, doesn't mean that Adrafinil won't. I'm now taking Wellbutrin with Aricept and Celexa. It's working rather well, (the Aricept is working very well to counteract the memory and concentration side effects) but the Celexa is something I might want to replace at some point. It's still bothering my stomach after four weeks, and I'm concerned about weight gain.
Do you know if Adrafinil can be mixed with Wellbutrin?
Second question: what is anhedonia?
Thanks, Andrew.
Laurie (Leighwit)
Posted by AndrewB on April 17, 2000, at 12:20:23
In reply to Re: RE: DC, posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 10:45:26
Laurie,
Anhedonia; inability to experience pleasure. For example, you could barely stay awake through the fireworks display and you can't remember what you ate at the gourmet restaurant the night before.
Wellbutrin and adrafinil. I can only guess. It sounds like it would be too stimulating. I believe the mechanics of wellbutrin's action are poorly understood, but to me it seems like wellbutrin mainly enhances norandregenic transmission, as does adrafinil.
AndrewB
Posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 13:21:34
In reply to Re: Laurie, posted by AndrewB on April 17, 2000, at 12:20:23
Thanks, Andrew. I hadn't heard the word before, but I suffer from anhedonia as a significant aspect of depression. Wellbutrin is the only drug I've taken which treats that particular symptom to some extent. Perhaps, however, I'm confusing productivity with an ability to experience pleasure. I can function when I take Wellbutrin. I do things. But I don't think pleasure is really something I experience any more. Hadn't really thought about it.
The Celexa that I take at night as of a few weeks ago merely takes the edge off the Wellbutrin (i.e, I feel less agitated.) It doesn't elevate my mood, nor do any of the other SSRIs.
On the other hand, I guess I'm feeling some pleasure in that I have some energy and can think clearly, which is a huge relief, for which I am grateful.
Listening to the discussions about Adrafinil and Provigil bringing about some euphoria makes me want for more.
It's a thin line to cross: feeling "functional" and wanting the security that comes from that — or taking a jump in the hopes of feeling even better.
A dilemma that affects us all nearly every day I suppose....
Laurie (Leighwit)
Posted by Andrewb on April 17, 2000, at 14:08:23
In reply to Re: Laurie, posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 13:21:34
Laurie,
I'm kind of like you. Serzone (an SSRI) and wellbutrin never helped my mood. Wellbutrin made me more alert. Serzone took the edge off things. Some people, sometimes have to look farther afield for an AD that works. I warn you though, if you are going to try unconventional ADs, make sure you use sound judgement. Don't try something on the experience of one person, me or anyone else. Do your research, find out all you can about the prospective med. I suggest that for most people this means gathering up all the printed material you can find on the med., including posts off this board, and presenting the info. to your psychiatrist for review.
AndrewB
Posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 14:29:43
In reply to Re: Laurie, posted by Andrewb on April 17, 2000, at 14:08:23
Absolutely sound advice, Andrew. I am fortunate that I have a Pdoc who is willing to think "outside of the box" yet thoroughly researches any suggestions I might bring to her. She consulted with a psychopharmacologist at a teaching hospital here in the Chicago area before agreeing to help me acquire and try Reboxetine. She went to quite a bit of trouble actually. I wish it had been the panacea I'd hoped for. I think I'll stick with my WB/Aricept/Celexa cocktail for awhile. If I experience any worsening of symptoms, though, I think I'll talk to her about Adrafinil.
Without this and another ng I read frequently, I wouldn't have known that drugs such as Reboxetine, or Adrafinil even existed. In fact, I learned about Aricept from reading newsgroups, which is now an important part of my treatment. It puts different medications and topics on my list for further research and potential discussion with my Pdoc. By no means, though, would I try new drugs without back-up research and professional expertise.
Great advice, Andrew.
Laurie
Posted by DC on April 17, 2000, at 18:23:42
In reply to RE: DC, posted by AndrewB on April 17, 2000, at 7:47:39
Andrew,
Wow, thanks for all the great information. I'm glad the reboxetine and amisulpride are helping you. I was very interested to read your hyphothesis about subnormal function of D2 receptor. I also think it has something to do with dopamine. The MAOI's all affect dopamine;and lots of time they work better than the ssris. But I also think social anxiety has something to do with gaba receptors. Klonipan is often helpful and so it neurontin. 100mg three times a day might be a good starting dose, but you might need to get up to 300-400mg 3-4/day. The company that makes neurontin is now testing a new drug called pregabalin for anxiety and bipolar disorder. Basically, it's a slightly modified version of neurontin. Right now they conducting a study at Yale Anxiety Disorders Clinic, trying Pregabalin for social phobia. I was going to do it, but decided not because of the restriction on all other meds. I wonder if this drug might work even better for me than neurontin. I'll call the clinic and ask the guy if it seems to be helping people. (But he is so uptight he will probably refuse to say anything).
Good luck, DC
Posted by Fred Potter on April 18, 2000, at 17:03:20
In reply to Re: Laurie, posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 13:21:34
I find anhedonia a deeply upsetting part of depression. Things you were passionate about are meaningless, and yet you know there's someone inside you who is still passionate about them but can't connect.
As for euphoria, I reckon we all deserve some of that
Fred
Posted by michael on April 18, 2000, at 19:23:22
In reply to Info on my new wonderdrug....Adrafinil., posted by JohnL on April 14, 2000, at 4:26:06
> I can't seem to access my previous post on Adrafinil and Amisulpride. To make a long story short, Adrafinil has been wonderful at treating my longstanding stubborn anhedonia. Finally something that works! Yes!!
>
> It's hard to find much information on Adrafinil. But the stuff I did find--posted below--I can say from personal experience is completely true. Everything this literature says about Adrafinil is absolutely true and accurate. The drug is everything the literature says it is. What a wonderful medication! Adrafinil...SALUTE!!!
>
>
> ADRAFINIL: What is; (a.k.a. Olmifon) (Description & information below)
> NOTE:not to be confused with "Anafranil (a.k.a. clomipramine)" the Antidepressant.
>
> Adrafinil provides alertness in most without the feeling often felt with stimulants that usually are prescribed for a person with
> narcolepsy. Such as amphetamines etc. Also the possibility of tolerance is low with its continued use. There is however a
> need for certain Liver function tests
> on a regular basis with its continued use. Normally the same types of required testing as with the medication " cylert " which is
> commonly prescribed in the USA. It is also used in certain parts europe as a "antidepressant". It is the combination of
> Adrafinil's releasing stimulantive arousal effect(s), and its antidepressant effects that some doctors in europe recommend
> Adrafinil over its newer form of Modafinil. There have been studies done in the United States "measuring depression in
> individuals with sleep disorders",. In one study it was suggested that the
> "rate of narcolepsy and depression is estimated to be between 30-52%".
>
>
> ADRAFINIL (Olmifon)
>
> Rapidly restores vigilance and alertness in older people and the physically and mentally tired. Has a powerful
> antidepressant action far superior to that of fluoxetine (Prozac) and clomipramine (Anafranil) and is without any serious
> side effects. Adrafinil restores your powers of concentration, memory and intellectual function. When administered to
> older people who have lost interest in life, adrafinil makes them want to take part in life again and they find that they
> have renewed energy and vigor. Adrafinil may be correctly described as an anti-aging drug because it directly combats
> degeneration in the part of the brain that allows you to take pleasure in life. Elderly people very often have disturbed
> sleep patterns and take many naps during the day. Adrafinil restores a youthful sleep/wake cycle of full alertness in the
> daytime and deep restorative sleep at night. After several weeks of treatment with Adrafinil daytime sleepiness
> disappears, interest in intellectual activity is restored and depression lifts. It is very important to note that this improved
> quality of alertness is NOT accompanied with mental excitation and insomnia as occurs with amphetamine or caffeine.
> The correct dosage is 300 to 600 mg per day. The dosage can be adjusted according to response. Remember it takes
> three weeks for all the effects of Adrafinil to become apparent. Do not use Adrafinil if you have any type of kidney or liver
> problem or if you suffer from epilepsy.
>
> Where all other drugs have failed, Adrafinil has quickly become the star my show. I can't say enough good about it. JohnLHey John,
Just a couple questions - you mention 300mg - 600mg for dosage, while the package insert thta I got says 600 - 1200. I was just curious of the source for the dosage that you mentioned?
I was also wondering how long it was before you "noticed" anything that you would attribute to the adrafinil? Couple of days, couple of weeks? And if you could label it, would you call it energy? "hedonia"? Ability to concentrate/focus?
And one last dosage question - did you mention that it did affect your sleep for the first few days? And if that's correct, is it fair to say that you haven't had any issues with that subsequently, as long as you don't take any after early afternoon?
Thanks for any info you can provide, and sorry if I'm re-asking question you've already addressed.
michael
Posted by DC on April 18, 2000, at 17:07:59
In reply to Re: Laurie, posted by Leighwit on April 17, 2000, at 13:21:34
Reading over the posts here, I am getting enthusiastic about these three new drugs.
1. Is provigal the same thing as modafinal, and why is it only being used for narcrolepsy? If it has AD effects?2. Are these three drugs all in the same class? Are they all stimulant type drugs?
3. Which one do you think would be most likely to help someone with a combination of anhedonia, inattentive add, and social phobia?
I'm sorry I can only ask questions at this point. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Dwight
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